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November 18, 2017, 09:55:21 am
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Author Topic: SQ 779 / Teacher pay  (Read 2971 times)
heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2016, 01:52:58 pm »

I am a reluctant vote yes. I donít like sales tax, itís regressive and hurts poor people. I would rather income tax and property tax pay for schools.

That said, I have a  child in school right now, my son is a sophomore and things are really bad right now. I want schools to improve for him before he graduates and I really donít see any changes in the near future here without this tax. Republicans have pushed this state to the brink over the last 10 years and still the public laps up their rhetoric. The very poor people that this tax will hurt are mostly Trump voters.

99% of Trump bumper stickers are on aging beater cars and pickups with dents and a couple of different paint colors. Iíve seen exactly one Trump sticker on a nice car, a new Audi on Sunday with the larger ďProud DeplorableĒ sticker larger than the Trump sticker, so you know right where his head is.

I know that over time the legislature will steal these funds and fund even more tax breaks for the rich. Iím certainly not rich but I do ok and those very tax breaks will mean more money in my pocket than those sales taxes will take.

So selfishly, I will vote yes, for my son mostly and as an added benefit I get a slightly lower taxes. And I get to stick it to dumb Trump voters. I guess in this case itís a win/win/win.



Sadly, the sales tax wouldn't kick in fast enough to help your kid no matter what.  And since for every $100 million in revenue the sales tax brings in the legislature is going to divert $110 million from general fund education moneys to something else, this is gonna actually make the situation worse.   Just based on past experience for the last 40 to 50 years or so.

And no, it won't - tax breaks give you more money than sales tax.  You would need to make a million a year to come out on that deal.  The cut is 1/4%. And doesn't affect you except for all annual income above about $55,000.  So if you make $100,000 a year, that extra 1/4% on $45,000 is saving you a couple hundred bucks.  Or about $20,000 in retail spending equivalent.  Well, if ya don't spend more than about $20k a year retail, you will be good....  I want to pay that extra 1/4%, and I want Toby Keith to have to pay it too!!  He certainly gets a whole lot more back from all the lower income people in this state who buy his pitiful excuse for entertainment...!!

The sales tax is 1% - on everything you buy!!


You will have to move to Missouri or Arkansas to help him.  And if you move the family to Joplin area or Fayetteville, you can come back and stay in Tulsa area during the week and go home on weekends to see the family.  It's only about 2 1/2 years...anyone can handle that!!  If ya care about your kids enough....

Get a decent used travel trailer and just put it in an RV park and rent by the month.  Excellent solution.  At the end of the 2 1/2 year sentence, you can move the family back if you want...or get a better job in a different state...!


Luckily for the kids future, all my kids and grand kids have bailed on Oklahoma except for the last 2.  One of those is being raised by a mother who is pretty amazing...well, they both are, but one gets a lot of additional after school attention!  A LOT!!  He will do well in spite of the Oklahoma schools!!  And the other is in kindergarten and I have told them they are gonna have to move - Joplin or Fayetteville are both good options...both parents are in medical field so can easily get jobs.

Bottom line - we will continue to see the Republicontin's elected here.  Trump polls 60% if that gives you any hints/indications.  And education will continue to be last on their priority list - we will remain behind Mississippi for the foreseeable future.  And we don't even need to talk about all the other infrastructure items - destruction of public education is enough.


This needs repeating;

"When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.Ē    - Garrison Keillor
« Last Edit: October 25, 2016, 01:55:36 pm by heironymouspasparagus » Logged

ďWhen you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.Ē    - Garrison Keillor

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erfalf
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« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2016, 02:08:10 pm »

In reality nothing will improve even if passed immediately. The same teachers that already work there will get raises. Do you think things will improve due to that? Maybe in the long term (maybe).
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swake
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« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2016, 02:21:38 pm »

In reality nothing will improve even if passed immediately. The same teachers that already work there will get raises. Do you think things will improve due to that? Maybe in the long term (maybe).

It will encourage teachers to stay and lead to the ability for schools to hire for empty positions.

For example, Glenpool schools do not offer foreign languages anymore. Not even Spanish. They lost their last Spanish teacher last year and have been unable to find a new one. They have classes in Creek that I think are partially funded by the tribe, but no foreign languages at all. Most all good colleges require at least two years of a foreign language to be admitted so every student at GPS is sealed off from good colleges. All of them.

Glenpool isn't some tiny school in western Oklahoma with graduating classes of 40 students. This is a good sized suburban school district. 
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erfalf
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« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2016, 02:29:51 pm »

All I meant was in the immediate term (in order for your kid to get some benefit).

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swake
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« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2016, 02:50:04 pm »

All I meant was in the immediate term (in order for your kid to get some benefit).



Why would it not impact next year's budget that is already predicted to have another huge hole in it?
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Conan71
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« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2016, 03:11:35 pm »

Why would it not impact next year's budget that is already predicted to have another huge hole in it?

I have yet to find one study which shows an increase in teacher pay directly correlates to a childís academic success.  I honestly cannot see any way there is any major benefit to your son with 2 1/2 years left in high school if this bill passes.

In the 10 years Iíve followed your posts here, Iíve come to detect you and your wife are very devoted parents.  That right there is the biggest precursor of a childís academic success.

Where funding has doubled in very troubled previously under-funded districts, the results are not dramatically different:

http://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2016/04/25/468157856/can-more-money-fix-americas-schools

The irony of a 1% sales tax hike is even with a $5000 raise, the regressiveness of it will even hit those it intends to support.
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Conan71
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« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2016, 03:13:41 pm »

THEY have to think about their phoney baloney jobs and pay schedules.



Kudos!  Since we have drifted this far, might as well go full Blazing Saddles!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTmfwklFM-M
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swake
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« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2016, 03:21:03 pm »

I have yet to find one study which shows an increase in teacher pay directly correlates to a childís academic success.  I honestly cannot see any way there is any major benefit to your son with 2 1/2 years left in high school if this bill passes.

In the 10 years Iíve followed your posts here, Iíve come to detect you and your wife are very devoted parents.  That right there is the biggest precursor of a childís academic success.

Where funding has doubled in very troubled previously under-funded districts, the results are not dramatically different:

http://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2016/04/25/468157856/can-more-money-fix-americas-schools

The irony of a 1% sales tax hike is even with a $5000 raise, the regressiveness of it will even hit those it intends to support.

The current teacher pay is so low that Oklahoma schools are unable to hire qualified teachers. Many positions go unfilled. See my post about Glenpool.

As for my son, if he would remember to do his homework we would be golden. It's a work in progress. Where he's personally impacted is by class size. 35+ in high school for core classes. You know, the ones that really matter.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2016, 04:38:38 pm »

I have yet to find one study which shows an increase in teacher pay directly correlates to a childís academic success.  I honestly cannot see any way there is any major benefit to your son with 2 1/2 years left in high school if this bill passes.

In the 10 years Iíve followed your posts here, Iíve come to detect you and your wife are very devoted parents.  That right there is the biggest precursor of a childís academic success.

Where funding has doubled in very troubled previously under-funded districts, the results are not dramatically different:

http://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2016/04/25/468157856/can-more-money-fix-americas-schools

The irony of a 1% sales tax hike is even with a $5000 raise, the regressiveness of it will even hit those it intends to support.


The increase in pay is an indirect benefit - we stop losing teachers, can fill the positions open now, leading to smaller class sizes which has repeatedly been shown to benefit a child's academic success. 

As for NPR reference, the one thing that made a huge difference to low income and inner city children - mostly black kids - was busing that happened in the 70's and 80's.  For 17 years there was forced busing that dramatically and absolutely without doubt showed dramatic improvements in academic performance of kids who were shipped around.  Also from an NPR report a couple of weeks ago.  Then it was stopped.

The biggest, most likely direct cause was access to better schools.  Facilities, teachers, equipment, supplies, etc.  All things being equal - as has been proven beyond all doubt - all kids get a boost and much better outcomes.   The big problem we have - and I mentioned this in a post a couple weeks ago about one of the guys I work with in one office moving to better school system neighborhood - is the inequality we have between schools and systems.  Even in the same district!  That is a place where more money has been shown to make a big difference.

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ďWhen you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.Ē    - Garrison Keillor

Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
AquaMan
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« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2016, 05:00:07 pm »

I like to get that line in as often and as many places as I can. Its such a truism. Grin
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onward...through the fog
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« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2016, 06:26:49 pm »

And please, people:  quit holding your breath over the legislature ever dropping sales tax on food and clothing.  It will never happen in our lifetime.

I have no delusions about it ever happening but it would make the sales tax less regressive.
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Red Arrow
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« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2016, 06:31:17 pm »

However, if you do vote to support what will likely be a two year at most tax increase dedicated to education,

How long have you lived in Oklahoma?
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Conan71
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« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2016, 07:18:42 pm »

Here's an interesting dichotomy:

I left a public school for a private school (Casica Hall) prior to my sophomore year.  A few teachers confided that CH's pay was a year or two behind TPS.  One had recently moved over from Nathan Hale to Cascia.  All said the reason they were willing to work for less was because the working conditions were so much better for a teacher.  Kid's parents were making a significant investment in their child's education, they took an interest in making sure their child got the most out of that education.

We assume the only reason positions aren't being filled is due to pay issues.  The job situation in Oklahoma these days is not such that most people with a bachelor degree have carte blanche for a $40-$50K job.  Keep in mind, most teachers work on average about 10 months out of the year.

Could it be that a lack of technology or adequate supplies for students along with parental apathy creates an undesireable working environment?  If funding were directed toward things that matter like the latest learning technology and training and making sure teachers were not left to purchase classroom supplies out of their own pocket  might we see better outcomes and better instruction with less turn-over?

Certainly, being able to pay enough for the best talent is important.  Blanket raises for everyone from the best talent to the most jaded teacher counting down their days until they retire is not a policy which ensures success.

I've had some sort of merit-based pay my entire adult working career.  The harder I work and the more dedicated I am to what I do, I'm rewarded for it.  I've never been a production line guy or done an occupation that my check never changes regardless of performance since I was 20 or so. 

If I were a teacher, I don't understand the motivation a sudden $5000 per year raise would give me to be a better teacher when I still don't have what I need to teach the kids and their parents still don't give a sh!t because they are being sent to me to basically keep them out of trouble for 6 hours a day.  I'd be less likely to look to move to Arkansas or Texas, but I honestly don't know how that raise would change the way I reach out to the kids I taught with all else remaining the same.
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AquaMan
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« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2016, 07:21:28 pm »

Red, I thought about that phrase before writing it. Actually, my thought process is that it would have to be the most attractive low hanging fruit an incoming politician could identify. An onerous regressive tax that needed to be cut since the new legislators have found the voters will support education and thus found another more just way to fund that education. After all, 49 other states found a way to do so. So, they can both fund education and cut taxes at the same time. A politicians wet dream.
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Red Arrow
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« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2016, 07:26:41 pm »

Red, I thought about that phrase before writing it. Actually, my thought process is that it would have to be the most attractive low hanging fruit an incoming politician could identify. An onerous regressive tax that needed to be cut since the new legislators have found the voters will support education and thus found another more just way to fund that education. After all, 49 other states found a way to do so. So, they can both fund education and cut taxes at the same time. A politicians wet dream.

Even if the school sales tax was to be eliminated, it would be continued in another iteration since continuing it would not be a tax increase.
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