Moratorium: No more sidewalk cafes

[davideinstein]

If this is a private commercial use of a public property, then to be consistent, the city needs to insist on $1-5 million insurance policies naming them as additional insureds. That is pretty common from my experience with the city and the county. I'm also pretty sure that the commercial insurance these restaurants and retail businesses use is based on their buildings, not on the city sidewalks which are exposed to greater risk.

Yeah, we totally need a million dollar insurance policy for a couple of people drinking a latte at Mods.

Can you people stop making Tulsa regressive? Please?

[Breadburner]

Yeah, we totally need a million dollar insurance policy for a couple of people drinking a latte at Mods.

Can you people stop making Tulsa regressive? Please?

You better have when a car runs up on the sidewalk and wipes out the people sitting in the spot you provided.....

[BKDotCom]

You better have when a car runs up on the sidewalk and wipes out the people sitting in the spot you provided.....

what if the car plows into the restaurant and wipes out the people sitting inside? 
what if the guy gets out of his car, goes inside, and kills everyone sitting at the round tables because tables are meant to be square?

I don't see how the restaurant is responsible for either.

[Red Arrow]

I need to provide the Tulsa Airport Authority with $1 million insurance on my private use only hangar at the Jones/Riverside airport in case someone breaks into my hangar and gets hurt.  They could sue the Airport Authority in addition to me.  At least that was the reason given.  I own the structure but lease the ground.

Restaurants can do the same for public use sidewalks.  It's part of dealing with the government.  I don't think it's right but that's the way it is.  You can probably name the City as a co-insured on an existing policy. (Not sure of the exact words but that's the essence of it.)

[AquaMan]

And a million is getting to be passe'. The state requires $5 million just to drive a passenger bus on state roads. You ever priced a million dollar policy with the city/county as additional insured? It is costly.

David, not saying I like the idea, but it is just reality. When you use public property to make private profit, you expose your company and all the taxpayers to liability. If someone opens their car door into my table on a sidewalk and hot latte sprays on me, you can be sure I'll sue everyone involved. That's what lawyers do. And if your insurance company didn't know you served on that sidewalk and didn't build it into your policy? You pay personally for that oversight. They won't.

Why should downtown businesses get a free pass because we're all so excited to see development there? Sound fair to the shoe shine guy who has to pay a $1million dollar policy to shine shoes at the airport? He could do it downtown and skip?

[AquaMan]

what if the car plows into the restaurant and wipes out the people sitting inside? 
what if the guy gets out of his car, goes inside, and kills everyone sitting at the round tables because tables are meant to be square?

I don't see how the restaurant is responsible for either.

Your insurance covers in those examples if you have typical commercial policy. You are responsible for actions of others on your property. Even when they tripped on their own feet, even when a crazy shoots up your place (why didn't you have security?) even when it doesn't seem fair, you will be sued and you must defend.

[davideinstein]

The city is atrocious to deal with. They told us we couldn't have patio furniture on our own property at one store and now we will have to take down a sidewalk sign at another store now. It's stupid, impractical and too much bureaucracy. Go fight homelessness, that's the real issue. Not a damn cafe table. Ticks me off.

[davideinstein]

Are they going to tell us we have to put away our bike rack too? Even though they can't replace the stolen one the city had. It's no different than a sidewalk sign. Let's just make everything not function, fine everything we possibly can and hopefully a new Pokemon Go will be released every year so people walk around after 5pm. Wait, that's public property too. Should we fine Pokemon Go for using public domain too?

[AquaMan]

A recent lawsuit has been filed because the company designated someone's backyard as a "Gymnasium". Yes, there will be more regulations and lawsuits over using other peoples private property for commercial gain and the public's property for private gain.

It is always difficult to work with government entities because they have to deal with all the public interests, not just your owners and customers.

Sounds to me like they are trying to define just how those public areas can best be used fairly by private interests with the least controversy. That is better than making judgements on a case by case basis. Isn't it?

[Breadburner]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2785113/Watch-horrific-moment-car-ploughs-Florida-sidewalk-caf-packed-diners.html

[heironymouspasparagus]

Your insurance covers in those examples if you have typical commercial policy. You are responsible for actions of others on your property. Even when they tripped on their own feet, even when a crazy shoots up your place (why didn't you have security?) even when it doesn't seem fair, you will be sued and you must defend.

This is another reason ya needs insurance....

https://video-dft4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t43.1792-2/13955500_1134974146588848_259291187_n.mp4?efg=eyJybHIiOjE1MDAsInJsYSI6MTAyNCwidmVuY29kZV90YWciOiJzdmVfaGQifQ%3D%3D&rl=1500&vabr=354&oh=5dceca90c15dfcd4dcd1385f33de6e36&oe=57AE1B0A


Was in a 5 Guys in Moore a few years ago, not long after it opened, and a woman decided to drive through the front window while we were sitting there.  The bags of potatoes stopped her about 6 ft from the table.  Lots of excitement that day!! 

[Conan71]

They put Paul Zachary in front of the camera for last night’s story.  He said the problem is not just patio furniture, they are also looking into making sure in the future improvements like handicap ramps are not being constructed on public ROW but as a part of the private structure.

David- I have a funny feeling if street vendors started setting up in front of your location in downtown and their activities made access to your business more difficult, you’d suddenly have a problem with street vendors.

[cannon_fodder]

Problem: no one is asking for permission before they use public space.

Solution: Stop granting permission for people to use public space.

Now ask yourself, does the solution do anything to solve the problem? I get that they don't want to issue permits/licenses that then conflict with the advice on walkability, so issue 180 day permits or some such thing. But the above illustrates the issue here - if the city just stops granting permission, now there's no point in even asking.

The issue needs to be addressed in a coherent manner. So good for them. But this temporary "no more" thing doesn't seem to make much sense.
- - -

Re the liability issue, it would be difficult for the City to face significant liability from public use of a sidewalk. Start with the intervening causes that were given above (person driving their car onto the sidewalk) and end with the liability cap of $175k for governmental torts. Can someone sue them? Sure, but suing the City is often a poor strategic decision. Making the City an additional insured on a reasonable premises liability policy (required for almost any occupancy lease anyway) should be basically nothing.

You are responsible for actions of others on your property. Even when they tripped on their own feet, even when a crazy shoots up your place (why didn't you have security?) even when it doesn't seem fair, you will be sued and you must defend.

You are not responsible for the actions of others on your property. You do have certain duties to trespassers (not to do anything likely to hurt them or entice them to be injured), to guests (to warn of known dangers), and to people you invite onto your property to do business (to keep your business in a reasonably safe condition and warn of known dangers). Oklahoma Uniform Jury Instruction 11.10 defines the duty for business invitees clearly:

It is the duty of the [owner/occupant] to use ordinary care to keep [his/her/its] premises in a reasonably safe condition for the use of [his/her/its] invitees. It is the duty of the [owner/occupant] either to remove or warn the invitee of any hidden danger on the premises that the [owner/occupant] either actually knows about, or that [he/she/it] should know about in the exercise of reasonable care, or that was created by [him/her/it] [or any of [his/her/its] employees who were acting within the scope of their employment]. This duty extends to all portions of the premises to which an invitee may reasonably be expected to go.

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=74086

Could you be sued even though someone trips over their own feet? Sure. You can be sued for anything by anyone. I can sue you because you sneezed and I believe it makes you possessed by the devil and therefore responsible for damage to my bike yesterday. Of course, that doesn't make it so. And with a good judge, you would be tossed out of Court and sanctioned.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Could you be sued even though someone trips over their own feet? Sure. You can be sued for anything by anyone. I can sue you because you sneezed and I believe it makes you possessed by the devil and therefore responsible for damage to my bike yesterday. Of course, that doesn't make it so. And with a good judge, you would be tossed out of Court and sanctioned.

I had a possessed person sneeze and damage my bike!   Can you represent me...?


JK...

[AquaMan]

CF, the point is, people sue when they think you: A. Have insurance or means B. Are culpable C. Are arrogant or D. its their means of livelihood.

Therefore, whether they are nuisance or real, you must insure against them and be prepared to pay unless you are a lawyer, have family lawyers or keep one on retainer.

So, in effect you are responsible as a businessman to expect accidents on your property and to be possibly liable for them. You see this as legal jargon, the reality is people pay for other peoples stupid behaviors pretty routinely just to keep the law suits at bay. There have been many payouts at public events, for instance Oktoberfest, where drunks trip over things.

I also wonder why, if the city has little liability (175K) they require millions in additional insured status? Yes, from experience, it is a difficult decision to sue them and returns in time and money small, but I sure wished I had done so. You make no friends with them either way. My advice to entrepreneurs who ask me is yes, be prepared to sue any parties, including govt., who mistreat you. But get a lawyer from out of the region.