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Gaspar
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« Reply #90 on: July 12, 2016, 06:56:39 am »

The rate at which whites are killed by cops in this country is astounding. Dozens of times worse than other developed countries.

And the rate that blacks are killed by cops is double that of whites.

And the rates Native Americans and the mentally ill are killed is even worse then blacks.

Put this in perspective. Last year in Oklahoma 28 people were killed by cops. 12 of them were black, when blacks are less than 10% of the population.

Oklahoma has 4 million people. Germany has 80 million people, 20x the population of Oklahoma and in the last five years German cops have killed 31 people. Oklahoma's cop kill rate is 80 times that of Germany, and our kill rate of blacks is 10 times higher than the overall population. 800 times higher than Germany. 800 Times!!!.

We have a very serious problem and race is an important factor, but even that aside, something is very, very wrong with how police act in this country.

The problem exists, however one must also take into consideration the crime ratios.  Black Americans are about 12% of the population nationwide but that small population continues to represent a larger ratio of violent crime.  Consider table 5. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fdluc09.pdf  1/8th of the population is committing nearly half of all violent crime. You will also notice the study found 258 black victims of police shootings in 2015; in 188 of those cases, the victim was armed with a deadly weapon at the time of the shooting.

Your statement:
Quote
And the rate that blacks are killed by cops is double that of whites.
Is incorrect.
Cops killed nearly twice as many whites as blacks in 2015. According to data compiled by The Washington Post, 50 percent of the victims of fatal police shootings were white, while 26 percent were black. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings/  The 'ratio' of blacks killed by cops is indeed about double, but the language is important.  This issue is being blurred politically because people are not using accurate language.

Your statement:
Quote
And the rates Native Americans and the mentally ill are killed is even worse then blacks.
Cannot be validated with existing data.

We do indeed have a serious problem.  We have social structures that have grown to excuse, ignore, and in many cases admire thugism, and criminal activity as a form of status and survival. So much so, that a culture has developed.  Music, language, and dress has evolved to elevate such activities as positive symbols.  Within that incubator, children are taught that police are their enemy, because they see their friends and family arrested or worse.  As a result, police become habituated to an expectation of violence when they are in those communities.  They feel a need to keep their guard up.  It's a vicious circle.

Policing this won't fix it. Lectures from politicians won't fix it. Gun laws have nothing to do with it. Ignoring the problem and blaming the police will just make it worse.
The solution will need to come from within the community. The social illness will need to be diagnosed. The culture will need to change.  Until that happens, it will continue.
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« Reply #91 on: July 12, 2016, 07:20:21 am »

Setting aside the race issues, the Dallas mass shooting shed interesting light on the gun debate.

A) We know know what happens when a lone wolf with an assault style weapon attacks a well armed and well trained crowd. He shoots lots of them and they have to resorts to explosive robots to stop him.

When army combat units are ambushed they suffer disproportional casualties. That's the entire point of an ambush. Particularly when the abushor/murderer can shoot with little disregard for other consequences and the responders are worried about their safety and that of others (ie., can't randomly shoot at anything they think is a threat).  It is anecdotal evidence and/or an illustration that a more armed society is not necessarily a safer society.

B) It showed the problems with open carry. Those who were open carrying were not helpful in the crisis. They got in the way as police had to investigate reports of multiple gunman, find random people with guns and detain/question them, or as it mislead their investigation. Not one open carry person benefited the situation.

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« Reply #92 on: July 12, 2016, 07:40:37 am »

Setting aside the race issues, the Dallas mass shooting shed interesting light on the gun debate.

A) We know know what happens when a lone wolf with an assault style weapon attacks a well armed and well trained crowd. He shoots lots of them and they have to resorts to explosive robots to stop him.

When army combat units are ambushed they suffer disproportional casualties. That's the entire point of an ambush. Particularly when the abushor/murderer can shoot with little disregard for other consequences and the responders are worried about their safety and that of others (ie., can't randomly shoot at anything they think is a threat).  It is anecdotal evidence and/or an illustration that a more armed society is not necessarily a safer society.

B) It showed the problems with open carry. Those who were open carrying were not helpful in the crisis. They got in the way as police had to investigate reports of multiple gunman, find random people with guns and detain/question them, or as it mislead their investigation. Not one open carry person benefited the situation.



All off set by proper training.....
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« Reply #93 on: July 12, 2016, 07:56:24 am »

Setting aside the race issues, the Dallas mass shooting shed interesting light on the gun debate.

A) We know know what happens when a lone wolf with an assault style weapon attacks a well armed and well trained crowd. He shoots lots of them and they have to resorts to explosive robots to stop him.

When army combat units are ambushed they suffer disproportional casualties. That's the entire point of an ambush. Particularly when the abushor/murderer can shoot with little disregard for other consequences and the responders are worried about their safety and that of others (ie., can't randomly shoot at anything they think is a threat).  It is anecdotal evidence and/or an illustration that a more armed society is not necessarily a safer society.

B) It showed the problems with open carry. Those who were open carrying were not helpful in the crisis. They got in the way as police had to investigate reports of multiple gunman, find random people with guns and detain/question them, or as it mislead their investigation. Not one open carry person benefited the situation.


Perhaps consider that the Dallas situation is the anecdotal evidence. How often does that really happen?
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« Reply #94 on: July 12, 2016, 09:29:16 am »

The problem exists, however one must also take into consideration the crime ratios.  Black Americans are about 12% of the population nationwide but that small population continues to represent a larger ratio of violent crime.  Consider table 5. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fdluc09.pdf  1/8th of the population is committing nearly half of all violent crime. You will also notice the study found 258 black victims of police shootings in 2015; in 188 of those cases, the victim was armed with a deadly weapon at the time of the shooting.

Your statement: Is incorrect.
Cops killed nearly twice as many whites as blacks in 2015. According to data compiled by The Washington Post, 50 percent of the victims of fatal police shootings were white, while 26 percent were black. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings/  The 'ratio' of blacks killed by cops is indeed about double, but the language is important.  This issue is being blurred politically because people are not using accurate language.

Your statement:Cannot be validated with existing data.

We do indeed have a serious problem.  We have social structures that have grown to excuse, ignore, and in many cases admire thugism, and criminal activity as a form of status and survival. So much so, that a culture has developed.  Music, language, and dress has evolved to elevate such activities as positive symbols.  Within that incubator, children are taught that police are their enemy, because they see their friends and family arrested or worse.  As a result, police become habituated to an expectation of violence when they are in those communities.  They feel a need to keep their guard up.  It's a vicious circle.

Policing this won't fix it. Lectures from politicians won't fix it. Gun laws have nothing to do with it. Ignoring the problem and blaming the police will just make it worse.
The solution will need to come from within the community. The social illness will need to be diagnosed. The culture will need to change.  Until that happens, it will continue.


Part of that crime ratio thing goes to how blacks are prosecuted versus others for the same crime - it is not a level field, nor proportionate.  Beyond that, though, your last two paragraphs are dead on right.  One piece is that we have moved as a society to the point where the cop becomes the "catch-all", go to guy for everything from dog catcher to drug counselor to revenue generators to child comforter (teddy bears in cop cars).  We will have to take responsibility as a society to get them back to doing the job they should be doing - law enforcement.  It's gonna cost a little more than we want to spend to do this right.

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/assets/141027_iachr_racial_disparities_aclu_submission_0.pdf


One prime example of how this has gone so far off the rails - traffic stops for "broken tail lights".  That should be covered by the state inspection program!  .....  Exactly - we don't have one.  If it is noted by an officer, then take a picture, send the car owner a note and don't waste all the time/energy, and in this last weeks activities, lives, with a broken tail light!  This is stupid stuff.


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« Reply #95 on: July 12, 2016, 09:34:51 am »

Perhaps consider that the Dallas situation is the anecdotal evidence. How often does that really happen?


This once.  So far.

Unique response to an ongoing condition.  It is symptomatic of some very bad things going on - both sides - not new things, just being brought to light better with current technology.

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« Reply #96 on: July 12, 2016, 09:39:40 am »

I don't think it is, or will be anecdotal or simply related to an American culture gone berserk.

http://gizmodo.com/norways-lovely-memorial-to-the-worst-mass-shooting-in-1536842749

"It's been almost three years since a gunman detonated a bomb in Oslo and then stormed a small summer camp off the coast of Norway, killing 77 people and cementing a record as the worst mass shooting in modern memory. This month, the country revealed plans for a memorial to the tragedy—and it's beautiful.

 
Designed by a Swedish artist named Jonas Dahlberg, the plan is more land art than architecture. On the island of Utøya, where the gunman gained access to a summer camp by dressing in a police uniform and showing a fake ID on July 22, 2011, Dahlberg proposes creating a massive gap of water and air. By slicing a huge section of the island's landmass away, he would create a steep fjord through the site where the shooting occurred—a void that he describes as "a wound or a cut within nature itself."
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« Reply #97 on: July 12, 2016, 09:46:19 am »

I don't think it is, or will be anecdotal or simply related to an American culture gone berserk.

http://gizmodo.com/norways-lovely-memorial-to-the-worst-mass-shooting-in-1536842749

"It's been almost three years since a gunman detonated a bomb in Oslo and then stormed a small summer camp off the coast of Norway, killing 77 people and cementing a record as the worst mass shooting in modern memory. This month, the country revealed plans for a memorial to the tragedy—and it's beautiful.

 
Designed by a Swedish artist named Jonas Dahlberg, the plan is more land art than architecture. On the island of Utøya, where the gunman gained access to a summer camp by dressing in a police uniform and showing a fake ID on July 22, 2011, Dahlberg proposes creating a massive gap of water and air. By slicing a huge section of the island's landmass away, he would create a steep fjord through the site where the shooting occurred—a void that he describes as "a wound or a cut within nature itself."



And that with some "tough" gun laws.   Ya can't stop sh$t from happening - but you don't have to penalize all law abiding people for the crimes of the few.

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« Reply #98 on: July 12, 2016, 11:44:23 am »


Part of that crime ratio thing goes to how blacks are prosecuted versus others for the same crime - it is not a level field, nor proportionate.  Beyond that, though, your last two paragraphs are dead on right.  One piece is that we have moved as a society to the point where the cop becomes the "catch-all", go to guy for everything from dog catcher to drug counselor to revenue generators to child comforter (teddy bears in cop cars).  We will have to take responsibility as a society to get them back to doing the job they should be doing - law enforcement.  It's gonna cost a little more than we want to spend to do this right.

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/assets/141027_iachr_racial_disparities_aclu_submission_0.pdf


One prime example of how this has gone so far off the rails - traffic stops for "broken tail lights".  That should be covered by the state inspection program!  .....  Exactly - we don't have one.  If it is noted by an officer, then take a picture, send the car owner a note and don't waste all the time/energy, and in this last weeks activities, lives, with a broken tail light!  This is stupid stuff.


Spot on!
Unfortunately, it's now a chicken/egg argument.  I agree that police likely target minorities more frequently.  Unfortunately this is logical. Police go to where the crime is.  They are assigned based on statistical information, heat maps, and CI information.  When they fail to focus on these hot-spots, they get blamed for the resulting crime.

I enjoy fishing.  I have learned that I catch more fish when I go where the fish are.  If the fish leave that spot, I don't go there any more.

So, as I said before, this is a community issue. The police do not have the power to change the community (nor should they). Change will need to come from within.

I also agree with you, that police 'powers' have expanded far beyond what they should be.  There is far too much blurred landscape under the guise of 'Public Safety.'   Unfortunately, we live in a culture that attempts to solve problems by demanding legislation, and legislation requires enforcement, and enforcement delivers disproportionate power.

I would hazard to say, that more people have lost their lives (in a sequence of events) after being pulled over for a broken tail light, then have lost their lives in an accident due to a broken tail light.  The power to pull someone over for a broken tail light opens the door to all kinds of other powers.


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« Reply #99 on: July 12, 2016, 11:50:29 am »


One prime example of how this has gone so far off the rails - traffic stops for "broken tail lights".  That should be covered by the state inspection program!  .....  Exactly - we don't have one.  If it is noted by an officer, then take a picture, send the car owner a note and don't waste all the time/energy, and in this last weeks activities, lives, with a broken tail light!  This is stupid stuff.


Often its more of a euphemism than an actual vehicle defect. 
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« Reply #100 on: July 12, 2016, 12:00:33 pm »

Norway has had what, one mass shooting incident ever? While it was tragic and the scale was disgusting - this can happen almost anywhere.

Incidentally, the shooter in Norway used a .223 caliber semi automatic rifle with a 30 round clip he bought from the US on the internet (functionally the same weapon used in most mass shootings in the US). He had a bolt action 308 for 7 years before the massacre, but wanted a lower caliber and high capacity magazine for the mass shooting. He said he needed it to hunt deer (hint if you miss with the first 29, give up).  Turns out he was a paranoid schizophrenic trying to kill Marxists.

How many people would he been able to murder with a 5 shot bolt action rifle? How many American mass-murders wouldn't survive the scrutiny this guy did, or have the patience to plan and wait for months and months? You will never stop every wack-job-murderer, but you can make their job harder.

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« Reply #101 on: July 12, 2016, 12:27:32 pm »

The problem exists, however one must also take into consideration the crime ratios.  Black Americans are about 12% of the population nationwide but that small population continues to represent a larger ratio of violent crime.  Consider table 5. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fdluc09.pdf  1/8th of the population is committing nearly half of all violent crime. You will also notice the study found 258 black victims of police shootings in 2015; in 188 of those cases, the victim was armed with a deadly weapon at the time of the shooting.

Your statement: Is incorrect.
Cops killed nearly twice as many whites as blacks in 2015. According to data compiled by The Washington Post, 50 percent of the victims of fatal police shootings were white, while 26 percent were black. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings/  The 'ratio' of blacks killed by cops is indeed about double, but the language is important.  This issue is being blurred politically because people are not using accurate language.
That’s why I said the rate was double, reading is fundamental!

Overall rate at which Americans are killed by police, 2013 to present: overall 12.19, blacks only 25.2. That would be double, as I stated.

Oklahoma is far worse:
Tulsa overall rate 20.41
Tulsa black rate 49.0

Oklahoma City overall rate 51.22
Oklahoma City black rate 163.3
http://public.tableau.com/profile/ssinyangwe#!/vizhome/PoliceViolenceperPD/RatesperCapita

Also, your study is from large urban counties only which are going to have a far high black population than the overall country. Overall blacks (including black Hispanics) are 12.6% of the total population and make up about 36% of violent crime arrests while whites (including white Hispanics) make up about 60% of violent arrests.  But that’s not the whole story, the rate that blacks are arrested is in itself is an example of bias. As an example black drivers that are pulled over are three times more likely to be searched than a white driver that gets pulled over, but those black drivers that are searched are 30% less likely to have drugs or illegal guns than the few white drivers that were searched. And that doesn't take into account that blacks are pulled over so many more times than whites.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/10/27/police-are-searching-black-drivers-more-often-but-finding-more-illegal-stuff-with-white-drivers-2/

http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=datool&surl=/arrests/index.cfm#



Your statement:Cannot be validated with existing data.


But it can. Natives are the group most likely to be killed by cops:
http://www.cjcj.org/news/8113

And 25% of all people killed by cops are mentally ill:
http://www.npr.org/2015/07/04/420019849/paper-finds-one-quarter-of-those-killed-by-police-are-mentally-ill

We do indeed have a serious problem.  We have social structures that have grown to excuse, ignore, and in many cases admire thugism, and criminal activity as a form of status and survival. So much so, that a culture has developed.  Music, language, and dress has evolved to elevate such activities as positive symbols.  Within that incubator, children are taught that police are their enemy, because they see their friends and family arrested or worse.  As a result, police become habituated to an expectation of violence when they are in those communities.  They feel a need to keep their guard up.  It's a vicious circle.

Policing this won't fix it. Lectures from politicians won't fix it. Gun laws have nothing to do with it. Ignoring the problem and blaming the police will just make it worse.
The solution will need to come from within the community. The social illness will need to be diagnosed. The culture will need to change.  Until that happens, it will continue.
That’s a whole bucket of stereotypes from your own bias that isn’t based in reality. In the real world most black people are middle class and the actual number of violent crimes committed in this country are at the lowest point in several decades. The number of police that are killed in the line of duty are at a 50 year low, and that’s with almost twice the population of the 1960s.  We are becoming a far more peaceful people. So shouldn’t police be getting less violent as violent crime continues to drop and their jobs become more safe, why is that not the case?

http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/year.html?referrer=https://www.google.com/

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
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« Reply #102 on: July 12, 2016, 12:58:08 pm »

Norway has had what, one mass shooting incident ever? While it was tragic and the scale was disgusting - this can happen almost anywhere.

Incidentally, the shooter in Norway used a .223 caliber semi automatic rifle with a 30 round clip he bought from the US on the internet (functionally the same weapon used in most mass shootings in the US). He had a bolt action 308 for 7 years before the massacre, but wanted a lower caliber and high capacity magazine for the mass shooting. He said he needed it to hunt deer (hint if you miss with the first 29, give up).  Turns out he was a paranoid schizophrenic trying to kill Marxists.

How many people would he been able to murder with a 5 shot bolt action rifle? How many American mass-murders wouldn't survive the scrutiny this guy did, or have the patience to plan and wait for months and months? You will never stop every wack-job-murderer, but you can make their job harder.




Kind of goes to what I have said about our mass shootings versus just the Chicago shootings this year.  Our mass shootings are tragic and disgusting.  In the overall scheme of things mass shooting here don't have nearly the same overall impact, except in the public mind, that just Chicago shootings have.  Difference?  Well, there are several - Chicago shootings are spread over days instead of hours.  Mostly blacks killing blacks in Chicago, versus crazies killing kids and white people in most of the mass shootings.   Chicago - June 16th, they were at 1,689 shootings for the year.   Today - not even 1 month later - they are at 2,110.  421 more.  And 344 dead total.   Overall, that is about 700 more than same time last year.   13 yesterday.  3 so far today...quiet day, but not nighttime yet, either.   JUST Chicago!!

http://crime.chicagotribune.com/chicago/shootings/

We still insist on looking for the answer where "the light is better"...


As for hunting deer - well, he may have wanted to...may not.  Hard to say.  In Oklahoma we allow .223 as a deer cartridge.  Cannot have more than 7 rounds in the gun at one time.  If you have another magazine, you can reload another 7 in a few seconds.  When I started hunting, that small a bullet was not allowed.  I still don't think it is adequate for a good clean killing shot, but that's just my opinion.  I like .308 a lot.  Can also get an AR style in that caliber that will hold 30 rounds, too.

As for bolt action rifle - well, it really isn't all that time consuming to reload a bolt action.  I have a .30-06 WWI military rifle that I can reload 5 shots in about 10 - 15 seconds.  And carry a couple hundred rounds easily in a rather small shoulder bag (man purse??) or belt pack.  Some of these guys are walking around shooting for 10, 20, 30 minutes - an hour.  One could do pretty much the same damage with a WWI rifle as the AR15 if you concentrated just a little bit and planned it out ahead.  If you have a "target rich" environment, like I have heard Ted Nugent talk about, and no law enforcement for a long time, bolt action is easily just as effective as AR.   What is the infatuation with AR ?  I don't know - maybe it's all the Bruce Willis, Arnold, and others action movies...

I have talked about the one very good place for the high capacity magazine - hog hunting - which has been dismissed by some who have never been hunting and have no clue about how it is to be in close proximity to a group of wild hogs.  I want all the firepower available.  And it is almost 'anything goes' with hogs now since they are such a big problem.  I also carry a handgun with extra magazines.  






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« Reply #103 on: July 12, 2016, 01:22:14 pm »

Five shot mags with the need to stop and reload are far, far less effective than high capacity clips - at least 50% slower if you are an absolute rock star. Your target rich environment quickly diminishes when you start shooting.  Eventually the Norway guy was targeting people swimming out to sea because they had all fled.

The reason for the AR-15 obsession is because it is one of the most effective weapons to kill humans ever designed. There's a reason the US military's "new" rifle is essentially an AR-15 (knock an inch off the barrel and add burst fire to some models), it's the best tool for the job. If the United States armed forces thought they could significantly improve on it, they would have.
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« Reply #104 on: July 12, 2016, 01:33:57 pm »


And 25% of all people killed by cops are mentally ill:
http://www.npr.org/2015/07/04/420019849/paper-finds-one-quarter-of-those-killed-by-police-are-mentally-ill
That’s a whole bucket of stereotypes from your own bias that isn’t based in reality. In the real world most black people are middle class and the actual number of violent crimes committed in this country are at the lowest point in several decades. The number of police that are killed in the line of duty are at a 50 year low, and that’s with almost twice the population of the 1960s.  We are becoming a far more peaceful people. So shouldn’t police be getting less violent as violent crime continues to drop and their jobs become more safe, why is that not the case?


I would argue that anyone that points a gun at the police is mentally ill.    Wink
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