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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2016, 02:52:22 pm »

Hyperbole much?

90 million native American's. First of all, at most it has been estimated there were roughly 15,000,000 in all of North America prior to European arrival. Second, most were not "exterminated" (although some were in Connecticut). They died mainly because we forcibly took the country from them, and in the process brought diseases that they were not accustomed to. You can thank those European murderers later for the existence of this miserable land called the USA.

While slavery was horrific, it is not something we invented, and the forefathers had brains enough to write a governing document that allowed for the ending of the practice. American's are hardly the sole group to blame for this practice, and in fact if you were so unfortunate to be a slave, you were lucky to be sold west (as opposed to east). If we did it the way they did, there were be no people of African decent in the US today. It's all relative.


Apologist.

And yeah, about 15 million at one single point in time.  Then look at the reproduction of generations for the next 400 years and you get a VERY low guess of 90+ million who were killed by action of 'settlers', out of what probably was close to 175 million - probably more - who lived over that time.  Dismissive minimization of atrocities.


"you were lucky to be sold west..."   WOW!!   Channeling President Jefferson Davis today, are we??  So one abomination is better than another.  Yeah...slavery was all for their own "good"....  I seriously hope you don't fall into believing the lies that the Civil War was not about slavery??   


Jefferson Davis.  From his memoir, The Rise and Fall of the Confederate Government, 1881.  Vol 2, pg 161-162.

"Let the reader pause for a moment and look calmly at the facts presented in this statement. The forefathers of these negro soldiers were gathered from the torrid plains and malarial swamps of inhospitable Africa. Generally they were born the slaves of barbarian masters, untaught in all the useful arts and occupations, reared in heathen darkness, they were transferred to shores enlightened by the rays of Christianity. There, put to servitude, they were trained in the gentle arts of peace and order and civilization; they increased from a few unprofitable savages to millions of efficient Christian laborers. Their servile instincts rendered them contented with their lot, and their patient toil blessed the land of their abode with unmeasured riches. Their strong local and personal attachment secured faithful service to those to whom their service  or labor was due. A strong mutual affection was the natural result of this lifelong relation, a feeling best if not only understood by those who have grown from childhood under its influence. Never was there happier dependence of labor and capitol on each other. The tempter came, like the serpent in Eden, and decoyed them with the magic word “freedom.” Too many were allured by the uncomprehended and unfilled promises, until the highways of the these wanderers were marked by corpses of infants and the aged. He put arms in their hands, and trained their humble but emotional natures to deeds of violence and bloodshed, and sent them out to devastate their benefactors. …"




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« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2016, 03:39:36 pm »


Apologist.

And yeah, about 15 million at one single point in time.  Then look at the reproduction of generations for the next 400 years and you get a VERY low guess of 90+ million who were killed by action of 'settlers', out of what probably was close to 175 million - probably more - who lived over that time.  Dismissive minimization of atrocities.


"you were lucky to be sold west..."   WOW!!   Channeling President Jefferson Davis today, are we??  So one abomination is better than another.  Yeah...slavery was all for their own "good"....  I seriously hope you don't fall into believing the lies that the Civil War was not about slavery??  


Jefferson Davis.  From his memoir, The Rise and Fall of the Confederate Government, 1881.  Vol 2, pg 161-162.

"Let the reader pause for a moment and look calmly at the facts presented in this statement. The forefathers of these negro soldiers were gathered from the torrid plains and malarial swamps of inhospitable Africa. Generally they were born the slaves of barbarian masters, untaught in all the useful arts and occupations, reared in heathen darkness, they were transferred to shores enlightened by the rays of Christianity. There, put to servitude, they were trained in the gentle arts of peace and order and civilization; they increased from a few unprofitable savages to millions of efficient Christian laborers. Their servile instincts rendered them contented with their lot, and their patient toil blessed the land of their abode with unmeasured riches. Their strong local and personal attachment secured faithful service to those to whom their service  or labor was due. A strong mutual affection was the natural result of this lifelong relation, a feeling best if not only understood by those who have grown from childhood under its influence. Never was there happier dependence of labor and capitol on each other. The tempter came, like the serpent in Eden, and decoyed them with the magic word “freedom.” Too many were allured by the uncomprehended and unfilled promises, until the highways of the these wanderers were marked by corpses of infants and the aged. He put arms in their hands, and trained their humble but emotional natures to deeds of violence and bloodshed, and sent them out to devastate their benefactors. …"






You do know that less than 7% of Black Africans sold into slavery in the Americas ever came to what is today the US? The vast majority went to South America where conditions were even worse, in some cases, much worse than here. Almost 40% went to what is Brazil today alone. In some of what was the Spanish Empire's sections of South America they didn't really practice hereditary slavery because they simply worked all the slaves to death and then replaced them. That's why those countries today don't have substantial black populations even though they took in more slaves than we did. This is not meant to mitigate the awfulness of human slavery in the US, but just to show that what happened here was far from unique, or the worst.

The same is true of in the treatment of Natives throughout the Americas. Your numbers for Native Americans in the US seem way inflated, the actual larger populations of Natives in the Americas were in Central and South America and again the treatment was no better than here and in some cases, worse, continuing into today. That does not change the fact that Andrew Jackson was a monster and should not be revered in any way at all.

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« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2016, 08:39:40 pm »


No.  Trump Conservatives are comparing themselves to Sharia Law and advocating it.  That is the old law of Abraham that you see manifested in all the illegal acts they do such as putting the 10 Commandments on the capital property.  Listen to the people around you at work - I would bet that most of them are all about "going back to the good ole days."  What Bible based things do you want to see put in place in this country?   I would bet money that it isn't New Testament stuff.  And anything from the Old Testament is, by definition, the old law...Sharia Law.  The Old Law of Abraham IS Sharia Law.  Another one of those points of historical fact that is somehow getting lost in the extremist right propaganda stream.

Why would you have to hate anyone?  You don't have to unless you choose to.

Why would Trump work so hard at holding up the 'mirror' to the Hijacked Republican party - all he is doing is verbalizing what they have been working toward for decades - while spewing glittering generalities of "conservatism" ala Rupert Murdoch, Koch Brothers, Faux News.  Every Trump supporter/advocate - and that appears to be closing in on about 25 to 30% of the US population - IS not a real conservative...they (true conservatives) are something else!




I need to look at history??  That is rich....I have.  What is more interesting and borderline appalling is how anyone can possibly think that Germany, Russia, and Italy at their worst can even be at the same table compared to the extermination of 90 million + Native Americans in this country?  Or 300 + years of slavery/torture/brutality/murder of Africans?   Wow!  Cannot even begin to wrap my head around that one....  Those 3 looked to us for example and inspiration and even with their "best" efforts, were unable to achieve more than a fraction of what was done here.  All of them added together!





90?? 90 MILLION?? You have lost your mind. If you think for one second that 90 million were killed by European settlers then you really are nuts, and I mean NUTS. There wasn't even 90 Million at that time. I have had mass respect for a lot of things you have said in the past, but now I think you have jumped off the cliff. I stand by my initial statement, over all of history this country is not the most evil as you have stated. Just slays me that people think as you do, just slays me. I give you the mass murder of Native Americans, I give you the slavery ( United States was the least of all throughout the world at the time) and you still think this country is the " most evil of all time in all of history"?? ALL OF HISTORY???

This is the thinking that will doom this country. This is the thinking that is getting TRUMP supporters and you don't even realize that. 90 MILLION. SHOW ME THOSE FACTS.

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« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2016, 09:07:02 pm »

90?? 90 MILLION?? You have lost your mind. If you think for one second that 90 million were killed by European settlers then you really are nuts, and I mean NUTS. There wasn't even 90 Million at that time. I have had mass respect for a lot of things you have said in the past, but now I think you have jumped off the cliff. I stand by my initial statement, over all of history this country is not the most evil as you have stated. Just slays me that people think as you do, just slays me. I give you the mass murder of Native Americans, I give you the slavery ( United States was the least of all throughout the world at the time) and you still think this country is the " most evil of all time in all of history"?? ALL OF HISTORY???

This is the thinking that will doom this country. This is the thinking that is getting TRUMP supporters and you don't even realize that. 90 MILLION. SHOW ME THOSE FACTS.



I'd have to agree here.  Research suggests that for the entirety of the Americas (North, Central and South), there were probably about 56 million indigenous peoples before European settlers got here.    Almost half of that number resided in what is now Mexico (~25mil).  North America (United States and Canada), estimates show, had about 4.5 to 6 million, of that 3 to 4.5 million lived in what is the USA.
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« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2016, 09:18:45 pm »

90?? 90 MILLION?? You have lost your mind. If you think for one second that 90 million were killed by European settlers then you really are nuts, and I mean NUTS. There wasn't even 90 Million at that time. I have had mass respect for a lot of things you have said in the past, but now I think you have jumped off the cliff. I stand by my initial statement, over all of history this country is not the most evil as you have stated. Just slays me that people think as you do, just slays me. I give you the mass murder of Native Americans, I give you the slavery ( United States was the least of all throughout the world at the time) and you still think this country is the " most evil of all time in all of history"?? ALL OF HISTORY???

This is the thinking that will doom this country. This is the thinking that is getting TRUMP supporters and you don't even realize that. 90 MILLION. SHOW ME THOSE FACTS.



I looked it up and the population of North America in 1500 was 3 million and Latin America was 39 million. Europe at that time was only 84 million. By 1700 North America's population had fallen to 2 million and Latin America had fallen all the way to 10 million.  

The native population of what is the US today peaked at what was probably about 2-3 million in 1500 and fell to about 250,000 by 1800, mostly due to Smallpox, mostly natural but certainly sometimes used by both the US and the British as a biological weapon. Today there are about 2 million natives in the US.
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erfalf
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« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2016, 06:36:45 am »

I understand that true genocide (on a small scale) was occurring with Native American's in the Northeast, but if you are referring to the "genocide" committed by the European settlers, that in my opinion is severely mislabeled. They were not exterminated, they were conquered. This is something that has gone on since the beginning of time, and in fact it is something the North American Native Americans practiced on a regular basis. Europeans just happened to arrive with bigger sticks, and therefore took the land from them. Call it what you will, but I have no regret or ill will toward them. Besides what other nation has offered the conquered their own sovereign lands after they conquered them?
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« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2016, 08:09:36 am »

I understand that true genocide (on a small scale) was occurring with Native American's in the Northeast, but if you are referring to the "genocide" committed by the European settlers, that in my opinion is severely mislabeled. They were not exterminated, they were conquered. This is something that has gone on since the beginning of time, and in fact it is something the North American Native Americans practiced on a regular basis. Europeans just happened to arrive with bigger sticks, and therefore took the land from them. Call it what you will, but I have no regret or ill will toward them. Besides what other nation has offered the conquered their own sovereign lands after they conquered them?


Spoken like a true paleface.   Smiley
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« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2016, 08:58:07 am »

Spoken like a true paleface.   Smiley

With Cherokee ancestry, yes. Assume away.

The winners always get to write the history. If they could have annihilated the Europeans, they would have. And then what would you say about the "genocide" the Indians committed against the Euros?
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« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2016, 10:55:10 am »

Anybody read "1491", by Charles Mann?   Great book on pre-columbian civilizations, and how they were affected by contact with Europeans.  There is a pretty thorough discussion of pre-columbian population numbers, wth the various positions of the "high counters" and those that think the numbers were much lower.
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« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2016, 10:57:39 am »

Well, I guess this thread demonstrates exactly why we as a nation can't actually solve any of our problems.  Every conversation devolves into an incoherent shouting match about irrelevant bullsh*t.

Here are topics to consider instead:
1. I have to get a license to operate a car, a motorcycle, a boat, to fish, and to shoot a deer, but not to purchase and operate a deadly weapon designed solely for killing humans.  My drivers license and my car tag do not infringe on my right to own and drive a car.  Why are guns different?  There is a problem when our laws make it easier to buy a gun than to vote.  When the founders talked about a well-regulated militia and the right to bear arms, it was because they did not want the United States to have a standing army.  They needed to know who the able-bodied men were, and who owned a gun...so they kept track!

2. Military weapons belong in the military only.  Average citizens have no reason to own military grade weapons. Again, the founders were dealing with a reality where people had muskets, the same guns were used for hunting as war, and it took about 15-20 seconds to re-load and fire again. We live in a different world, and our laws need to adapt to that reality.
 
3. In general, we underfund mental health services and health care.  Better access to mental health services and support might help prevent people who are suffering from taking last resort, batsh*t crazy, lone wolf actions.

4. Homophobia is real and is fed by the political right and far too many members of various organized religions for reasons that have nothing to do with Christ.

My father was a gun collector and I was raised around guns.  My first lessons took place when I was in 3rd grade, and safety was paramount.  Back then, being a member of the NRA meant that you cared about the safe and responsible operation of guns.  It wasn't about gun manufacturers fueling a paranoid campaign of fear to instigate gun sales.  And it wasn't a political ploy.


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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2016, 11:54:38 am »

90?? 90 MILLION?? You have lost your mind. If you think for one second that 90 million were killed by European settlers then you really are nuts, and I mean NUTS. There wasn't even 90 Million at that time. I have had mass respect for a lot of things you have said in the past, but now I think you have jumped off the cliff. I stand by my initial statement, over all of history this country is not the most evil as you have stated. Just slays me that people think as you do, just slays me. I give you the mass murder of Native Americans, I give you the slavery ( United States was the least of all throughout the world at the time) and you still think this country is the " most evil of all time in all of history"?? ALL OF HISTORY???

This is the thinking that will doom this country. This is the thinking that is getting TRUMP supporters and you don't even realize that. 90 MILLION. SHOW ME THOSE FACTS.




Do you really think those 15 million in 1492 all stayed alive in a static situation until about 1900 when most of the bounties were lifted??  Leaving only 15 million to die over those 400 years???


When one thinks about how populations grow - let's make some rough estimates...  Maybe 1/3 were breeding age?  (Plus 1/3 kids and 1/3 old)  If ya wanna argue a little more or little less, that is fine with me, but I will start there for this example.

So 5 million were having kids probably at least once every 2 to 3 years (actually would have likely been more often), so in 3 years we have the original 15 million plus 5 million kids - 20 million.  Say 20% die in every 3 year group.  Consider adulthood of 21 years old just to make the math come out a little more even - letting many of that generation actually have kids.  End of first 3 year increment, we end up with 20 - 1 million....19 left.  

If spread the kids growing up over the 21 years (5% per year-ish reaching maturity) and old people dying at about same rate - 5% per year, and current breeding people leaving the breeding ages at 5% per year.

Repeat 6 more times to 21 years - the typical "end" of one generation time and start of another.   That gives a total rough number of 43 million people who have lived during that 21 year increment of time.  Take out for death rates from all causes, and let's keep it simple and say that the population stays steady near that 19 million point of the first 3 year time.

Repeat every 21 years.  In 210 years that is 430 million people.  315 years is 645 million.  420 years would be 860 million who would have been born, lived and died in those 400 years.  My estimates for birth rate may be high - maybe they only had babies every 5 years and stopped after 3 or 4 instead of 7 in 21 years which would cut these numbers to fewer but still hundreds of millions of people over the time frame - still probably much higher than my 175 number earlier.

Which takes me back to the 175 million total population spanning that time.  And the estimate of 90 million - that is an extermination/genocide/ethnic cleansing event.  Think about this for a while - you are a sharp person - and even if you aren't good at math, I would bet that your family, or at least the family of a friend will give you a kind of small version of this population path.  I know there are huge variations - in my family, it ranges from only-children to families with 14 kids born, 13 of which survived to adulthood.  I haven't gone in depth into the make up of the typical tribal extended family unit, but 250 to 400 people seems to be kind of a critical mass that guarantees survival of the group, all other things being equal, without the 'meltdown of society' issues from a much larger group.  (Mormons have recognized this critical mass phenomena and organize their churches into groups of about 250 - I think they are called 'stakes'...??)

If we use Wounded Knee as an example of a typical tribal unit, there were around 350 Native people in attendance to be butchered.  Army reports said that about half were women and children (175).  This gives a slightly higher percentage of breeding age people than I used but may be very close due to many of the men having been already killed or still off the reservation as a group to fight.  Other accounts I have read say that this was kind of a typical group and mix, if you add in the missing men.  Or about 1/3 having babies as I used above.

So of that 175, if we say that each woman averaged 2 kids at that particular point in time, there were roughly in the ballpark of 60 women and 120 kids.  If they each had 3, it moves those numbers around a little - fewer women, more kids.  So the estimates I use above may not be exact, but are pretty close to typical.  Which means that 860 million over 400 years may not be far off.  I will stay with my 175 and 90 just to be EXTREMELY conservative and if engaging in any hyperbole, for it to be in underestimating the numbers....  If anything, I have not jumped off a cliff - I have stepped off a very short curb.



As for most evil country - please reread what I said.  I did NOT say we are the most evil country in all of history.    I made no judgement about our relative moral position - just stated facts.    THIS is what I said....not the same.

"I have said it before and repeat - no other country in the history of this planet has done as much good as the US.  And no other country has done as much evil.  Maybe that's why we are so politically schizoid...."








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« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2016, 12:02:01 pm »

You do know that less than 7% of Black Africans sold into slavery in the Americas ever came to what is today the US? The vast majority went to South America where conditions were even worse, in some cases, much worse than here. Almost 40% went to what is Brazil today alone. In some of what was the Spanish Empire's sections of South America they didn't really practice hereditary slavery because they simply worked all the slaves to death and then replaced them. That's why those countries today don't have substantial black populations even though they took in more slaves than we did. This is not meant to mitigate the awfulness of human slavery in the US, but just to show that what happened here was far from unique, or the worst.

The same is true of in the treatment of Natives throughout the Americas. Your numbers for Native Americans in the US seem way inflated, the actual larger populations of Natives in the Americas were in Central and South America and again the treatment was no better than here and in some cases, worse, continuing into today. That does not change the fact that Andrew Jackson was a monster and should not be revered in any way at all.




I have less than zero interest in what other parts of the world were doing...it is OUR abominable behavior that is the topic.  Yeah, the Dutch first learned about how to engage in slavery from other Africans.  Followed by all the other Europeans (except for the Irish).  That argument says that since we were only 7%, that somehow makes us "better" by 93% than all the others.   BS !!  We were 100% evil on that topic. 

As we were 100% evil on the topic of extermination and genocide of the Native American population.  Same thing there - it doesn't matter if Central America had twice, 3 or 4 times the population - it just means that Spain was even worse than we were, but takes NOTHING away from our culpability! 


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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

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« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2016, 12:09:27 pm »

I looked it up and the population of North America in 1500 was 3 million and Latin America was 39 million. Europe at that time was only 84 million. By 1700 North America's population had fallen to 2 million and Latin America had fallen all the way to 10 million.  

The native population of what is the US today peaked at what was probably about 2-3 million in 1500 and fell to about 250,000 by 1800, mostly due to Smallpox, mostly natural but certainly sometimes used by both the US and the British as a biological weapon. Today there are about 2 million natives in the US.


It is difficult to know what the numbers were - in great part because so many times, new settlers would come into an area of neat, orderly park like forest where the original population had lived, but been eradicated by disease brought by mostly Jesuit priests acting as missionaries.  They would look around and say, 'look at this great area...we will take it!"  And with only cursory wonder at why there were no people living in such an ideal location. 

The Natives did manage the eastern forests using fire to allow transportation, encourage/manage game populations, etc.  They weren't just the "savages" that your history lessons and John Wayne would have you believe.




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« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2016, 12:10:09 pm »

Well, I guess this thread demonstrates exactly why we as a nation can't actually solve any of our problems.  Every conversation devolves into an incoherent shouting match about irrelevant bullsh*t.

Here are topics to consider instead:
1. I have to get a license to operate a car, a motorcycle, a boat, to fish, and to shoot a deer, but not to purchase and operate a deadly weapon designed solely for killing humans.  My drivers license and my car tag do not infringe on my right to own and drive a car.  Why are guns different?  There is a problem when our laws make it easier to buy a gun than to vote.  When the founders talked about a well-regulated militia and the right to bear arms, it was because they did not want the United States to have a standing army.  They needed to know who the able-bodied men were, and who owned a gun...so they kept track!

2. Military weapons belong in the military only.  Average citizens have no reason to own military grade weapons. Again, the founders were dealing with a reality where people had muskets, the same guns were used for hunting as war, and it took about 15-20 seconds to re-load and fire again. We live in a different world, and our laws need to adapt to that reality.

Because none of those other things are expressly protected in the Bill of Rights. And yes, they didn't want a standing army, hence civilians were armed with firepower equivalent to what a standing army at the time would have had. This hits on point 2 of yours. I think I might be able to make a stronger case that the original intent of the second amendment was to have citizens carrying "military grade" weapons, in case raising a militia became necessary.  And you're right, that it would seem that a militia in this day in age seems unnecessary, but I know several civilizations that likely thought the same thing. And it didn't turn out well. And you are right we live in a different world. The military is carrying around precision extreme capacity weapons and the civilians are carrying around semi automatic rifles. I think we already don't carry what the military has.
 
My father was a gun collector and I was raised around guns.  My first lessons took place when I was in 3rd grade, and safety was paramount.  Back then, being a member of the NRA meant that you cared about the safe and responsible operation of guns.  It wasn't about gun manufacturers fueling a paranoid campaign of fear to instigate gun sales.  And it wasn't a political ploy.

I totally agree that this whole "never let a crisis go to waste" mentality no matter how repulsive has gotten way out of hand. Look, I don't even own a gun, may never own one, but I will continue to advocate for the second amendment till the day I die.
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« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2016, 12:12:59 pm »


...it is OUR abominable behavior that is the topic. 


You realize that's like saying "we won" when your favorite sports team wins...

And the topic is "more mass shootings".
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