Magic City Books / Archer Building

[davideinstein]

Aside from the occasional JJ’s splurge, my wife and I generally avoid chain food places.  And no, I’m not saying that for your benefit, you guys do the best lettuce wrapped bread-less sandwich.  

So are you saying more chain fast food or more chain retailers would benefit the area?

For us, anyhow, we’d be drawn by locally-owned restaurants than chain to make it downtown for a meal.  When I meet a client or friend for lunch in the Deco District for lunch it’s either at La Salle’s or Elote.

Good chains of retail or food add for traffic. Put a Chipotle or CVS in the Deco District and it would help everyone. You don't need to overdue it but you need a good mix.

[Conan71]

Good chains of retail or food add for traffic. Put a Chipotle or CVS in the Deco District and it would help everyone. You don't need to overdue it but you need a good mix.

CVS isn’t in particular favor from a development standpoint and Chipotle is still reeling from their e-coli nightmare.

I can see where the convenience of a national level drug store would be of benefit, but the two giants seem to be bent on only existing in suburban dreck.

[davideinstein]

CVS isn’t in particular favor from a development standpoint and Chipotle is still reeling from their e-coli nightmare.

I can see where the convenience of a national level drug store would be of benefit, but the two giants seem to be bent on only existing in suburban dreck.

I guess my point was a 24 hour pharmacy and a couple of more joints like Jimmy John's help add walking traffic. It could be another chain, I just used those off the top of my head. Chains adjust to their surroundings on development.

[carltonplace]

I get your point, but other than JJ most of the other chains in DT (Arbys, Fortune Chef) don't serve beyond lunch. Like Conan I prefer the local joints over chains, but realize that lots of other Tulsans don't think this way. I think the only kind of chain that would move the needle downtown has to be some sort of destination restaurant like Ruths Chris or blech CheeseCake Factory. I'm just worried that once you open this door then we also get the other top 10 chains, Longhorn, Texas Roadhouse, Red Robin, Chilis, Olive Garden, Carrabas or <gasp> Cracker Barrel.

What we really need in downtown besides a grocery is a homegoods store and some clothing options beyond tee-shirts.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

What we really need in downtown besides a grocery is a homegoods store and some clothing options beyond tee-shirts.

To some extent, Decopolis is a home goods store (dishes, decor, kitchen knick-knacks and utensils, artwork). Furthermore Dwelling Spaces, as the name implies, has home decor stuff also. There is nothing to the extent of West Elm or Target obviously, but I am not sure the market is there yet for a bigger home goods place unless it could be a unique regional draw like World  Market.

There have been several small home goods and clothing places which opened and closed in the Deco District. When I went to those, it really felt like going to stores out on a small isolated island or a gas station in a remote area (empty). It is a shame more Tulsans don't support downtown  businesses yet pack out lots of chain stores near 71st and Mingo. Cherry St and Brookside provide some hope, but downtown just doesn't have a retail draw right now.

[DTowner]

Cherry Street and to a lesser extent Brookside have seen the arrival of national chains with no ill effect (so far).  I prefer locally owned, but the arrival of chains put a stamp of approval on an area and, as mentioned by others, can help drive a lot more foot traffic that benefits everyone.  I can’t think of a single restaurant that failed on Cherry St. or Brookside because of a national chain’s arrival.  Indeed, Wolfgang Puck failed (started out great, but then went downhill) while locals around it flourished.

Chains will come to downtown once we’ve grown enough to catch their eye and meet their metrics.  We shouldn’t fear that eventuality, but recognize that it will force everyone to up their game to compete and succeed.  Of course, that is a lot easier for me to say because I don’t own a small retail business downtown.

[davideinstein]

Cherry Street and to a lesser extent Brookside have seen the arrival of national chains with no ill effect (so far).  I prefer locally owned, but the arrival of chains put a stamp of approval on an area and, as mentioned by others, can help drive a lot more foot traffic that benefits everyone.  I can’t think of a single restaurant that failed on Cherry St. or Brookside because of a national chain’s arrival.  Indeed, Wolfgang Puck failed (started out great, but then went downhill) while locals around it flourished.

Chains will come to downtown once we’ve grown enough to catch their eye and meet their metrics.  We shouldn’t fear that eventuality, but recognize that it will force everyone to up their game to compete and succeed.  Of course, that is a lot easier for me to say because I don’t own a small retail business downtown.

I was told Wolfgang was paying $12k a month for that spot. That's an unreal price tag.

[Conan71]

I was told Wolfgang was paying $12k a month for that spot. That's an unreal price tag.

I don’t think Wolfgang was writing the checks.  That was a Hughes/Henry deal.  If anything they were writing Puck a check on top of the $12K rent check.  People who were expecting Spago quality for $25-$50 a guest were likely disappointed.  It was good but not great.  SMOKE and Tallgrass are two places I can think of which ran circles around Puck’s in the same price range.

[PonderInc]

I have a friend who grew up in the suburbs of Dallas, and when she moved to Tulsa, she was baffled by the lack of national chains.  She couldn't figure out where everyone ate!  (I guess she never went to 71st and Mingo...)  She's learned since then, and now basically only eats at local restaurants... because they're so much better.

Yes, at national chains, you know what you will get.  Which can be nice when you're exhausted from driving 10 hours on a long trip in an unfamiliar place and you're starving.  But it's not what you do when you want to explore a PLACE.

I spent 5 minutes on Google street view of Denver's 16th Street Mall, and came up with the following national chains:

Noodles & Co, Office Depot (2), Chipotle, Cheesecake Factory, Smash Burger, Starbucks (2), Loft, Verizon, Sports Authority, McDonalds (2), Chilis, 7-Eleven, Subway, Athlete’s Foot, Edible Arrangements, Jason’s Deli, DQ, TJ Maxx, Famous Footwear, Payless, Radio Shack, Jimmy Johns, Sally Beauty Supply, Ross, Walgreens, Dress Barn, Rite Aid, Jason’s Deli, Jamba Juice, Pizza Hut, Taco Bell, Einstein Bros Bagels, Great Clips, Wolf Camera, Hard Rock Café, Pinkberry, Corner Bakery, Sunglasses Hut, Barnes & Noble, Peets Coffee & Tea, plus some hotels and banks…

Mixed in, I saw a few local places. But there aren't enough unique local places to draw me to this location despite the massive public investment in transit and streetscaping, and the wide variety of options.  Why go somewhere when I can find every one of those destinations in my hometown?  Literally, the only reason I'm ever on the 16th Street Mall is to see if anyone is playing one of the outdoor pianos (which is cool and unique).

Tulsa has to stay unique to survive.  This is one thing we can learn from Austin.  I love some of the little neighborhood areas like on South Congress.  Even if they're only a few blocks long, they're quirky and unique, and they feel authentic to the place. We have to have one-of-a-kind offerings to attract people.  Otherwise, everyone can just stay home in Wichita and get whatever they need from the same assortment of stores and restaurants.

But that's just me.  Invariably I avoid the places dominated by national chains, no matter how upscale they may be.  You'll always find me exploring the little places that local people own and operate.  They are consistently far more interesting, both in what they have to offer and the people you'll meet there. 

Granted, this is a matter of taste.  I understand the argument that we should have something for everyone.  OK, yes.  Just as long as they don't drive the local guys out of business, I'm OK with that. And if someone can explain how national chains are good for the local small businesses, I'll go with it.  But one word of warning: "Walmart."  Just sayin...

[davideinstein]

Local places are awesome until they don't have the income to stay open. Not every area will have millions from Kaiser or a stadium funded by public tax dollars to boom like the Greenwood/Brady Disctrict. I'll take a Starbucks in the Sinclair Building and consider that a win for everybody.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

Local places are awesome until they don't have the income to stay open. Not every area will have millions from Kaiser or a stadium funded by public tax dollars to boom like the Greenwood/Brady Disctrict. I'll take a Starbucks in the Sinclair Building and consider that a win for everybody.

Your bias is showing as an owner of a national franchise. My question is, how do all of these local places in small towns stay in business without millions from groups like GKFF? I mean places like Fresno, Modesto, Coos Bay, Salinas, Payson, Page, Eureka, Medford, and towns that size that aren't tourist traps, or homes to major college or near pro sports?

[davideinstein]

Your bias is showing as an owner of a national franchise. My question is, how do all of these local places in small towns stay in business without millions from groups like GKFF? I mean places like Fresno, Modesto, Coos Bay, Salinas, Payson, Page, Eureka, Medford, and towns that size that aren't tourist traps, or homes to major college or near pro sports?

I'm not an owner. I'm just giving you all the counter argument and it's something I analyze every day working for a chain. People want a utopia of local places but what I see is boarded up buildings in the city center. I want local to succeed but I think the vision on how to accomplish that is extremely skewed in a city the size of Tulsa.

[AquaMan]

I think part of the locals longevity is that they have different standards for fiscal success. Or even personal success. Investors in chains want a certain roi or they grouse and bolt. Many local restaurants are run by past employees of chains or large successful locals. They rely on family, friends and self deprivation to achieve their dreams of success. And if they manage to employ cousins, aunts, and friends to survive its even more of a success.

Related. I ate at Calaveras Mexican last nite at Admiral and Lewis in the old Whittier Square. I spent much of my youth in the fifties/sixties in that area. I loved it. Obviously a family operated restaurant with a very adventurous menu stuffed into what used to be a Crown Drugstore way back. I would go to this place over any chain for real Mexican food served quickly with hospitality. And the area is coming back to life so I want to support that growth.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

I'm not an owner. I'm just giving you all the counter argument and it's something I analyze every day working for a chain. People want a utopia of local places but what I see is boarded up buildings in the city center. I want local to succeed but I think the vision on how to accomplish that is extremely skewed in a city the size of Tulsa.

You have to take into consideration that Tulsa is what, 10 years into trying to undo 30+ years of nobody gives a damn. You have a small group of people that had a vision of a different Blue Dome/Brady area and they started out on their own, and most of the places they moved into they probably got for a song in the beginning and very wisely so because if it didn't work the financial loss wold not be as high if it had been in other areas of DT. I applaud them and GKFF for giving an area that the before the jail, the only reasons to go there at night were you were homeless, going to Cain's, or worked at the dairy.

[davideinstein]

You have to take into consideration that Tulsa is what, 10 years into trying to undo 30+ years of nobody gives a damn. You have a small group of people that had a vision of a different Blue Dome/Brady area and they started out on their own, and most of the places they moved into they probably got for a song in the beginning and very wisely so because if it didn't work the financial loss wold not be as high if it had been in other areas of DT. I applaud them and GKFF for giving an area that the before the jail, the only reasons to go there at night were you were homeless, going to Cain's, or worked at the dairy.

For sure. When I moved just south of Downtown in 2004 it was a ghost town. Had my first beer at Caz's because it was one of the only bars around. Surrounded by nothing great. I'm a huge fan of the GKFF, my point was that isn't going to take more than that and a stadium in one area for Downtown to be great. I think we can all agree a chain in a mixed use building is better than a surface parking lot or abandon building.