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June 06, 2023, 06:24:59 am
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Author Topic: 11TH ST DEVELOPMENT  (Read 110953 times)
Tulsan
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« Reply #210 on: May 26, 2021, 09:52:57 am »

I didn't realize Improve Our Tulsa had an 11th Street rebuild in it. Any idea if that will incorporate the new streetscaping plans being implemented by that TIF. My understanding was they would only be prefunding the portion around that intersection - any additional streetscaping would come as money is collected from the TIF, so it'd likely be several years down the road before any TIF money would be available to be spent along the rest of the corridor. It's really one of the more bizarre TIF's I've seen created. I'm not sure why they didn't just make the TIF capture area for the entire portion of the spending zone that was created which is usually how it's done.

Would make little sense for the Improve Our Tulsa funds to rebuild the street and just repaint everything then a few years later come back and redo it again with streetscaping. Hopefully they can figure out a way to get most of it done at the same time to make better efficiency of the funds.

Yeah the Lewis-Harvard mile is slated for 2022 but theyíre so behind itíll be 2023. Utica to Lewis is like the year after that I think. I donít know about streetscape, but theyíll certainly follow Complete Streets for this round and also re-do any curbs/sidewalks that donít meet ADA. Lobeck Taylor seems to have a good feel for how CoT functions (no surprise) so itís a decent bet that itíll be done right.
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SXSW
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« Reply #211 on: May 26, 2021, 10:37:44 am »

Yeah the Lewis-Harvard mile is slated for 2022 but theyíre so behind itíll be 2023. Utica to Lewis is like the year after that I think. I donít know about streetscape, but theyíll certainly follow Complete Streets for this round and also re-do any curbs/sidewalks that donít meet ADA. Lobeck Taylor seems to have a good feel for how CoT functions (no surprise) so itís a decent bet that itíll be done right.

Will they do Utica to Peoria last?  That's another emerging area that ties into other improvements being made along Peoria north of 15th to 3rd
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Tulsan
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« Reply #212 on: May 26, 2021, 03:57:08 pm »

Will they do Utica to Peoria last?  That's another emerging area that ties into other improvements being made along Peoria north of 15th to 3rd

The city just finished that stretch of the street last month. No streetscaping yet, although that will be funded through the TIF. Also the intersection at 11th & Peoria and Peoria from 1st all the way to 49th is on the docket to be rebuilt using bond funding and following the Complete Streets manual over the next several years.
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tulsabug
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« Reply #213 on: May 27, 2021, 07:21:51 am »

None that I can share right now - I haven't seen the newer ones floating around anywhere else yet. It looks nice though, more brick and has more of a loft style look. It looks a lot like this project in Dallas: https://www.noveldeepellum.com/gallery

Frankly I've never seen a single example of where congestion drives people away. If that was the case Austin (especially areas like SoCo, Rainey Street, 6th, etc.) NYC, DC, LA, etc. would be vast wastelands by now. Every successful commercial corridor has congestion, it's just the reality of it. When a commercial area has no traffic congestion, it's usually a very bad sign. I'm also not sure why anyone would use 11th street to get out of downtown to avoid I-244, there is zero congestion on 244 out of downtown or on the streets downtown to get to 244 via Cincinnati or Detroit. Maybe you are seeing the effects of people leaving Hillcrest and other businesses?

I think congested traffic does drive people away, at least those which don't like spending their lives sitting in traffic. My wife and I have a real aversion to hitting places when we know traffic or parking is going to be a nightmare. However we do have friends who really seem to enjoy going to the most congested places in town or wait in line at restaurants for an hour or so for a table so I guess to each their own.

Quote from: LandArchPoke
Now, I agree the road diets completed need to be upgraded eventually. Something as simple as planter boxes that help separate the bike lanes and make them safer could be easy fixes but would likely have to be done by the businesses along the corridor themselves at the moment. The city doesn't have a lot of money to play with right now for upgrading the bike lanes to full separation yet. It will likely have to wait for the next bond issue for them to set aside money to make some of these road diets more permanent and safer. What they've done so far is still 100x better than having it stay as a 4 lane road that was unnecessary for the amount of traffic 11th and others handle. We can't design cities around the fact that someone might have to wait 1 or 2 cycles of a light at a particular intersection during rush hour. That's what we've done before and that's one of the reasons why many of these urban corridors died, we made it too easy for people to blow right past businesses which in turn creates an unpleasant environment for people. The unnecessary fear of 'congestion' and building roads in the urban core to 'fix' that problems ends up resulting in businesses moving to the suburbs anyways because when you design the urban core to make it easy to escape everyone eventually will and has. Adding turn lanes at specific intersections might be needed at some point but in general they are a complete waste of space outside of being on signaled intersections. That space would be better used for on street parking or expanded sidewalks. 

And I agree - highways are what killed Route 66 and a good chunk of America in the first place. I just think the city could have made the road diet on 11th street safer and more effective by doing sidewalk - lane - turning lane - lane - curb - bike lane - sidewalk instead of just shoehorning in two very unsafe bike lanes. Would that have really cost that much more money? Maybe a simple letter to business and house owners along 11th street asking what they need out of the street instead of just throwing something out there that seems like it was done without any thought. As a side note, one long turning lane down 11th would be useful for the multiple ambulances that fly down the road every day at a high rate of speed (and the cops too who regularly push 70-80).

Quote from: LandArchPoke
The problem with speed limit reductions is people don't pay attention to them and they drive as fast as the road allows them to feel safe - Cherry Street tried that too and failed a long time ago. Narrower roads make people drive slower, bigger lanes make people think it's a freeway - Cherry Street really started to change when they added more parking and narrowed the lanes just with paint years ago and that was when traffic began to slow down and it became less dangerous. Then finally years and years later it moved along to the recent improvements which are more permeant. Brookside is another good example, traffic moves much slower between 33rd to 35th than between 41st and 36th - has nothing to do with anything other than the width of the lanes - they shrink dramatically and people don't feel like they can drive 40 mph anymore and that's a good thing for that particular area.

I agree - I just think it can't hurt to knock the speed limit down 5mph and add more speed limit signs on 11th since there are very few (but we did gain 5000 bike lane signs!). You don't need to get everyone to follow the speed limit when it's only a two lane road - just one car really and everyone behind them can just stew.

Quote from: LandArchPoke
Just keep in mind that the road diets being done are mostly in a temporary format, most of the planning documents state for various improvements to be made but it's better to start doing it then just leave it however it was, and then work to make incremental improvements with better barriers, landscaping, etc. down the line as funding is available. Portland and NYC started much of their bike infrastructure the same way Tulsa is doing now, with just some paint. They are decades ahead of us and now in general when they expand biking infrastructure it's usually not just paint it's full on separated lanes, etc. and they have gone back and improved corridors that were temporary to begin with to improve them. Someday Tulsa will get there (hopefully) but everyone has to start somewhere. It is much easier to make a 'temporary' solution like repainting the street permanent than it is to take say the old format and go from it directly into permanent (this is well documented in planning circles too and why the city is taking this route - it creates far less NIMBY issues). This does actually allow the planning department to observe too what works and what might not before you invest the money into full upgrades to the corridors.
Sure but do you think they needed to start all the way at the same square one that cities like Portland and New York have figured out doesn't work and just kills bicyclists? I think a semi-permanent separation like Jersey barriers would work fine - not permanent, probably already on-hand and cheap to buy if not. And it would only need to be on one side since there is no need for bike lanes on both sides of the road until bike traffic increases enough to need that. I'm also worried the city isn't going to revisit this, which is their usual MO. Heck - in some areas the new paint lines are already fading out since they were done on decomposing asphalt and on the drainage slope of the road.
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tulsabug
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« Reply #214 on: May 27, 2021, 07:24:29 am »

The old Hawk Dairy has been bought by Ferguson Property Group. Same developer that will be doing the Lobeck Taylor apartment complex across Lewis.

The historic dairy will be retail/restaurant on first floor with apartments above. There will be new construction attached to the north and east of the dairy building. Total will be 85 market-rate apartments. Supposed to start in late fall of this year and take 12 months. I havenít yet seen renderings but hearing good things.

The car lot on the corner of the intersection and Perryís meat market remain in private hands. The owners will not sell. So Ferguson is moving forward without them.

This is exciting! I'm so glad the Hawk Dairy is going to have a new lease on life! Would have been a great building for the Route 66 Museum but as long as it stays in existence I'm happy.
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DowntownDan
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« Reply #215 on: July 14, 2021, 01:33:53 pm »

Market District streetscaping plan revealed. Should be nice, especially when the other corners get developed.

https://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/city-lobeck-taylor-family-foundation-unveils-significant-improvements-to-tulsa-market-district
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ComeOnBenjals
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« Reply #216 on: July 14, 2021, 01:46:43 pm »

77 Trees is the best news out of that article... wish they would've done that on Cherry St. Oh well!
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« Reply #217 on: July 14, 2021, 02:11:15 pm »

77 Trees is the best news out of that article... wish they would've done that on Cherry St. Oh well!

I think they should do something like this on Cherry Street - recently seen in Denver:
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shavethewhales
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« Reply #218 on: July 14, 2021, 03:42:10 pm »

Meh. Let me know if half those trees are still there in five years. Planters look nice in renderings, but rarely translate well in real life. They fall apart/don't get maintained, and are generally in the way of everything. Not that planters are bad or anything, and I welcome more trees, but I don't see anything radical here to get excited about. I think I'm most appreciative of the sewer and water lines that will be replaced.  Roll Eyes
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tulsabug
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« Reply #219 on: July 15, 2021, 06:45:51 am »

Meh. Let me know if half those trees are still there in five years. Planters look nice in renderings, but rarely translate well in real life. They fall apart/don't get maintained, and are generally in the way of everything. Not that planters are bad or anything, and I welcome more trees, but I don't see anything radical here to get excited about. I think I'm most appreciative of the sewer and water lines that will be replaced.  Roll Eyes

The planters on 15th beside the Expo have been decently maintained enough over the years and still look nice. However, I'm a bit worried about all those trees hiding people crossing the street. In a perfect world they'd use the crosswalks but I'm sure they're going to instead hide near trees and then dart out in front of cars and with the amount of traffic in that area it's gonna be a bit dangerous.
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buffalodan
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« Reply #220 on: July 15, 2021, 09:47:13 am »

Street trees are only really designed to live 5-15 years, so I think a bit of "they will be dead in 5 years" is a bit of people not understanding what they are there for. We recently worked with a city on a system of underground root chambers to increase that longevity, but they are expensive and then trees get bigger, which apparently is not what city maintenance people would want.

And as for congestion, I think the 71st street corridor proves that people will sit in their car and wait if the stores draw them there. It doesn't even require fancy stores and local restaurants. My MIL would wait in traffic for 30 minutes for DSW then wait for a table for 45 minutes to get to the cheesecake factory.

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Tulsan
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« Reply #221 on: July 15, 2021, 08:56:50 pm »

The old Hawk Dairy has been bought by Ferguson Property Group. Same developer that will be doing the Lobeck Taylor apartment complex across Lewis.

The historic dairy will be retail/restaurant on first floor with apartments above. There will be new construction attached to the north and east of the dairy building. Total will be 85 market-rate apartments. Supposed to start in late fall of this year and take 12 months. I havenít yet seen renderings but hearing good things.

The car lot on the corner of the intersection and Perryís meat market remain in private hands. The owners will not sell. So Ferguson is moving forward without them.

Here's a rendering of the Hawk Dairy development - about 100 units.  They're starting soon.



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dbacksfan 2.0
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« Reply #222 on: July 15, 2021, 09:15:41 pm »

Here's a rendering of the Hawk Dairy development - about 100 units.  They're starting soon.





I grew up in Tulsa and never knew that was a dairy. I just remember as a store fixture sales business back in the 70's.
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TulsaBeMore
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« Reply #223 on: July 16, 2021, 12:39:42 am »

I grew up in Tulsa and never knew that was a dairy. I just remember as a store fixture sales business back in the 70's.

Cool story I was told at a charity event partially sponsored by the Borden's incarnation of the downtown dairy that is closing.  It was around the time the Meadow Gold neon sign was moved from the current rooftop of a Mother Road Market building to its current perch at 11th & Peoria.  The Borden guys told me the story.  Hawk was the locally owned dairy in the 40s, 50s, etc. - I believe they had another building on the east side of the lot of the existing building which was taken down and is now a parking lot.  Ann's Bakery had a Hawk's ice cream freezer in its lobby until it closed.  So, back to the story ----  back in the day, the battle was on between Meadow Gold and Hawk for market supremacy.  It was a blood sport.  Meadow Gold was part of a big national company.  The upstairs  window of Mr. Hawk's office looked out over the intersection of 11th & Lewis.  To get under his skin, the corporate office at Meadow Gold rented the roof top of the building across the street and installed that massive landmark neon sign/clock.  So, every time Mr. Hawk looked out his window, he saw Meadow Gold flashing back at him.  I think of this story every time I drive by the Blue Bell plant in Broken Arrow and see the Braum's in front of it!   
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« Reply #224 on: July 16, 2021, 01:24:59 pm »

This and the project at the NW corner of 11th & Lewis with the streetscape work will really transform this part of the city. 
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