A grassroots organization focused on the intelligent and sustainable development, preservation and revitalization of Tulsa.
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
November 17, 2017, 03:25:25 pm
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 10   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...  (Read 22429 times)
hello
Civic Leader
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 244


WWW
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2015, 06:56:25 am »

That rooftoop!  Shocked This is all very exciting.
Logged

 
cannon_fodder
All around good guy.
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 9159



« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2015, 07:09:23 am »

I wish TulsaNow got 25 cents for every parking discussions - we could form a lobbying arm and make something happen!

I do not think the structured parking will provide parking for other residences. It will basically be parking for the residences attached and businesses therein (hopefully with a validation system). BUT - extra parking would be helpful for big event days. Also, the extra parking could serve as parking for extra vehicles for nearby residences (in-laws in town, that car you only drive on the weekends). Who knows...

But if the developer wants to build more *structured* parking, why try to discourage it? The more public parking garages around, the more likely people are to use them and get comfortable with it.

And yes, it will help drive down demand for surface lots. Like you said, the cheaper and most convenient option will win. How much are Tulsans willing to pay to be a couple of blocks closer? Mine eyes tell me it is $5-20 every time there is an event. A structured garage equals more competition, so the overall price of parking is flat or going down (even as the visitor numbers are going up).  If a surface lot can generate $X it makes sense to leave it a surface lot, if it can only generate $Y, I may as well sell it and get my money out now.

Also - not every development can fund structured parking. Its expensive. As the BlueDome and east end continue to prosper, parking and walking a couple of blocks in either direction would be very convenient.  The Brady is to the point that parking in the William's garage and walking over the tracks is usually the fastest/least headache inducing option ($2 people!). Nearly all of the space owned by the Equality Center is utilized. ~30 new units going up just across the street. Hodges Bend is almost always bumpin'. We're running out of neat old buildings in that area to convert - with parking available, the confidence to build smaller individual developments should be there (I know,  know, there's plenty of parking if you just look for it. But people are lazy.)

Also, isn't BrickHugger redeveloping the white building across the street (name?)? I know that has a small lot, but its entirely possible that a deal has been worked out between them and there is little or no "extra" parking.
Logged

- - - - - - - - -
I crush grooves.
dsjeffries
City Father
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2300



WWW
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2015, 07:28:07 am »

So glad they've gone (sort of) public with this! This has the potential to be amazing.

I wish there would have been more consideration put into the fact this is mixed-use and that not all of these uses will be active at the same time. The parking ratio is very high considering the amount of sq. ft. for each. This is about a 2.5 ratio to 1,000 sq. ft. which is barely lower than most suburban developments. I don't think downtown needs this much parking and I don't think this development needs this much parking.

Regardless of the mix of parking, 2.5 spaces/ 1000 sq ft is way better than "barely lower than most suburban developments." Retailers have internal parking standards they pretty much adhere to when they go into commercial developments. Take REI as an example: in their development standards, they require a minimum of 5 spaces per 1,000 sq ft. Their minimum is even higher than Tulsa's 1960s-model parking ordinance (4.44 for retail). The real estate manager for Home Depot HQ told me 4.5-5 spaces / 1000 sq ft is their minimum requirement. Olive Garden? 17-19 spacer per 1,000 sq ft. This holds true for most retail developments in Tulsa. And all those folks build is surface parking with the bare minimum of landscaping required to scrape by.

That said, I'll gladly take a take a large parking garage with retail on the first level that has an internal parking ratio of 2.5/1000, surrounded with other uses (hotel, apartments, office, hotel).

To those who complain about a perceived lack of multiple uses ("It's all retail, it's going to be dead at certain hours"), only the first floor is shown. Retail/restaurants get the first floor. But there's 170,000 square feet of office space included in this mix, too, in addition to nearly 300 apartments and a hotel. That's a pretty good mix, and should keep things lively.

600,000 thanks to Nelson + Stowe! This is awesome!
Logged

Change never happened because people were happy with the status quo.
Tulsasaurus Rex
Civic Leader
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 288


« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2015, 08:01:10 am »

Also, isn't BrickHugger redeveloping the white building across the street (name?)? I know that has a small lot, but its entirely possible that a deal has been worked out between them and there is little or no "extra" parking.

Yes Brickhugger is developing that and it's called the Hartford Building. Not to be confused with the former Hartford Commons—now the Edge—across 2nd Street to the South.
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1135757789771796&id=181792495168335

Logged
TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
Philanthropist
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 601



« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2015, 08:03:44 am »

So glad they've gone (sort of) public with this! This has the potential to be amazing.

Regardless of the mix of parking, 2.5 spaces/ 1000 sq ft is way better than "barely lower than most suburban developments." Retailers have internal parking standards they pretty much adhere to when they go into commercial developments. Take REI as an example: in their development standards, they require a minimum of 5 spaces per 1,000 sq ft. Their minimum is even higher than Tulsa's 1960s-model parking ordinance (4.44 for retail). The real estate manager for Home Depot HQ told me 4.5-5 spaces / 1000 sq ft is their minimum requirement. Olive Garden? 17-19 spacer per 1,000 sq ft. This holds true for most retail developments in Tulsa. And all those folks build is surface parking with the bare minimum of landscaping required to scrape by.

That said, I'll gladly take a take a large parking garage with retail on the first level that has an internal parking ratio of 2.5/1000, surrounded with other uses (hotel, apartments, office, hotel).

To those who complain about a perceived lack of multiple uses ("It's all retail, it's going to be dead at certain hours"), only the first floor is shown. Retail/restaurants get the first floor. But there's 170,000 square feet of office space included in this mix, too, in addition to nearly 300 apartments and a hotel. That's a pretty good mix, and should keep things lively.

600,000 thanks to Nelson + Stowe! This is awesome!

I agree, this parking garage is a good thing. I could see it being a central parking hub for the surrounding areas. I would certainly park there for $2-5. This kind of development must accommodate the typical suburban family who want easy parking every time. Street parking will NOT be an option for most everyone after all of the current planned projects are complete. It could be tougher than finding street parking at Brady on a Friday on a regular basis. Having a huge parking garage in the middle of all of this could be a big plus. The majority of the 2 blocks is ground-floor retail to make up for that.
Logged
TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
Philanthropist
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 601



« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2015, 08:08:12 am »

No, it's still there at the bottom of the hotel. It's the Santa Fe Depot, thus the name.

I am glad the plans look like they're preserving the Santa Fe building and adding on to make the hotel. I was concerned such a large new development would start over with a clean slate.

This looks like it could be a $60,000,000+ development (just doing $100/ft2), completely ignoring parking which might be another 36,250,000 (at $25k/space)! So this is a substantial high-dollar development which could be the new anchor of downtown and create the retail/restaurant centerpiece that has been talked about on this board for a long time. $100 million is a huge chunk of the current list of developments! It would be a great addition. Hopefully they can get some popular retailers to move from south Tulsa.
Logged
rdj
City Father
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1583



« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2015, 08:27:42 am »

My understanding was Brickhugger was going to do a grocery story and residential development on the Hartford property with minimal parking and this development would provide parking for both.  Maybe I misunderstood or mis-remembered since it's been at least 3-4 months since that conversation.
Logged

Live Generous.  Live Blessed.
DTowner
City Father
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1252


« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2015, 08:28:59 am »

It is important to keep in mind this development would replace one of the largest contiguous surface lots downtown.  While it is not full on a typical day, it does have a fair amount of monthly parking accounts and gets substantial use on evenings/weekends, even more so when the Drillers are playing.  As a result, the parking in this development needs to serve not only the new residents and customers in the development, but also the surrounding businesses that are dependent upon the current surface lot (a number of which Nelson owns, so it makes sense he is looking out for that concern).  Having this parking garage could also help hasten the development of that gravel lot east of McNellies/Albert G’s.
Logged
TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
Philanthropist
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 601



« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2015, 09:36:12 am »

It is important to keep in mind this development would replace one of the largest contiguous surface lots downtown.  While it is not full on a typical day, it does have a fair amount of monthly parking accounts and gets substantial use on evenings/weekends, even more so when the Drillers are playing.  As a result, the parking in this development needs to serve not only the new residents and customers in the development, but also the surrounding businesses that are dependent upon the current surface lot (a number of which Nelson owns, so it makes sense he is looking out for that concern).  Having this parking garage could also help hasten the development of that gravel lot east of McNellies/Albert G’s.

Good points!

Something definitely needs to be done about that gravel parking lot! That is a complete eye sore and makes for a really bad "welcome to downtown Tulsa!" Reminds me of parking on a grass lot in Deep Ellum in Dallas. Bad start to what was an ok time there (10 years ago).
Logged
DowntownDan
Philanthropist
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 782


« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2015, 09:47:38 am »

More structured parking means less surface parking so I'm all for it.  We also want suburbanites to come back to the core for dinner and entertainment and they love their cars.  Lets do all we can to promote pedestrianism, trolleys, light rail, etc., but understand that there are a large group that will never abandon their cars and we want their money downtown too.
Logged
TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
Philanthropist
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 601



« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2015, 01:37:14 pm »

Well now it is really official! Tulsa World article:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/santa-fe-square-to-bring-retail-office-apartments-and-a/article_35ca9da3-d7a9-562e-8a69-4ca43cb562df.html

Quote
Nelson Stowe developers is relatively new, but the firm has developed, co-developed or planned four residential and retail projects in the downtown area.
It turns out they were getting warmed up for their biggest project.
Santa Fe Square, planned on two full city blocks bordered by First and Second streets and Elgin and Greenwood avenues, will feature a 600,000 square feet of retail, office space, 291 apartments and a 105-room hotel.
Restauranteur Elliot Nelson, half of Nelson Stowe along with Casey Stowe, said they've partnered with American Residential Group and undisclosed office and hotel developers for the ambitious project, which continues their push to improve downtown Tulsa.
“We’re always looking for ways to keep building downtown and make it better, and there’s always a need for more retail and living spaces,” he said.
Nelson said they'll submit permitting applications to the city soon, in anticipation for an opening by the third or fourth quarter of 2017. They are seeking retail tenants with the help of Walman Commercial Real Estate Services.
The site is currently a large parking lot, save for the shuttered Santa Fe rail depot building on the northwest corner that serves as the site's namesake, Nelson said.
That building will be redeveloped and expanded into a 105-room hotel with an attached bar and restaurant and courtyard in the middle, Nelson said.
The 80,000 square feet of ground-floor retail will be spread over multiple buildings throughout most of the rest of the development, with suites ranging from 1,000 to 40,000 square feet, Nelson said.
The buildings in the development will include a brick-paved pedestrian plaza with a retail arcade, which will run under archways with building space suspended above them.
Nelson said they'd like to attract some restaurants with patio space on the plaza, but their biggest hope is for more shops in the area.
“We’ve got a good intensity of bars and restaurants in the neighborhood already, so we’re looking to diversify," he said.
Additionally, 170,000 square feet of office space for executive or medical use will be on upper floors, Nelson said. He noted new construction of downtown office space has slowed in the last 15 years, other than One Place by the BOK Center.
The 291 apartments, which will also overlook the ground-floor retail, will include a rooftop pool.
Santa Fe will be constructed on what's currently 400 parking spaces and feature a parking garage with 1,450 parking spaces available, Nelson said.
“We want the site to be as dense as possible while still providing parking,” he said.
This is the fifth project associated with Nelson Stowe. The group finished renovations on the Coliseum Apartments, 635 S. Elgin Ave., last month. The formerly dilapidated building now features 36 studio apartments.
Nelson Stowe has also partnered with American Residential Group on The Edge, a $26 million, 162-unit development at 215 S. Greenwood Ave. that’s under construction now.
The group is also developing The Boxyard, a retail-focused center at the southeast corner of Third Street and Frankfort Avenue that will be built out of over 30 large metal shipping containers. Dwelling Spaces, Joebot’s Coffee Bar and Masa restaurant will be the anchor tenants.
Nelson Stowe planned the redevelopment of the Gates Hardware building at 216 N. Elgin Ave. across from ONEOK Field until it was purchased by KSQ Architects, which is now heading the $5.2 million redevelopment.
When that development is finished in September, KSQ will move into the upper floor, while Nelson and Marshall Brewing Co. will open up a brew pub on the ground floor.
Logged
SXSW
City Father
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3416


WWW
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2015, 01:49:01 pm »

Good points!

Something definitely needs to be done about that gravel parking lot! That is a complete eye sore and makes for a really bad "welcome to downtown Tulsa!" Reminds me of parking on a grass lot in Deep Ellum in Dallas. Bad start to what was an ok time there (10 years ago).

The small lot west of McNellies is worse IMO, because it's also on Elgin next to the main through route from Blue Dome to the ballpark and Brady District.  Also the vacant (but awesome) brick building across the street that is begging to be redeveloped.  By activating 1st in that area it makes that redevelopment easier if the property owners are willing (which could be the case).

The plan shows a 28,000 SF retail space on 1st, I wonder what they're targeting there?  That's twice as big as a Trader Joe's.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 01:56:12 pm by SXSW » Logged

 
SXSW
City Father
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3416


WWW
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2015, 03:37:32 pm »

Looking at the rendering again, is the entire eastern half the parking garage with just shallow retail space at the base?  I wonder why you wouldn't just wrap the apartments around the parking garage.   
Logged

 
TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
Philanthropist
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 601



« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2015, 09:19:20 am »

You make a good point.  I am hopeful this development group is a tad bit more principled/stubborn about their vision/project.  That said, I have to wonder if this project will be completed in phases over a number of years.

I think they'll have to do it in phases. Hotel seems like quickest build, then apartments/office space. Then the bigger  buildings and parking garage. Will they make some of it part of the Vision package? Will they use TIF?

They say late 2017, but considering the magnitude of the project and funds required (at LEAST $100 million), I'd wager the place won't be ready until 2018 at the earliest.

They partnered with American Residential for at least one project and are partnered again on this. American Residential is really on the ball with downtown stuff so far so lets hope they can get the funding regardless of TIF/Vision proposals. Obviously Nelson has done really well too so we should trust he will keep the project true to plan but when it comes down to saving millions, it will be hard to stick to the elaborate plan.
Logged
Conan71
Recovering Republican
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 28709



« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2015, 10:14:24 am »

Keep in mind, Elliot & Casey are current stakeholders downtown and thus far, Elliott has supported and produced quality development which compliments downtown.  I’d say he’s probably one of the more principled developers in downtown.  My only question is how they can raise the estimated $100M for this project and have it completed in two years.  That’s the only part that seems slightly beyond reality.
Logged

"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first” -Ronald Reagan
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 10   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

 
  Hosted by TulsaConnect and Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
 

Mission

 

"TulsaNow's Mission is to help Tulsa become the most vibrant, diverse, sustainable and prosperous city of our size. We achieve this by focusing on the development of Tulsa's distinctive identity and economic growth around a dynamic, urban core, complemented by a constellation of livable, thriving communities."
more...

 

Contact

 

2210 S Main St.
Tulsa, OK 74114
(918) 409-2669
info@tulsanow.org