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Author Topic: Davenport Urban Lofts  (Read 110758 times)
TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #150 on: April 22, 2019, 08:51:03 am »

I think the $600K Urban 8 units were partially unfinished, so the move-in price was higher.

In the past I assumed that the problem with selling downtown condos was the lack of customers willing to take a chance on buying when there are plenty of options to test the waters of urban living by renting.  However, it seems the downtown residential scene is now mature enough that there should be a customer base for buying, yet the condo market is struggling, even as limited as the options are.  Perhaps the majority of upper income empty nesters looking to downsize to a condo see Utica Place, Yorktown or 2300 Riverside as much safer investments.


But the Urban 8 were also free-standing structures with their own garages and ~3,400 square feet (double what Davenport's $600k  units are!). Finishing them out was supposed to be around $60-$120k. Still far far less for far more house and amenities.

There is virtually no demand for high priced Downtown living. Look at this stand-alone home that was for sell for over 2 years and finally sold for around $100/sq-ft:
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/208-S-Guthrie-Ave-Tulsa-OK-74103/2101119128_zpid/

That place was incredibly nice. The location by the BOK isn't ideal, but still it was an incredible deal for $100/square foot, and it sold right around the time when real estate prices peaked. That is a really bad sign for condos trying to sell for $400/square foot that thousands of people passed up on that place for years at far less than half the price per square foot.
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Townsend
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« Reply #151 on: April 22, 2019, 10:48:17 am »



There is virtually no demand for high priced Downtown living. Look at this stand-alone home that was for sell for over 2 years and finally sold for around $100/sq-ft:
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/208-S-Guthrie-Ave-Tulsa-OK-74103/2101119128_zpid/

That place was incredibly nice. The location by the BOK isn't ideal, but still it was an incredible deal for $100/square foot, and it sold right around the time when real estate prices peaked. That is a really bad sign for condos trying to sell for $400/square foot that thousands of people passed up on that place for years at far less than half the price per square foot.


To me, that location is horrible.  I'd hate to look across the street and see that every day.
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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #152 on: April 22, 2019, 11:50:23 am »

To me, that location is horrible.  I'd hate to look across the street and see that every day.

I'd hate to look out and see all the empty desolate lots and industrial buildings around Davenport which have been there looking cruddy for decades or the massive highway all around which will be more prominent from above (As shown here: ).

With how awesome the interior of the house by the BOK Center is and the fact that it's an easy bicycle ride to a huge number of jobs and some of the best entertainment in Tulsa, it is a bad sign they only got $100/square foot for a new build with such high end interior design in the IDL. Nice Houses in the Brady Heights area often get far more than $100/square foot.

That's a tremendous leap expecting $400/square foot, especially when there's blighted lots around that particular spot. You won't have a private 2-lane garage, yard, and it's less than half the size. It's a ludicrous price that fails to consider recent housing sales in the IDL. Also, it seems like a big corporation will eventually come in and build a nice scaled-up condo to capture that market, and they'll probably do it at more reasonable price points.
They do have the listings up on MLS now. $985k for the 2,400 ft2 condo:
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/2095815820_zpid/globalrelevanceex_sort/36.166168,-95.976713,36.139521,-96.005938_rect/14_zm/

That is outrageous. You can spend less than half that to get a similar sized place in the nicest neighborhoods in Midtown, or double the square footage for same price. I was thinking the most expensive units might be around $800k for 3,000 square feet. It's good to dream, but not to be delusional.


The acoustic walls are only around the master bedrooms, so no leaving the doors open while you sleep and hope the people in the other bedrooms don't mind the noise.
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Conan71
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« Reply #153 on: April 22, 2019, 01:11:06 pm »

It didn't help for Urban 8. Or for 100 Boulder.

Urban 8's price point was higher and 100 boulder is just not that attractive.  What are the price points on that project and estimated occupancy now?
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« Reply #154 on: April 22, 2019, 01:18:23 pm »

There is virtually no demand for high priced Downtown living. Look at this stand-alone home that was for sell for over 2 years and finally sold for around $100/sq-ft:
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/208-S-Guthrie-Ave-Tulsa-OK-74103/2101119128_zpid/

With the exception of being directly next to the county jail, that might be the single worst location for a house in all of the IDL.  Being the only house for blocks is not really a strong selling point.

Davenport has all sorts of issues in my mind, but high priced apartments downtown have been successful so I donít think you can say there is no demand for high priced housing.  The issue is getting people to jump from renting to investing long-term as an owner.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #155 on: April 22, 2019, 01:43:39 pm »


I'd hate to look out and see all the empty desolate lots and industrial buildings around Davenport which have been there looking cruddy for decades or the massive highway all around which will be more prominent from above




I would hate to look out through all that glass and realize what it is doing to the energy bill.!!    R-2 at best...probably worse.

I bet they are LEED certified, too! 
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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #156 on: April 22, 2019, 03:13:42 pm »

With the exception of being directly next to the county jail, that might be the single worst location for a house in all of the IDL.  Being the only house for blocks is not really a strong selling point.

Davenport has all sorts of issues in my mind, but high priced apartments downtown have been successful so I donít think you can say there is no demand for high priced housing.  The issue is getting people to jump from renting to investing long-term as an owner.


I said "virtually no demand" and was referring to buying. As evidenced by Urban 8 being on the market for over 5 years and Davenport being on the market 4 years. I don't see any demand or offering of high priced housing downtown even close to what the monthly payment on these will be (~$4,500-$6,000/month excluding HOA). There's only 2 units above $3k downtown and they have 2,800 ft2, far more than the 1,700 ft2 you'd get with Davenport units, and aren't even finished yet. There are a few ~$2500 which could be considered high end, but those are about half of what the Davenport monthly payments would be so not even a good comparison.

Considering the current options, the smart choice for those who want to live in luxury places downtown is to rent. $2,000/month for a high end place is far better than a $4,500 mortgage payment for almost the same thing in terms of space and location. Plus you can move in now. Philtower has some amazing well-priced options when available.
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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #157 on: April 22, 2019, 03:19:01 pm »

With the exception of being directly next to the county jail, that might be the single worst location for a house in all of the IDL.  Being the only house for blocks is not really a strong selling point.


Not really, being next to OSU-Medical Center or where Central Park Condos are would be worse and obviously all of NW downtown would be far worse, by all of the homeless day centers, juvenile center and like you said the Jail. Gun Boat District would be worse. Most of South Downtown is worse than that in terms of isolation. You can walk a couple blocks to library and several restaurants. Far better walkability than most of Tulsa and easy walk/bicycle to any downtown job.
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swake
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« Reply #158 on: April 22, 2019, 03:36:39 pm »

Not really, being next to OSU-Medical Center or where Central Park Condos are would be worse and obviously all of NW downtown would be far worse, by all of the homeless day centers, juvenile center and like you said the Jail. Gun Boat District would be worse. Most of South Downtown is worse than that in terms of isolation. You can walk a couple blocks to library and several restaurants. Far better walkability than most of Tulsa and easy walk/bicycle to any downtown job.

208 S Guthrie IS by the Juvenile Justice Center and the Day Center for the homeless. And by DHS and is all of four blocks from OSU Med and the jail. And beyond location it looks like you are living in a converted garage with a lovely view of a massive HVAC plant. And you would have no neighbors and likely never will. I'm actually shocked they got $400k for that.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2019, 03:39:37 pm by swake » Logged
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« Reply #159 on: April 22, 2019, 04:13:45 pm »

This is a pretty rad view


And I like the views of the Osage hills to the northwest at least from the higher floors
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Jacobei
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« Reply #160 on: April 23, 2019, 10:33:07 am »

Not really, being next to OSU-Medical Center or where Central Park Condos are would be worse and obviously all of NW downtown would be far worse, by all of the homeless day centers, juvenile center and like you said the Jail. Gun Boat District would be worse. Most of South Downtown is worse than that in terms of isolation. You can walk a couple blocks to library and several restaurants. Far better walkability than most of Tulsa and easy walk/bicycle to any downtown job.

As a current resident of Renaissance Uptown, what's wrong with being over here near the Central Park Condos?  This is the closest thing downtown has to a residential node.  I can walk to 5th and Boston in 12 minutes.  I can walk to the Cellar Dweller in 2.  I'm 2 blocks from the Library.  This is a great part of Downtown.  If anything, this is the part of downtown that should be better served.  But that's for another thread.
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« Reply #161 on: April 23, 2019, 11:27:41 am »

As a current resident of Renaissance Uptown, what's wrong with being over here near the Central Park Condos?  This is the closest thing downtown has to a residential node.  I can walk to 5th and Boston in 12 minutes.  I can walk to the Cellar Dweller in 2.  I'm 2 blocks from the Library.  This is a great part of Downtown.  If anything, this is the part of downtown that should be better served.  But that's for another thread.

I agree and wish that area was better connected to the rest of downtown.  The area just east of Denver and south of 6th is ripe for additional residential development that complements Renaissance Uptown and Central Park Towers.  Denver Ave is the southern gateway for many to downtown and events at the BOK Center and could use a facelift. I was hoping to see the old Safeway turned into a small grocery store.
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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #162 on: April 23, 2019, 12:06:22 pm »

208 S Guthrie IS by the Juvenile Justice Center and the Day Center for the homeless. And by DHS and is all of four blocks from OSU Med and the jail. And beyond location it looks like you are living in a converted garage with a lovely view of a massive HVAC plant. And you would have no neighbors and likely never will. I'm actually shocked they got $400k for that.

That is ridiculous. It is as far from those things as these new condos are from the heart of the Brady or John 3:16. It is actually further away. With that logic, the entire Brady District is right by the Day Center so must be terrible. A stand-alone house there shouldn't even be worth $400k! Obviously, downtown is pretty dynamic in that a few blocks makes a huge difference. That spot isn't great but neither is the condos spot right now.

And yet you think they'll get $985k for a 2,500 square foot condo? Next to a noisy music district and loud highway... They might've found 10 mostly-friends to sign on with this in 4+ years since announcing (They had 9 sold in 2016, so 1 presale in 3 years), but they'll need to drop the prices down to about half of that if they want to sell the rest in the next 4 years.


You also said:
These aren't pricing at $450, it's more like half that. Urban 8 might be closer to $400, but not this one.

When actually they are $600k, so you were off by a factor of 3 when guessing what the price would be. Maybe you were guessing what the price eventually should be to sell and I'd agree that the smallest units need to be designed around $250k to sell, but the developers went the opposite way, which will almost certainly be a big problem when they need to start paying for unsold condos.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 12:08:11 pm by TulsaGoldenHurriCAN » Logged
swake
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« Reply #163 on: April 23, 2019, 01:23:24 pm »

That is ridiculous. It is as far from those things as these new condos are from the heart of the Brady or John 3:16. It is actually further away. With that logic, the entire Brady District is right by the Day Center so must be terrible. A stand-alone house there shouldn't even be worth $400k! Obviously, downtown is pretty dynamic in that a few blocks makes a huge difference. That spot isn't great but neither is the condos spot right now.

And yet you think they'll get $985k for a 2,500 square foot condo? Next to a noisy music district and loud highway... They might've found 10 mostly-friends to sign on with this in 4+ years since announcing (They had 9 sold in 2016, so 1 presale in 3 years), but they'll need to drop the prices down to about half of that if they want to sell the rest in the next 4 years.

208 S Guthrie is slightly more than one block from the Juvenile Justice Center. The center is on a superblock bounded from Elwood to Guthrie and Archer to 1st with a rail line on the south side of the block along 1st.  One block. And you are the one that defined being next to OSU Med, anywhere in NW downtown and for some unknown reason the Central Park Condos and Gunboat Park as being awful, not me. And myself, I'd be more bothered by the one single block from the Guthrie house to DHS, not the Juvenile Justice Center.

And yes, the distance between 208 S Guthrie and the Juvenile Justice Center is the same distance as the Davenport site to the heart of the Arts District. Again, one block. That would be a plus to the Davenport site. Not to mention the block Davenport is in includes the Cains and will include OKPop by the time the condos are ready.


You also said:
When actually they are $600k, so you were off by a factor of 3 when guessing what the price would be. Maybe you were guessing what the price eventually should be to sell and I'd agree that the smallest units need to be designed around $250k to sell, but the developers went the opposite way, which will almost certainly be a big problem when they need to start paying for unsold condos.

Well congratulations to you for knowing more than me. Because when I posted that four years ago the developers were stating the condos would be 2,000 square feet at $450,000. $225 a square foot. Can you tell me what half of $450 is? And I wasn't guessing, it was the stated pricing at the time. Now it's starting at $353 a square foot. The math being the smallest condo at $600,000 for 1,700 sq ft.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 01:28:22 pm by swake » Logged
TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #164 on: April 23, 2019, 03:44:54 pm »

208 S Guthrie is slightly more than one block from the Juvenile Justice Center. The center is on a superblock bounded from Elwood to Guthrie and Archer to 1st with a rail line on the south side of the block along 1st.  One block. And you are the one that defined being next to OSU Med, anywhere in NW downtown and for some unknown reason the Central Park Condos and Gunboat Park as being awful, not me.


Don't attribute words to me which I didn't say. I did not say those parts were awful, just that they were worse than the spot where the 4,200 square foot stand-alone house is by the BOK Center. I'd rather live in that spot than those others I mentioned. None are that bad, but that location is ideal for getting to much more key parts of downtown.

Davenport is also the same distance to John 3:16 mission or 1 block from the empty post-apocalyptic-looking wasteland north of I244. So not exactly a great spot either. The stand-alone house is a far better product that was for sale for several years, but they think they'll get quadruple the price based on a bit better location alone?


Well congratulations to you for knowing more than me. Because when I posted that four years ago the developers were stating the condos would be 2,000 square feet at $450,000. $225 a square foot. Can you tell me what half of $450 is? And I wasn't guessing, it was the stated pricing at the time. Now it's starting at $353 a square foot. The math being the smallest condo at $600,000 for 1,700 sq ft.


Once again, you're falsely attributing words to people. They did not say the condos would be $450k. They said "starting at" $450k and listed the range from around 1,600 to 2,600 square feet. The price was never announced to be anywhere close to $200k.

The most expensive units are $985,000 for 2,480 square feet which is right at $400/square foot.
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