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November 18, 2017, 04:15:29 am
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Author Topic: City Councilor Wants Red Light Cameras -- again.  (Read 7472 times)
patric
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« on: November 20, 2014, 09:54:18 pm »

TULSA, Okla. — Tulsa city leaders are considering a technology upgrade for law enforcement that until recently they had thought was illegal in Oklahoma.
The city council was told for years that red-light cameras at intersections were illegal, but they recently found out that isn’t true.
“This law that we’ve always been hearing about that says we can’t have them doesn’t exist,” said city councilor G.T. Bynum.
Councilors are trying to find ways to improve public safety beyond hiring more officers.
The council plans to study what has happened in other cities with the cameras.
“Have they been easily abused by people in a position of power and if they have, how do you prevent that?” Bynum asked.
Another concern is that the cameras will be used as a way for the city to make money off of people who drive illegally.
“The reality is we’re looking at this because people die in car accidents because people run red lights,” Bynum said.

http://www.fox23.com/news/news/local/tulsa-city-leaders-consider-adding-red-light-camer/njCNP/



Hey Bynum, its still illegal, and dishonest.




AAA Withdraws Its Support For Traffic Cameras
    One of the foremost advocates of traffic safety has withdrawn support for the traffic camera enforcement program after city officials conceded revenue was a primary motivation.

http://www.rense.com/general30/with.htm





In roughly 24 cities in nine states, voters have passed ballot initiatives rejecting cameras, with decisions passing in eight of the cities last year alone. Also last year, the Los Angeles police commission voted to end the city's program.
In Houston, city officials denied that their support of cameras was motivated by money. Yet one state lawmaker from Houston admitted in a local radio interview that he voted for a bill authorizing the camera program at the behest of city officials and despite believing "it's really a revenue source."
A study by the consumer advocacy group U.S. PIRG addressed the financial incentives behind camera programs. PIRG found that many contracts between local governments and camera companies require the parties to divide revenue from fines. Some contracts mandate the narrowest duration of yellow lights, preventing governments from lengthening the time — which could reduce the number of violators ticketed.
In addition, some groups that promote camera enforcement programs receive funding from the camera manufacturers. For instance, the National Coalition for Safer Roads draws some of its support from one of the nation's biggest vendors, Arizona-based American Traffic Solutions, which had supplied Houston's cameras.

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/whats-driving-backlash-against-traffic-cameras





Thousands of Chicago drivers have been tagged with $100 red light fines they did not deserve, targeted by robotic cameras during a series of sudden spikes in tickets that city officials say they cannot explain, a Tribune investigation has found.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-red-light-camera-ticket-spikes-met-20140717-story.html





Local and state governments across the country are tapping the brakes on red-light cameras.
Seven states currently ban them altogether, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures, and several more, including Ohio and Florida, are considering such prohibitions.
Studies of whether cameras, typically mounted on fixtures beside the road, improve traffic safety are numerous and often point to contradictory conclusions. But an increasing number of city and county officials are questioning their worth—and pulling the plug.
They cite the hassles of dealing with erroneous tickets and complaints from drivers, many of whom perceive the cameras as invasive.

Mostly, however, officials point to studies that claim the cameras do little to reduce accidents—and in some cases may increase them.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304071004579407413358714386





Since 1991, there have been a total of 35 election contests in Arizona, California, Illinois, Louisiana, Maryland, Missouri, New Jersey, New Mexico, Ohio, Texas, Washington. With few exceptions, automated ticketing has failed by as much as 86 percent. One city did embrace the use of cameras after uniformed police officers were dispatched to go door-to-door to "encourage" citizens to keep the ticketing system in place.
http://www.citizenstoabolishredlightcameras.com/





Tickets issued due to red-light cameras are illegal, says Florida court
An appeals court decides that in Florida, private companies that operate red-light cameras have no right to send out tickets.
A human court, however, has decided that a current form of automated law enforcement is actually unenforceable, at least in Florida.
The judges mulled the fact that private owners of red-light cameras were the ones who sent out tickets. The Fourth District Court of Appeals said "The City is not authorized to delegate police power by entering into a contract that allows a private vendor to screen data and decide whether a violation has occurred before sending that data to a traffic infraction enforcement officer to use as the basis for authorizing a citation."

http://www.cnet.com/news/tickets-issued-due-to-red-light-cameras-are-illegal-says-florida-court/





The ACLU believes that the use of red light camera systems should be halted or delayed until the due process and privacy issues they raise have been properly settled.

There are two issues of fundamental fairness with the cameras that affect the right to due process under the law. First, the tickets are sent to the owner of a car, who was not necessarily the person committing the alleged violation. The burden of proof usually then falls on the owner to prove he or she was not driving at the time. This is a violation of the bedrock American principle that the accused be considered innocent until proven guilty.

Second, many red-light camera systems have been installed under contracts that deliver a cut of ticket revenue to the contractor. That creates an obvious incentive to contractors to "game" the system in order to increase revenue and in turn generates public cynicism and suspicion. Such bounty contracts make a mockery of the ideal of disinterested justice and undermine the pursuit of traffic safety.

https://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/aclu-urges-halt-use-red-light-cameras-until-privacy-and-fairness-issues-are-a


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« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2014, 08:14:34 am »

Public safety's donkey.....It's a form of taxes....
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patric
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« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2014, 12:07:27 pm »

Public safety's donkey.....It's a form of taxes....

Maybe he just wants outraged citizns to do his research for him.  Doesnt he have staff?


City issued speed camera ticket to motionless car
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/sun-investigates/bs-md-speed-camera-stopped-car-20121212-story.html

Camera contractor Xerox State and Local Solutions says each potential citation goes through two layers of review to weed out any that have a deficiency, such as an illegible license plate.

Then a police officer must review the citation before approving it for issuance to the vehicle owner. Each citation says the officer swears or affirms that the car was going at least 12 mph over the speed limit "based on inspection of the recorded images." The officer's signature is also printed.
The department has said that a single officer can review up to 1,200 citations in a given day.
Gov. Martin O'Malley said Tuesday that state law bars contractors from being paid based on the number of citations.


http://video.baltimoresun.com/?ndn.trackingGroup=91005&ndn.siteSection=baltimoresunstudio_hom_non_fro&ndn.videoId=23970982&freewheel=91005&sitesection=baltimoresunstudio_hom_non_fro&vid=23970982


My understanding is state statutes essentially say a car's driver can commit an offense, not the car, so you would actually have to ticket the driver.
Maybe that was stricken (or ignored) to allow the PikePass system?
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 12:11:09 pm by patric » Logged

"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
dbacksfan 2.0
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« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2014, 03:56:41 am »

A funny story regarding photo radar on a freeway.....

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/the-147-mph-hyundai-sonata-car-news

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/news/article_d1ef82fb-45b6-5556-986f-7a45c7b8f6b8.html?mode=jqm



Living in Arizona red light and speed photo radar were are part of driving life. I got caught by a mobile photo radar doing 47 in a 35 in a well known trap zone. Could not argue the ticket as the photo clearly showed me uttering the word "FUDGE!". Spent $98.00 and 8 hours in a traffic school.

As for the effectiveness that I noted from information from the traffic department in the city I worked for as well as through the news, while red light cameras were effective at reducing T-Bone accidents in intersections, it seemed to increase the number of rear end collisions. It was more or less a trade off.

As for the speed cameras on the highways, those became more of a joke, because if the person driving the vehicle is not the registered owner, they could not enforce the fine. Too many people had cars that were registered as owned by one spouse but driven by the other. My former SIL that lives in Las Vegas got 3 photo radar tickets for a vehicle that was registered to her, but she was not the driver and did not have to identify who was driving.

The other issue they had, which resulted on a crack down by all of the surrounding cities was there was a mountain of tickets that were issued to police cars that were not officially responding to anything. Some of them were just transporting in custody people to the Maricopa County Jail and were routinely driving 15mph over the limit.

There was one case where a LEO was caught speeding through a red light camera that was crucial to a fatal accident investigation. (trying to find a cite for it) The officer was caught at 10+mph over the posted going through a red light before he hit a civilian and caused a fatal accident. The officer claimed he was running lights and siren, but the photo showed no emergency lights displayed.

The other thing I found from my own personal experience, is that the photo radar on the freeways, did nothing more than create accordion choke points where everyone suddenly slowed down, then speed back up, instead of maintaining a good flow. Maybe that's part of the reason they abandoned freeway photo radar.

Admittedly I am not a fan of photo enforcement, it just doesn't hold up to the promise they make.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 04:23:16 am by dbacksfan 2.0 » Logged
sgrizzle
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« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2014, 10:48:45 am »


“This law that we’ve always been hearing about that says we can’t have them doesn’t exist,” said city councilor G.T. Bynum.



Hey Bynum, its still illegal, and dishonest.



Can you reconcile these two statements?
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Red Arrow
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« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2014, 11:34:36 am »

I got caught by a mobile photo radar doing 47 in a 35 in a well known trap zone.

Just curious, why were you doing 47?
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dbacksfan 2.0
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« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2014, 12:02:08 pm »

Just curious, why were you doing 47?

It was on a main north/south where the speed is 45mph, and as you go north, the road curves to the east and within a 1/4 mile stretch the speed goes from 45 to 35 as you round the corner. It was a notorious speed trap as people did not slow going around the curve. Just was going with the flow of traffic and had a momentary lapse of reason and got nailed, along with 6 other cars.
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Townsend
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« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2014, 12:04:13 pm »

Just curious, why were you doing 47?

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RecycleMichael
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« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2014, 12:24:36 pm »

I was at the council committee meeting and listened to the discussion. I heard councilor Bynum and he didn't seem out of line asking questions about red light cameras. He didn't appear to be rabidly in favor of them, just wanted to inquire about a legal opinion.

Councilor Cue asked about facial recognition cameras and he said he didn't want to expand any request. He just wanted a legal opinion at this time. 
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patric
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« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2014, 12:43:30 pm »

Can you reconcile these two statements?


Illegal because we cant endow corporations with police power simply because they are the chosen low bidder, nor can we sidestep the principle that the onus of proof lays on the accuser, not the accused.

Dishonest because we are dressing up taxation as public safety, when there is ample evidence that the stated goal of saving property and lives can be accomplished by measures as simple as signal light synchronization and proper lane markings.

The National Motorists Association urges communities to try its recommended "engineering solutions." If the alternatives don't reduce red-light violations by 50 percent, the motorists association has promised to give any community $10,000 for other traffic-safety programs.

http://www.motorists.org/red-light-cameras/alternatives
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« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2014, 04:12:17 pm »



An F14 is a bunch faster than any street legal car I know about.   Grin

I know the need for speed.  Just not in a known speed trap.   Sad

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Red Arrow
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« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2014, 04:20:02 pm »

Just was going with the flow of traffic and had a momentary lapse of reason and got nailed, along with 6 other cars.

I hate it when that happens.  I was riding with some friends going home after one of the 1970s Gran Prix races at Watkins Glen, NY when the NY State Police pulled over about a half dozen cars. The police had a few cars and cops on the highway downstream from the radar car.  They were pointing to individual cars in person. 
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dbacksfan 2.0
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« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2014, 07:49:56 pm »

I hate it when that happens.  I was riding with some friends going home after one of the 1970s Gran Prix races at Watkins Glen, NY when the NY State Police pulled over about a half dozen cars. The police had a few cars and cops on the highway downstream from the radar car.  They were pointing to individual cars in person.  

In 2005 the revamped the area and changed the speed limit to 40mph but they still heavily photo radar that stretch. It's an odd area because it's where Phoenix, Snottsdale, and Paradise Valley all meet in one spot.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/4574+E+McDonald+Dr,+Paradise+Valley,+AZ+85253/@33.5237985,-111.9806465,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x872b0cea3fe1d0bb:0xbebe22778fdfb2c4?hl=en



Also, being a operator for Redflex is a deadly job when an unbalanced individual makes a statement about their feelings on photo radar.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/08/20/20100820man-sentenced-for-killing-speed-camera-operator.html

« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 07:52:09 pm by dbacksfan 2.0 » Logged
dbacksfan 2.0
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« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2014, 07:58:27 pm »



Naahh..... I'm more Elwood Blues.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTOg4aYGtdY[/youtube]
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« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2014, 03:05:32 pm »

In 2005 the revamped the area and changed the speed limit to 40mph but they still heavily photo radar that stretch. It's an odd area because it's where Phoenix, Snottsdale, and Paradise Valley all meet in one spot.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/4574+E+McDonald+Dr,+Paradise+Valley,+AZ+85253/@33.5237985,-111.9806465,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x872b0cea3fe1d0bb:0xbebe22778fdfb2c4?hl=en



Also, being a operator for Redflex is a deadly job when an unbalanced individual makes a statement about their feelings on photo radar.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/08/20/20100820man-sentenced-for-killing-speed-camera-operator.html



Only one I personally recall seeing in the greater Phoenix area was right near Roger Penske’s automotive complex.
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"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first” -Ronald Reagan
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