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October 19, 2018, 12:40:42 am
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Author Topic: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa  (Read 220530 times)
BKDotCom
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« Reply #1170 on: October 03, 2018, 01:27:59 pm »

It's also legal to carry around a jar of human feces.

Open or closed container?
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Ed W
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« Reply #1171 on: October 03, 2018, 02:39:04 pm »

This seems like senseless incitement. I get their point. I get that criminals won't follow rules. But the law-abiding registered owners should just continue to carry concealed as they do anywhere else. I'm thankful there are some who would be willing to stop an active shooter and save lives (see OKC lake situation last year at a place that might've had no gun sign).

This stunts seems like throwing a hive of bees at a bear, looking to infuriate both sides. I see nothing good coming of this escalation. Go get your day in court if that's what this is about, but just because something is legal to do doesn't mean it's not crazy. It's also legal to carry around a jar of human feces.

The problem stems from whether this is public or private property. As I understand it, the city owns the land and leases it to the park. River Park administers it and has a policy allowing guns elsewhere, but not at the Gathering. Someone wrote that it's on the assessors roll as private.

I expect a court will eventually have to sort it out.
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« Reply #1172 on: October 03, 2018, 09:14:02 pm »

The problem stems from whether this is public or private property. As I understand it, the city owns the land and leases it to the park. River Park administers it and has a policy allowing guns elsewhere, but not at the Gathering. Someone wrote that it's on the assessors roll as private.

I expect a court will eventually have to sort it out.

Kaiser bought the land, donated it to the City with an agreement that they lease it to the Gathering Place's LLC. Riverparks and Gathering Place are both administrators of the park, but it's leased to a private entity so its private property technically.

Another good example, River West Park is a public space and you can carry there. Except during Oktoberfest when it is essentially leased to Oktoberfest and the land is private. Oktoberfest can control who comes in and what you are allowed to bring. No guns at Oktoberfest apparently, in a public area.
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Townsend
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« Reply #1173 on: October 04, 2018, 11:17:36 am »

Does everyone trust guys like this to keep your children safe?

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dbacksfan 2.0
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« Reply #1174 on: October 04, 2018, 11:38:03 am »

Does everyone trust guys like this to keep your children safe?



Which one?
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Townsend
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« Reply #1175 on: October 04, 2018, 11:39:40 am »

Which one?

Orange shirt, Red hat, walking like he's got a turtle head poking out
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dbacksfan 2.0
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« Reply #1176 on: October 04, 2018, 11:46:28 am »

Orange shirt, Red hat, walking like he's got a turtle head poking out

I wouldn't trust him to open my beer. Actually he's the type that give serious gun owners a bad name. If I ran into him at a shooting range, I'd leave.
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Tulsa Zephyr
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« Reply #1177 on: October 04, 2018, 02:05:38 pm »

https://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/gun-debate-at-the-oklahoma-city-zoo

The Oklahoma Second Amendment Association tried the same thing at OKC zoo.
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BKDotCom
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« Reply #1178 on: October 04, 2018, 02:17:37 pm »

https://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/gun-debate-at-the-oklahoma-city-zoo

The Oklahoma Second Amendment Association tried the same thing at OKC zoo.

The OKC zoo (like the Tulsa Zoo) isn't a public park.  They can deny guns if they wish.

I was giving the Gathering Place the benefit of the doubt, but having gone over TITLE 21 § 1290.22, I really don't see how they can deny guns.

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TITLE 21 § 1277 B

For purposes of subsection A of this section, the prohibited place does not include and specifically excludes the following property:
4)  Any property designated by a city, town, county or state governmental authority as a park, recreational area, or fairgrounds; provided, nothing in this paragraph shall be construed to authorize any entry by a person in possession of a concealed or unconcealed handgun into any structure, building or office space which is specifically prohibited by the provisions of subsection A of this section;

ok, it's illegal to ban guns on public parks...

But there are exceptions...

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TITLE 21 § 1290.22

No person, property owner, tenant, employer, holder of an event permit, place of worship or business entity shall be permitted to establish any policy or rule that has the effect of prohibiting any person from carrying a concealed or unconcealed firearm on property within the specific exclusion provided for in paragraph 4 of subsection B of Section 1277 of this title; provided that carrying a concealed or unconcealed firearm may be prohibited in the following places:

1) The portion of a public property structure or building during an event authorized by the city, town, county, state or federal governmental authority owning or controlling such building or structure;   (ie Octoberfest)
2) Any public property sports field, including any adjacent seating or adjacent area set aside for viewing a sporting event, where an elementary or secondary school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or an International Olympic Committee or organization or any committee subordinate to the International Olympic Committee event is being held;
3) The fairgrounds during the Oklahoma State Fair or the Tulsa State Fair; and
4) The portion of a public property structure or building that is leased or under contract to a business or not-for-profit entity or group for offices.

I don't see how Gathering Places qualifies as an exception.    Is it an indefinite event?  That undermines the letter of the law.  And if so, where has Tulsa given authorization to operate as such?

Being operated by a private entity is irrelevant

here's what River Parks says
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Tulsa’s Gathering Place is a separate and special park for everyone originally owned by a subsidiary of the George Kaiser Family Foundation which was gifted to the River Parks Authority. Gathering Place opened on September 8, 2018 after four years under construction and transformed 66.5 acres of Tulsa’s waterfront along the Arkansas River into a separate, dynamic and active urban setting to play, relax and gather together. The park includes a lodge, boathouse, nature walks, sporting venues, and two land bridges over Riverside Drive which connects South Tulsa and Downtown Tulsa. Management and operation of the park was retained by a GKFF subsidiary, GGP Parks, LLC.

What is River Parks Authority
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River Parks Authority is a public trust authority created to develop and maintain the public parklands along the Arkansas River in Tulsa County. In Tulsa, there are three separate public park agencies: River Parks Authority, the City of Tulsa Parks Department, and the Tulsa County Park Department.

As much as the 2A guys are being obnoxious about it, they're right as far as I can tell.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2018, 03:54:42 pm by BKDotCom » Logged
TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #1179 on: October 04, 2018, 03:48:33 pm »

https://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/gun-debate-at-the-oklahoma-city-zoo

The Oklahoma Second Amendment Association tried the same thing at OKC zoo.

Same guy? What an attention sucker (cleaned the more common phrase up). Has he nothing better to do? His youtube channel is full of some pretty shameful stuff that would be embarrassing to most decent people, and certainly not the kind of stuff a logical well-grounded person would post online. He's an instigator.

Regardless of whether they may or may not ban open carry, I wouldn't trust this guy to protect anyone or make a sound decision under a real life or death situation. This is an example of a kind of person some people are concerned about freely obtaining guns and bringing them in public with no one judging whether they're mentally competent. Not that there's a good solution, even for police screening.
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« Reply #1180 on: October 05, 2018, 04:38:25 pm »

There is a bucket of money set aside for hiring additional security for the park. 

Im assuming some of that will go to replacing all the dead trees I got to look at up close.  Not to be a naysayer but that has to be an expensive loss, and Im sure they meant well but maybe that was the price for a Grand Opening.  Aside from that I really liked what I saw, and the lighting clearly was thought out more than, say, LaFortune Parks recent "upgrade."
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« Reply #1181 on: October 08, 2018, 08:03:02 am »

Im assuming some of that will go to replacing all the dead trees I got to look at up close.  Not to be a naysayer but that has to be an expensive loss, and Im sure they meant well but maybe that was the price for a Grand Opening.  Aside from that I really liked what I saw, and the lighting clearly was thought out more than, say, LaFortune Parks recent "upgrade."

The trees are warrantied by the nursery that provided them. When you plant 10,000 trees, especially so quickly in an Oklahoma summer in newly landscaped areas, there are bound to be some that don't make it. The labor won't be cheap but they do have full time staff slated for caring for plants. It does seem like they should get to replacing those soon because while October can be a good time to plant, November typically isn't.
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BKDotCom
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« Reply #1182 on: October 08, 2018, 08:49:37 am »

https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/gatheringplace/gun-rights-rally-to-be-staged-outside-gathering-place/article_669b4abe-d294-5392-a7d9-dcef773e6b44.html
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Fredrick Dorwart is an attorney representing GGP Parks LLC, a private subsidiary of the park’s developer, the George Kaiser Family Foundation.

A letter penned by Dorwart says no such park designation by a government arm has taken place.

“Neither the City of Tulsa nor River Parks Authority designated Gathering Place a park,” it reads.


http://www.riverparks.org/parks-information/park-rules-and-faqs/

Quote
Tulsa’s Gathering Place is a separate and special park for everyone

If the legal defense is that River Parks doesn't consider the Gathering Place to be a park, they should probably update their website...   also, call it whatever you want, it's clearly a park.

GKFF gifted a park...   what did River Parks do to make it not a park?
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 09:04:01 am by BKDotCom » Logged
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« Reply #1183 on: October 08, 2018, 09:08:56 am »

https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/gatheringplace/gun-rights-rally-to-be-staged-outside-gathering-place/article_669b4abe-d294-5392-a7d9-dcef773e6b44.html
http://www.riverparks.org/parks-information/park-rules-and-faqs/

If the legal defense is that the Gathering Place isn't a park... perhaps you shouldn't be calling it a park...   also, call it whatever you want, it's clearly a park.

So, a "I'm not a lawyer" question.   Holding aside whether there has been an official designation of a city-owned public park (which seems to be in question),  could the city lease land to an outside entity and let them run the land as a business?  Let's say that I want to open up a free kayak rental - maybe a "kayak park" - on the river.  Could the city carve out some land for me to run as an independent entity, and provide free access and services?  And once in place, could I run that piece of property as fundamentally a private (but free to public) business?  That's basically what seems to be the situation the TGP, just writ very large.   
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AngieB
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« Reply #1184 on: October 08, 2018, 09:16:06 am »

So, a "I'm not a lawyer" question.   Holding aside whether there has been an official designation of a city-owned public park (which seems to be in question),  could the city lease land to an outside entity and let them run the land as a business?  Let's say that I want to open up a free kayak rental - maybe a "kayak park" - on the river.  Could the city carve out some land for me to run as an independent entity, and provide free access and services?  And once in place, could I run that piece of property as fundamentally a private (but free to public) business?  That's basically what seems to be the situation the TGP, just writ very large.   

Isn't that basically what Blue Rose and Elwood's are?
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