Elizabeth Warren Sez!

[Red Arrow]

If only I had played stickball with the royal family. I could have been somebody.

Which royal family?  Saudi?  I have dibs on the Brits to hang around with.

[Red Arrow]

But part of the underlying social contract is you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along."

I think most of "our" differences revolve on how big that hunk should be.

[Gaspar]

Can't throw a shoe in here with out hitting an angry liberal. 

[AquaMan]

I think most of "our" differences revolve on how big that hunk should be.

And that is what Salem says too. In fact it's the one thing it seems most people agree on. How much should be put into the government "box" where the return may not be as good and how much goes into the owners 'box" where it may leverage more return. Rather than analyze and repair the machinery in the government box, deep conservatives just want to seal the box up. Then good luck with getting your goods to market on unfunded roads and falling bridges.

[heironymouspasparagus]

If our friend the successful factory owner pays more taxes than "the rest of us" and employs "the rest of us" and adheres to the same laws and regulations as "the rest of us," then why would we show such anger towards him for not paying even more?  

Because he doesn't pay more than the rest of us.  He pays LESS than the rest of us.

[Gaspar]

And that is what Salem says too. In fact it's the one thing it seems most people agree on. How much should be put into the government "box" where the return may not be as good and how much goes into the owners 'box" where it may leverage more return. Rather than analyze and repair the machinery in the government box, deep conservatives just want to seal the box up. Then good luck with getting your goods to market on unfunded roads and falling bridges.

That's not true.  "Deep conservatives" want a fair tax system where people are taxed at a reasonable rate based on consumption and/or income.

It's the definition of what fair is that we disagree on.  

Most conservatives think (I know I don't speak for everyone, but I doubt you will find disagreement) that the current tax system is a dysfunctional mess, and an impediment to economic growth.  Its logic is broken, and its bureaucracy dwarfs many other industries.

I would hope that non-conservatives would feel the same way.

Beyond band-aids, it is time to discard current tax policy.  

[Gaspar]

Because he doesn't pay more than the rest of us.  He pays LESS than the rest of us.

How?

[AquaMan]

That's not true.  "Deep conservatives" want a fair tax system where people are taxed at a reasonable rate based on consumption and/or income.

It's the definition of what fair is that we disagree on.  

Most conservatives think (I know I don't speak for everyone, but I doubt you will find disagreement) that the current tax system is a dysfunctional mess, and an impediment to economic growth.  Its logic is broken, and its bureaucracy dwarfs many other industries.

I would hope that non-conservatives would feel the same way.

Beyond band-aids, it is time to discard current tax policy.  

Hmm. So in reality, you really are a hopey, changey kind of guy. I've never heard of any tax or any tax rate that someone thought was fair if they had to pay it.

[Gaspar]

Hmm. So in reality, you really are a hopey, changey kind of guy. I've never heard of any tax or any tax rate that someone thought was fair if they had to pay it.

Of course there is.  Taxation is necessary for funding government.

Taxes are fair when everyone pays their fair share based on income or consumption.  Taxes are not fair when a group is forced to pay more than their fair share because they are successful.  That is called a penalty.

[AquaMan]

One wonders if you've ever cut pie or cake for your children.

[Gaspar]

One wonders if you've ever cut pie or cake for your children.

I do, but I treat tax payers as adults.

[AquaMan]

I do, but I treat tax payers as adults.

The more you're around children, the more you understand adult behavior. Seriously, that is why teachers make such good salespeople. Besides their superior organzation skills they recognize behaviors and know the best way to deal with them.

There was one guy who admits he doesn't mind paying taxes and would even be willing to pay more of them if his wealthy friends would too. But you guys crucified Warren when he brought it up.

[Conan71]

And your estimation of my take away is very subjective.

There can be a correlation and business college convinces a lot of people of that otherwise no one would attend. My road experience enlightened me that the most aggressive, the luckiest, the most dishonest, the most instinctual entrepreneur could overcome deficits in all the other criteria you listed and usually did. Its good to have those criteria in the long run for your personal self esteem and salvation but simply not necessary to succeed in business. Business is like nature; amoral, unforgiving of weakness and rewarding to  survivors.

Which reminds me, ever seen the movie/play "How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying"? That and "Tin Men" are very instructional.

Tin Men was a great flick!

I don't agree that business has to be amoral, or unforgiving of weakness, unless you are saying on an etherial plane that it doesn't know morals.

Quite the contrary, one reason the company I work for has been here for 55 years is a high code of ethics and morals.  Certainly there are profiteers out there who have benefitted handsomely while putting thousands of others out of work.  That's not the norm in the business world though, IMO.

Weakness doesn't mean failure and it can be forgiven if management sees the weakness and corrects it, then all is forgiven and everyone chants in a group hug.

[Conan71]

Because he doesn't pay more than the rest of us.  He pays LESS than the rest of us.

I would imagine he's paying a lot more in taxes than I am.  I'd assume he pays himself a salary which is taxed at a much higher rate.  I'm sure if the business is profitable, he pays himself and family members dividends which are certainly taxed, just like they are for any investor.  Aside from that, he's contributing 1/2 of his employees payroll tax, very likely contributing to some sort of retirement plan and insurance plan for his employees.  He's also providing the jobs that pay the other 1/2 of payroll tax as well as federal income tax those workers will pay on their wages and then the multiplicative effect of the other service jobs which are created to serve the varying needs of his employees throughout the community.

Now we are saying to the job creators: "Piss on you, you don't contribute enough!"

Yeah, now regale me with out trickle-down economics doesn't work and your usual RWRE BS.

[Gaspar]

This year, households making more than $1 million will pay an average 29.1% of their income in federal taxes, including income taxes, payroll taxes and other taxes, according to the Tax Policy Center, a Washington think tank.

Households making between $50,000 and $75,000 will pay an average of 15% of their income in federal taxes.

Lower-income households will pay less. For example, households making between $40,000 and $50,000 will pay an average of 12.5% of their income in federal taxes. Households making between $20,000 and $30,000 will pay 5.7%.

The latest IRS figures are a few years older — and limited to federal income taxes — but show much the same thing. In 2009, taxpayers who made $1 million or more paid on average 24.4% of their income in federal income taxes, according to the IRS.

Those making $100,000 to $125,000 paid on average 9.9% in federal income taxes. Those making $50,000 to $60,000 paid an average of 6.3%.


With tax rates that high, why do so many people pay at lower rates? Because the tax code is riddled with more than $1 trillion in deductions, exemptions and credits, and they benefit people at every income level, according to data from the nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation, Congress' official scorekeeper on revenue issues.

The Tax Policy Center estimates that 46% of households, mostly low- and medium-income households, will pay no federal income taxes this year. Most, however, will pay other taxes, including Social Security payroll taxes.

From the USA Today.  Obviously a right-wing rag!