Vote Yes on state question 744

[Conan71]

Ed, I'm truly intrigued with the idea of forcing ourselves to re-order our priorities and perhaps state government needing to figure out it's perhaps offering services which are not essential and that there's a lot of bloat on the payroll.

However, we really don't know what consequences result.  Do we start releasing more violent offenders because we have to cut DOC further?  Does it become harder for lower income students to realize the dream of a college diploma?  Do we cut important services from DHS which protect families and children?  Would we see a spike in unemployment with government layoffs?

Believe me, I'd love to take a cleaver to the state budget, but without careful review it could have very many unintended consequences.

[Ed W]

However, we really don't know what consequences result.  Do we start releasing more violent offenders because we have to cut DOC further?  Does it become harder for lower income students to realize the dream of a college diploma?  Do we cut important services from DHS which protect families and children?  Would we see a spike in unemployment with government layoffs?

Like I said, I'm only mildly positive about this.  Sure, we could see layoffs of government employees, violent offenders returned to the streets, or our roads and bridges deteriorating even more.  Or perhaps we'd see more realistic sentencing or even treatment for non-violent drug offenses.  Maybe we'd see money going into the classrooms rather than Taj Mahal offices for administrators. 

We send our legislators to Oklahoma City to represent us and make hard choices about allocating our tax monies.  In theory, if they're responsive to the electorate, they'll keep their jobs.  But what does it say about them and us when they can pander to the most reactionary elements in the state without fear of consequences?  It's almost as if Oklahomans are proudly ignorant and determined to remain that way.

Maintaining the status quo will do nothing to improve Oklahoma education.  Attracting and keeping well-qualified teachers takes money, lots of money.  Why stay in a low paying teaching job when the same skills bring more income elsewhere?  The gratitude of the local community doesn't pay the mortgage or put food on the table. 

It seems that the something-for-nothing crowd believes that education will improve if we simply ignore the problems until they go away.  They use the teacher's union as a whipping boy, perhaps in the belief that if only they could be disbanded, education would undergo a magical transformation as teacher pay and benefits were forced downward.   

[guido911]

So for Guido's benefit, I'm in favor of this question.  If it doesn't work - just as Colorado's TABOR law didn't work out - then it's our responsibility as voters and citizens to see that the law is changed.  Simply doing nothing is not a responsible option.

Thanks for taking a position, although I respectfully disagree with it. That said, doing something for the sake of doing something is hardly a basis for passing legislation that provides zero cost controls and zero accountability on schools and their teachers.

[Ed W]

Has any state question addressed cost controls and accountability for its provisions?  I'm not asking that in a sarcastic sense, I'd really like to know.

[Conan71]

People forget that the state-mandated minimum teacher's salary of $31,600 for nine months worth of work is $3511 per month, equivalent to 42,133 per year.  The teacher is free to take a job of their choice in the off months and many do while still enjoying great benefits like health insurance and a pension that many of their peers right out of college don't have.  In addition to that, they will have Social Security benefits upon retirement as well.

http://sde.state.ok.us/Teacher/Salary/default.html

Their pay is in line with other occupations requiring a bachelor's degree, considering they get a three month holiday every year, plus the school holidays to boot.  In other words, teaching isn't that bad of a gig.  For advance degree holders, I'd like to see a higher pay scale more commensurate with the effort and expense put into earning a master's or doctorate. 

Median salaries, along with years of experience for those with bachelor's degrees.  Keep in mind, the teacher's salaries from the link above are state minimums.  Many districts pay above that scale.

[guido911]

Has any state question addressed cost controls and accountability for its provisions?  I'm not asking that in a sarcastic sense, I'd really like to know.

I know that question was not sarcastic, and by the way it is a good one. My only thought would be legislation that is specific to controls and accountability, such as minimum test scoring and teacher performance in the context of education reform, would address the issue. Instead, your and RM's point is looking for a "side effect" of 744 to address those issues.

I am going to walk back my initial "attack" on Mike's essential re-posting of this thread, mainly because the passion on this subject is so high.

[nathanm]

In the book SuperFreakonomics, the authors make the claim that the quality of teachers has been reduced significantly since 1960 because more women get more advanced college degrees and the really smart ones have better opportunities for higher paying employment than teaching today. If that's true, about the only thing we can do is increase teacher pay to get some of these more capable folks back into teaching.

Their central premise that people respond to incentives, not some innate altruistic sense, is plainly how the world works.

[RecycleMichael]

People forget that the state-mandated minimum teacher's salary of $31,600 for nine months worth of work is $3511 per month, equivalent to 42,133 per year. 

Your math is slightly off. Tulsa schools now have teachers required to be at work on August 18th and there till June 7th. My experience with our children's teachers is that they are also there a week early preparing the classrooms.

I don't disagree that teachers are paid a fair wage. I want more teachers to reduce classroom size. I want better technology like smart boards to help them teach better. I want education to include arts and music programs.

[Conan71]

Your math is slightly off. Tulsa schools now have teachers required to be at work on August 18th and there till June 7th. My experience with our children's teachers is that they are also there a week early preparing the classrooms.

I don't disagree that teachers are paid a fair wage. I want more teachers to reduce classroom size. I want better technology like smart boards to help them teach better. I want education to include arts and music programs.

How does a smart board help them teach better?  I'm not being a smartass, I've simply never seen one in action and it seems like a pretty high-priced gizmo that is another vanity purchase for the classroom which won't affect the outcome significantly.  We got real good learnin' and eddycashuns with chalk and those new-fangled dry-erase boards where I came from.

Please explain how it's a great teaching tool, I'm willing to listen.

$32,900 was the starting pay for TPS in '09/'10.  That's still pretty close to their peer average right out of college at $3290 a month or $39,480 a year for 12 months of employment.  They also paid $442 a month for health insurance.  Contract schedule days are 183 a year, or 36 1/2 five day work weeks.  Basically 15 1/2 weeks off a year unless my public school math failed me.

The meme of underpaid teachers is wearing thin on me.

"Benefits:
•11.00/mo dental
•Life insurance - 1 1/2 times employee's annual salary
•Long Term Disability
Health Ins:
Oklahoma statutes provide that the District shall pay health insurance premiums not to exceed the "Health Choice High" individual premium amount for each teacher (certified) who elects coverage. Teachers not electing to take health insurance through the District (provided other coverage is in force) shall be paid a taxable cash "in-lieu" payment in the amount set by statute. The HCH premium amount to be paid by the District for 2009 is $409.12 per month, for 2010 it will be $442.80 and the "in-lieu" payment amount is $69.71 per month.

Note: The School District's existing agreement provides a career increment in the amount of $1,000.00 after 20, 25, 30, 34, 37 years of creditable service. Beginning with the 1995-96 school year, teachers who complete their 20, 25, 30, and 34 years of service during the first semester will move to the appropriate career increment for the second semester. The salary adjustment will be one-half the amount indicated for the yearly career increment.

A maximum of five years will be granted on the salary schedule for prior active military service.

* Schedule 183 contract days"

http://www.tulsaschools.org/depts/hr/cb/payteach.shtm

[RecycleMichael]

I agreed with you on fair pay.

Smart boards are high tech white boards that serve as computer monitors and capture images drawn by students.

http://eduscapes.com/sessions/smartboard/

Our PTA has purchased a few for some classrooms. They really help kids learn.

[Conan71]

Unfortunately, I wasn't able to tell much about the smart board from the link that was of use to me.  Gaspar seemed impressed with it as well, I'd like to actually see one in use in the classroom.  I'll ask my younger daughter if she's seen them in action.  I'm intrigued with it and if it improves learning and retention significantly then I'm for it.  My concern is of them being a novelty which winds up requiring expensive repairs and upgrades, but I admit to being completely ignorant of the concept.

As far as student/teacher ratio, Oklahoma averages 13.9 students per teacher, the national average is 15.3.

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/stateprofiles/sresult.asp?mode=full&displaycat=1&s1=05&s2=20&s3=29&s4=40

Still, there's not universal agreement amongst experts that class size and student/teacher ratios make a huge difference in outcome.  I would agree that on the idea that smaller classes are a benefit to primary education as students at that point of development do require more individual attention.

"Class size is another statistics also often considered when looking at schools. In an article entitled, "Class Size and Student Achievement," the Center for Public Education says that “some researchers have not found a connection between smaller classes and higher student achievement, but most of the research shows that when class size reduction programs are well-designed and implemented in the primary grades (K-3), student achievement rises as class size drops."

Intuitively, it makes sense that the more attention a teacher can focus on each student, the more the student will benefit and, therefore, perform at a higher level.

While both student-teacher ratio and class size impact teacher workload, the National Center for Education Statistics points out the importance of other factors, including the number of classes for which a teacher is responsible and the number of classes taken by students."

http://www.muninetguide.com/articles/StudentTeacher-Ratio--Is-Smaller-255.php#continue_reading

[custosnox]

I saw the smartboards in action a lot when my kids were at Eugene Fields.  They extend the computer to the board, and add a level of interactivity for the kids by using touch detection software.  At the simplist they can be used to do something like put math problems in the board for kids to work out, and display  tips when stumped. I know, something the teacher can do with a chalk/dry erase board.  But it allows for a wider availablility of interaction, such as one program that I saw where the kids would play musical instruments on the board by touching keys, or shapes or whatever.  It also replaces things like the overhead projectors and tv's.  At the very least they will draw kids more into the enviroment, allowing them to interact more than they would have previously.  

[RecycleMichael]

Conan...didn't you go to private schools and didn't your kids go to private schools?

[Conan71]

Conan...didn't you go to private schools and didn't your kids go to private schools?

I was in public schools both TPS and Jenks from 2nd through 9th.  Both my daughters went/go to public schools and the older one is attending a public university now.  If you are trying to imply I don't care to fund public schools because I don't utilize them, you are fishing with the wrong bait, even if both my daugters were privately educated.  Public schools are one of the most important government services, I don't have a problem funding them, nor increasing funding in a logical manner.

If there were some sort of credible studies which showed a good correlation between $$ spent and outcomes, I'd be more willing to consider this bill.  Washington DC spends more per pupil than the rest of the nation and ranks amongst the worst of school systems.  Also, if this bill showed accountability with the funds, and had an orderly plan for which agencies would take budget cuts I could get behind it.  Unfortunately, it does none of the above.

Simply throwing more money at a problem where we alreay mis-manage our funds and priorities won't necessarily fix the problem.  Is the problem our students under-perform or is the problem that we don't spend as much per pupil as our neighbors?  Texas spends $600+ more per pupil and yet their average performance is worse.

I feel that's a major difference between liberal and conservative ideology: liberals think money will fix anything, conservatives think personal responsibility is usually the best solution.  I would imagine the truth is a reasonible combination of both.  School systems need to start showing a better sense of priorities and be willing to consolidate to lower operating expenses.

[nathanm]

School systems need to start showing a better sense of priorities and be willing to consolidate to lower operating expenses.

I wouldn't start down that road, if I were you. I'm surprised you didn't hear the uproar and see the flames and smoke from the metaphorical rioting when Arkansas decided to consolidate the smaller districts with nearby larger districts.