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Author Topic: Camera records unexpected violence  (Read 10350 times)
patric
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« on: April 19, 2009, 11:00:33 am »

Surveillance cameras may do nothing to prevent crime, but they sure settle who was telling the truth and who was not. 

http://www.fox4kc.com/video/?autoStart=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=3665572

GRANDVIEW, Mo. -- A local man said he was shocked to be rushed by U.S. marshals at a basketball game Wednesday.

Surveillance cameras at a Grandview community center captured video of Stuart Wright at a men's basketball game when the marshals burst in, guns drawn and a Taser gun deployed.

Wright, of Kansas City, Kan., had just gone in to sub for someone when suddenly the U.S. marshals drew down on him.

The marshals said they were looking for Vinol Wilson, charged with dealing crack cocaine in an organization that involved dozens of others.
The marshals said they try to avoid busy places, but that Wilson had been eluding them for more than a year. And a confidential informant told them that he was at the community center, wearing an orange jersey with the No. 23 on it.

"I just heard all this commotion and screaming, and as I turned I heard this gentleman screaming and he had a gun pointed at me," said Wright. "And as I put my hands up I guess he was screaming the gentleman's name who they were after, and I said my name is Stuart Wright, that's not my name and I heard pop,pop and I felt my body tense up, and I was on the ground." He showed where the two Taser gun probes left blood stains on the shirt.

The marshals said a deputy deployed the Taser because Wright pulled away from them when they ordered him to the ground, then cocked his arm as if to throw a punch.

Wright said that's not true. "I had my hands up in the air," he said.

"It was out of control," Wright said. "It was all the way out of control. It's unfortunate they feel like that's OK, that type of behavior in a family atmosphere with kids around, with innocent people around, that that type of behavior is OK."

"I honestly think it was poor planning and strategy, and I think somebody didn't do their homework," said Wright. "I think they were out of control."

"Those guys just bum rushed the gentleman, and it was maybe 8 of them and they had their guns out and where they approached him at it was a stand behind him full of kids," said Dukes. "I'm still disappointed because it was a stand full of kids."

The U.S. Marshals Office admitted that entering a crowded community center with guns drawn was not an ideal situation, but they said that the man they were looking for was armed and dangerous.
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nathanm
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« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2009, 11:21:47 am »

I wonder why it is that police still take the word of confidential informants as gospel, when they fairly regularly spout utter BS to save their own skin, especially when they could easily take a few minutes to verify the information they've been given.

It is also interesting to note how the taser and other less than lethal weapons (that do pretty regularly kill, sadly) have significantly lowered the bar for the use of force against alleged suspects.
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« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2009, 04:00:29 pm »

What gets me is they say that he did not comply, etc. But how can you in such a situation? It takes a minute to get your bearings and figure out whats going on. Especially when its something completely unexpected and there is lots going on around you. Is this a joke? someone playing around? Are they really talking to me? Are these even police at all? Whats going on?

When your in a situation that is totally unexpected and someone you dont know is perhaps threatening you, your not quite sure whats going on, its disorienting and it could be your life. When your dead, your dead. I remember when someone leapt out at a bikerider and hit them with a baseball bat on Riverside. You only have so much time to react. Or your dead. D-E-A-D, dead. If someone means you harm, you have no idea how far they are going to go, and you cant risk finding out, for your sake, for your families sake.     

I am not going to immediately surrender to anyone, period. Police or not. Until I know they are police and they have to give you that chance cause otherwise of course your going to back away. From what I could see in the video these people were not in uniform. They are just strangers yelling stuff and I am not going to risk dying. Perhaps it just those years in the army and going over and over the fact that its, kill or be killed. The enemy isnt there to "hurt you really bad" they are there to kill you, plain and simple. In the every day world, If I dont know who someone is, and they threaten me, if I can get away first I will, If not, I will put them out of commission, because they could kill you. And imo, it would be absolutely stupid to think any other way. Once your dead, there is no fixing that.   
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« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2009, 08:26:00 pm »

I have been pulled over and jacked up several times for no reason. One time, while in the miltary, I walked out of my workplace at around 2:00 a.m. and right into a security police active investigation of some crime. Ain't nothing like having an M-60, fully loaded, trained on your head. The last time, the police thought I was the driver in a robbery and hit and run. Notwithstanding that I had no damage to my vehicle and my explaining they had the wrong person, the female officer had her service weapon aimed at my head telling me to get to the ground so she could due a Terry search (which I really enjoyed, that's why I mentioned the gender of the cop). I absolutely complied. After it was apparent they had the wrong guy, she and her partner apologized at length. I told them to forget about me and go get the bad guy.

My point is that I did not make a federal case out this event, which I suspect the guy in this story will do.
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BKDotCom
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« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2009, 08:52:30 pm »

My point is that I did not make a federal case out this event, which I suspect the guy in this story will do.
You weren't tackled and tazed, dude.
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« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2009, 09:14:21 pm »

You weren't tackled and tazed, dude.

You are missing the point.  He would be happy to be tazed or tackled and he wouldn't complain about it. 
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Hoss
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« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2009, 09:18:45 pm »

You are missing the point.  He would be happy to be tazed or tackled and he wouldn't complain about it. 

I'm guessing there would be no shortage of volunteers from here to do that if he really really wanted to have it done to him.

 Grin
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« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2009, 08:49:23 am »

I understand the mix up, but the execution of the event was REALLY bad.  I'm with Artist, if some guy runs out on the court yelling at me and clearly looking like he wants a fight I'm likely to give him one.  No way the guy had any idea of what was happening no matter what the cop was shouting - you just can't process an unexpected event that fast.  You just react.

I'm willing to bet 85% of people would have reacted exactly the same way.  Furthermore, it was doubtful that the guy had a weapon on him on the court.  What did the officer expect?

Under the scenario it would be permitted to get the ID of anyone from an "informant" and then just run out en mass and taser the guy and arrest him.  I would like to think that is not the case.  This shouldn't be a "big deal" but I certainly think some kind of compensation for embarrassing, scaring, and then tasering this guy is in order.

More important than that, it is telling to that community how the officers work. 
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« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2009, 09:29:53 am »

Here is another case

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/23/AR2009012302935.html?hpid=topnews

Rundown, Drug traffickers have been sending UPS packages to random people and then stealing the packages before the people get home.  Somebody did this to the mayor of a small town, the police picked up the package (from ups) because they knew it had drugs in it from drug dogs or something .  Then they put the package on the mayor's doorstep and rung the doorbell.  They took the package inside and set it on the counter.  Later, The Mayor's wife was downstairs in the kitchen and saw guys in black in the backyard with guns coming at the house so she screamed.  That basically authorized them to raid the house and use deadly force if necessary (in case she warned other people in the house).  The swat broke the door down, killed the dogs, held a gun to their head and asked them where the drugs were.  Gave an answer because that is what you do with a gun pointed at you.  I know Guido might be fine with this stuff but I would rather not have the SWAT team raid my house without checking more into things like this.
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patric
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« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2009, 09:48:39 am »

What bothered me the most is that the agency involved was U.S. Marshals, considered the top drawer of law enforcement.
All other LEO's are beneath the bar they set, but the bar just got lowered considerably.
It makes me wonder if this could end up being a precedent to a "Tase on first contact" standard set now that the Marshals service opened the door.

I was actually in favor of Tasers at one point, when they were being promoted as alternatives to deadly force, but now that they are in everyday use they have become alternatives to everything but deadly force.
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guido911
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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2009, 10:35:49 am »

You weren't tackled and tazed, dude.

I see, having a fully automatic weapon pointed at your head is not THAT bad. Having that happen and actually being shot at while in the military has given me some perspective. How about you?  Oh, I presume I didn't get tazed or tackled because: 1) I was too busy getting the sh#t scared out of me by loaded weapons, and 2) I quickly complied with the authorities.
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nathanm
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« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2009, 11:45:06 am »

I see, having a fully automatic weapon pointed at your head is not THAT bad.
I would much prefer to have a gun pointed at me and not fired than be tased. People die from tasers.

Luckily, on the occasion when I was mistaken for a burglar the cops weren't as over the top as they are now. Sure, the lady cop who was the only officer at first drew her service weapon, but a couple of moments of conversation and a plain showing of my hands and the situation was defused. No tackling or tasing, or even slowly laying on the ground involved. Of course, very few departments had tasers back then.

Apparently, walking down the street being dressed in dark clothing at night in a college town sometimes makes your neighbors think you're out to burgle them.

I think the SWAT mentality has become pervasive. Between that and the implicit trust some place in confidential informants who are telling the police things not out of any altruistic motive, but purely to avoid going to jail, things are getting worse, not better, yet criminals are no more violent than they were 20 or 30 years ago when the police weren't so over the top.

That's not to say all police are over the top, they're not, but things like this are depressingly common.
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guido911
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« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2009, 06:46:57 pm »

I would much prefer to have a gun pointed at me and not fired than be tased. People die from tasers.


People also die from guns that are pointed at their heads which are accidentally fired. Other than that, I agree with the rest of your post.
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nathanm
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« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2009, 07:11:59 pm »

People also die from guns that are pointed at their heads which are accidentally fired.
Sure, but I trust those who have received extensive training to be able to exercise good fire control and not shoot someone accidentally. Besides, guns are almost always drawn while someone is being tased by police.

(Not to mention that the officer should be going for a center of mass shot, not a likely to miss head shot!)  Shocked
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"Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration" --Abraham Lincoln
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« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2009, 08:15:22 pm »

Sure, but I trust those who have received extensive training to be able to exercise good fire control and not shoot someone accidentally. Besides, guns are almost always drawn while someone is being tased by police.

(Not to mention that the officer should be going for a center of mass shot, not a likely to miss head shot!)  Shocked

Have you ever had a loaded weapon pointed at you at point blank range or, more importantly, have you ever been under fire? If not, you unfortnately have no real experience in the sort of fear that results from that. I also stick by my original point, mainly because I have never been tased.
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