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November 19, 2017, 01:55:24 pm
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Author Topic: Better Streetlights for Tulsa  (Read 110361 times)
patric
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« Reply #375 on: January 13, 2017, 11:02:00 pm »

1) I drive down the BA and am amazed by a couple of things:

A) we light the thing such that you don't need headlights and could easily read a book anywhere along the path, and
B) Randomly huge sections of lights just don't work.

Why do I need my path day-bright to drive down a multi-lane highway? I've never got that. And why continue to build systems we seem incapable of maintaining.

2) I heard on the radio this morning that 30 miles of copper cable have been stolen from our street lights.  With each light being 50 feet tall and having 3 wires, am I to assume that's 50,000 street lights?  Surely not. Are they steeling the wire out of the conduits between the street lights? HOW?

Also, what low-life metal scrapping facility is buying industrial copper cable from Billy-Bob with no point of origination information?

3) We pay a flat fee service for our street lights?

Well damn. Forget steeling the copper, the real racket is in tapping into the power grid of the street lights and powering up your entire neighborhood. Apparently they'll never know!

4) Knock 'em down. Light up interchanges and some dangerous on ramps, otherwise my car comes with special lights so I can see where I'm going.

Just an update... Tulsa's solution to copper theft has been to replace the copper wiring with aluminum with he belief that thieves dont steal aluminum.

KOTV reported that thieves last week stole the new aluminum wiring along 244, which shouldn't be surprising because of the number of cases where thieves had been stealing the aluminum poles.

Plan "C" ?  Do what other communities do and switch from "Continuous" to "Interchange" lighting, where you only light areas of conflict like ramps, cloverleaves and under/overpasses.

You save electricity, maintenance, and possibly lives (by highlighting the areas that need extra driver attention) and end up with fewer spots thieves could work.   As it stands now, catching the thieves working in broad daylight doesnt seem to be working.
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"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
cannon_fodder
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« Reply #376 on: January 16, 2017, 09:51:14 am »

All my questions still stand...

It is not unusual to scrap wire torn out of buildings.  But at 40 cents a pound this is a bulk business.  How can someone walk in with 3,000 pounds of fire ($~1300) and just plop it on the counter and some scrap dealer goes "sure, seems legit?"  Clearly no one with a license or reputation would risk it for $2500...so we are likely talking about Billy Bob and with a trailer.

How can someone just walk up to a street light, disconnect the hot electricity, go down the line and do the same thing, and just spool it up without anyone noticing?  Can't we have some kind of very basic sensor that tells when the circuit has been broken - ergo know exactly when a thief is steeling tens of thousands of dollars worth of wiring?  We aren't talking a few pennies, we are talking tens of thousands of dollars.

Couldn't we secure the wire at several places along the conduit... it could be as simple as looping it around an eye bolt halfway between each pole, inside the conduit, and then pouring a bag of concrete over the cap.  Pain in the donkey if anyone wants to access it - but more so if you are trying not to be noticed and don't want to drag a sledge hammer along with you.

Couldn't we just go to solar with a battery powering an LED and skip the wiring entirely?

Ignoring the ability to skip this entire issue by not needing lights everywhere at all times.

Ahhhhh!  I hate thieves.  I hate wasting money.
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AquaMan
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« Reply #377 on: January 16, 2017, 11:46:10 am »

They do it during odd hours. They are often mistaken for utility workers. I saw a small pickup parked next to a pole early am in the dead of winter. With no traffic to speak of he had the area to himself. Right now from 41st street west on I-75 south to 81st has no lights on at all in that time of the morning. That includes the I-44 cloverleaf and the area where the garbage truck went off the road last week.

Even if they can't market the materials locally, they can still truck it to outlying areas or out of state. These guys have a pretty good network that was already dealing in cars, tools, trailers, etc. This is no sweat to move.

Patrick's idea makes sense but just like the I-44 clover, they will overcome any obstacles provided since they likely have contacts within the city.

We might as well shut down all the lights and wait for the next target.
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patric
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« Reply #378 on: January 16, 2017, 02:34:04 pm »


Can't we have some kind of very basic sensor that tells when the circuit has been broken - ergo know exactly when a thief is steeling tens of thousands of dollars worth of wiring?  We aren't talking a few pennies, we are talking tens of thousands of dollars.


Several European nations are way ahead of us on this. 
The technology that makes possible dimable streetlights (by time of day and traffic-sensing) and real-time maintenance reporting can also detect a line break as it happens.

Networked street lighting ("Smart City") infrastructure is a reality in other parts of the world, but too esoteric for us to consider... unless we found ourselves in a position where we were loosing tens of thousands of dollars...
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"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #379 on: January 17, 2017, 08:58:30 pm »


Can't we have some kind of very basic sensor that tells when the circuit has been broken - ergo know exactly when a thief is steeling tens of thousands of dollars worth of wiring?  We aren't talking a few pennies, we are talking tens of thousands of dollars.



Yes we can.  But then again, that costs money, too.  Your car can tell you when a light bulb is out in the tail lights...this kind of circuit is trivial - add a wifi or other radio network and you have an alarm monitored system.  It ain't rocket science...

Could go that one extra step and after detecting event at pole, just connect high voltage to the pole they are holding - light them up like a Christmas tree!

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Cetary
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« Reply #380 on: January 21, 2017, 12:48:40 pm »

Looks like some Canadian communities are taking the warm white 3000k route for their LED refits.

http://m.newhamburgindependent.ca/news-story/7051849-energy-saving-led-street-lights-coming-to-wilmot-and-wellesley-much-cheaper-than-expected

"I’m pretty excited about this project” said Barry Fisher when the LED upgrades were discussed back at a December council meeting.

These are 3,000k lights on the Kelvin colour temperature scale, meaning they have a warm yellow tinge, not a bright blue or white colour.."

To add to that it also appears the small community of Moffat in Scotland has also sent the warm white route actually selecting the warm white Phillips Iriduim LED light I just linked. Interestingly, it might be possible to even adapt the Iridium for stateside use on our cobraheads with a driver for 120 volts as opposed to 240, though it really shouldn't be necessary all the available 3000k cobrahead  models we have now.

On a different note I had the opportunity to travel to Tucson, and they've gone the 3000k route on their massive citywide street light refit. I've got to admit though, while I metered the lights at a bit over 3000k, bit they appeared to be as blue as the 3500k parking lot refits used around town. In fact the cobraheads Tucson used almost visually appeared like 3700k lights dimmed. I have pictures if anyone is interested.
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Cetary
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« Reply #381 on: January 22, 2017, 10:54:04 pm »

Found another pic of a well shielded low mounted PC amber LED setup. It's like night and day, pardon the possible pun, to the lighting install Patric linked.



I believe lights in the background are HPS. The PC Amber LEDs in the foreground are running at a candlelike 1800 kelvin albeit with lower cri.
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patric
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« Reply #382 on: January 22, 2017, 11:34:51 pm »


On a different note I had the opportunity to travel to Tucson, and they've gone the 3000k route on their massive citywide street light refit. I've got to admit though, while I metered the lights at a bit over 3000k, bit they appeared to be as blue as the 3500k parking lot refits used around town. In fact the cobraheads Tucson used almost visually appeared like 3700k lights dimmed. I have pictures if anyone is interested.

There's a big difference between the colors of 3000K and 3700K;  the former should be considered the upper limit of allowable blue light.
2700K would be closer to the incandescent lights of yesteryear (for those wanting that warm, nostalgic look).

FWIW I think our expressway lights are 440 volt but ill have to verify.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 02:21:23 pm by patric » Logged

"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
Cetary
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« Reply #383 on: January 23, 2017, 11:23:08 am »

Hmm. Here are some pics of the refit. HPS in the foreground as a baseline the "3000k" LED cobra is offset to the left center and is pretty close to the color I observed in person.

 https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2fHBiEQTxTKUzE1NElVNEtlSHM/view?usp=drivesdk

Another couple pics looking down the street with the street having a moderate horizontal illuminance of about 7-8 lux. These pics came out slightly warmer then the real fixtures, but are otherwise pretty close to the real thing. They are using 93 watt fixtures to illuminate their arterials btw.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2fHBiEQTxTKcWdMSFBGUTNPc1U/view?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2fHBiEQTxTKckZobnkzOTlrOE0/view?usp=drivesdk

Contrast these "3000k" cobraheads to the 3500k parking lot lights which the pics came out very true to life. You can see they seem almost the same color temp. You can also finally see just how blue the old standard of 4300k+ is when the 3500k is the white light.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2fHBiEQTxTKSWp6TklBU20zc0U/view?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2fHBiEQTxTKMTN0MU5hUjVaS0E/view?usp=drivesdk

Sorry it wouldn't let me link the images directly this time. I did find this pic, and it's pretty close to being representative of the lights in person against HPS. They just seem kinda high in the kelvin range.



I guess if 3000k really looks like this maybe then I'd really like to see a 2700-2900k standard luminary. Or they might be light as blue as 3700k. On a side note, I did meter some outdoor CFLs that had a very pleasing color at about 2800-2900k.

Btw, barring voltages I think the warm white Iridium would make a fine refit for many a fixture here in the US.



« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 12:31:22 pm by Cetary » Logged
Cetary
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« Reply #384 on: January 26, 2017, 09:04:24 pm »

FYI, Montreal goes 3000k for its large LED refit.

http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/goodbye-lighting-blues-mayor-opts-for-warmer-led-street-lights-1.3246605

Chicago has also said that they will opt for the lower kelvin rated LEDs, under 3000k, but no word yet on shielding.
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Cetary
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« Reply #385 on: January 29, 2017, 04:32:29 pm »

Latest finds. Here's a Kim lighting Warp 9 in 3000k. It can be fitted in place of the usual cobrahead with a slipfitter.



And here's another with bad optics, but it's a metal halide at 2800k. It's part of Phillips CosmoWhite line of ceramic metal halide lamps.



AEL now offers their Autobahn series of fixtures in 3000k. These are the fixtures Tucson has went with and now Pheonix potentially to as they're going through the same contractor. They used these fixtures in installs all the way up to major intersection lighting.

http://www.acuitybrands.com/products/detail/344812/american-electric-lighting/autobahn-atbm/led-roadway-luminaire/
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 05:02:37 pm by Cetary » Logged
patric
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« Reply #386 on: January 30, 2017, 01:18:28 pm »

FWIW the picture on the bottom would be considered a "bad fixture" because of the glare-prone optics (the "drop lens" bubble).  Good optics in this case would be a flat lens, but I understand he's just showing it to demonstrate light color.

Tulsa-sized Tucson still has a requirement that streetlights be Full-Cutoff (the flat lens) and you can see so much better there as a result.

And yes, the amber LED streetlights would be the best choice (environmentally and human-vision-wise) along the river for The Gathering Place but where are the plans for that?
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"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
Cetary
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« Reply #387 on: January 31, 2017, 09:25:28 pm »

Looks like GE is at it again. Over 100 lumens per watt with their newest high mast LED...and all in 3000k to with their new Evolve High Mast.

http://www.gelighting.com/LightingWeb/na/solutions/outdoor-lighting/street-roadway/evolve-led-roadway-high-mast-erhm.jsp

It's good to know they aren't even openly offering 5000k+ with that fixture. To see a high mast LED at 2700k with an efficiency of over 100 lumens per watt would be awesome, and it might happen sooner then later to.
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« Reply #388 on: February 09, 2017, 02:08:16 pm »

Excuse me if this has been discussed before but what is the protocol for downed street lights in the city? I see a lot of them lying on the side of the roads or highways for months at a time. Most appear to be unusable. Not only are they eye sores but it seems they would be a nuisance to the mowers in the summertime. It doesn't seem like it would require much resources to go around and pick them up.
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patric
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« Reply #389 on: February 09, 2017, 04:49:03 pm »

Excuse me if this has been discussed before but what is the protocol for downed street lights in the city? I see a lot of them lying on the side of the roads or highways for months at a time. Most appear to be unusable. Not only are they eye sores but it seems they would be a nuisance to the mowers in the summertime. It doesn't seem like it would require much resources to go around and pick them up.

ODOT for Interstates, Tulsa Public Works for expressways.

Its scrap aluminum, im sure people would volunteer...  Roll Eyes
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"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
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