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Author Topic: Better Streetlights for Tulsa  (Read 110585 times)
heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #150 on: October 02, 2011, 06:45:47 pm »

Compared to allowing private industry (with all the conflicts of interest) to make those choices, an "intrusion" by the city council or INCOG would be a lesser evil if it reigns in a little corporate greed.

There's nothing wrong with a public process to set design standards for neighborhoods, for instance, or requiring efficiency standards for municipal lighting.  Just throwing up your hands and saying to the utility companies "Here, you do it" is poor leadership.


P.S. My epiphany was in Tucson in '96.  My perception was that the streets looked dark (because of the absence of glare), yet I could see better and further without that glare.  Cops and firemen loved it, so did the taxpayers: they saved $$millions upfront because they use less electricity.

I agree completely.  The phrase "unwarranted government intrusion" is one of those Murdochian key talking points they use while trying to sell the people of this country the MAJOR bill of goods that government is somehow always bad (and cutting all taxes all the time is good - part 2 of the mantra).  We have been dealing with that set of lies for 3 decades, and now getting to live with the consequences.

Tucson - that's what I saw in all the places mentioned above, as well as Tucson and Las Cruzes a couple years ago.  Lot of towns doing so much better than we are.  And beautifully, too!!

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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

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patric
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« Reply #151 on: October 03, 2011, 10:06:47 am »

Lot of towns doing so much better than we are.  And beautifully, too!!



Earlier this year, Mayor Bartlett initiated a Lights On! committee, which is composed of representatives from the Mayor's Office, Public Service Company of Oklahoma, Tulsa Police Department and City of Tulsa Traffic Engineering to create a work plan for more street lighting in neighborhoods.

Translation:  The decision to add more lights had already been made, the committee just got to pick where they would go. 
In most municipalities, there is what's known as a "warranting" process where a location is analyzed to determine if adding, changing or even removing a light would be beneficial or address a problem.  Not here.

http://www2.oaklandnet.com/Government/o/PWA/o/IO/s/SL/OAK025394
http://www.arlingtonva.us/departments/EnvironmentalServices/dot/traffic/streetlights/images/file61665.pdf
http://www2.oaklandnet.com/oakca/groups/pwa/documents/policy/oak026007.pdf

In a nutshell, most cities at least require new lighting meet national standards such as "RP-8-00 American National Standard Practice for Roadway Lighting".  The AEP junk in the photo DOES NOT.


Some of my peers in the world of municipal lighting are getting a kick out of this:

"Criminals use the cover of darkness to commit their crimes, so when we take that element away from them, they no longer commit crimes in that area," said Tulsa Police Department Captain Jonathan Brooks."

When you see photos of drive-by shootings, armed robberies, etc. chances are there will be a streetlight in the picture, because bad guys need to see, too.  Crimes take place in some of the brightest areas, and most burglaries occur in broad daylight...
It's downright embarrassing that people are expected to tow this outdated line of thinking.  TPD gave up on it years ago, yet it rears it's ugly head again for this occasion.

What we are doing is stupid, on so many levels.
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"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
Red Arrow
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« Reply #152 on: October 03, 2011, 04:36:26 pm »

In a nutshell, most cities at least require new lighting meet national standards such as "RP-8-00 American National Standard Practice for Roadway Lighting".  The AEP junk in the photo DOES NOT.

They had to do something with them.  Grin

More seriously, on the Gilcrease Expy from Tulsa International to I-244 I noticed streetlights that appear to be shielded.  What do you think about them?
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patric
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« Reply #153 on: October 03, 2011, 10:46:07 pm »

They had to do something with them.  Grin

More seriously, on the Gilcrease Expy from Tulsa International to I-244 I noticed streetlights that appear to be shielded.  What do you think about them?

There are several makes of shielded lights around the airport.  Some are newer flat-lens Cobra-heads, and some older ones are drop-lens Cobras with an aftermarket shield known as an "admiral's hat".

The streetlights near the airport are shielded to keep them from blinding pilots.  They do so by eliminating the uplight waste.
....waste that PSO apparently feels is OK for every other area of Tulsa.

The irony is that shielded lights are often cheaper to manufacture and buy, and when installed properly, burn less electricity because you can use less wattage (since you arent paying for the wasted uplight).  But the goal of "Lights ON!" appears to be more lights, not better ones.
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"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
Conan71
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« Reply #154 on: October 03, 2011, 11:01:50 pm »

We got an interesting schooling in lighting recently on a trip to Colorado.  They have ordinances which limit the amount of light you can emit.  I suppose it goes to trying to help preserve the pristine sky views you can see at night and to be as unobtrusive as possible to nature (no complaints here).  Places like Pagosa Springs are very picky about any directed light on your business sign may not extend beyond the image of the sign.  Hell, they even limit the size of your sign and how the color or hue arrangement can be illuminated on a self-illuminted sign.  I'm still trying to think if I've ever seen a billboard along Hwy 160 from Durango to Walsenburg or Hwy 84 from Pagosa to Chama, and I don't think there are any.  Kind of nice, though it probably sucks to be in the outdoor advertising business up there.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #155 on: October 04, 2011, 06:18:03 am »

We got an interesting schooling in lighting recently on a trip to Colorado.  They have ordinances which limit the amount of light you can emit.  I suppose it goes to trying to help preserve the pristine sky views you can see at night and to be as unobtrusive as possible to nature (no complaints here).  Places like Pagosa Springs are very picky about any directed light on your business sign may not extend beyond the image of the sign.  Hell, they even limit the size of your sign and how the color or hue arrangement can be illuminated on a self-illuminted sign.  I'm still trying to think if I've ever seen a billboard along Hwy 160 from Durango to Walsenburg or Hwy 84 from Pagosa to Chama, and I don't think there are any.  Kind of nice, though it probably sucks to be in the outdoor advertising business up there.

That's exactly what I said a few posts back.  The sign business is doing fine, they just have to make a little different sign.  It's not just Colorado, but Wyoming, Montana, and Utah.  As well as parts of California, Wisconsin, and Minnesota. 

And very few of those big obnoxious LED signs.



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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
patric
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« Reply #156 on: October 04, 2011, 12:54:39 pm »

Crime will drop slightly as cold weather approaches,
and someone will declare "Mission Accomplished"
but then comes summer again, and a year from now crime numbers will be slightly higher unless we do something other than just lights.

...and it's that something other that really makes the difference, whether you call it "friendly eyes" or the "natural surveillance" that occurs when families (instead of thugs) make use of lighted areas.

Otherwise, having just lights and no "friendly eyes" only looks like this:

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"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
dbacks fan
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« Reply #157 on: October 22, 2011, 05:27:14 pm »

patric, just curious about your thoughts about induction lights for street lights.




http://www.azcentral.com/community/gilbert/articles/2011/10/21/20111021gilbert-replace-2700-streetlight-bulbs.html
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patric
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« Reply #158 on: October 22, 2011, 06:03:16 pm »

patric, just curious about your thoughts about induction lights for street lights.

Given that Induction lighting is an emerging technology still in need of a lot of refinements, I think it would be a bad idea to commit to lighting your streets with it just yet.

What they will notice first is the high blue component, which will produce between three and four times the amount of sky glow compared to the High Pressure Sodium they are currently using. 
Besides it's cold, aesthetically uninviting appearance, high intensity blue light at night also has known adverse health issues for humans and nature.
http://www.illinoislighting.org/lightcolor.html

Other than the poor color, the efficacy numbers (lumens of light per watt of electricity) and lifespan look really good, so when they can get the color closer to incandescent (around 3200 degrees Kelvin or less) I'd be more comfortable with tax dollars being spent on it.
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"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #159 on: October 24, 2011, 12:36:40 pm »

Given that Induction lighting is an emerging technology still in need of a lot of refinements, I think it would be a bad idea to commit to lighting your streets with it just yet.

What they will notice first is the high blue component, which will produce between three and four times the amount of sky glow compared to the High Pressure Sodium they are currently using. 
Besides it's cold, aesthetically uninviting appearance, high intensity blue light at night also has known adverse health issues for humans and nature.
http://www.illinoislighting.org/lightcolor.html

Other than the poor color, the efficacy numbers (lumens of light per watt of electricity) and lifespan look really good, so when they can get the color closer to incandescent (around 3200 degrees Kelvin or less) I'd be more comfortable with tax dollars being spent on it.


Induction has been around for 20 years or so.  Essentially fluorescent, so I suspect the technology is about as developed as it needs to be or is likely to be.  Lets you roll up one of those long tubes into a bulb without the corkscrew.  It may just get skipped over for LED...??

The most common color temps for induction lamps are 3500k, 4100k, 5000k, and 6500k.  Ought to be something for just about everyone in that mix.


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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
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« Reply #160 on: October 24, 2011, 12:43:59 pm »

I'd be more comfortable with tax dollars being spent on it.

Quote
The project comes at a cost of about $1.1 million and will be funded through a grant from the U.S. Department of Energy, Gilbert management assistant Kenichi Maruyama said.


A grant from the DOE is tax dollars.
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patric
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« Reply #161 on: October 24, 2011, 09:53:39 pm »


Induction has been around for 20 years or so.  Essentially fluorescent, so I suspect the technology is about as developed as it needs to be or is likely to be.  Lets you roll up one of those long tubes into a bulb without the corkscrew.  It may just get skipped over for LED...??

LEDs have been around since the mid '60's, and are still evolving.
Like Induction, they are currently most efficient at the least desirable color temperatures, so maximum lumens-per-watt at a comfortable color still remains the holy grail of lighting.
It will happen, though, as long as the market drives it.
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"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
patric
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« Reply #162 on: October 28, 2011, 12:09:31 pm »

Wonder if this travesty is part of the Mayors vaunted "energy efficiency" initiative?   Roll Eyes

Today:
TULSA, Oklahoma -- The City of Tulsa uses a lot of energy each year, and a new study shows some of that it wasted.
The city hired an auditor to go over the utility bills, and then figure out where energy dollars are being wasted. The Mayor says the savings will start right away.


Somehow, Im skeptical....
Now if the mayor announced he was re-thinking the deal with AEP to install more energy-wasting streetlights on long stretches of empty roads...
...or at least started leaning more towards energy efficient, lower-wattage shielded lights...
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"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
patric
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« Reply #163 on: October 29, 2011, 05:33:23 pm »

patric, just curious about your thoughts about induction lights for street lights.

Now this induction luminaire looks promising:

http://www.mhtlighting.com/products/roadway

    100,000 Hour Product Lifespan (IESNA)
    10 year OR 60,000 Hour Warranty
    High Pressure Die-Cast Aluminum Housing
    Clear Tempered Glass Lens (get the flat lens instead of drop lens)
    Type 3 Distribution, Qualifies for IDA Dark Sky full Cutoff
    Dimmability, 2-way Communication
    Instant On, Flicker Free, Minimum Light Loss
    100W – 400W Square Tubular Induction Lamp
    Color Temps available: 3000-5000k (you want the 3000K version)
http://www.mhtlighting.com/pdfs/products/specifications/SpecSheet_MHT_Street_Roadway_Roadway.pdf

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"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #164 on: October 30, 2011, 07:56:58 pm »

Lighting is a piddly little piece of the puzzle.  Electric motors and losses on the grid account for around 75% of electrical power consumption in this country.  Make the motors 25% more efficient (variable frequency drives) and add more wire to the grid transmission lines and you would could make a real difference.  But hey,... since we can't (won't) do what really counts, let's worry about light bulbs....


Now, don't let the above give you the wrong impression - I like the idea of cutting power in light bulbs.  The incandescent bulbs I used to have put a lot of heat into the space that had to be taken out by an ancient A/C system.  They are all CFL now. 

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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
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