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Author Topic: Why is North Tulsa so run down?  (Read 16304 times)
sauerkraut
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« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2008, 01:54:51 pm »

It's bad in north "T" Towne. Keep out of there. Crime runs rampant. That is why it's in such bad shape. If you leave your house vacant more than a day -such as going on a trip or vacation, you'll return and find it striped of copper pipe & wires and everything else gone.. In Atlanta GA this sort of stuff has got so bad that they now have a police unit that patrols areas of empty homes. The sad part is they do thousands of dollars of damage to get $40.00 worth of copper pipe and wire. When and if they get caught they don't get much punishment, It's not treated as a serious crime. This kind of stuff is going on in North Tulsa.[xx(]
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« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2008, 02:05:54 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut

It's bad in north "T" Towne. Keep out of there. Crime runs rampant. That is why it's in such bad shape. If you leave your house vacant more than a day -such as going on a trip or vacation, you'll return and find it striped of copper pipe & wires and everything else gone.. In Atlanta GA this sort of stuff has got so bad that they now have a police unit that patrols areas of empty homes. The sad part is they do thousands of dollars of damage to get $40.00 worth of copper pipe and wire. When and if they get caught they don't get much punishment, It's not treated as a serious crime. This kind of stuff is going on in North Tulsa.[xx(]



Columbus, Ohio
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dbacks fan
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« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2008, 02:12:51 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Townsend

quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut

It's bad in north "T" Towne. Keep out of there. Crime runs rampant. That is why it's in such bad shape. If you leave your house vacant more than a day -such as going on a trip or vacation, you'll return and find it striped of copper pipe & wires and everything else gone.. In Atlanta GA this sort of stuff has got so bad that they now have a police unit that patrols areas of empty homes. The sad part is they do thousands of dollars of damage to get $40.00 worth of copper pipe and wire. When and if they get caught they don't get much punishment, It's not treated as a serious crime. This kind of stuff is going on in North Tulsa.[xx(]



Columbus, Ohio



A reference to former Mayor Dick Crawford?
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Townsend
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« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2008, 02:20:42 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by dbacks fan

quote:
Originally posted by Townsend

[quote
Columbus, Ohio



A reference to former Mayor Dick Crawford?



I was reminding him he lives in Ohio.
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Hometown
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« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2008, 02:29:42 pm »

Why is South Tulsa so empty in so many ways?

What happens when you find out that new and improved isn't.  Yards that never have any people in them.  A sidewalk here and there with no one walking.  Social intercourse reduced to a glance between cars at smokey intersections.  Neighborhoods full of nearly identical houses with identical incomes and ethnicities.  What happens when you find out that your ticky tacky neighborhood is sucking the life out of your city.  No color.  No spice.  Almost no life.  Just a search for something better and a flight from fear.



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bugo
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« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2008, 03:26:14 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by SXSW

Where, in your opinion, are the worst neighborhoods in North Tulsa?  From my limited experience (I grew up on the southside around 71st and Yale) I would say neighborhoods north of 244 along Peoria and Lewis but, like you said, that is more perception.



This is a good idea.  

On a similar thread, what are the worst parts of Tulsa south of Admiral?  I'll start by nominating the 61st and S Peoria area.
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sauerkraut
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« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2008, 03:55:13 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Townsend

quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut

It's bad in north "T" Towne. Keep out of there. Crime runs rampant. That is why it's in such bad shape. If you leave your house vacant more than a day -such as going on a trip or vacation, you'll return and find it striped of copper pipe & wires and everything else gone.. In Atlanta GA this sort of stuff has got so bad that they now have a police unit that patrols areas of empty homes. The sad part is they do thousands of dollars of damage to get $40.00 worth of copper pipe and wire. When and if they get caught they don't get much punishment, It's not treated as a serious crime. This kind of stuff is going on in North Tulsa.[xx(]



Columbus, Ohio

Oh yeah, we have it bad too. The city passed new laws to clamp dowm on scrap dealers who buy stolen metals. This is a problem in just about every major city. Too many empty houses. It's bad here, they tear out the drywall and take the wires and pipes.[xx(]
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MichaelBates
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« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2008, 05:18:22 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Hometown

To be fair there are run down areas all over town.  I'm always seeing wonderful houses that have been neglected even in popular areas like 15th Street and Peoria.  Tulsa is a little worn around the edges in general.

Northwest Tulsa was built as a 1st Class White neighborhood.  My great aunt lived in the Reservoir Hill flats with her executive husband back in the early 60s.  Shortly after that White flight (caucasians moving to the White suburbs when Blacks bought into their neighborhoods) got started in earnest.

There are also areas that were built for low income people on the northside.  Drive off of Lewis between Pine and Admiral and you find an occasional tiny shanty (1 room house).

The Greenwood Archer area was famous for it's Black owned businesses until White Tulsans burned it out.  I can remember going with our housekeeper to her doctor in the Greenwood area.  The blocks that I remember have since been demolished.



You make several good points about the history of North Tulsa. Reservoir Hill was and still is a neighborhood of impressive homes with some of the best views in the city. People are too quick to dismiss what north Tulsa has to offer. The homes in Brady Heights are and the area cleared for OSU expansion were of the same style and and construction quality that you'll find in historic North Maple Ridge or Swan Lake. The houses in Sequoyah neighborhood are much like the houses in White City or Florence Park.

The far north neighborhoods -- Suburban Acres and surrounding areas -- were built as white working-class subdivisions in the '40s and '50s. According to census stats, as late as 1960, the African-American population was mainly segregated to the area between the Frisco tracks on the south, Detroit & Cincinnati on the west, the Santa Fe tracks on the southeast, and Apache on the north.

In 1960, there were a grand total of 15 black residents in the City of Tulsa north of 36th Street North (Census Tracts 57, 79, and 80), out of a total population of 14,924. 242 residents were classified as of "other races." That's 98.37% white.

What follows is my speculation only, but I think it fits the facts:

* In the '60s, as white families in the far north subdivisions began to grow out of their starter homes, they were drawn to newer development and bigger homes on the southern and eastern edges of town -- e.g. the multitude of Park Plaza subdivisions. The completion of Skelly Drive in the late '50s helped push new development in that direction.

* Bird Creek and its flood-prone tributaries hindered development north of Apache, and until Gilcrease Hills in the late '60s, the Kennedy land in Osage County was unavailable for development.

* In the mid '60s, Tulsa joined the urban renewal craze, using Federal funds to wipe out the heart of the Greenwood district. The expressway cut through the middle of the commercial district and urban renewal took out the rest. The intent of the Model Cities program was to rebuild it as a better community, but it didn't quite happen that way.

* The African-American families displaced by urban renewal had to go somewhere, and the real estate community directed them toward the increasingly less fashionable far north neighborhoods.

* The completion of I-244 right around 1970 cemented the popular conception of everything to the north of it as "the black part of town." Whites from south of 244 avoided going north, except to drive through on the way to the zoo or the airport.

One small correction to your paragraph about the Greenwood & Archer area. It was famous for its black-owned businesses even after the whites burned it out. The residents of Greenwood rebuilt after 1921, and from Sanborn maps and photographs it appears that reborn Greenwood was more solidly built, substantial, and prosperous than what had been destroyed in 1921.

It was the post-'21 Greenwood that was immortalized in the song "Take Me Back to Tulsa" and in the name of the GAP Band. It was the post-'21, reborn Greenwood that you visited with your housekeeper. (I'm assuming you're not 90 years old. [Smiley])

The post-'21, reborn Greenwood wasn't firebombed by an angry white mob; it was bulldozed under government contract as part of expressway construction and a well-intentioned revitalization program. (Some would argue about "well-intentioned," but at least some of the people involved in the Model Cities program were well-meaning.)
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Conan71
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« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2008, 07:46:21 pm »

Michael, I never cease to be amazed by your encyclopedic mind for Tulsa history and your analysis.

Good stuff.
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« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2008, 08:26:47 pm »

Just my take on the issue that coincides with Micheals info is that in the mid 70's two things happened that helped in the shift yo the southeast part of town, and they both happened close to the same time. Two major developments were the Ford Glass Plant, and Woodland Hills Mall. In the early 70's 61st and Memorial were kind of the outskirts of Tulsa. Memorial was two lane I think from there all the way south to Leonard. My parents bought their first new car from Ramsey Chevrolet in Bixby in 1969, and a brother of mine bought a car from them in 1974, and I can remember the drive out there was out in the sticks once you passed 61st. Also at that time they were starting construction of The Falls apartment complex.

Like I said just my thoughts.
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« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2008, 09:41:07 pm »

In August 1971, Memorial was 2 lanes south of the railroad tracks at 41st Street. I remember a traffic light at either 71st or 81st. There was a gas station at 71st and another at 91st (I think, Sam's DX). There wasn't much else all the way to about 131st.  Then not much until you crossed the river into the main part of Bixby.

Mingo Valley Expy only went as far south as 21st Street.
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Hometown
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« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2008, 09:48:38 pm »

Hey Michael, Thanks for the detail and I stand corrected re Archer and Greenwood.  I feel like the stadium is about to finish off what Urban Renewal didn't.  Before "north of 244" the axim was "north of Archer."  Let me ask you are there still neighborhoods of working class Whites in far North Tulsa?  Is there anything else to tell about Suburban Acres?

Bixby!  Well, I can remember riding in the back of my sister's Corvair going through the country on the way to Sparkey's graveyard in Jenks.  Way out in the sticks.  It was better than a scary movie.


« Last Edit: July 22, 2008, 09:51:37 pm by Hometown » Logged
MichaelBates
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« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2008, 10:23:07 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by dbacks fan

Just my take on the issue that coincides with Micheals info is that in the mid 70's two things happened that helped in the shift yo the southeast part of town, and they both happened close to the same time. Two major developments were the Ford Glass Plant, and Woodland Hills Mall. In the early 70's 61st and Memorial were kind of the outskirts of Tulsa. Memorial was two lane I think from there all the way south to Leonard. My parents bought their first new car from Ramsey Chevrolet in Bixby in 1969, and a brother of mine bought a car from them in 1974, and I can remember the drive out there was out in the sticks once you passed 61st. Also at that time they were starting construction of The Falls apartment complex.

Like I said just my thoughts.



Good points both.

"It's like havin' a friend at the factory,
Havin' a friend at the factory!
Ramsey Chevrolet is Little Detroit!"
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MichaelBates
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« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2008, 11:39:34 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Hometown

Hey Michael, Thanks for the detail and I stand corrected re Archer and Greenwood.  I feel like the stadium is about to finish off what Urban Renewal didn't.  Before "north of 244" the axim was "north of Archer."  Let me ask you are there still neighborhoods of working class Whites in far North Tulsa?  Is there anything else to tell about Suburban Acres?

Bixby!  Well, I can remember riding in the back of my sister's Corvair going through the country on the way to Sparkey's graveyard in Jenks.  Way out in the sticks.  It was better than a scary movie.



The ballpark itself thankfully won't require any demolition other than one little windowless cinderblock building. The remaining block of 1922 buildings on Greenwood itself will remain. If anything, the proximity of the ballpark might make it feasible to open restaurants and clubs in the 100 block of N. Greenwood.

Much of the ballpark land was railroad right of way, as it was where the Sand Springs and MK&T lines crossed. The Sanborn maps show a couple of factories neared to Elgin. (I hope they don't tear down the old hotel which is now a U-Haul storage center. That rotating U-Haul truck could be like Tulsa's version of the big CITGO sign behind Fenway Park.)

Suburban Acres shopping center was around in 1957 -- it had a page in a "Tulsarama" shopping supplement from June of that year. I've got some images from that supplement that I need to find and upload.

The answer to your question about white working-class neighborhoods in far north Tulsa appears to be not until you get to Turley, according to this map of Tulsa County 2000 Census demographic data by census tract. There's also an isolated subdivision off of Delaware north of 41st St. N., near the site of Lakeview Amusement Park, which seems to be evenly divided, based on the 2000 data.

(Off topic Google Street View funny: I think this may be one of the ice storm debris trucks.)
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booWorld
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« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2008, 06:18:44 am »

quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates

I hope they don't tear down the old hotel which is now a U-Haul storage center...


The building has characteristics of Art Deco.  I'd like to see it preserved.
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