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Talk About Tulsa => Development & New Businesses => Topic started by: Conan71 on August 19, 2014, 03:21:53 pm



Title: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 19, 2014, 03:21:53 pm
Someone said this needed it’s own thread:

Quote
Developer Confirms Premium Outlet Mall Coming To Tulsa

The specific stores reportedly coming to Tulsa have not been announced.

A spokesperson for the city of Tulsa says Simon Properties is planning to build an multi-million dollar premium outlet center in south Tulsa.

Simon Properties has dozens of premium outlet centers across the nation with stores like Banana Republic, Barneys New York, Crate and Barrel, Michael Kors, Polo Ralph Lauren and more. It has not been announced which stores would be at the south Tulsa location.

A spokesperson says Simon Properties, the company that operates Tulsa's Woodland Hills Mall, already has purchased land at U.S. Highway 75 and 61st Street for the 800,000-square foot outlet mall.

We'll have more on this story tonight at 9 and 10 p.m.


http://www.newson6.com/story/26319071/developer-confirms-premium-outlet-mall-coming-to-tulsa


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: DTowner on August 19, 2014, 03:35:16 pm
This is great news and should further fortify Tulsa's southwestern sales tax flank for the next 10 years.

I wonder what impact, if any, this will have on the once rumored outlet mall on the eastern edge of Tulsa along I44?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on August 19, 2014, 04:14:50 pm
This story does not merit its own thread.   ;D  I do like this development.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: bacjz00 on August 19, 2014, 04:17:15 pm
To be quite honest, I think this development would probably do a little bit better over near Hard Rock in Catoosa.  It would pull more of the folks over from NWA.    I think the West Tulsa will do just fine too though.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on August 19, 2014, 07:38:32 pm
To be quite honest, I think this development would probably do a little bit better over near Hard Rock in Catoosa.  It would pull more of the folks over from NWA.    I think the West Tulsa will do just fine too though.

If they're driving to Tulsa, they're not going to care if they have to drive 15 more minutes. The outlet mall in OKC is near nothing and on the south side but draws from Tulsa.

I'm wondering about the impact on Turkey Mountain trails.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: SXSW on August 19, 2014, 09:29:35 pm
If they're driving to Tulsa, they're not going to care if they have to drive 15 more minutes. The outlet mall in OKC is near nothing and on the south side but draws from Tulsa.

I'm wondering about the impact on Turkey Mountain trails.

Is it on the east side of 75?  I assumed it to be on the land to the west south of 61st and east of Union.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on August 20, 2014, 07:16:06 am
Is it on the east side of 75?  I assumed it to be on the land to the west south of 61st and east of Union.
North East corner according the TW


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Townsend on August 20, 2014, 07:17:16 am
North East corner according the TW

(http://s.lnimg.com/photo/poster_768/a1ae05e133614954826644cd654ad003.jpg)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: bacjz00 on August 20, 2014, 07:20:08 am
It's on the east side of 75, stretching from 61st street northward.

That portion of land really isn't a part of Turkey Mountain proper as it is privately owned.    While there will undoubtedly have to be some grading done to build an outlet mall there, there should be little to no effect on the portion of the mountain where cyclists and joggers frequent, other than increased vehicle traffic coming and going past the trailhead.

This portion of Tulsa is vastly underdeveloped IMO.   While it's nice to see the hills throughout this area, progress marches forward.  


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 20, 2014, 07:58:40 am
It looks like the eastern border of the mall abuts a section we refer to as pipeline (there’s a pipeliner road which runs north to south).  It affects lesser used expert trails for the most part as well as some intermediate and easier trails which connect the Westside Y to the area where the mall will be.  There’s still plenty of trail access from the Y to the rest of the trail system.  Just a wild guess, but probably less than 20% of the people who use the Turkey Mountain/YMCA trail system utilize this particular area.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: DowntownDan on August 20, 2014, 08:30:34 am
I'm always glad to see tax money staying I Tulsa so if this is going to be built, better here than in the suburbs.  I'm guessing this one will succeed and the one in East Tulsa will fold.  I always thought it was an awkward spot.  If NWA was a target, you would think closer to the Hard Rock would be a better fit since there is still a lot of land out there and a bunch of hotels.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: BKDotCom on August 20, 2014, 09:38:57 am
This portion of Tulsa is vastly underdeveloped IMO.   While it's nice to see the hills throughout this area, progress marches forward.  

Perhaps
I suppose you could say the same about the area's on each side of the Golden Gate bridge (Muir Woods / Golden Gate Rec area / Presidio),  Central Park in NYC, and Stanley Park in Vancouver.




Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Stanley1 on August 20, 2014, 09:48:31 am
There is a lot going up on the west side, along the 75 corridor. 

This at 61st street.

At 71st-81st you have Tulsa Hills.

At 81st they are breaking ground on The Walk at Tulsa Hills.

Also at 81st they are breaking ground on the Main Event entertainment spot.

And there is still a lot of land available to do even more.  At some point, somebody is going to put something in the big open lot at 71st and Elwood.  There is still land available on the southwest corner of 75 and 81st Street.  And a few other similar locations.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on August 20, 2014, 12:32:38 pm
There is a lot going up on the west side, along the 75 corridor. 

This at 61st street.

At 71st-81st you have Tulsa Hills.

At 81st they are breaking ground on The Walk at Tulsa Hills.

Also at 81st they are breaking ground on the Main Event entertainment spot.

And there is still a lot of land available to do even more.  At some point, somebody is going to put something in the big open lot at 71st and Elwood.  There is still land available on the southwest corner of 75 and 81st Street.  And a few other similar locations.

Good summary. Showing us all we do not need to pour millions into downtown to have a successful and vibrant city.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on August 20, 2014, 12:51:07 pm
Good summary. Showing us all we do not need to pour millions into downtown to have a successful and vibrant city.

Oh, this has been expensive and is going to continue to be expensive. The city already gave TIF money to Tulsa Hills to even open, and then Tulsa widened 81st from Olympia to US75 and has completely rebuilt 71st from the river to 33rd W Ave.  The exits at 81st and 61st are old and tiny and won’t be up to all this traffic so the state will have to be replace them, very soon. 75 itself is already overloaded with traffic so you are probably looking at a couple of hundred million to fix the highway from I-44 to 81st. Then 61st will have to be widened, and 81st from Olympia to Elwood, and then Elwood itself with a major intersections completed at 81st and Elwood, 81st and Union and 61st and Union. This is easily going to cost what the BOK Center and Oneok cost, combined.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rebound on August 20, 2014, 12:56:11 pm
It looks like the eastern border of the mall abuts a section we refer to as pipeline (there’s a pipeliner road which runs north to south).  It affects lesser used expert trails for the most part as well as some intermediate and easier trails which connect the Westside Y to the area where the mall will be.  There’s still plenty of trail access from the Y to the rest of the trail system.  Just a wild guess, but probably less than 20% of the people who use the Turkey Mountain/YMCA trail system utilize this particular area.

I've only ridden Turkey Mountain once or twice, and never in the area in question, but this thread got my interest up and I spent a little time just now looking around on-line at maps and need to ask a couple of questions:

The INCOG trail map (see link) shows a ton of trails in the NW section of Turkey Mountain:
http://incog.maps.arcgis.com/apps/PublicGallery/map.html?appid=1a8472e4977843388265fe1a973b3c9d&webmap=856ab3929fb14561a5d75b989e887d1a

But the River Parks Trail Map (PDF available as first link on the page below)  shows a much smaller official park boundary for Turkey Mountain Urban Wilderness Area:
http://www.riverparks.org/explore-river-parks/park-maps-trail-conditions/

The difference in outline of the two maps seems to be about 320 acres (a guess, based on mile lines).  And the land for the new mall is (again, an estimate) about 80 acres.  Which leaves roughly 240 acres that is full of trails, but not (as far as I can tell) part of the official wilderness area.  That is a  huge chunk of real estate that, if developed, would really put a crimp in Turkey Mountain as it is now understood to be.

So, who owns the land in question?  And has any consideration been given to protecting it?

I know I'm probably really late to the party with this, so if there is an old string, etc, please point me to it.  Otherwise, any info appreciated.

 


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Stanley1 on August 20, 2014, 01:51:53 pm
Oh, this has been expensive and is going to continue to be expensive. The city already gave TIF money to Tulsa Hills to even open, and then Tulsa widened 81st from Olympia to US75 and has completely rebuilt 71st from the river to 33rd W Ave.  The exits at 81st and 61st are old and tiny and won’t be up to all this traffic so the state will have to be replace them, very soon. 75 itself is already overloaded with traffic so you are probably looking at a couple of hundred million to fix the highway from I-44 to 81st. Then 61st will have to be widened, and 81st from Olympia to Elwood, and then Elwood itself with a major intersections completed at 81st and Elwood, 81st and Union and 61st and Union. This is easily going to cost what the BOK Center and Oneok cost, combined.

75 is probably next in line to be updated/expanded anyways.  So that will work out nice.  The I44 project is wrapping up.  The Creek Turnpike has been widened.  169 appears fine to me.  244 has had a lot of work done in recent years, including the new bridge that will be finished soon.

Pack up the crew, and simply move them over to 75.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 20, 2014, 01:51:58 pm
Oh, this has been expensive and is going to continue to be expensive. The city already gave TIF money to Tulsa Hills to even open, and then Tulsa widened 81st from Olympia to US75 and has completely rebuilt 71st from the river to 33rd W Ave.  The exits at 81st and 61st are old and tiny and won’t be up to all this traffic so the state will have to be replace them, very soon. 75 itself is already overloaded with traffic so you are probably looking at a couple of hundred million to fix the highway from I-44 to 81st. Then 61st will have to be widened, and 81st from Olympia to Elwood, and then Elwood itself with a major intersections completed at 81st and Elwood, 81st and Union and 61st and Union. This is easily going to cost what the BOK Center and Oneok cost, combined.

The stretch of Elwood/61st from Hwy 75 to 71st St. is a pretty hazardous stretch of road with no shoulder, blind hills, and the huge hill which tops out at the old Turkey parking lot.  I suspect we will see a good uptick in accidents along there if they don’t update the road first.  I’ve seen a couple of roll-overs on Elwood hill in the recent past.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rdj on August 20, 2014, 02:05:03 pm
75 is probably next in line to be updated/expanded anyways.  So that will work out nice.  The I44 project is wrapping up.  The Creek Turnpike has been widened.  169 appears fine to me.  244 has had a lot of work done in recent years, including the new bridge that will be finished soon.

Pack up the crew, and simply move them over to 75.

169 from the Creek north is the next in line.  Not for widening necessarily but for repair of the shoddy job the first contractor did.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 20, 2014, 02:06:33 pm
I've only ridden Turkey Mountain once or twice, and never in the area in question, but this thread got my interest up and I spent a little time just now looking around on-line at maps and need to ask a couple of questions:

The INCOG trail map (see link) shows a ton of trails in the NW section of Turkey Mountain:
http://incog.maps.arcgis.com/apps/PublicGallery/map.html?appid=1a8472e4977843388265fe1a973b3c9d&webmap=856ab3929fb14561a5d75b989e887d1a

But the River Parks Trail Map (PDF available as first link on the page below)  shows a much smaller official park boundary for Turkey Mountain Urban Wilderness Area:
http://www.riverparks.org/explore-river-parks/park-maps-trail-conditions/

The difference in outline of the two maps seems to be about 320 acres (a guess, based on mile lines).  And the land for the new mall is (again, an estimate) about 80 acres.  Which leaves roughly 240 acres that is full of trails, but not (as far as I can tell) part of the official wilderness area.  That is a  huge chunk of real estate that, if developed, would really put a crimp in Turkey Mountain as it is now understood to be.

So, who owns the land in question?  And has any consideration been given to protecting it?

I know I'm probably really late to the party with this, so if there is an old string, etc, please point me to it.  Otherwise, any info appreciated.

 


The Westside Y is at the far NW end of the trails.  I have no idea how far their property reaches, there aren’t any boundary fences I’ve observed on this part of the area (other than along 61st St.), though there are some in the area which is the “official” Turkey Mountain wilderness area.  This project will still leave quite a bit of trail for hiking and biking if you look at the Incog map.  I prefer the west side when the main area gets crowded with walkers and runners at peak times, it’s becoming more hazardous, especially with all the people who let their dogs run loose or have them on long leads.

I suspect the land to the west of the power line section is mostly privately owned but the owner must not be too concerned about others using their property.  Same with land to the south of 61st St.  There’s been quite a bit of trail building in that area as well over the last year and I’m guessing other than the water tower enclosure at the top of Elwood hill, the rest of that land is privately owned.

One concern for me as well is this is natural habitat for foxes, bobcats, and all sorts of creatures.  I hate to see them getting squeezed even more.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on August 20, 2014, 02:59:00 pm
The stretch of Elwood/61st from Hwy 75 to 71st St. is a pretty hazardous stretch of road with no shoulder, blind hills, and the huge hill which tops out at the old Turkey parking lot.  I suspect we will see a good uptick in accidents along there if they don’t update the road first.  I’ve seen a couple of roll-overs on Elwood hill in the recent past.

Elwood is closed right now going north from 71st. Does anyone know what's going on?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on August 20, 2014, 03:02:35 pm
The Westside Y is at the far NW end of the trails.  I have no idea how far their property reaches, there aren’t any boundary fences I’ve observed on this part of the area (other than along 61st St.), though there are some in the area which is the “official” Turkey Mountain wilderness area.  This project will still leave quite a bit of trail for hiking and biking if you look at the Incog map.  I prefer the west side when the main area gets crowded with walkers and runners at peak times, it’s becoming more hazardous, especially with all the people who let their dogs run loose or have them on long leads.

I suspect the land to the west of the power line section is mostly privately owned but the owner must not be too concerned about others using their property.  Same with land to the south of 61st St.  There’s been quite a bit of trail building in that area as well over the last year and I’m guessing other than the water tower enclosure at the top of Elwood hill, the rest of that land is privately owned.

One concern for me as well is this is natural habitat for foxes, bobcats, and all sorts of creatures.  I hate to see them getting squeezed even more.

That big ugly open field on the southwest corner of 75 and 61st would be perfect, can they move it there? It's closer to Tulsa Hills and doesn't impact Turkey Mountain at all.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 20, 2014, 03:30:19 pm
Elwood is closed right now going north from 71st. Does anyone know what's going on?

Final stage of the 71st & Elwood project is what I heard.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: SXSW on August 20, 2014, 03:42:53 pm
That big ugly open field on the southwest corner of 75 and 61st would be perfect, can they move it there? It's closer to Tulsa Hills and doesn't impact Turkey Mountain at all.

I was hoping that was where it was going.  I think it's a bad idea to have this so close to Turkey Mtn and wish this land was protected in some way.  Plenty of other plots of land to put this that are not abutting a cherished urban wilderness.

I think it is inevitable that this whole part of Tulsa fills up with development, similar to what happened in south Tulsa 15-20 years ago.  It has highway access (though 75 will need to be upgraded), relative close proximity to downtown and midtown across the river, finally a good variety of retail (still needs a full service grocery store) and decent schools in the Jenks district to 61st St (a Jenks northwest elem school is planned to accommodate the growth and likely another middle school).  The rolling hills remind me of parts of south Tulsa before it exploded with development in the 90's, hopefully some of it is preserved.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: YoungTulsan on August 20, 2014, 03:43:41 pm
That big ugly open field on the southwest corner of 75 and 61st would be perfect, can they move it there? It's closer to Tulsa Hills and doesn't impact Turkey Mountain at all.

That would be directly across the street from the crime infested housing projects.  That'll never happen.   You'll note that the only business at 61st & Union is a blunt mart.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rdj on August 20, 2014, 03:47:11 pm
A big chunk of the land south of the Pepsi plant and north of 61st between the river and where this outlet mall is reported to go is owned by an LLC with Frederic Dorwart listed as the registered agent.  Dorwart is Kaiser's attorney.  Not too hard to jump to the conclusion he controls a bunch of the land around Turkey Mountain and will make sure it remains public lands.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 20, 2014, 04:11:26 pm
Just another Simon mess....


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 20, 2014, 04:25:40 pm
A big chunk of the land south of the Pepsi plant and north of 61st between the river and where this outlet mall is reported to go is owned by an LLC with Frederic Dorwart listed as the registered agent.  Dorwart is Kaiser's attorney.  Not too hard to jump to the conclusion he controls a bunch of the land around Turkey Mountain and will make sure it remains public lands.

That is good to know.  Any other owners listed in the area?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on August 20, 2014, 04:28:48 pm
This plot of land was going to be a medical office park or summat a few years ago. There was even a thread on here about it.

Contrary to what people may think, developers don't just point at a blank space on the map and say "build there" they are generally looking at properties available for development or sale. South side of 61st just may not be available. South of 81st and you get into no big plots and unhappy neighbors. I suspect 61st will be widened from 75 to the mall, possibly at developer's expense, with all traffic directed to 75. Elwood would stay local only.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 20, 2014, 04:50:48 pm
This plot of land was going to be a medical office park or summat a few years ago. There was even a thread on here about it.

Contrary to what people may think, developers don't just point at a blank space on the map and say "build there" they are generally looking at properties available for development or sale. South side of 61st just may not be available. South of 81st and you get into no big plots and unhappy neighbors. I suspect 61st will be widened from 75 to the mall, possibly at developer's expense, with all traffic directed to 75. Elwood would stay local only.

One could hope, but there’s nothing to keep people from short-cutting from 71st to the mall unless they blocked Elwood from the peak of Elwood Hill to east of the Mall.  Other than some property entrances and the water tower, there’s nothing else which needs access from the road after the neighborhood to the west of the Turkey Mountain park entrance. 


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on August 20, 2014, 05:44:22 pm
One could hope, but there’s nothing to keep people from short-cutting from 71st to the mall unless they blocked Elwood from the peak of Elwood Hill to east of the Mall.  Other than some property entrances and the water tower, there’s nothing else which needs access from the road after the neighborhood to the west of the Turkey Mountain park entrance. 

The city should disconnect 61st from Elwood, take out part of the curve at the top. They close it constantly for bad weather anyway.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Nik on August 21, 2014, 06:47:20 am
I took the Premium Outlets in Allen, TX and put that on top of 61st & Hwy 75 just to get a sense of scale. Based on some talk here, this may be a bit further south than the proposed site, but you still get the idea of the footprint this will have.
(http://i.imgur.com/52k7PVS.jpg) (http://imgur.com/52k7PVS)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 21, 2014, 08:08:25 am
How many square feet is the Premium Outlets?  I believe they said this one will be 800,000 square feet.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on August 21, 2014, 08:12:57 am
I took the Premium Outlets in Allen, TX and put that on top of 61st & Hwy 75 just to get a sense of scale. Based on some talk here, this may be a bit further south than the proposed site, but you still get the idea of the footprint this will have.
(http://i.imgur.com/52k7PVS.jpg) (http://imgur.com/52k7PVS)

That thing in Allen is just a god awful development. Thankfully, I don't think that can do that square thing on this narrow plot of land.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: charky on August 21, 2014, 08:14:13 am
The existing Turkey Mountain trails...and what would be (roughly) lost.

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t31.0-8/s960x960/10504893_10204356579934755_5833360461091939914_o.jpg)

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10363721_10204356581774801_7693435072553594074_n.jpg?oh=8f910b3e36810bd862b46694b785ff5e&oe=54741103&__gda__=1417440380_cf5e9b4c95a958753011b317ff8cfb5d)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 21, 2014, 08:21:21 am
Well, they milked Eastland to death - doing nothing to make it a more user friendly place, like keep the gangsters out.  And Woodland Hills is just a shining example of what a mall should be.  This should be great!!





Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rebound on August 21, 2014, 08:57:15 am
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10363721_10204356581774801_7693435072553594074_n.jpg?oh=8f910b3e36810bd862b46694b785ff5e&oe=54741103&__gda__=1417440380_cf5e9b4c95a958753011b317ff8cfb5d)

Thanks Charky,  I still haven't figured out how to pics here.   In my earlier post, I mentioned all the "unofficial" Turkey Mountain area that I was/am worried about.  If you draw a line over from 61st East to where it intersects with Powerline,  all of the area in that NW quadrant is not part of the official TM area.  It was good to hear about Kaiser's possible involvement, but unless/until this larger boundary becomes official, there should remain a lot of concern over the future of TM.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 21, 2014, 09:01:13 am
It’s creating a crap storm on social media from frequent trail users.  Curious if this is a “done” deal or if the council can intervene.  As Swake alluded to, there are some seriously expensive infrastructure issues which will need to be addressed to accommodate this.  If they get a TIF and the city or county end up paying for the improvements as an incentive, how long does it take for this to really be a worthy investment?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: SXSW on August 21, 2014, 09:07:15 am
It’s creating a crap storm on social media from frequent trail users.  Curious if this is a “done” deal or if the council can intervene.  As Swake alluded to, there are some seriously expensive infrastructure issues which will need to be addressed to accommodate this.  If they get a TIF and the city or county end up paying for the improvements as an incentive, how long does it take for this to really be a worthy investment?

That's what I've seen, and there will be significant mobilization to shoot this down.  And I completely agree.  Nothing should be built in this area, it should remain part of the Turkey Mountain wilderness.  Let them build their crap somewhere else.

Turkey Mountain is one of the city's best assets and shouldn't have part of it eaten up, or even abutting it, by an outlet mall. 


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Vision 2025 on August 21, 2014, 09:08:12 am
It’s creating a crap storm on social media from frequent trail users.  Curious if this is a “done” deal or if the council can intervene.  As Swake alluded to, there are some seriously expensive infrastructure issues which will need to be addressed to accommodate this.  If they get a TIF and the city or county end up paying for the improvements as an incentive, how long does it take for this to really be a worthy investment?
Anybody suggesting to pass the hat and purchase the property, it's been on the market a LONG time


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 21, 2014, 09:10:26 am
Anybody suggesting to pass the hat and purchase the property, it's been on the market a LONG time

If the seller is who we think he is, he doesn’t need the money.  It’s not like this is a huge surprise, they cleared the south end of this plot a year or so back.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Nik on August 21, 2014, 09:11:05 am
How many square feet is the Premium Outlets?  I believe they said this one will be 800,000 square feet.

Allen Premium Outlets is 458,000 sq ft


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cynical on August 21, 2014, 10:22:23 am
It doesn't matter who the owner is. If private property (which this is) is taken for public use, the owner must be compensated for the value of the property taken according to its highest and best use. The highly simplified rule is that a "taking" of private property occurs whenever the government prevents the property owner from economic use of the property. Since any economic development of this tract would require multiple trail closures, preservation of trail access would result in a taking by any standard and would result in the government having to pay damages. What do you think the odds are that the troops can convince the city or the county, as the case may be, to part with several hundred thousand dollars so that the trails which have been permitted to cross this property can remain in place? Of course the owner could donate the property to the RPA or whoever owns the Turkey Mountain park, but based on the River Parks drawings, I suspect that it is separated from the publicly owned park by additional private property.

I'm skeptical.

If the seller is who we think he is, he doesn’t need the money.  It’s not like this is a huge surprise, they cleared the south end of this plot a year or so back.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 21, 2014, 11:11:54 am
It doesn't matter who the owner is. If private property (which this is) is taken for public use, the owner must be compensated for the value of the property taken according to its highest and best use. The highly simplified rule is that a "taking" of private property occurs whenever the government prevents the property owner from economic use of the property. Since any economic development of this tract would require multiple trail closures, preservation of trail access would result in a taking by any standard and would result in the government having to pay damages. What do you think the odds are that the troops can convince the city or the county, as the case may be, to part with several hundred thousand dollars so that the trails which have been permitted to cross this property can remain in place? Of course the owner could donate the property to the RPA or whoever owns the Turkey Mountain park, but based on the River Parks drawings, I suspect that it is separated from the publicly owned park by additional private property.

I'm skeptical.


My two points were: it appears the owner of the property is the wealthiest man in Tulsa.  He doesn’t need the money from the sale.  My other point was, you have to get zoning approval because this will necessarily cause a huge clusterfark with the existing roadways in the area.  I certainly don’t advocate government seizure of private property if that’s what you thought I was saying, I do advocate smart zoning.  Certainly the planning commission can refuse to permit zoning for a specific purpose if it would be a disruption to the surrounding area or required an incredibly expensive infrastructure update.  Something with this traffic volume will require that.

One silver lining someone posted on Facebook is it could provide better parking for trail access on the westerly part of the trail system.  As popular as the trail system has become, finding parking at the base parking lot is impossible on most Saturdays and Sundays and even some weeknights.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Stanley1 on August 21, 2014, 12:06:22 pm


Turkey Mountain is one of the city's best assets and shouldn't have part of it eaten up, or even abutting it, by an outlet mall.  

That is crazy.  Sorry, but it is.  Nobody moves to Tulsa or visits Tulsa b/c of Turkey Mountain.

While they may not be "wilderness" trails, Tulsa has WAY more than necessary trails for bikers and runners throughout the city.  And with the Gathering Place, and the trails it will create, taking away a corner of Turkey Mountain isn't going to hurt anything.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 21, 2014, 12:29:28 pm
That is crazy.  Sorry, but it is.  Nobody moves to Tulsa or visits Tulsa b/c of Turkey Mountain.

While they may not be "wilderness" trails, Tulsa has WAY more than necessary trails for bikers and runners throughout the city.  And with the Gathering Place, and the trails it will create, taking away a corner of Turkey Mountain isn't going to hurt anything.

That’s actually untrue on the visit part.  People come to Tulsa specifically for events held at Turkey Mountain: mountain bike races, trail races, there’s even a duathlon this Sunday.  They have also done the Warrior Dash there.  I’m personally aware of people coming from Arkansas, Kansas, Texas, and all over Oklahoma for mountain bike races.  I read elsewhere there was just an event which attracted 7000 participants to TM, though not quite certain what that would have been, nor how that many people managed to get there. 

Turkey Mountain is well known throughout the mountain bike world as a bucket list trail system.

That said, I’m not for the outlet mall, but losing some of the trails on the west side will not diminish the over-all attraction of Turkey Mountain.  Who knows, maybe with co-located attractions that means more families travel here to shop and play.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: SXSW on August 21, 2014, 01:03:23 pm
That is crazy.  Sorry, but it is.  Nobody moves to Tulsa or visits Tulsa b/c of Turkey Mountain.

While they may not be "wilderness" trails, Tulsa has WAY more than necessary trails for bikers and runners throughout the city.  And with the Gathering Place, and the trails it will create, taking away a corner of Turkey Mountain isn't going to hurt anything.

I've known people who have moved to Tulsa on large part because of the river trails and Turkey Mountain.  It was a major selling point, and compared to other cities in our region, there isn't anything else like it.  Why even try to damage that even if it's just a small piece?  It's still adjacent to a wilderness area popular with hikers, runners and bikers and a well-known preserve for native animals like foxes and bobcats.  I'm not against there being an outlet mall but put it somewhere else.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: carltonplace on August 21, 2014, 01:04:49 pm
That is crazy.  Sorry, but it is.  Nobody moves to Tulsa or visits Tulsa b/c of Turkey Mountain.

While they may not be "wilderness" trails, Tulsa has WAY more than necessary trails for bikers and runners throughout the city.  And with the Gathering Place, and the trails it will create, taking away a corner of Turkey Mountain isn't going to hurt anything.


We need more trails...or at least trail connections. Our trail system is great but many of the trails are unconnected to the larger whole. They just stop abruptly.

It would be awesome to get to every part of the city using the trail system like a biking or jogging highway.

(http://www.leesbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/INCOGtrailmap.jpg)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on August 21, 2014, 01:08:01 pm
My two points were: it appears the owner of the property is the wealthiest man in Tulsa.  He doesn’t need the money from the sale.  My other point was, you have to get zoning approval because this will necessarily cause a huge clusterfark with the existing roadways in the area.  I certainly don’t advocate government seizure of private property if that’s what you thought I was saying, I do advocate smart zoning.  Certainly the planning commission can refuse to permit zoning for a specific purpose if it would be a disruption to the surrounding area or required an incredibly expensive infrastructure update.  Something with this traffic volume will require that.

One silver lining someone posted on Facebook is it could provide better parking for trail access on the westerly part of the trail system.  As popular as the trail system has become, finding parking at the base parking lot is impossible on most Saturdays and Sundays and even some weeknights.

I believe this is the only part of Turkey Mountain NOT controlled by GK or Riverparks.

Which means the current trails are "trespassing on private property" technically....


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 21, 2014, 01:14:35 pm
That is crazy.  Sorry, but it is.  Nobody moves to Tulsa or visits Tulsa b/c of Turkey Mountain.

While they may not be "wilderness" trails, Tulsa has WAY more than necessary trails for bikers and runners throughout the city.  And with the Gathering Place, and the trails it will create, taking away a corner of Turkey Mountain isn't going to hurt anything.


And just to pile on a little more....

What's crazy is the idea that we need any kind of mall in that location.  There is a whole lot of other empty land not too far from that - like across the highway on the south side of 61st, so this is truly, absolutely unnecessary.  And for that matter, an outlet mall - especially by Simon, really isn't necessary anywhere in northeast Oklahoma.  But if they insist, there is a ready made place down south at Riverwalk that could be several steps up in class for Simon and reduce unused property in the area.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: DTowner on August 21, 2014, 01:22:43 pm
I think Turkey Mountain is a major Tulsa asset, but anyone who thinks land long 75 Highway near a major transportation interchange and a booming new retail area was going to lay fallow forever is living in a fantasy land.

Long leaps of assumptions are being made about who may own this land based on nothing more than the name of the lawyer who is the registered service agent.  However, even if the assumption is correct, it does not change the fact that land fronting Hwy 75 in this area is valuable commercial property and Tulsa will benefit greatly from its development (ultimately on all 4 corners of 61st & Hwy 75). 

If trails are currently traversing this privately owned land, then folks have been trespassing.  There are plenty of ways to protect and buffer Turkey Mountain from this development, but stopping it is shortsighted for Tulsa. However, if anyone wants to “shut it down,” then you better come up with a lot of money to purchase the land from Simon because it sounds like its already got it under contract.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on August 21, 2014, 01:34:50 pm
It should be named "Turkey Mountain Outlets" and their slogan should be "Hike on over for savings" just to fuel the fire.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 21, 2014, 01:36:07 pm
I think Turkey Mountain is a major Tulsa asset, but anyone who thinks land long 75 Highway near a major transportation interchange and a booming new retail area was going to lay fallow forever is living in a fantasy land.

Long leaps of assumptions are being made about who may own this land based on nothing more than the name of the lawyer who is the registered service agent.  However, even if the assumption is correct, it does not change the fact that land fronting Hwy 75 in this area is valuable commercial property and Tulsa will benefit greatly from its development (ultimately on all 4 corners of 61st & Hwy 75). 

If trails are currently traversing this privately owned land, then folks have been trespassing.  There are plenty of ways to protect and buffer Turkey Mountain from this development, but stopping it is shortsighted for Tulsa. However, if anyone wants to “shut it down,” then you better come up with a lot of money to purchase the land from Simon because it sounds like its already got it under contract.



Well, we need to just bulldoze Turkey mountain level - I think I mentioned this earlier somewhere - and there is a whole big place to develop available!!

Growth for growth's sake...!!  Not just a good idea, but a way of life!!


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 21, 2014, 01:38:16 pm
I think Turkey Mountain is a major Tulsa asset, but anyone who thinks land long 75 Highway near a major transportation interchange and a booming new retail area was going to lay fallow forever is living in a fantasy land.

Long leaps of assumptions are being made about who may own this land based on nothing more than the name of the lawyer who is the registered service agent.  However, even if the assumption is correct, it does not change the fact that land fronting Hwy 75 in this area is valuable commercial property and Tulsa will benefit greatly from its development (ultimately on all 4 corners of 61st & Hwy 75). 

If trails are currently traversing this privately owned land, then folks have been trespassing.  There are plenty of ways to protect and buffer Turkey Mountain from this development, but stopping it is shortsighted for Tulsa. However, if anyone wants to “shut it down,” then you better come up with a lot of money to purchase the land from Simon because it sounds like its already got it under contract.


And certainly the land owners could simply build a fence and close off the space to any usage if this plan were to tank and it would be just as useless to riders and hikers, but it would still be pristine green space.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cynical on August 21, 2014, 02:28:21 pm
Conan, I don't see a substantial zoning issue in this discussion. While I agree that zoning is useful to avoid or mitigate harm from property development, as with any governmental action that affects private rights, it has to be reasonable. I think we agree that if the real reason for the city's land use restrictions was the preservation of public access across this parcel of private property, the use of the zoning power to prevent economic use of this property would be unconstitutional.

Where I don't agree regards the infrastructure issue. It is legal for the city to require the infrastructure issue to be addressed and to condition approval on the issue being addressed adequately. The city's concerns about the adequacy of road infrastructure could reasonably be dealt with by requiring the developer, as a condition of PUD approval, to contribute toward the necessary infrastructure improvements and to negotiate with the developer regarding the percentages and the means of paying the public portion of the cost. Simply saying "no" would be compelling evidence that the infrastructure issue was a mere pretext.

With the highway next door and no other legal land uses adversely affected, an outlet mall in that location presents relatively few serious public infrastructure issues beyond the need to fix the 61st St./Hwy 75 interchange that already needs fixing. Since the interchange is already part of the public street system, using a TID to pay for the largest portion of the interchange improvement would be the best way of getting it done.

Incidentally, the mention of the "wealthiest man in Tulsa" is a red herring for two reasons:

1. Even if it was owned by the wealthiest man in Tulsa, he would be entitled to the same constitutional protection as you or me. The city can't take my property or his without paying for it.
2. This tract is not owned by the wealthiest man in Tulsa. The owner is not even represented by Frederick Dorwart. The property you refer to is separated from this tract by another privately-owned tract.

Whatever we as individuals or as a group think about the relative merits of outlet malls and urban wilderness, treating this development as a taking of public property for private use as some have implied is illegitimate. This tract is and has been privately owned, however many mountain bikers have ridden across it. No one is chipping away at the Turkey Mountain Wilderness Park. If the city, which owns the park, wants to own the rest of Turkey Mountain, there are legal procedures available to the city to accomplish that. If the city wants to prevent Beeline Sixty-One Properties, LLC, or its successors in title, from using this land for any viable economic use in order to preserve the bike trails, fine. It can condemn the land and pay for it.

FWIW, I have no involvement in this development nor with any of the parties to this development. I live in the area and use the 61st and Hwy 75 interchange at least twice each day on average, so I have seen the problems with the bridge and entrance/exit ramps.

My two points were: it appears the owner of the property is the wealthiest man in Tulsa.  He doesn’t need the money from the sale.  My other point was, you have to get zoning approval because this will necessarily cause a huge clusterfark with the existing roadways in the area.  I certainly don’t advocate government seizure of private property if that’s what you thought I was saying, I do advocate smart zoning.  Certainly the planning commission can refuse to permit zoning for a specific purpose if it would be a disruption to the surrounding area or required an incredibly expensive infrastructure update.  Something with this traffic volume will require that.

One silver lining someone posted on Facebook is it could provide better parking for trail access on the westerly part of the trail system.  As popular as the trail system has become, finding parking at the base parking lot is impossible on most Saturdays and Sundays and even some weeknights.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: DTowner on August 21, 2014, 03:05:39 pm

Well, we need to just bulldoze Turkey mountain level - I think I mentioned this earlier somewhere - and there is a whole big place to develop available!!

Growth for growth's sake...!!  Not just a good idea, but a way of life!!


Hyperbole is not an argument.  Turkey Mountain is a park in the middle of a city.  Preserving it and denying all development on the adjacent privately owned land are not one and the same.  Unless someone buys this land to preserve it (and it looks like that is too late), the land adjacent to Turkey Mountain is going to be developed.  The only questions are when and for what use. 

Simon is not in the business of "growth for growth's sake."  Simon sees an unmet need and believes it can make money by investing in Tulsa and building something Tulsa doesn't have.  Simon could have elected to pave over a corn field in Bixby or Glenpool and added to the suburban sprawl.  Instead, it chose a vacant parcel of land fronting a highway in a fast growing retail area.  This is a far better use of existing infrastructure even with the needed improvements it will bring.  And it helps preserve and enhance Tulsa's sales tax base.  I see this as a great win for Tulsa and welcome it.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 21, 2014, 03:22:44 pm
Conan, I don't see a substantial zoning issue in this discussion. While I agree that zoning is useful to avoid or mitigate harm from property development, as with any governmental action that affects private rights, it has to be reasonable. I think we agree that if the real reason for the city's land use restrictions was the preservation of public access across this parcel of private property, the use of the zoning power to prevent economic use of this property would be unconstitutional.

Where I don't agree regards the infrastructure issue. It is legal for the city to require the infrastructure issue to be addressed and to condition approval on the issue being addressed adequately. The city's concerns about the adequacy of road infrastructure could reasonably be dealt with by requiring the developer, as a condition of PUD approval, to contribute toward the necessary infrastructure improvements and to negotiate with the developer regarding the percentages and the means of paying the public portion of the cost. Simply saying "no" would be compelling evidence that the infrastructure issue was a mere pretext.

With the highway next door and no other legal land uses adversely affected, an outlet mall in that location presents relatively few serious public infrastructure issues beyond the need to fix the 61st St./Hwy 75 interchange that already needs fixing. Since the interchange is already part of the public street system, using a TID to pay for the largest portion of the interchange improvement would be the best way of getting it done.

Incidentally, the mention of the "wealthiest man in Tulsa" is a red herring for two reasons:

1. Even if it was owned by the wealthiest man in Tulsa, he would be entitled to the same constitutional protection as you or me. The city can't take my property or his without paying for it.
2. This tract is not owned by the wealthiest man in Tulsa. The owner is not even represented by Frederick Dorwart. The property you refer to is separated from this tract by another privately-owned tract.

Whatever we as individuals or as a group think about the relative merits of outlet malls and urban wilderness, treating this development as a taking of public property for private use as some have implied is illegitimate. This tract is and has been privately owned, however many mountain bikers have ridden across it. No one is chipping away at the Turkey Mountain Wilderness Park. If the city, which owns the park, wants to own the rest of Turkey Mountain, there are legal procedures available to the city to accomplish that. If the city wants to prevent Beeline Sixty-One Properties, LLC, or its successors in title, from using this land for any viable economic use in order to preserve the bike trails, fine. It can condemn the land and pay for it.

FWIW, I have no involvement in this development nor with any of the parties to this development. I live in the area and use the 61st and Hwy 75 interchange at least twice each day on average, so I have seen the problems with the bridge and entrance/exit ramps.


I stand corrected on the property owner.  That was asserted by another poster earlier in this thread.  My only point in whether or not a seller needed the money or not was simply stating if Kaiser was, in fact, the property owner, a deal falling through would not break him.

One theme which keeps getting brought up on an FB page a lot of trail users from Turkey use.  Someone has suggested adverse possession could apply here since people have been trespassing on the property for many years.  I recall the YMCA using trails back in this area as far back as 1976 or ’77 when I went to day camp there.  I honestly don’t think there’s a real case for that and who would have standing as a legal entity to claim adverse possession?

I suspect the city has little or no interest in condemning the property and buying it since they likely view it as a huge cash cow for sales tax collection.  As a bonus, it’s at the intersection of two heavily traveled highways so that hopefully means transient sales tax making it’s way here from out of state and other communities.  Trail users probably need to simply get used to the idea this is going to happen.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 21, 2014, 05:09:05 pm
Hyperbole is not an argument.  Turkey Mountain is a park in the middle of a city.  Preserving it and denying all development on the adjacent privately owned land are not one and the same.  Unless someone buys this land to preserve it (and it looks like that is too late), the land adjacent to Turkey Mountain is going to be developed.  The only questions are when and for what use. 

Simon is not in the business of "growth for growth's sake."  Simon sees an unmet need and believes it can make money by investing in Tulsa and building something Tulsa doesn't have.  Simon could have elected to pave over a corn field in Bixby or Glenpool and added to the suburban sprawl.  Instead, it chose a vacant parcel of land fronting a highway in a fast growing retail area.  This is a far better use of existing infrastructure even with the needed improvements it will bring.  And it helps preserve and enhance Tulsa's sales tax base.  I see this as a great win for Tulsa and welcome it.



I'm not really arguing about the use of this land or Turkey mountain for a commercial venture - what I am doing is casting aspersions on Simon for their sorry past performance in the area.  The method milks the property hard, with no re-investment, then after it has run into the ground, walk away from it.  (Eastland).  Woodland is just another bland, inane mess that is being milked as hard as possible.  Gets an occasion coat of paint, but there is an ebb and flow to tenancy - and the level of newer tenants seems to be an ongoing downward trend.  Wouldn't surprise me to see it sold in the next few years as they move on to the next big thing. 

Which brings us to this site.  Outlet malls....yeah, that worked well here in this area (non-Simon).  But Battle Creek got a church out of it!!  Obviously, I am skeptical of the premise.




Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 21, 2014, 05:23:05 pm
Apparently the Westside Y was investigating a purchase of this a few years back (April 2008):

Quote
YMCA may buy westside land

The YMCA is in talks to buy a portion of the 61 acres directly south of its Westside Day Camp at the intersection of U.S. 75 and Interstate 44. The Planning Commission has twice delayed a public hearing on a developer's proposed mixed-use project for the site, and an attorney for the property owners said he will request another continuance Wednesday. "We're making progress in resolving the YMCA's issues," attorney Roy Johnsen said. Laura Hailey-Butler, vice president of mission advancement for the YMCA, said the organization is working to "keep that area a natural environment where it very much is like an urban escape" as it has been for years.

The YMCA also hopes someday to have access to the camp from U.S. 75 and 61st Street, Hailey-Butler said. In addition to serving as the day camp's longtime home, the YMCA's 28-acre property -- consisting of a pond, trails and wooded terrain -- is used for school programs and cor porate team-building activities, she said. Over the years, the property surrounding the day camp, including Turkey Mountain, has been criss-crossed with trails worn by mountain bikers, hikers and equestrians. The western boundary of the Turkey Mountain Wilderness Area is about a quarter-mile east of the development site.

River Parks Authority Executive Director Matt Meyer said, "We have a lot of customers or trail users who use Turkey Mountain who spill onto the private property" proposed for development. Meyer said the authority has taken no official position on the proposed development. The site is owned by Beeline Sixty One Properties LLC. The owners are asking the Planning Commission to recommend rezoning 50 of the 61 acres from agriculture to corridor zoning. The remaining 11 acres, at the southern tip of the property, are zoned commercial and office light.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/archives/ymca-may-buy-westside-land/article_f2e7b869-6564-5e79-b298-90f505d335a5.html


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on August 21, 2014, 09:09:50 pm
That puts the property under the ownership of a man with a $350,000 house. So, not Kaiser.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cynical on August 21, 2014, 10:11:51 pm
There is no adverse possession case here. You are correct that the lack of a qualifying claimant makes a claim of adverse possession impossible to prove. To establish adverse possession the claimant's possession has to be "actual, open, notorious, exclusive, hostile, and continuous." Merely using someone else's property once in a while in a way that isn't inconsistent with their ownership of that property doesn't cut it. Nor can multiple people using the trails but not acting in concert (by actual mutual agreement) satisfy the "exclusive" standard. Failing to stop the owners from their own use of the property defeats the "hostility" element. A claim of adverse possession is a very tough case to make and fairly easy to defend.

Even an easement by prescription, though it involves something less than fee simple title, uses almost identical standards (actual, open, notorious, hostile, visible, continuous, exclusive, with a claim of ownership). Permissive use of someone else's land doesn't create the right to continue to use it, even if the use persists for decades. The burden of proof is especially high where the property being used was not enclosed. The difficulty is compounded when so many riders were using the trails that no individual claimant or group of claimants could claim exclusivity.

There may be another less combative approach available that would preserve the property's wildness without infringing on the legal rights of the owner. The YMCA's desire to purchase at least some of the property is a step in the right direction. The entire area on both sides of Hwy 75 and extending west along 61st St. is covered with wild habitat. The Nature Conservancy has paid for voluntary conservation easements at times. Perhaps someone could step up and offer the owner money to not develop the property for some period of time.

I stand corrected on the property owner.  That was asserted by another poster earlier in this thread.  My only point in whether or not a seller needed the money or not was simply stating if Kaiser was, in fact, the property owner, a deal falling through would not break him.

One theme which keeps getting brought up on an FB page a lot of trail users from Turkey use.  Someone has suggested adverse possession could apply here since people have been trespassing on the property for many years.  I recall the YMCA using trails back in this area as far back as 1976 or ’77 when I went to day camp there.  I honestly don’t think there’s a real case for that and who would have standing as a legal entity to claim adverse possession?

I suspect the city has little or no interest in condemning the property and buying it since they likely view it as a huge cash cow for sales tax collection.  As a bonus, it’s at the intersection of two heavily traveled highways so that hopefully means transient sales tax making it’s way here from out of state and other communities.  Trail users probably need to simply get used to the idea this is going to happen.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 21, 2014, 11:08:58 pm
There is no adverse possession case here. You are correct that the lack of a qualifying claimant makes a claim of adverse possession impossible to prove. To establish adverse possession the claimant's possession has to be "actual, open, notorious, exclusive, hostile, and continuous." Merely using someone else's property once in a while in a way that isn't inconsistent with their ownership of that property doesn't cut it. Nor can multiple people using the trails but not acting in concert (by actual mutual agreement) satisfy the "exclusive" standard. Failing to stop the owners from their own use of the property defeats the "hostility" element. A claim of adverse possession is a very tough case to make and fairly easy to defend.

Even an easement by prescription, though it involves something less than fee simple title, uses almost identical standards (actual, open, notorious, hostile, visible, continuous, exclusive, with a claim of ownership). Permissive use of someone else's land doesn't create the right to continue to use it, even if the use persists for decades. The burden of proof is especially high where the property being used was not enclosed. The difficulty is compounded when so many riders were using the trails that no individual claimant or group of claimants could claim exclusivity.

There may be another less combative approach available that would preserve the property's wildness without infringing on the legal rights of the owner. The YMCA's desire to purchase at least some of the property is a step in the right direction. The entire area on both sides of Hwy 75 and extending west along 61st St. is covered with wild habitat. The Nature Conservancy has paid for voluntary conservation easements at times. Perhaps someone could step up and offer the owner money to not develop the property for some period of time.


Thank you for the clarification and please forgive some of my rantings on this from the perspective of someone who uses the area quite often and appreciates it as a quality of life asset which is unique to Tulsa.  The idealist in me says: “preserve this at all cost!”  The realist says: “It’s private property and they can do with it what they want.”  The battered mountain biker in me says: “Those are some of the most brutal trails on the system.  Good riddance!” 

It would be useful to know how much land, if any, Mr. Kaiser or one of his investments or his family trust owns in the vicinity and if they might be willing to step in and quash this. 

As it is, this land netted a whopping $23 in property taxes last year according to the assessor’s web site.  It’s not like the owner has a lot of overhead to force his/her hand to sell.  If he could be persuaded by an annual use fee or some such structure to not develop for a period of time, that might well prove to be a win/win solution.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Stanley1 on August 22, 2014, 08:13:51 am
Woodland is just another bland, inane mess that is being milked as hard as possible.  Gets an occasion coat of paint, but there is an ebb and flow to tenancy - and the level of newer tenants seems to be an ongoing downward trend.  Wouldn't surprise me to see it sold in the next few years as they move on to the next big thing. 


Didn't they just redo the entire food court area, and some of the other "resting" areas throughout the mall?

Aren't they about to redo another section to add room Texas de Brazil?

And while there may be some turnover in the stores there, I'd say it's pretty limited, and they almost always seem to be at full occupancy.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Hoss on August 22, 2014, 08:16:55 am
Didn't they just redo the entire food court area, and some of the other "resting" areas throughout the mall?

Aren't they about to redo another section to add room Texas de Brazil?

And while there may be some turnover in the stores there, I'd say it's pretty limited, and they almost always seem to be at full occupancy.

Problem is that area is now suffering from critical mass.  So many people despise the trek out on 71st (myself included) that they will avoid at all costs.

Why not when a lot of your purchasing can now be done online?  Obviously not food, but most people I know don't go to the malls for the food court (at least those older than 18).


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Stanley1 on August 22, 2014, 08:31:45 am
Problem is that area is now suffering from critical mass.  So many people despise the trek out on 71st (myself included) that they will avoid at all costs.

Why not when a lot of your purchasing can now be done online?  Obviously not food, but most people I know don't go to the malls for the food court (at least those older than 18).

Seems to stay pretty busy.  It feeds the people that work there during the day.  It feeds nearby businesses.  And I disagree, a lot of adults eat there if they end up shopping there over lunch or dinner hours.  Not all, obviously, but enough.

But that wasn't really the point I was trying to make.  The post I responded to was talking about prettying the place up.  I actually think they've done a lot of that in recent years.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 22, 2014, 08:34:11 am
The only reason I ever venture out to 71st & Hell is the home-brew store.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Hoss on August 22, 2014, 08:41:14 am
Seems to stay pretty busy.  It feeds the people that work there during the day.  It feeds nearby businesses.  And I disagree, a lot of adults eat there if they end up shopping there over lunch or dinner hours.  Not all, obviously, but enough.

But that wasn't really the point I was trying to make.  The post I responded to was talking about prettying the place up.  I actually think they've done a lot of that in recent years.



Please note that I said 'most people I know'.  Your mileage may vary.

Also, the big WalMart out there gives the impression that 71st and Memorial has become a seedy area, because it's nearly as bad as the WM on the hill.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on August 22, 2014, 08:42:29 am
Didn't they just redo the entire food court area, and some of the other "resting" areas throughout the mall?

Aren't they about to redo another section to add room Texas de Brazil?

And while there may be some turnover in the stores there, I'd say it's pretty limited, and they almost always seem to be at full occupancy.

Yes, the Woodland Hills redo was pretty massive, especially in the food court area. The new disco light entrances are kinda neat too.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 22, 2014, 11:03:21 am
Last time I was there was several months ago - still lots of construction going on.  Will go take a look-see this weekend if I can.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: DTowner on August 22, 2014, 11:18:17 am
I have friends who used to work for Simon (not Woodland Hills) and they always told me Woodland was one of its top performing properties.  I don't think it is fair to judge Simon by its short-term ownership of Eastland as that mall was doomed the day they broke ground.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Dspike on August 22, 2014, 11:22:25 am
Not sure if someone already linked, but here is the county assessor website for the property at issue: http://www.assessor.tulsacounty.org/assessor-property.php?account=R99235923548450&return=close

As a previous poster noted in the YWCA article, the owner is (was?) BEELINE SIXTY ONE PROPERTIES LLC.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on August 22, 2014, 12:03:59 pm
Not sure if someone already linked, but here is the county assessor website for the property at issue: http://www.assessor.tulsacounty.org/assessor-property.php?account=R99235923548450&return=close

As a previous poster noted in the YWCA article, the owner is (was?) BEELINE SIXTY ONE PROPERTIES LLC.

Ok, this is really funny.

So I search Beeline 61, the company that owns the land and the address listed for the company is a private home in south Tulsa. I did a property search on the address and it's my kid's pediatrician's house.




Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 22, 2014, 12:46:37 pm
Ok, this is really funny.

So I search Beeline 61, the company that owns the land and the address listed for the company is a private home in south Tulsa. I did a property search on the address and it's my kid's pediatrician's house.




The other address for the service agent is literally right around the block from my mother’s house in Holiday Hills.  Pretty incredible they only pay $23 a year in taxes on this parcel.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on August 22, 2014, 01:39:00 pm
The other address for the service agent is literally right around the block from my mother’s house in Holiday Hills.  Pretty incredible they only pay $23 a year in taxes on this parcel.

I think the good doctor is about to pay a whole lot more than $23 in taxes on this transaction.

This is not Kaiser owned or controlled land.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 22, 2014, 02:47:03 pm
I think the good doctor is about to pay a whole lot more than $23 in taxes on this transaction.

This is not Kaiser owned or controlled land.

We already established that.  Still trying to verify if Kaiser owns any of the land in the vicinity.  Checking GBK, Kaiser, and Kaiser Francis via the assessors web site, I get nothing on Turkey Mountain though Kaiser does have quite a bit of real estate around town through his various business interests and trusts.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sauerkraut on August 23, 2014, 09:04:13 am
Useually outlet malls are for tourists or people who travel  up & down highway 75. They are not normally geared for local residents.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on August 23, 2014, 09:59:43 am
Useually outlet malls are for tourists or people who travel  up & down highway 75. They are not normally geared for local residents.

You really are clueless. Outlet malls aren't just tourist traps. The two in the Phoenix area draw as many locals as they do travelers.

http://www.simon.com/mall/arizona-mills (http://www.simon.com/mall/arizona-mills)

http://www.outletsanthem.com/ (http://www.outletsanthem.com/)

I realize that Wally World is high end shopping for you, but geeeez, get your head out of the sand, and if you love DFW so much, move there.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on August 23, 2014, 12:23:49 pm
We already established that.  Still trying to verify if Kaiser owns any of the land in the vicinity.  Checking GBK, Kaiser, and Kaiser Francis via the assessors web site, I get nothing on Turkey Mountain though Kaiser does have quite a bit of real estate around town through his various business interests and trusts.

There are 6 privately-owned parcels in the area to track down.
http://www.riverparks.org/wp-content/uploads/Turkey-Mountain-Area-Ownership.pdf

I would assume that if someone was trying to add to the park, or create a buffer, then outlet mall property would be lower on the list that several of the other parcels.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 23, 2014, 03:06:23 pm
This map is from a friend who helped get provisions inserted into the zoning change from Ag to light office/mixed use several years ago on the parcel in question.  That required a green buffer area.  He thinks Kaiser or GKFF may have purchased the Claudia Dyer properties after this was produced.  He’s also of the understanding that the Ferris Trust property has a provision that it must remain green space.

(https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t1.0-9/10502287_10204708180889572_3877374426275316456_n.jpg)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on August 24, 2014, 02:16:52 pm
I've seen enough. When does the bulldozing of trails start? Ducking, donning Kevlar.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sauerkraut on August 26, 2014, 11:58:53 am
Yeah, I guess the mountain bikers will lose some trails- Glad I'm not a mountain biker.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 26, 2014, 01:31:28 pm
Yeah, I guess the mountain bikers will lose some trails- Glad I'm not a mountain biker.

It’s also horseback riders, trail runners, and hikers.  More disturbing is this is land the Westside Y has used for horseback riding and nature hikes for about 90 years.  Speaking to one of the Y directors at the district 2 council meeting last night, they are really disappointed and at a loss.  They have tried to buy it twice but could not raise the $3 mil the owners wanted at the time.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: In_Tulsa on August 26, 2014, 03:16:21 pm
Looks like they have done it now. I heard that the owners of the property are now in the process of putting up no trespassing signs all along their property. They are also looking to hire off-duty police officers to enforce. We will see what happens.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on August 26, 2014, 03:20:05 pm
It’s also horseback riders, trail runners, and hikers.  More disturbing is this is land the Westside Y has used for horseback riding and nature hikes for about 90 years.  Speaking to one of the Y directors at the district 2 council meeting last night, they are really disappointed and at a loss.  They have tried to buy it twice but could not raise the $3 mil the owners wanted at the time.

There is the gist. Just like the area behind chandler park used for off-roading, if you aren't willing or capable to come up with the cash for the land, you have to realize that your usage of the land is only temporary.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 26, 2014, 04:31:05 pm
Looks like they have done it now. I heard that the owners of the property are now in the process of putting up no trespassing signs all along their property. They are also looking to hire off-duty police officers to enforce. We will see what happens.


Side note - it's interesting how they are now compelled to put up signs to stop something that was illegal in the first place - without notification!  Amazing the rationalizations that abound that just because people have been doing something, and there is even a path due to the magnitude of the illegal activity, a sign is still necessary!



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 26, 2014, 09:15:47 pm
Looks like they have done it now. I heard that the owners of the property are now in the process of putting up no trespassing signs all along their property. They are also looking to hire off-duty police officers to enforce. We will see what happens.

Have you heard this or seen it?  We were up there last night at the south end of the property near the for sale sign and there were none.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on August 26, 2014, 11:37:16 pm
Have you heard this or seen it?  We were up there last night at the south end of the property near the for sale sign and there were none.

You weren't trespassing, were you?  :D 

Watching this play out has been interesting to say the least. There is a potential business development of private property with huge financial implications for this region, and persons without any property ownership injecting themselves into the process. To me this is not like home owners having to deal with businesses moving in, like what happened to you know who and 101st and Memorial. This is self-interested groups without any financial stake vs. private property rights. The "x" factor being some of these self-interested sorts wanting government to do something about it.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: TeeDub on August 27, 2014, 08:56:36 am
There is a potential business development of private property with huge financial implications for this region, and persons without any property ownership injecting themselves into the process.

It's just the ever-present NIMBY'ers.   People complained about the Target development in BA, they complained about the Tulsa Hills (initially) they complained about the Macy's distribution center.   It doesn't matter, it is just people's nature to whine and grumble about change.   

I am still trying to figure out why they haven't gotten together and bought the land as a trust or something...   Probably because they like using other people's stuff for free and are too cheap to put their money where their mouth is.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Townsend on August 27, 2014, 09:39:49 am
they complained about the Tulsa Hills (initially)


Still complaining it wasn't designed to be walkable.  Keep some hills, make it pretty.

I go to Sam's and leave.  Once Costco's in, I'll prob stop Sam's as well.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 27, 2014, 09:43:21 am
It's just the ever-present NIMBY'ers.   People complained about the Target development in BA, they complained about the Tulsa Hills (initially) they complained about the Macy's distribution center.   It doesn't matter, it is just people's nature to whine and grumble about change.  

I am still trying to figure out why they haven't gotten together and bought the land as a trust or something...   Probably because they like using other people's stuff for free and are too cheap to put their money where their mouth is.



Uh no.  Your characterization really makes me bristle.  This is actually something which is trying to be pulled together as we speak.  Trying to rope together enough people to raise $3+ million doesn’t happen over night.  One of the directors of the Tulsa area YMCA explained to me they tried to buy it in 2008 and again in 2010.  They simply could not raise the funds.  As far as your assumption trail users are freeloaders, most trail users I’ve spoken with would have absolutely no problem with a use fee on this land, or coming up with a long-term solution which would generate income for the property owners.  A number of rocks are being turned over right now looking for a way to head this off and buy the property.  This deal with Simon is nowhere near completed.  I suspect some sort of contract has been signed, but a developer like Simon won’t close the deal until they know they have every zoning hurdle cleared.  They are nowhere near clearing any hurdles as of yet.

I understand the whole private property issue and the rights of the property owner.  Certainly, if it gets killed in zoning or council hearings, the owners can erect a fence out of spite and seal off the property from further use.  That’s their prerogative.  The reason this is even privately-owned land seems to be complete ignorance of the property history, near as I can tell.  I honestly don’t understand why the Y never attempted to buy this before the current partnership bought this, somewhere around 2000.  They could have picked it up much cheaper.

Now here’s why this is the wrong place for this outlet mall, Tee Dub and Guido:

-Turkey Mountain is one of the last pristine wilderness areas in the Tulsa area.  It is a complex eco-system and rare recreational area to have within a city’s limits.  Imagine erecting an outlet mall in New York’s Central Park.  This has been dubbed "Tulsa’s Central Park”.

-The site will require a massive infrastructure overhaul.  Who foots the bill for the millions of dollars this will require to support the private developers for the replacement of the 61st street bridge and overhauling the whole US 75 61st St. interchange?  That’s right, the tax payer.  Of course, anything else built to the south or SW of this site would still require a massive infrastructure upgrade.  Sooo, Guido, government gets involved either way.  It’s much costlier to you, the taxpayer, if this project goes through in infrastructure costs and other greenmail.

-This could create issues for the Mooser Creek watershed which has been carefully preserved.  The YMCA has expressed concerns that development “uphill” from the Y could have a negative impact on storm water run-off onto their property.

-Elwood north from 71st to it’s merge with 61st St. is one of the more dangerous stretches of road in Tulsa county.  Additional traffic on this road would necessarily require a very expensive overhaul of this road.  There is also a neighborhood on the west side of Elwood which would be impacted by higher traffic count on Elwood.  They already say they are frustrated with all the traffic at Turkey Mountain on the weekends.

-There are sufficient parcels of privately-owned land off the SW corner of this interchange as well as directly south of the proposed site.  There is also a parcel on the NW corner of 71st & Elwood.  This stretch of road has already been improved to handle the additional traffic Tulsa Hills created.

-As to the trespassing issue: The INCOG maps and RPA maps of the Turkey Mountain Wilderness have shown the area inclusive of this parcel as being within the boundaries of the “park”.  Most users, until now, had assumed this was city or county-owned property, or owned by the YMCA because of this.  When I went to the day camp at the Y in the 1970’s, we rode horses and hiked through this property, my personal assumption always being this was Y or public property.  To my knowledge no one has ever discouraged use of this land.  As another aside, trail users have maintained and regularly hauled out trailer loads of illegally dumped trash from this parcel as well as the ones adjacent to it.  My point to this is trail users have tried to be good stewards of the land, regardless of ownership and have not been ungrateful freeloaders.

-I further understand that remaining private properties to the east of this plot are held in trust with provisions for them to remain green space.  If the mall happens here, it’s not the end of the world, but it would be a shame to take out 60 acres of pristine wilderness when there’s property in the immediate vicinity more suitable for development.  

I realize west Tulsa can use the up-tick in commerce. I appreciate the county and city could benefit from increasing the sales tax base as developments like this attract transient sales tax from all over the country and aren’t simply cannibalizing sales tax dollars from other collection points in the city.

To people who have never hiked, biked, or ridden a horse on this land, I can understand why preservation of this as an urban wilderness seems like complete folly.  As a user of this land on and off for 40 years, I have a different view of the real “value” of this property in being maintained as wilderness and I’m not afraid to contribute in any way possible to keep it that way.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 27, 2014, 10:13:26 am
Here’s some of those freeloaders with the pile of debris and trash removed from the subject land in 2010:

(https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10576995_10204743703577617_5961939056379567462_n.jpg?oh=0fccb9d3822a41eb4c8ea34f1bc89814&oe=547FBD71)

And more freeloaders:

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10526018_765255966850871_5239096624879418079_n.jpg?oh=a205f3a62318049863122e861926cf3a&oe=545CC578&__gda__=1417580736_355bb31bf70a2351e86b829813e9ac51)


And before anyone jumps to the conclusion I believe this justifies the owners not selling the land for mall development, nothing could be further from the truth.  I’m simply pointing out people who have used this land for recreational purposes have tried to be good stewards and not careless trespassers.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cynical on August 27, 2014, 10:44:43 am
Conan, I have a couple of minor quibbles with your argument.

This specific parcel can not be described as "pristine wilderness." I drive past this property 2-4 times most days. At least two years ago and possibly earlier, the owner cleared brush and most of the smaller trees from the property, changing its nature from the typical dense underbrush/crosstimbers forest that you see elsewhere in the area to open or moderately treed land. The underbrush is beginning to recover, but in no sense is it even close to pristine. This was obvious to everyone who even drove by the property. If portions of the property burdened by the trail(s) weren't affected, they probably won't be affected by the mall project any more than the expansion of the Turkey Mountain parking lot affected them. Compared to the Tulsa Hills development, this is pretty small.

The other issue is whether the online map (that has since been withdrawn) could be relied on as the sole evidence of whether this property was in public ownership. For Sale signs have been posted on the west and south boundaries of the property for years. The sign on the west boundary is quite obvious from Highway 75. I could see and read the sign on the south boundary from 61st Street where you turn to go north on Hwy 75. For Sale signs are inconsistent with public ownership.

I am curious about why you believe private ownership is based on "complete ignorance of the property history." The property has been in private ownership since statehood, when the Creek Nation lands were allotted to individual members of the tribe. When in the post-statehood history of the property has any government entity even claimed ownership?

Oklahoma law is hostile toward squatters rights. The fact that a bunch of people have for years crossed this property during their recreational pursuits is beside the point. When has anyone ever claimed ownership and possession to the exclusion of the record owners?

This is a simple issue being made more complicated by the unrealistic expectation of those who claim the right to deny the owners the right to use the land for economically useful purposes. If the Y wanted the land, they could purchase it, provided it met the owners' price. If the city wants it, it can purchase it or take the property through eminent domain. To simply zone it into oblivion is unconstitutional. If the mountain bikers and hikers want the land, they need to pressure the city to buy it, not to violate the owner's right to use the property by prohibiting economic use.

Uh no.  Your characterization really makes me bristle.  This is actually something which is trying to be pulled together as we speak.  Trying to rope together enough people to raise $3+ million doesn’t happen over night.  One of the directors of the Tulsa area YMCA explained to me they tried to buy it in 2008 and again in 2010.  They simply could not raise the funds.  As far as your assumption trail users are freeloaders, most trail users I’ve spoken with would have absolutely no problem with a use fee on this land, or coming up with a long-term solution which would generate income for the property owners.  A number of rocks are being turned over right now looking for a way to head this off and buy the property.  This deal with Simon is nowhere near completed.  I suspect some sort of contract has been signed, but a developer like Simon won’t close the deal until they know they have every zoning hurdle cleared.  They are nowhere near clearing any hurdles as of yet.

I understand the whole private property issue and the rights of the property owner.  Certainly, if it gets killed in zoning or council hearings, the owners can erect a fence out of spite and seal off the property from further use.  That’s their prerogative.  The reason this is even privately-owned land seems to be complete ignorance of the property history, near as I can tell.  I honestly don’t understand why the Y never attempted to buy this before the current partnership bought this, somewhere around 2000.  They could have picked it up much cheaper.

Now here’s why this is the wrong place for this outlet mall, Tee Dub and Guido:

-Turkey Mountain is one of the last pristine wilderness areas in the Tulsa area.  It is a complex eco-system and rare recreational area to have within a city’s limits.  Imagine erecting an outlet mall in New York’s Central Park.  This has been dubbed "Tulsa’s Central Park”.

-The site will require a massive infrastructure overhaul.  Who foots the bill for the millions of dollars this will require to support the private developers for the replacement of the 61st street bridge and overhauling the whole US 75 61st St. interchange?  That’s right, the tax payer.  Of course, anything else built to the south or SW of this site would still require a massive infrastructure upgrade.  Sooo, Guido, government gets involved either way.  It’s much costlier to you, the taxpayer, if this project goes through in infrastructure costs and other greenmail.

-This could create issues for the Mooser Creek watershed which has been carefully preserved.  The YMCA has expressed concerns that development “uphill” from the Y could have a negative impact on storm water run-off onto their property.

-Elwood north from 71st to it’s merge with 61st St. is one of the more dangerous stretches of road in Tulsa county.  Additional traffic on this road would necessarily require a very expensive overhaul of this road.  There is also a neighborhood on the west side of Elwood which would be impacted by higher traffic count on Elwood.  They already say they are frustrated with all the traffic at Turkey Mountain on the weekends.

-There are sufficient parcels of privately-owned land off the SW corner of this interchange as well as directly south of the proposed site.  There is also a parcel on the NW corner of 71st & Elwood.  This stretch of road has already been improved to handle the additional traffic Tulsa Hills created.

-As to the trespassing issue: The INCOG maps and RPA maps of the Turkey Mountain Wilderness have shown the area inclusive of this parcel as being within the boundaries of the “park”.  Most users, until now, had assumed this was city or county-owned property, or owned by the YMCA because of this.  When I went to the day camp at the Y in the 1970’s, we rode horses and hiked through this property, my personal assumption always being this was Y or public property.  To my knowledge no one has ever discouraged use of this land.  As another aside, trail users have maintained and regularly hauled out trailer loads of illegally dumped trash from this parcel as well as the ones adjacent to it.  My point to this is trail users have tried to be good stewards of the land, regardless of ownership and have not been ungrateful freeloaders.

-I further understand that remaining private properties to the east of this plot are held in trust with provisions for them to remain green space.  If the mall happens here, it’s not the end of the world, but it would be a shame to take out 60 acres of pristine wilderness when there’s property in the immediate vicinity more suitable for development.  

I realize west Tulsa can use the up-tick in commerce. I appreciate the county and city could benefit from increasing the sales tax base as developments like this attract transient sales tax from all over the country and aren’t simply cannibalizing sales tax dollars from other collection points in the city.

To people who have never hiked, biked, or ridden a horse on this land, I can understand why preservation of this as an urban wilderness seems like complete folly.  As a user of this land on and off for 40 years, I have a different view of the real “value” of this property in being maintained as wilderness and I’m not afraid to contribute in any way possible to keep it that way.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 27, 2014, 11:22:24 am
Conan, I have a couple of minor quibbles with your argument.

This specific parcel can not be described as "pristine wilderness." I drive past this property 2-4 times most days. At least two years ago and possibly earlier, the owner cleared brush and most of the smaller trees from the property, changing its nature from the typical dense underbrush/crosstimbers forest that you see elsewhere in the area to open or moderately treed land. The underbrush is beginning to recover, but in no sense is it even close to pristine. This was obvious to everyone who even drove by the property. If portions of the property burdened by the trail(s) weren't affected, they probably won't be affected by the mall project any more than the expansion of the Turkey Mountain parking lot affected them. Compared to the Tulsa Hills development, this is pretty small.



This was several acres of land nearest the road which was cleared to make it more presentable to prospective buyers.  It’s still dense forest perhaps an acre or two in.  It was a fraction of the overall property which was cleared.  I’m estimating less than 10% which would be six acres or less.


The other issue is whether the online map (that has since been withdrawn) could be relied on as the sole evidence of whether this property was in public ownership. For Sale signs have been posted on the west and south boundaries of the property for years. The sign on the west boundary is quite obvious from Highway 75. I could see and read the sign on the south boundary from 61st Street where you turn to go north on Hwy 75. For Sale signs are inconsistent with public ownership.


To the casual user of the property or someone looking on-line, it would be easy to make this mistake.  You would be surprised how many people I’ve talked to or seen posts from on social media who have no idea.  Quite a few people apparently assumed the city, county, or the Y was selling off the property, believe it or not.  I personally never looked into who owned it until the mall was proposed.  

I am aware that there was a core group of trail users who banded together to get the amusement park proposal shot down in 2012 (lower part of Turkey near the river).  As well, they sat at the table when this was re-zoned from Ag to commercial/light office and at least got the proviso written in there must be a green space buffer between any development and it’s interior surroundings.  


I am curious about why you believe private ownership is based on "complete ignorance of the property history." The property has been in private ownership since statehood, when the Creek Nation lands were allotted to individual members of the tribe. When in the post-statehood history of the property has any government entity even claimed ownership?

Oklahoma law is hostile toward squatters rights. The fact that a bunch of people have for years crossed this property during their recreational pursuits is beside the point. When has anyone ever claimed ownership and possession to the exclusion of the record owners?


Sorry, should have completed my thought better, what I mean to say was: “ The reason (people do not realize) this is privately-owned land seems to be complete ignorance of the property history, near as I can tell.  I honestly don’t understand why the Y never attempted to buy this before the current partnership bought this, somewhere around 2000.  They could have picked it up much cheaper.”  I was trying to point out there’s good reason many people have assumed this was public park land or owned by the Y.

I’m quite well aware the whole area was platted in allotments, I believe dating back before statehood, I believe all to Creek Indians, IIRC.  I in no way believe there are squatters rights, as you and I have previously discussed.  I’ve also expressed the owners have the right to do as they see fit with the property, but I disagree with your assertion that ensuring it complies with logical zoning requirements, including supporting infrastructure is not unconstitutional.  That’s like saying if the city or my neighbors want to prevent me from knocking down my house and building a multi story office building on my lot is unconstitutional.


This is a simple issue being made more complicated by the unrealistic expectation of those who claim the right to deny the owners the right to use the land for economically useful purposes. If the Y wanted the land, they could purchase it, provided it met the owners' price. If the city wants it, it can purchase it or take the property through eminent domain. To simply zone it into oblivion is unconstitutional. If the mountain bikers and hikers want the land, they need to pressure the city to buy it, not to violate the owner's right to use the property by prohibiting economic use.


How is eminent domain any less unconstitutional than upholding zoning codes or refusing further change of them?

I spoke to a developer the other night at the D-2 meeting (he’s also a regular trail user as well as his daughter and son-in-law) he was looking at developing it as a retirement village which would retain much of the natural beauty of the parcel several years ago.  I do believe that is what the zoning change from AG to commercial and light office originally was going to allow with the green buffer zone.  

I believe there is a strong reaction to the outlet mall as plopping down big slab sided concrete boxes is a shock to the senses.  Certainly, I’ve heard lots of hyperbole, half truths, and outright lies about this over the last week.  Much of it from well-meaning people who simply want to see this land left alone for the ages.

I don’t argue the owner’s property rights when they conform to proper zoning and codes.  I also don’t dispute the rights of the community to use zoning codes to restrict what can and cannot be developed in keeping with it’s surroundings.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cynical on August 27, 2014, 12:50:31 pm
Eminent domain involves the payment of just compensation, so it is a legal balance between the traditional sovereign power to take the property and the constitution's prohibition against depriving someone of life, liberty, or property without due process. I won't bore everyone with my treatise on the different nomenclature Oklahoma law and federal law use to deal with eminent domain, but in both cases, due process requires the payment of just compensation.

Use of land use planning methods to force an owner to leave his or her property as "pristine wilderness" does not involve the payment of just compensation unless the owner prevails in an inverse condemnation action. These are messy.

BTW, I just drove past the property. There are no visible "no trespassing" signs, though there is a no dumping sign close by. I wonder where that report came from.



This was several acres of land nearest the road which was cleared to make it more presentable to prospective buyers.  It’s still dense forest perhaps an acre or two in.  It was a fraction of the overall property which was cleared.  I’m estimating less than 10% which would be six acres or less.

To the casual user of the property or someone looking on-line, it would be easy to make this mistake.  You would be surprised how many people I’ve talked to or seen posts from on social media who have no idea.  Quite a few people apparently assumed the city, county, or the Y was selling off the property, believe it or not.  I personally never looked into who owned it until the mall was proposed. 

I am aware that there was a core group of trail users who banded together to get the amusement park proposal shot down in 2012 (lower part of Turkey near the river).  As well, they sat at the table when this was re-zoned from Ag to commercial/light office and at least got the proviso written in there must be a green space buffer between any development and it’s interior surroundings. 

Sorry, should have completed my thought better, what I mean to say was: “ The reason (people do not realize) this is privately-owned land seems to be complete ignorance of the property history, near as I can tell.  I honestly don’t understand why the Y never attempted to buy this before the current partnership bought this, somewhere around 2000.  They could have picked it up much cheaper.”  I was trying to point out there’s good reason many people have assumed this was public park land or owned by the Y.

I’m quite well aware the whole area was platted in allotments, I believe dating back before statehood, I believe all to Creek Indians, IIRC.  I in no way believe there are squatters rights, as you and I have previously discussed.  I’ve also expressed the owners have the right to do as they see fit with the property, but I disagree with your assertion that ensuring it complies with logical zoning requirements, including supporting infrastructure is not unconstitutional.  That’s like saying if the city or my neighbors want to prevent me from knocking down my house and building a multi story office building on my lot is unconstitutional.

How is eminent domain any less unconstitutional than upholding zoning codes or refusing further change of them?

I spoke to a developer the other night at the D-2 meeting (he’s also a regular trail user as well as his daughter and son-in-law) he was looking at developing it as a retirement village which would retain much of the natural beauty of the parcel several years ago.  I do believe that is what the zoning change from AG to commercial and light office originally was going to allow with the green buffer zone. 

I believe there is a strong reaction to the outlet mall as plopping down big slab sided concrete boxes is a shock to the senses.  Certainly, I’ve heard lots of hyperbole, half truths, and outright lies about this over the last week.  Much of it from well-meaning people who simply want to see this land left alone for the ages.

I don’t argue the owner’s property rights when they conform to proper zoning and codes.  I also don’t dispute the rights of the community to use zoning codes to restrict what can and cannot be developed in keeping with it’s surroundings.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 27, 2014, 01:06:26 pm
Eminent domain involves the payment of just compensation, so it is a legal balance between the traditional sovereign power to take the property and the constitution's prohibition against depriving someone of life, liberty, or property without due process. I won't bore everyone with my treatise on the different nomenclature Oklahoma law and federal law use to deal with eminent domain, but in both cases, due process requires the payment of just compensation.

Use of land use planning methods to force an owner to leave his or her property as "pristine wilderness" does not involve the payment of just compensation unless the owner prevails in an inverse condemnation action. These are messy.

BTW, I just drove past the property. There are no visible "no trespassing" signs, though there is a no dumping sign close by. I wonder where that report came from.


No one I personally know of is saying the owner cannot or should not derive monetary benefit from developing the property per it’s current zoning or suggesting the property should be confiscated for the "greater good”.  My best case scenario is a friend of the community buys the property and either preserves it as wilderness or gives it to the city/RPA and Simon finds another plot in the area they can develop.  Again, I think the strip NW of 71st & Elwood makes far more sense than anywhere else, though residents of the neighborhood to the north of that land may disagree.

My biggest question is what is the net cost to the city and county in infrastructure improvements or a TIF to accommodate Simon Properties if they choose to build in the vicinity of this intersection rather than the 71st St. corridor, which has already been improved?  Aside from more service level wage jobs being created, what is the real net impact on the tax base when we shell out expensive infrastructure improvements or offer other greenmail to attract development?

I believe you said you live in the area.  How do you personally feel about the increased traffic and activity created by an outlet mall in the area (whether it’s this parcel or one of the other’s I identified)?

Certainly, everyone will learn to co-exist with this development should it happen.  I simply hope it won’t.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cynical on August 27, 2014, 03:01:58 pm
Personally I like the woods through there, but everything is a tradeoff. I think I'm more skeptical about outlet malls specifically than retail per se.

When Tulsa Hills went in with all of its traffic and the numerous traffic lights, getting through the area was made more difficult. I have made many trips to Lowe's, though. It's a fair trade for me. The wildlife that were displaced for the project might not agree.

No one I personally know of is saying the owner cannot or should not derive monetary benefit from developing the property per it’s current zoning or suggesting the property should be confiscated for the "greater good”.  My best case scenario is a friend of the community buys the property and either preserves it as wilderness or gives it to the city/RPA and Simon finds another plot in the area they can develop.  Again, I think the strip NW of 71st & Elwood makes far more sense than anywhere else, though residents of the neighborhood to the north of that land may disagree.

My biggest question is what is the net cost to the city and county in infrastructure improvements or a TIF to accommodate Simon Properties if they choose to build in the vicinity of this intersection rather than the 71st St. corridor, which has already been improved?  Aside from more service level wage jobs being created, what is the real net impact on the tax base when we shell out expensive infrastructure improvements or offer other greenmail to attract development?

I believe you said you live in the area.  How do you personally feel about the increased traffic and activity created by an outlet mall in the area (whether it’s this parcel or one of the other’s I identified)?

Certainly, everyone will learn to co-exist with this development should it happen.  I simply hope it won’t.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: saintnicster on August 27, 2014, 03:09:35 pm
Kaiser Foundation says it won't develop its Turkey Mountain property
http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/kaiser-foundation-says-it-won-t-develop-its-turkey-mountain/article_be7a5c58-6026-597d-b67c-33ff8e60fd67.html

Quote
The George Kaiser Family Foundation has no plans to develop the 139 acres of land it owns on Turkey Mountain, a foundation official said Wednesday.

In fact, maintaining the mountain's natural beauty was why the foundation purchased the land in the first place.

"We wanted to protect and preserve the Turkey Mountain Urban Wilderness," said Jeff Stava, chief operating officer of the Tulsa Community Foundation.

"As strong supporters to River Parks and our trail system, we want to continue to ensure it is protected and grown to serve our community and region."

Many hikers, mountain bikers and other users of Turkey Mountain's trail system have expressed concern that the the recent announcement of a planned outlet mall at 61st Street and U.S. 75 could lead to more development along the mountain, eliminating trails and spoiling its natural beauty.

But Stava said the foundation's property, east and north of the proposed mall site, would not be developed for commercial purposes.

"It would solely be used to develop with the city of Tulsa and River Parks land," he said.

Some Turkey Mountain advocates have urged the city's philanthropic community to purchase property on Turkey Mountain to ensure that it remains green.

Stava, who described the wilderness area as a "treasure," made no such promise Wednesday but noted that that is exactly what the George Kaiser Family Foundation has been doing.

"Over the past few years GKFF has been quietly purchasing property on Turkey Mountain adjacent to the city- and River Parks-owned properties to help secure this Urban Wilderness for all Tulsans to enjoy." he said.

The outlet mall is to be located on approximately 58 acres of private property east of U.S. 75 at 61st Street, just north of the Tulsa Hills shopping center,  Robert Alexander, senior vice president of leasing for Simon’s mall portfolio, said recently. The site has already been leased, although construction has yet to begin.

The design and size of the outlet mall hasn’t been finalized, Alexander said, although he expects it to be similar to Allen Premium Outlets in Allen, Texas, north of Dallas, only somewhat smaller.

Development of the mall will require zoning changes that would be subject to approval by the Tulsa Metropolitan Area Planning Commission and the City Council, according to Planning Commission staff.

As of Wednesday afternoon, Planning Commission staff had not received plans for the outlet mall.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 27, 2014, 05:37:26 pm
The mall will be just another cheesy little strip center that will be "all that" for a while, then increasingly vacant and decayed in just a few years.



Tony Roma's on 71st....






Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: BKDotCom on August 27, 2014, 05:55:27 pm
Kaiser Foundation says it won't develop its Turkey Mountain property
http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/kaiser-foundation-says-it-won-t-develop-its-turkey-mountain/article_be7a5c58-6026-597d-b67c-33ff8e60fd67.html


Has he reneged?
Article has been removed


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on August 27, 2014, 07:09:22 pm
Probably changed link/url



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on August 27, 2014, 07:39:04 pm
Who knew Conan was a closeted environmentalist and big government/regulatory lib.  :o  To be clear, I am not up for calling people freeloaders, particularly in this area/context since I want cyclists to have something other than our busy streets for their activity. But when folks start messing with private property rights, and want to use government to limit/prohibit those rights, then there is a huge problem with me.

And no, because there might be some business incentives the city gives to facilitate development--call it corporate welfare--that does provide an equal footing to an interest group (the environmentalists, er., cyclists  :P) as the property owners. 


Thanks to cynical for doing some objective legal analysis. Property law is NOT easy.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 27, 2014, 07:43:01 pm
Has he reneged?
Article has been removed

Channel six has a 2:30 segment on their site with Jeff Stava of the Community Foundation speaking up about it.  Turns out, what they don’t already own to the east of the proposed site, they are “partners”.

Further thoughts on the “lease” that Simon has signed seems nothing more than a way to tie up the property while they draft the concept drawings and hit the road to sign on tenants.  Sounds like the rival group wanting to put a mall in at I-44/244 in east Tulsa is competing for the same tenants.  They are the same developer who developed the outlet mall on I-40 near Council Road in OKC.  In other words, if that group can get the big draws like Nike, Coach, or whomever else.  The more I read of this, I seriously doubt Simon can attract 800,000 square feet of tenants, especially ones who they claim Tulsa would be their only Oklahoma location.  This is not simple on/off access parallel to the major interstate like the outlet malls in so many other areas.

I have my doubts this will really happen.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 27, 2014, 08:47:19 pm
Who knew Conan was a closeted environmentalist and big government/regulatory lib.  :o  To be clear, I am not up for calling people freeloaders, particularly in this area/context since I want cyclists to have something other than our busy streets for their activity. But when folks start messing with private property rights, and want to use government to limit/prohibit those rights, then there is a huge problem with me.

And no, because there might be some business incentives the city gives to facilitate development--call it corporate welfare--that does provide an equal footing to an interest group (the environmentalists, er., cyclists  :P) as the property owners.  


Thanks to cynical for doing some objective legal analysis. Property law is NOT easy.

Who is messing with private property rights?  I’ve never once disputed the fact that the owners of the property have just as much right to sell the land as they do to fence it off so it can no longer be used for recreational purposes.  I’ve also said if this does happen, it’s not the end of the world.  It also  looks like the rest of the area is off limits to development and there are far more trails still available than I could possibly cover in one day.  I simply hate to tack a 60 acre turd of an outlet mall on a corner of this great wilderness area when there’s plenty of other property to be developed with better access.  I do also have concerns about creating a glut of retail space which could end up vacant.  I’m not against development, I’m for smart development.

To me, Simon’s sudden interest in Tulsa with promises of bringing in an outlet mall twice the size of most outlet malls seems like they are late to the party to try and beat out Horizon and Collet, the developers of the outlet mall in OKC.  Seems like professional jealousy to me.  

I’ve only made comments to the effect that the planned development cannot proceed with it’s existing zoning and the board of adjustment and City Council have final say on whether or not the zoning can be modified or not.

These are the same zoning codes which protect you from having some hill-jack who won the lottery last week move in next door to you and start an auto repair shop on his driveway or a motorcycle salvage or goat farm out of his back yard.  Would you be so ardent about private property rights when the roosters in your neighbor’s back yard start waking you at sun up?

I’ve merely commented to the effect that this is a rare, contiguous piece of wilderness we do not have anywhere else within the city of Tulsa.  There is plenty of other land in the immediate vicinity which could otherwise be developed utilizing existing infrastructure improvements.  If the board of adjustment or city council deems this is not an appropriate use for the land, and tells Simon: “Go fish” yes, I will be overjoyed.  If that makes me a liberal in your mind, I won’t lose sleep over it.

Let’s face it Guido, we all want government to serve some purpose or benefit for what we pay in taxes.  Whether it’s infrastructure, public safety, being the arbiter of proper or improper development, or protecting greenspace or wildlife habitat we all want something out of it.  We all pay into the system and have a right to expect something from it.  I really don’t like a lot of government regulation, but I’m guilty as hell of being a conservationist.  Wait...what’s that?  Conservationist and conservative have the same root.  Imagine that.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on August 27, 2014, 08:59:35 pm
Channel six has a 2:30 segment on their site with Jeff Stava of the Community Foundation speaking up about it.  Turns out, what they don’t already own to the east of the proposed site, they are “partners”.

Further thoughts on the “lease” that Simon has signed seems nothing more than a way to tie up the property while they draft the concept drawings and hit the road to sign on tenants.  Sounds like the rival group wanting to put a mall in at I-44/244 in east Tulsa is competing for the same tenants.  They are the same developer who developed the outlet mall on I-40 near Council Road in OKC.  In other words, if that group can get the big draws like Nike, Coach, or whomever else.  The more I read of this, I seriously doubt Simon can attract 800,000 square feet of tenants, especially ones who they claim Tulsa would be their only Oklahoma location.  This is not simple on/off access parallel to the major interstate like the outlet malls in so many other areas.

I have my doubts this will really happen.

I actually shop at outlet malls (please don't hit me) and can say that the OKC one is a bit sub-par. Also, those developers have been "working on an outlet mall in east tulsa" since before the OKC one was built.

It's going to be one mall or the other, not both, but I wouldn't count out the big dog of malls so early.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Red Arrow on August 27, 2014, 09:19:14 pm
I actually shop at outlet malls (please don't hit me) 

I remember the advertised prices at the outlet mall in Stroud as not being worth the drive there for how much I intended to purchase.  What is the real attraction for the outlet malls?



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on August 27, 2014, 10:08:38 pm
I remember the advertised prices at the outlet mall in Stroud as not being worth the drive there for how much I intended to purchase.  What is the real attraction for the outlet malls?



That's about the only place my wife and I go anymore to buy clothes/shoes for ourselves (Branson) They are a lot cheaper there. But satay away from the Polo outlet. No real deals there. 


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 27, 2014, 11:00:45 pm
That's about the only place my wife and I go anymore to buy clothes/shoes for ourselves (Branson) They are a lot cheaper there. But satay away from the Polo outlet. No real deals there.  

Ross or Marshall so long as you make sure you aren’t buying that pair of jeans meant for a third leg.   :o


Title: Re: Re: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: saintnicster on August 28, 2014, 06:43:32 am
Has he reneged?
Article has been removed

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/government/kaiser-foundation-says-it-will-preserve-its-turkey-mountain-property/article_96032e5c-2e54-11e4-9c2f-0017a43b2370.html

The TulsaWorld doesn't believe in permalinks :/


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 28, 2014, 08:06:51 am
Who knew Conan was a closeted environmentalist and big government/regulatory lib.  :o  To be clear, I am not up for calling people freeloaders, particularly in this area/context since I want cyclists to have something other than our busy streets for their activity. But when folks start messing with private property rights, and want to use government to limit/prohibit those rights, then there is a huge problem with me.



You do realize that ALL property rights have derived from the government.... for many, many centuries...millennia...??   (Again, the whole sense and knowledge of history thing.)

When the European monarchs won their wars - they, and since they were the government, owned all the property.  Royal grants of property were made to supporters as reward for their help.  When this country was founded, it was all based on grants by the English crown (and French and Spanish, etc) to groups of people and companies to come here to steal it from the natives and create economic endeavors that would enrich the home country.  Property rights were granted again by the crown.

When our revolution was fought, the state and federal govts then assumed all the rights and privileges of the crown - took some time and various iterations, but we finally got a compromise Constitution that everyone could agree to be mildly pissed about rather than ready to tear out other peoples throats.  And our ancestors agreed to this contract.

So, when movement west happened, the govt was the entity that assumed title to all lands - remember the Louisiana Purchase?  Govt bought it and granted property concessions.  Sending the army to exterminate the natives - well, that means the conquered territories, by definition belonged to the govt.  Wars with Spain to take Florida, Puerto Rico, Phillipines.  Literally from the east coast to the west and beyond.  And then we just bought Alaska from Russia.  And you know that's gotta be a burr under their saddle!!

And Texas stole most of that state from Mexico, and decided to join the US - THAT became part of the contract.  Wars of conquest (imperialistic voyeurism) with Mexico took California, Arizona, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, New Mexico, etc away from them.  (So, how is it we think we are so righteous and become so "morally indignant" about some of them trying to come back here to work...??  Rationalizations.)

This is one way the various govt entities rationalize property taxes, and taxes of all kinds.  It is our "tribute" to the various "crowns" - governments, federal, state, and local.

Your so-called "personal property rights" are, and always have been, by definition - conditional.   Just because you have a "huge problem" doesn't mean it is valid - 'cause it really isn't.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on August 28, 2014, 09:04:08 am
I remember the advertised prices at the outlet mall in Stroud as not being worth the drive there for how much I intended to purchase.  What is the real attraction for the outlet malls?



First attraction: Price
In the modern day outlet malls, the front 50-75% of many stores is a standard retail store, the real "outlet" is only the back portion of the store. In others, the whole store is an outlet. Major brands rotate their stock throughout the year. When nike comes out with the new zigzag air fusion 5000, they sent all the 4000's to their outlet stores. Generally at a markdown of 30-50%. In addition, the outlet stores often run sales on top of the outlet prices (buy one get one half off for example)

So, say you buy $100 Nikes normally (round number for easy math, I'm not judging you as a person). Last year's models are 30-50% off, so say $50-$70. Then you add the sale, you can get two pairs for $75-$105 instead of just one pair for $100.

Because it's old stock, you have a lower chance of finding what you want in your size, but you can still get pretty good discounts.

Second attraction: Selection
Many of these brand stores may not have an equivalent "regular store" in your area. There are some brands my wife buys for my kids that have no retail store in Oklahoma other than the outlet store. For other brands, like Skechers for example, you get a wider selection of their products at their dedicated outlet store than you get buying Skechers at department or shoe store.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Stanley1 on August 28, 2014, 11:52:18 am
My response to all the comments about "the new wearing off" of the outlet mall is this, have you ever seen any of the semi-local outlet malls empty?  Or shut down for any reason other than being demolished in a tornado (Stroud)?

The one in OKC is too new to judge.  But the one in Allen, TX is doing fine.  I believe there is one in Gainsville(?), TX as well, that seems to be doing fine.  I've past others in Missouri (I think) that seem to be doing fine.

I don't get the attraction either, but they are always busy, and Tulsa currently has citizens that make the drive to other towns or states to shop at these places.  That tells me all I need to know about successful one would be here.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: DowntownDan on August 28, 2014, 12:07:39 pm
The one in Gainesville is on its last leg.  It's a ghost town.  The food court is creepy as hell.  Not sure why, you would think that there would be plenty or room for it in addition to Allen, but for whatever reason, it seems inevitable to go under.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 28, 2014, 12:30:47 pm
My response to all the comments about "the new wearing off" of the outlet mall is this, have you ever seen any of the semi-local outlet malls empty?  Or shut down for any reason other than being demolished in a tornado (Stroud)?

The one in OKC is too new to judge.  But the one in Allen, TX is doing fine.  I believe there is one in Gainsville(?), TX as well, that seems to be doing fine.  I've past others in Missouri (I think) that seem to be doing fine.

I don't get the attraction either, but they are always busy, and Tulsa currently has citizens that make the drive to other towns or states to shop at these places.  That tells me all I need to know about successful one would be here.


Not just outlet malls - strip centers in general.  Fairly new version - Riverwalk.

Hopefully it will resurrect...we always enjoyed going over there.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: YoungTulsan on August 28, 2014, 12:40:59 pm
There was an outlet mall in Broken Arrow during the 80s that shut down.   It is now the Church @ Battle Creek.   I tried doing a google maps link but the forum breaks it.   On Aspen between 51st and the BA.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: DTowner on August 28, 2014, 01:37:10 pm
Further thoughts on the “lease” that Simon has signed seems nothing more than a way to tie up the property while they draft the concept drawings and hit the road to sign on tenants.  Sounds like the rival group wanting to put a mall in at I-44/244 in east Tulsa is competing for the same tenants.  They are the same developer who developed the outlet mall on I-40 near Council Road in OKC.  In other words, if that group can get the big draws like Nike, Coach, or whomever else.  The more I read of this, I seriously doubt Simon can attract 800,000 square feet of tenants, especially ones who they claim Tulsa would be their only Oklahoma location.  This is not simple on/off access parallel to the major interstate like the outlet malls in so many other areas.

I have my doubts this will really happen.

Seems highly unlikely both outlet malls will be built.  As I recall, the prospective developer for the potential I-44/I-244 mall wants a TIF for the area.  I don't think Simon is asking for anything like that, although as mentioned my many some serious infrastructure improvements to Hwy 75/61st would be necessary.  I would guess Simon would have at least a 50/50 chance of beating out the competitor for tenants.

Either location is ok by me.  Although I prefer the I-44/I-244 location because I think it would better tap into the Hard Rock/NW Ark markets and that area could use some economic vitality, the idea of yet another TIF is a big drawback.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: SXSW on August 28, 2014, 03:36:32 pm
So for those that don't want to see this by Turkey Mtn hope that the other outlet mall is built first. 

I honestly don't see the attractiveness for retail north of 71st along 75.  71st to 91st, definitely and I think that area will continue to build up as a retail center for the southwest metro.  Right now most of the residential growth is along and west of Elwood from 71st to 81st but I wonder where it will eventually expand?  East of Elwood?  North of 71st and west of Turkey Mtn?  That would be a desirable area to live being close to the trails and near 75.  Build another Jenks ES and watch it boom.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Red Arrow on August 28, 2014, 03:59:21 pm
East of Elwood?  

I think some of the property owners east of Elwood and north of the airport have delusions of riches from the Airport Authority.

http://goo.gl/maps/vcFdr




Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: YoungTulsan on August 28, 2014, 04:15:00 pm
Doesn't that spot flood every time we get an inch of rain?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on August 28, 2014, 04:16:32 pm
Ross or Marshall so long as you make sure you aren’t buying that pair of jeans meant for a third leg.   :o

Used to shop Ross all the time for clothes for myself. Still do on occasion.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Red Arrow on August 28, 2014, 04:31:43 pm
Doesn't that spot flood every time we get an inch of rain?
Along 81st it floods easily.  North along Elwood is higher ground.

Floodplains haven't stopped development before.  They just get flood insurance so we can all share in the loss.   :(



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Red Arrow on August 28, 2014, 04:32:32 pm
Used to shop Ross all the time for clothes for myself. Still do on occasion.

I've been in the Ross store by 71st & Memorial.  There is just something depressing about that place.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: ARGUS on August 28, 2014, 04:38:05 pm
ALL Outlet Malls are donkey...or will soon be. They end up being a huge albatross of a sh!tte building. I know. Iused to build Tanger Outlet Malls.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Hoss on August 28, 2014, 04:40:05 pm
I've been in the Ross store by 71st & Memorial.  There is just something depressing about that place.



There's something depressing about almost all stores out in the 71st and Memorial area.  I went to the WalMart one time on 68th and Memorial and it seemed worse than the one on Admiral & Memorial.  That takes some effort.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: TheArtist on August 28, 2014, 04:42:43 pm
Beware some of those bargains.  There was one product line we carried for a while that had some nice quality items.  Then one day a customer came in and said "Well I found that same item at Ross for 'such and such' a price", which was just a little over what we paid wholesale!  I was like "that sucks".  Later that week we went to Ross and low and behold the customer was right.  Almost.   The box looked EXACTLY like the box we had, opened it up, and the item at first glance looked the same, but, something seemed a little different.  I picked the item up and then I saw what the deal was, this was a more lightweight, cheaper version of what we had in our store. Regardless, it made me mad and I dropped the line and won't carry them anymore because most people are not going to pay attention to that, they are only going look at the package and the price and think my prices are higher for the same item, when they are not. Felt it was kind of screwy that this company did that.  Caveat Emptor on me I guess.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 28, 2014, 04:50:46 pm
Beware some of those bargains.  There was one product line we carried for a while that had some nice quality items.  Then one day a customer came in and said "Well I found that same item at Ross for 'such and such' a price", which was just a little over what we paid wholesale!  I was like "that sucks".  Later that week we went to Ross and low and behold the customer was right.  Almost.   The box looked EXACTLY like the box we had, opened it up, and the item at first glance looked the same, but, something seemed a little different.  I picked the item up and then I saw what the deal was, this was a more lightweight, cheaper version of what we had in our store. Regardless, it made me mad and I dropped the line and won't carry them anymore because most people are not going to pay attention to that, they are only going look at the package and the price and think my prices are higher for the same item, when they are not. Felt it was kind of screwy that this company did that.  Caveat Emptor on me I guess.

It’s quite common in retail to have one version of a product for deep discounters and one for other retailers.  I’ve been told the major soap manufacturers will use more fillers and less surfactants in detergent for Wal-Mart than what you might pick up at Reasor’s.  Or they manufacture a size slightly smaller than your local grocery store sells.

For the kinds of things you carry, I’d be surprised to find the same product in Ross or Marshall’s.  If I did see something you stock, and it was less at a discounter, I realize they are discounters and usually are selling seconds, irregulars, or old stock items.  I wouldn’t think there was anything untoward in your pricing.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 28, 2014, 04:52:51 pm
My response to all the comments about "the new wearing off" of the outlet mall is this, have you ever seen any of the semi-local outlet malls empty?  Or shut down for any reason other than being demolished in a tornado (Stroud)?

The one in OKC is too new to judge.  But the one in Allen, TX is doing fine.  I believe there is one in Gainsville(?), TX as well, that seems to be doing fine.  I've past others in Missouri (I think) that seem to be doing fine.

I don't get the attraction either, but they are always busy, and Tulsa currently has citizens that make the drive to other towns or states to shop at these places.  That tells me all I need to know about successful one would be here.

There is an abandoned one on I-35 near Tonkawa.  I think that one died almost as soon as it opened, I’d say it’s been there around 15 years.  It may have been the same developer as Gainesville but on a smaller scale.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on August 28, 2014, 05:02:07 pm
It’s quite common in retail to have one version of a product for deep discounters and one for other retailers.  I’ve been told the major soap manufacturers will use more fillers and less surfactants in detergent for Wal-Mart than what you might pick up at Reasor’s.  Or they manufacture a size slightly smaller than your local grocery store sells.

For the kinds of things you carry, I’d be surprised to find the same product in Ross or Marshall’s.  If I did see something you stock, and it was less at a discounter, I realize they are discounters and usually are selling seconds, irregulars, or old stock items.  I wouldn’t think there was anything untoward in your pricing.

New Balance sells shoes at Utica Square, and they have shoes at Walmart. The only thing in common is the name.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 28, 2014, 05:03:42 pm
New Balance sells shoes at Utica Square, and they have shoes at Walmart. The only thing in common is the name.

Yup.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on August 28, 2014, 05:12:07 pm
Yup.

Actually the thing to understand from this discussion is what they sell at walmart may appear to be the same products and same brands, but it most often is not.

Most people don't notice the cheaper materials, when their 5 pound flour bag is only 4 pounds, when the toilet paper rolls are smaller or when the role of scotch tape is only 10ft long.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Red Arrow on August 28, 2014, 06:50:52 pm
Actually the thing to understand from this discussion is what they sell at walmart may appear to be the same products and same brands, but it most often is not.
Most people don't notice the cheaper materials, when their 5 pound flour bag is only 4 pounds,

Sugar is also only 4 lb.

Miracle Gro potting soil is 2 cu ft rather than 64 quarts for the same stuff at Lowe's.  Try to convert that in your head while at the store.
(2 cu ft is approx 60 qts. per Google)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Red Arrow on August 28, 2014, 07:02:53 pm
There's something depressing about almost all stores out in the 71st and Memorial area.  I went to the WalMart one time on 68th and Memorial and it seemed worse than the one on Admiral & Memorial.  That takes some effort.

I don't like WM at 68th & Memorial either.  The one at 111th & Memorial isn't too bad.

I don't go to many stores in the 71st & Memorial area.  I go to Sears for Craftsman tools if they have something I need on sale.  I go to Penny's for Levis although I have also gone to Academy Sports since they are now carrying 569's in something beside destroyed colors.

High Gravity is a nice store.  I also go to the Hobby Town there for model RR stuff. 


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: SXSW on August 28, 2014, 07:10:24 pm
Along 81st it floods easily.  North along Elwood is higher ground.

Floodplains haven't stopped development before.  They just get flood insurance so we can all share in the loss.   :(

There's a noticeable hill as you go down into the Hager Creek floodplain on 81st just west of Elwood, and on Elwood just north of 81st.  You probably wouldn't want to build houses anywhere in that area, plus it's across the street from the airport.  That's not stopping them in Jenks though south of 91st.  But on the hill closer to 71st, that's prime property for residential development.  There's actually some bluffs in there east of Elwood above the Arkansas floodplain that have some decent views.  


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Red Arrow on August 28, 2014, 07:11:59 pm
New Balance sells shoes at Utica Square, and they have shoes at Walmart. The only thing in common is the name.

New Balance replaced the 993 shoes with a newer version of 990.  I don't like the 990s.  The tongue slides way off to the side and the heels fall apart.  NB did send me a free pair of 990s when I complained about really early failure of my first pair of 990s.  I found a place on-line that carries overstock 993s for the same price as I used to pay for them at Academy.  I guess I bought them from an Outlet store now that I think about it a bit.  I think I got free shipping.

http://www.joesnewbalanceoutlet.com/detail.asp?style=MR993GL&size=&width=&category=all&selection=mshoes&sort=POP&shoeLast=&price=



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on August 28, 2014, 07:17:34 pm
I remember the advertised prices at the outlet mall in Stroud as not being worth the drive there for how much I intended to purchase.  What is the real attraction for the outlet malls?



New Balance replaced the 993 shoes with a newer version of 990.  I don't like the 990s.  The tongue slides way off to the side and the heels fall apart.  NB did send me a free pair of 990s when I complained about really early failure of my first pair of 990s.  I found a place on-line that carries overstock 993s for the same price as I used to pay for them at Academy.  I guess I bought them from an Outlet store now that I think about it a bit.  I think I got free shipping.

http://www.joesnewbalanceoutlet.com/detail.asp?style=MR993GL&size=&width=&category=all&selection=mshoes&sort=POP&shoeLast=&price=




Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Red Arrow on August 28, 2014, 07:33:10 pm
I remember the advertised prices at the outlet mall in Stroud as not being worth the drive there for how much I intended to purchase.  What is the real attraction for the outlet malls?



Quote from: Red Arrow on Today at 08:11:59 pm
New Balance replaced the 993 shoes with a newer version of 990.  I don't like the 990s.  The tongue slides way off to the side and the heels fall apart.  NB did send me a free pair of 990s when I complained about really early failure of my first pair of 990s.  I found a place on-line that carries overstock 993s for the same price as I used to pay for them at Academy.  I guess I bought them from an Outlet store now that I think about it a bit.  I think I got free shipping.

http://www.joesnewbalanceoutlet.com/detail.asp?style=MR993GL&size=&width=&category=all&selection=mshoes&sort=POP&shoeLast=&price=

I would still have a difficult time convincing myself to drive to OKC for one or two pair of Levis that I could get in Tulsa.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Red Arrow on August 28, 2014, 07:36:55 pm
 But on the hill closer to 71st, that's prime property for residential development.  There's actually some bluffs in there east of Elwood above the Arkansas floodplain that have some decent views.  

The rumor I heard several years ago was that those property owners were looking for the City/Airport Authority to buy them out for additional safety zone area.  I think they are out of the zone though or they would have already been bought out.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on August 28, 2014, 08:42:02 pm
I would still have a difficult time convincing myself to drive to OKC for one or two pair of Levis that I could get in Tulsa.

Well yeah, who said anything about spending $30 on gas to save $20 on two pairs of pants?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Red Arrow on August 28, 2014, 09:01:56 pm
Well yeah, who said anything about spending $30 on gas to save $20 on two pairs of pants?

I guess I just don't generally spend as much on clothes as other people.  I actually hate going shopping for clothes.

I make up for not spending much money on clothes by converting av-gas to noise and then replacing the av-gas.  ;D





Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: chimchim on August 28, 2014, 09:28:10 pm
We've been doing a bit of homework on the Simon property development, and surrounding lots.  Tomorrow we'll be continuing a series of articles on building, planning, zoning, land ownership, etc. in the area.

http://tulsanow.org/index.php/turkey-mountain-what-happened/

If you've got some questions that you'd like us specifically to answer, let us know.  Thanks!


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on August 29, 2014, 04:30:19 am
Just to relate my own experience with a Simon Outlet (Arizona Mills) and Outlets at Anthem http://www.outletsanthem.com/ (http://www.outletsanthem.com/) north of Phoenix, I found good deals on clothing and shoes. At one time Anthem had a Reebok outlet where I could get 3 pair for the price of two (as long as one pair was priced less than the other two) and they were Reebok quality. I could buy three pairs of shoes for work for ~$60.00 and get shoes for nine months and year after year they had the same shoes. With my job at the time, I could wear golf shirts and jeans, and could get good prices on Greg Norman shirts, and Reebok shirts, usually $10.00 to $20.00. With Arizona Mills they had a JC Penney outlet where I could get golf shirts for $8.00 to $15.00 just after summer. All of these were usually first run clothes sent to the outlet after the winter clothes came in to the regular stores.

I could get between the two and a trip to Target for Wrangler Jeans, a years worth of work clothes and shoes for ~$250.00.

Arizona Mills has gone through changes of stores, they had JC Penney, Virgin Mega Store, Macy's, and they now have Needless Markup, Nordstrom, Sak's, and others, but it has maintained since the mid 90's, and hasn't become a vacant waste land.

The one in north Phoenix, still does quite well, and the two have enough different stores that they don't compete directly. Are there stores that are not real discounts? Yes, don't go to the Bose store and expect a bargin. Does Arizona Mills have a Ross and a Burlington Coat Factory? Yes it does, and I can tell you that I won't buy from Ross/TJ Maxx/Marshalls.

Both outlet malls in Phoenix have been in business for close to 20 years, and don't show any decay, dying, becoming a waste land of vacant places. The original Tanger in Stroud was a good idea, but as been mentioned, who wants to drive 50 miles to save less than what was spent in gas and tolls getting there, and really, who wanted to stop and shop there on a road trip.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on August 29, 2014, 07:13:04 am
Is this thread turning into what does Tulsa need more? Fully intact Turkey mountain or an outlet mall?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 29, 2014, 08:21:05 am
New Balance replaced the 993 shoes with a newer version of 990.  I don't like the 990s.  The tongue slides way off to the side and the heels fall apart.  NB did send me a free pair of 990s when I complained about really early failure of my first pair of 990s.  I found a place on-line that carries overstock 993s for the same price as I used to pay for them at Academy.  I guess I bought them from an Outlet store now that I think about it a bit.  I think I got free shipping.

http://www.joesnewbalanceoutlet.com/detail.asp?style=MR993GL&size=&width=&category=all&selection=mshoes&sort=POP&shoeLast=&price=




Joe's sells an MW927 which is "similar" to, but $50 cheaper than the MW928 - it's the discount version of 928.  When you search 927 on New Balance web site, it shows as the 928.  So Joe gets a different number at a different price point for the same shoe.  New Balance store at Utica Square sells the 928 - the one I like - may have to try Joe's to see how it holds up.


Kind of like Lowe's and their price guarantee - they will be all competitors by 10% for the same thing - and then buy a variation of the standard item, labeled specifically for them, so they never have to pay the difference!







Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 29, 2014, 08:23:16 am
Is this thread turning into what does Tulsa need more? Fully intact Turkey mountain or an outlet mall?


Yes, it is.

Growth for growth's sake....always go with the mall...!!

No matter how tacky in comparison to the surroundings.... actually, the more so the better....



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rdj on August 29, 2014, 08:35:44 am
We've been doing a bit of homework on the Simon property development, and surrounding lots.  Tomorrow we'll be continuing a series of articles on building, planning, zoning, land ownership, etc. in the area.

http://tulsanow.org/index.php/turkey-mountain-what-happened/

If you've got some questions that you'd like us specifically to answer, let us know.  Thanks!

It is a small nuance, but Simon has not purchased the land as you state in your post.  They've agreed to lease it per the TW stories.  Much easier to abandon a lease and leave the property owner hanging than it is to shut a project down and sell the land.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on August 29, 2014, 09:07:18 am


Arizona Mills has gone through changes of stores, they had JC Penney, Virgin Mega Store, Macy's, and they now have Needless Markup, Nordstrom, Sak's, and others, but it has maintained since the mid 90's, and hasn't become a vacant waste land.



"Uh Bevis, there’s this mega store where they sell virgins...uh huh huh huh uh”

(http://cdn.screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/beavis-and-butt-head.jpg)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Ed W on August 29, 2014, 09:18:08 am
"Uh Bevis, there’s this mega store where they sell virgins...uh huh huh huh uh”

(http://cdn.screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/beavis-and-butt-head.jpg)

Wait a minute. They're in Washington and they expect to find actual virgins?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Vision 2025 on August 29, 2014, 10:34:43 am
It is a small nuance, but Simon has not purchased the land as you state in your post.  They've agreed to lease it per the TW stories.  Much easier to abandon a lease and leave the property owner hanging than it is to shut a project down and sell the land.
Leases are often utilized to tie the property in the development phase then are converted to purchase at a later date.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on September 01, 2014, 12:58:12 am
At least they are not talking about road construction in that area.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepage1/no-road-construction-planned-for-st-street-at-u-s/article_ceb75a3f-801b-54d0-a349-e3d382a1f689.html


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: davideinstein on September 01, 2014, 09:36:13 am
Is this thread turning into what does Tulsa need more? Fully intact Turkey mountain or an outlet mall?

If so, the answer is a fully intact Turkey Mountain.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on September 01, 2014, 10:18:44 pm
At least they are not talking about road construction in that area.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepage1/no-road-construction-planned-for-st-street-at-u-s/article_ceb75a3f-801b-54d0-a349-e3d382a1f689.html

That could prove the project un-doing unless Simon is used to spending millions upon millions in infrastructure.  The interchange may seem pretty academic to them.  What if the city or county required a complete overhaul of the 61st/Elwood ribbon of road to 71st?  I’m not sure enough money exists to make that a safe stretch of road for high traffic.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on September 02, 2014, 07:26:41 am
That could prove the project un-doing unless Simon is used to spending millions upon millions in infrastructure.  The interchange may seem pretty academic to them.  What if the city or county required a complete overhaul of the 61st/Elwood ribbon of road to 71st?  I’m not sure enough money exists to make that a safe stretch of road for high traffic.

I've never seen a city/county ask for traffic improvements two ways on a project.

By all accounts Tulsa Hills/The Walk at Tulsa Hills will bring as much vehicle traffic to 81st as the outlet will to 61st but they aren't being asked to improve 81st and Elwood which is just as many lanes as 61st is. I think this means you have your answer already.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on September 02, 2014, 08:50:03 am
I've never seen a city/county ask for traffic improvements two ways on a project.

By all accounts Tulsa Hills/The Walk at Tulsa Hills will bring as much vehicle traffic to 81st as the outlet will to 61st but they aren't being asked to improve 81st and Elwood which is just as many lanes as 61st is. I think this means you have your answer already.

81st between Union and Elwood does not have several big elevation changes, a blind turn and good sized drop offs on either side of the road.  It’s not an accurate comparison.  Traffic congestion will be a biznitch on 81st.  People get killed on the other corridor from cars departing the roadway or head-ons.  As if to make a solid point of that:  As I was leaving Turkey Mountain with the International Mountain Bike Association rep on Saturday, two future organ donors passed us on their crotch rockets about midway up Elwood Hill.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Red Arrow on September 02, 2014, 10:47:40 am
As I was leaving Turkey Mountain with the International Mountain Bike Association rep on Saturday, two future organ donors passed us on their crotch rockets about midway up Elwood Hill.

They will probably damage those organs too much to use again.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on September 02, 2014, 11:05:39 am
They will probably damage those organs too much to use again.

Bad things happen to organs when they decelerate from 100 MPH to zero in a second or two.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on September 02, 2014, 11:36:12 am
81st between Union and Elwood does not have several big elevation changes, a blind turn and good sized drop offs on either side of the road.  It’s not an accurate comparison.  Traffic congestion will be a biznitch on 81st.  People get killed on the other corridor from cars departing the roadway or head-ons.  As if to make a solid point of that:  As I was leaving Turkey Mountain with the International Mountain Bike Association rep on Saturday, two future organ donors passed us on their crotch rockets about midway up Elwood Hill.

Your statement seems to assume such decisions are based on anything other than number of lanes.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on September 02, 2014, 01:17:42 pm
Your statement seems to assume such decisions are based on anything other than number of lanes.

You have to look at overall traffic density as well as relative safety of the road if you add significantly to the traffic count.  At least I hope they would, but this is government we are talking about so common sense probably has nothing to do with it.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: carltonplace on September 02, 2014, 01:31:13 pm
You have to look at overall traffic density as well as relative safety of the road if you add significantly to the traffic count.  At least I hope they would, but this is government we are talking about so common sense probably has nothing to do with it.

it's not that common


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rdj on September 02, 2014, 01:59:59 pm
Leases are often utilized to tie the property in the development phase then are converted to purchase at a later date.

Exactly my point.  Much easier for Simon to walk away from this project at this point than if they had executed a purchase.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: SXSW on September 10, 2014, 08:14:02 am
The Cherokees are now proposing an $80 million retail and entertainment complex in Catoosa.  How does this affect the other "proposals"?

http://m.krmg.com/news/news/local/expansion-planned-hard-rock-hotel-and-casino/nhJyg/ (http://m.krmg.com/news/news/local/expansion-planned-hard-rock-hotel-and-casino/nhJyg/)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on September 10, 2014, 12:57:06 pm
The Cherokees are now proposing an $80 million retail and entertainment complex in Catoosa.  How does this affect the other "proposals"?

http://m.krmg.com/news/news/local/expansion-planned-hard-rock-hotel-and-casino/nhJyg/ (http://m.krmg.com/news/news/local/expansion-planned-hard-rock-hotel-and-casino/nhJyg/)

Probably bad for the east Tulsa proposal, if it has any effect at all.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: DolfanBob on September 10, 2014, 01:00:59 pm
The Cherokees are now proposing an $80 million retail and entertainment complex in Catoosa.  How does this affect the other "proposals"?

http://m.krmg.com/news/news/local/expansion-planned-hard-rock-hotel-and-casino/nhJyg/ (http://m.krmg.com/news/news/local/expansion-planned-hard-rock-hotel-and-casino/nhJyg/)

Oh Gawd. They won't be happy till it resembles Disney World.

Cue the River Spirit announcement on an expansion to the Jimmy Buffett Hotel that's not even built yet.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: DTowner on September 10, 2014, 01:19:28 pm
Probably bad for the east Tulsa proposal, if it has any effect at all.

Very bad for the east Tulsa outlet mall and Tulsa in general.  The east Tulsa outlet mall was Tulsa's best chance of shoring up its sales tax base in that area for the next decade or so.  I don't see how both of these projects can work out and the east Tulsa project was already in jeopardy from the potential Simon outlet mall on Hwy 75.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on September 10, 2014, 02:25:55 pm
Very bad for the east Tulsa outlet mall and Tulsa in general.  The east Tulsa outlet mall was Tulsa's best chance of shoring up its sales tax base in that area for the next decade or so.  I don't see how both of these projects can work out and the east Tulsa project was already in jeopardy from the potential Simon outlet mall on Hwy 75.

Simon has far more hurdles to clear.  I spoke at length last night to a developer who evaluated the Simon property for a retirement community some years back.  He said the site development costs are going to be astronomical because there is so much rock.  He also mentioned ONG owns 40 acres on the west side of 75 where apartments were proposed but residents of housing additions near there blocked it.  That would make for a better space for Simon and an easier on/off.

I keep hoping they will go away anyhow.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: SXSW on September 10, 2014, 02:58:05 pm
If they have to develop the Turkey Mtn land by 75 the best thing would be a small office park.  Retail with its parking requirements and traffic is just a bad idea in that location.

By the way the Cherokee deal is for outlets which I would believe effectively kills the east Tulsa proposal and maybe Simon too: http://m.tulsaworld.com/homepage1/cherokee-outlets-announced-for-hard-rock-casino-site/article_8edbf76b-dbf2-507b-b483-d3d7db8c5c70.html?mode=jqm (http://m.tulsaworld.com/homepage1/cherokee-outlets-announced-for-hard-rock-casino-site/article_8edbf76b-dbf2-507b-b483-d3d7db8c5c70.html?mode=jqm)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on September 10, 2014, 03:56:42 pm
If you wanted to know why Simon announced when the deal wasn't finalized, now you know.

Early bird gets the worm outlet.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on September 10, 2014, 09:39:39 pm
I wonder why Simon is already breaking ground for the outlet mall at 61st & Hwy 75 then?   ;D


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: carltonplace on September 15, 2014, 07:33:31 am
I drove 61st yesterday at the 75 access and Conan is right...this intersection can't handle much additional traffic in its current state. The 90 degree turn from 61st to Elwood is already dangerous enough without mixing bargain hunters and trail users. If the outlet mall does take over this plot major infrastructure improvements are needed.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: DowntownDan on September 15, 2014, 10:23:51 am
My money would be on the Cherokee version to have the best chance of success.  Good location for Joplin-NWA shoppers and there is likely to be some significant overlap between gamblers, fans of aging rock groups, and outlet shoppers.  My biggest fear now is that one will succeed and the other two will be creepy ghost towns.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rebound on September 15, 2014, 10:44:20 am
My money would be on the Cherokee version to have the best chance of success.  Good location for Joplin-NWA shoppers and there is likely to be some significant overlap between gamblers, fans of aging rock groups, and outlet shoppers.  My biggest fear now is that one will succeed and the other two will be creepy ghost towns.

Kind of off topic, so I apologize, but it's a bit upsetting that the Cherokee's plan includes ripping up part of the golf course.  I realize it doesn't get the acclaim it once did, but that golf course is Perry Maxwell design from 1924.  Maxwell was a partner with Alister MacKenzie, one of the most famous golf course architects of all time, and designer of Augusta National.   Maxwell also did Southern Hills and Mohawk Park.   The Hard Rock course (ne'e Indian Hills Country Club) has an amazing pedigree, is a classic layout, and if cleaned up and restored would  be a great destination course.  Too bad the Cherokee's don't see the value in keeping the course alive.



 


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Red Arrow on September 15, 2014, 11:38:41 am
Too bad the Cherokee's don't see the value in keeping the course alive.

Welcome to the world of vanishing airports. 



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: bacjz00 on September 15, 2014, 11:57:46 am
From what I read, they are relocating/redesigning 6 holes of the course.

 I don't think they have any intention of getting rid of it.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rebound on September 15, 2014, 12:02:50 pm
From what I read, they are relocating/redesigning 6 holes of the course.

 I don't think they have any intention of getting rid of it.

I saw that.  But it doesn't really do much good to say "2/3 thirds of this course is a classic Perry Maxwell design". 


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: DolfanBob on September 15, 2014, 12:09:07 pm
Kind of off topic, so I apologize, but it's a bit upsetting that the Cherokee's plan includes ripping up part of the golf course.  I realize it doesn't get the acclaim it once did, but that golf course is Perry Maxwell design from 1924.  Maxwell was a partner with Alister MacKenzie, one of the most famous golf course architects of all time, and designer of Augusta National.   Maxwell also did Southern Hills and Mohawk Park.   The Hard Rock course (ne'e Indian Hills Country Club) has an amazing pedigree, is a classic layout, and if cleaned up and restored would  be a great destination course.  Too bad the Cherokee's don't see the value in keeping the course alive.



 

Meh! from the ground. They all look the same. But then again. I don't Golf.  ::)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: dioscorides on October 20, 2014, 10:07:29 am
Another outlet mall planned for east Tulsa

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/another-outlet-mall-planned-for-east-tulsa/article_c9075f67-f23e-5f91-9f87-45af3bb0373e.html

BY LAURIE WINSLOW World Business Writer

Horizon Group Properties announced it will go ahead with plans to build an upscale, deco-style mall in east Tulsa.

Details of the outlet mall will be unveiled during a press conference Wednesday at Tulsa City Hall.

Michigan-based Horizon Group Properties is the developer of the Shoppes at OKC as well as 11 retail developments throughout the United States.

The future retail development will feature 90 stores and will open in 2017. In addition to the outlet mall, the plan includes 355,000 square foot of gross leasable land for restaurants, hotels and additional retail operations development.

The Horizon announcement follows recent plans by the Cherokee Nation to build an east Tulsa outlet mall and by Simon Properties to build one in west Tulsa.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: DowntownDan on October 20, 2014, 10:12:53 am
I thought this latest one was actually the first announced?  Same group as the OKC mall.  I remember something about that a long time ago.  Or am I taking crazy pills.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: dioscorides on October 20, 2014, 10:18:23 am
I thought this latest one was actually the first announced?  Same group as the OKC mall.  I remember something about that a long time ago.  Or am I taking crazy pills.

You are correct.  This is the first one.  I guess they are just confirming that they are still going forward.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on October 20, 2014, 11:01:40 am
You are correct.  This is the first one.  I guess they are just confirming that they are still going forward.

I know Simon had sent their PUD paperwork to INCOG two weeks ago, but still interested to see if it moves forward with the competition in east Tulsa.

Of greater interest is the developer of the Cherokee project considers Simon to be a development partner on other projects.  Kind of an odd way to treat a partner.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: DTowner on October 20, 2014, 11:24:41 am
I know Simon had sent their PUD paperwork to INCOG two weeks ago, but still interested to see if it moves forward with the competition in east Tulsa.

Of greater interest is the developer of the Cherokee project considers Simon to be a development partner on other projects.  Kind of an odd way to treat a partner.

As I recall the Horizon group was asking for a TIF.  There is no mention of this in the article and I wonder if they've dropped that condition in order to move the project forward more quickly. 

It looks like a 3-way race to see who can line up enough tenant commitments to justify breaking ground.  I can't see all 3 getting built (especially given the proximity of the Horizon project to the Cherokee project) and realistically only 1 will likely happen.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Townsend on October 20, 2014, 12:03:45 pm
I'm guessing one will go forward and end up as a Life Church.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Townsend on December 05, 2014, 01:16:22 pm
An Official Announcement Is Made on a Planned Outlet Mall in West Tulsa

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/official-announcement-made-planned-outlet-mall-west-tulsa (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/official-announcement-made-planned-outlet-mall-west-tulsa)

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kwgs/files/201412/Tulsa_Premium_Outlets.jpg)

Quote
Developers of one of the three outlet malls planned for Tulsa announce some details. Tulsa Premium Outlets is the only one of the three being built on the west side, at Highway 75 and 61st Street. Simon, the developer of Woodland Hills Mall, is behind this project. Company Exec Mark Silvestri says shops will be up-scale, but he isn’t ready to name any prospects yet. The 400-thousand square foot shopping mall will be built in two phases.

There are two other outlet malls being planned for East Tulsa. Most observers believe there may be opportunity for two outlet malls in the Tulsa area, but not three.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: LandArchPoke on December 05, 2014, 01:54:22 pm
An Official Announcement Is Made on a Planned Outlet Mall in West Tulsa

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/official-announcement-made-planned-outlet-mall-west-tulsa (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/official-announcement-made-planned-outlet-mall-west-tulsa)

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kwgs/files/201412/Tulsa_Premium_Outlets.jpg)


The proposed architecture for this is butt ugly.

Wonder why they haven't released a site plan yet? If they are negotiating with tenants they have one...

I can tell from the rendering though this will be similar to the plan of the OKC outlets, inward facing retail in a square surrounded by a sea of parking lots. Way to go Simon, keep on thinking inside the box. In 5 years when outlet shopping tanks and goes out of trend we will have destroyed a section of one of our biggest natural gems in the city with a 50% vacant POS strip mall.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on December 05, 2014, 02:02:45 pm
There’s a site plan on one of the other media sites, might have been Channel 2.  Simon has to observe a buffer zone on the edges of its property where it abuts the Y and the private land to the east of it.  There’s still people trying to stop the development all together, but there’s also another group taking the approach of “if this happens” they are planning to work with Simon to get some trail work done in the buffer zone.  International Mountain Bicycling Association has interest in helping on this part.

One thing not addressed in the site plan is what they plan to do with the outdated infrastructure to get people in and out of their mall.  One proposal I’ve been told is an extension of Olympia Ave. north from Tulsa Hills through the property the Siegfrieds own just south of this development.  

Today’s announcement was a dog and pony show for the city and something they can show potential tenants.  They are still a ways off from turning any dirt.

This is not what good development looks like, but as long as we are dependent on sales tax for the bulk of our city’s operating budget, we are whores to bad development.

(http://media2.kjrh.com/photo/2014/12/05/mall1_1417802203441_10470103_ver1.0_900_675.jpg)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: YoungTulsan on December 05, 2014, 02:11:52 pm
I hope there's a place to park.

What will the runoff and drainage ramifications be for that square mile of parking?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: RecycleMichael on December 05, 2014, 02:45:44 pm
At least it won't have any of those dangerous sidewalks.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: LandArchPoke on December 05, 2014, 03:26:00 pm
There’s a site plan on one of the other media sites, might have been Channel 2.  Simon has to observe a buffer zone on the edges of its property where it abuts the Y and the private land to the east of it.  There’s still people trying to stop the development all together, but there’s also another group taking the approach of “if this happens” they are planning to work with Simon to get some trail work done in the buffer zone.  International Mountain Bicycling Association has interest in helping on this part.

One thing not addressed in the site plan is what they plan to do with the outdated infrastructure to get people in and out of their mall.  One proposal I’ve been told is an extension of Olympia Ave. north from Tulsa Hills through the property the Siegfrieds own just south of this development.  

Today’s announcement was a dog and pony show for the city and something they can show potential tenants.  They are still a ways off from turning any dirt.

This is not what good development looks like, but as long as we are dependent on sales tax for the bulk of our city’s operating budget, we are whores to bad development.

(http://media2.kjrh.com/photo/2014/12/05/mall1_1417802203441_10470103_ver1.0_900_675.jpg)

I saw this on Channel 2 right after I posted my comment.

Ironically, looks like Simon doesn't even know where Tulsa is located...

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/661/G7E9dZ.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/idG7E9dZj)

Lawton... Tulsa, same thing. Only 3 hours and 150+ miles off.

If TIF money is going into this development we really need to seek a high value for tax payers investment. Retail rents in Tulsa are very high for land on construction costs. As I would imagine they'll be charging over $30.00 NNN per square foot similar to the other Tulsa Hills area development, we need to seek better use of this land. Simon could easily replace the surface parking lots with a parking garage and open the outlet retail front to the streets and build bike lanes into the development and embrace the trails and bikers. Our city leadership isn't brave enough to seek more innovative design.. it's a shame really because the odds are that this is the development that will happen. Simon controls the vast majority of outlet centers in North America and they have the pull with tenants to land them at their development over any other competitor.   



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on December 05, 2014, 03:45:02 pm
And, as usual, the city and county pay for study after study of what smart development looks like, then we completely ignore it.  Here’s an excerpt from the 2004 Arkansas River Corridor Master Plan, commissioned by INCOG:

Quote
“Turkey Mountain Urban Wilderness Area occupies one of the most prominent locations along the river corridor and represents a unique opportunity for substantial urban wilderness in close proximity to the heart of metropolitan Tulsa. The park should be expanded to the extent possible through the acquisition of adjacent undeveloped property and preserved in perpetuity as an urban wilderness/open space area, Development within the park should be limited to uses complementary to this great natural resource, such as hiking, equestrian trails and stables, environmental education and related uses.”

http://riverprojectstulsa.info/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Phase-1-Vision-Plan-Report-INCOG-final.pdf

I’ve already drafted a letter to councilors.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on December 05, 2014, 03:50:11 pm
I hope there's a place to park.

What will the runoff and drainage ramifications be for that square mile of parking?

There could be severe ramifications if the engineering is incorrect.  Ron Flannagan attended one of our preservation meetings, he’s an expert on the subject and was responsible for this report on the Mooser Creek watershed where this flows into.  There could be flooding of the Y property as well as the industrial and commercial developments which back up to Mooser Creek to the south of I-44 and east of Hwy 75 if done incorrectly.  It also removes some of the natural filtration that the dirt, rocks, trees, and grasses provide now.  So basically, you get a fresh shot of oil, antifreeze, and road grime right into he Arkansas River about a mile or so down stream.

http://www.rdflanagan.com/mooser/mooser.pdf


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: LandArchPoke on December 05, 2014, 04:32:34 pm
And, as usual, the city and county pay for study after study of what smart development looks like, then we completely ignore it.  Here’s an excerpt from the 2004 Arkansas River Corridor Master Plan, commissioned by INCOG:

http://riverprojectstulsa.info/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Phase-1-Vision-Plan-Report-INCOG-final.pdf

I’ve already drafted a letter to councilors.

Planning is little more than lip service in Tulsa.

In other news Saks OFF Fifth, Oklahoma City's outlet anchor, is closing effective Jan. 5th

http://www.koco.com/news/anchor-store-at-outlet-shoppes-closing/30076462

So please City of Tulsa, let's throw millions in subsidies for an outlet mall on top of the most sensitive nature areas in Tulsa County, that will be largely vacant in 5 years.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Townsend on December 05, 2014, 04:45:28 pm

So please City of Tulsa, let's throw millions in subsidies for an outlet mall on top of the most sensitive nature areas in Tulsa County, that will be largely vacant in 5 years.

It will be busy as Hell for at least the first 4 months.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Ibanez on December 05, 2014, 07:49:29 pm
Planning is little more than lip service in Tulsa.

In other news Saks OFF Fifth, Oklahoma City's outlet anchor, is closing effective Jan. 5th

http://www.koco.com/news/anchor-store-at-outlet-shoppes-closing/30076462

So please City of Tulsa, let's throw millions in subsidies for an outlet mall on top of the most sensitive nature areas in Tulsa County, that will be largely vacant in 5 years.

Not surprised. That Saks was a trainwreck. My wife talked me into going to the outlet twice and both times we went in that store it looked like 1000 kids amped up on Kool Aid and Pixie Sticks tore through it.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 07, 2014, 08:34:55 pm
Not surprised. That Saks was a trainwreck. My wife talked me into going to the outlet twice and both times we went in that store it looked like 1000 kids amped up on Kool Aid and Pixie Sticks tore through it.


Yum!!  Pixie Sticks!!  Or just a package of Kool-Aid with a teaspoon of sugar mixed in with it in the pouch!!



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on December 07, 2014, 08:55:23 pm
Planning is little more than lip service in Tulsa.

In other news Saks OFF Fifth, Oklahoma City's outlet anchor, is closing effective Jan. 5th

http://www.koco.com/news/anchor-store-at-outlet-shoppes-closing/30076462

So please City of Tulsa, let's throw millions in subsidies for an outlet mall on top of the most sensitive nature areas in Tulsa County, that will be largely vacant in 5 years.

Saks is closing a number of stores.

http://www.northjersey.com/news/business/saks-fifth-avenue-to-close-store-in-the-shops-at-riverside-1.1113309 (http://www.northjersey.com/news/business/saks-fifth-avenue-to-close-store-in-the-shops-at-riverside-1.1113309)

http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/news/2013/12/04/saks-jobs-aberdeen-layoffs.html (http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/news/2013/12/04/saks-jobs-aberdeen-layoffs.html)

http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/blog/real_estate/2014/12/saks-off-5th-cut-50-jobs-minneapolis-store-closure.html (http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/blog/real_estate/2014/12/saks-off-5th-cut-50-jobs-minneapolis-store-closure.html)

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=293025;topic=20701.180;sesc=99d51c0d381fafe5f80e1d5c1b7d3b3a (http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=293025;topic=20701.180;sesc=99d51c0d381fafe5f80e1d5c1b7d3b3a)



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on December 08, 2014, 09:22:42 am
My wife made an interesting comment on “outlet” malls.  She mentioned she used to shop at Tanger in Stroud.  Back then, an outlet store truly was last season’s unsold clothing which was parceled out to outlets from a company’s primary stores.  Stores like Mikasa sold items which might have had minor paint flaws, small chips, things of that nature.  It was true bargain shopping if you were willing to buy items which were slightly irregular or didn’t follow the most up-to-date fashion trends.

Now, an outlet store is simply slightly different goods than a retailer sells in it’s primary stores and the pricing is not really any better than what you’d find in a company’s regular stores.  The last two outlet malls I’ve been to were the Shoppes in OKC and one in Georgetown, Tx. just north of Austin.  I honestly didn’t find the pricing that impressive and certainly not worth a trip specifically to go shop an outlet.  Shopping isn’t really my thing to start with, so my opinion of them might be pretty jaded well beyond the location Simon chose for this.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rebound on December 08, 2014, 10:11:43 am
... Now, an outlet store is simply slightly different goods than a retailer sells in it’s primary stores and the pricing is not really any better than what you’d find in a company’s regular stores. 
...

That is exactly right.  And with the increasing rise of internet shopping, the allure of outlet malls continues to dwindle.  The era of "undiscovered bargains" at outlet malls, or anywhere else really, is over.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on December 08, 2014, 10:15:41 am
That is exactly right.  And with the increasing rise of internet shopping, the allure of outlet malls continues to dwindle.  The era of "undiscovered bargains" at outlet malls, or anywhere else really, is over.


If you read through some industry trade papers, they would try to lead people to believe otherwise.  Certainly, open air shopping is supplanting the enclosed malls if you compare the two, it looks like great growth for outlets.  At the same time, many people find the convenience of online shopping pretty irresistible and that segment keeps growing.  I can see the need for terrestrial clothing and shoe stores so you get something which fits right the first time.  As far as the other craptastic stores in outlet malls, I really don’t see the point when you could get the same item for less online and have it within a day or three depending on where it ships from.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: TheArtist on December 08, 2014, 05:04:11 pm
If you read through some industry trade papers, they would try to lead people to believe otherwise.  Certainly, open air shopping is supplanting the enclosed malls if you compare the two, it looks like great growth for outlets.  At the same time, many people find the convenience of online shopping pretty irresistible and that segment keeps growing.  I can see the need for terrestrial clothing and shoe stores so you get something which fits right the first time.  As far as the other craptastic stores in outlet malls, I really don’t see the point when you could get the same item for less online and have it within a day or three depending on where it ships from.

My thought, and I really don't know what they typically have at outlet malls, is that they might have "name brand" stores that have a wider range of their merchandise than you might find elsewhere.  I would hope for instance that any clothing brands they have might be more stylish and offer a broader variety, and by "upscale" they mean "thin".

One downside I have heard of in relation to these outlet malls is that sometimes even when it's a "higher end, brand name" the product can be of lesser quality.  Which I don't get for it would seem to degrade your own brand,,, but I guess if it works.  

But I am probably with some people on here who think that the days of the "outlet mall" are pretty much over.  They will likely get a rush at first then people will realize, hmmm no big deal.  My own view of outlet malls is that they seem to be kind of be in the same league as " US style casino's and flea markets"  no matter how good they are they always seem to have that palpable air of hope/expectation and inevitable let-down about them.      


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: LeGenDz on December 08, 2014, 06:29:00 pm
They were talking about it being 800,000sqft in the beginning. Now theyre down to the same size as the East Tulsa proposed outlet mall. I'm hoping the East TuLsa one gets built over this. Win win for future East Tulsa development and growth and the Tulsa Hills trails/nature (not that it wont stop someone else for coming in).


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on December 08, 2014, 06:51:44 pm
Outlet malls in 2014 are nothing like outlet malls of the 80's and 90's

Outlet malls today are basically a collection of brand stores (Michael Kors, Coach, Skechers, etc) who products are otherwise only available in limited quantities at (generally faltering) retailers like Macys and Penney's. Here they have more control over their merchandising like they would at an indoor mall or a place like utica square, but in a slightly lower overhead format. 75% or more of the store is full retail, with some prior-season merchandise on markdown in the back.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: LandArchPoke on December 08, 2014, 08:22:04 pm

(http://media2.kjrh.com/photo/2014/12/05/mall1_1417802203441_10470103_ver1.0_900_675.jpg)


Something also to note about this site. There is only ONE entrance/exit. Can you imagine funneling the amount of visitors for 400,000 square feet of retail into only a single point? And that point being off 61st Street. Even if you extend Olympia from the Spine Hospital to this site, you're still funneling everyone through one single access point. Again, I can't believe Simon or any retail is looking at this and thinking this development will be successful. It's retail 101 that when you have any sort of mass of retail you need multiple access point to enter/exit. This is something the city really needs to press/question Simon on. I have never seen a successful retail development on this scale with this limitation.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 08, 2014, 10:09:28 pm
Something also to note about this site. There is only ONE entrance/exit. Can you imagine funneling the amount of visitors for 400,000 square feet of retail into only a single point? And that point being off 61st Street. Even if you extend Olympia from the Spine Hospital to this site, you're still funneling everyone through one single access point. Again, I can't believe Simon or any retail is looking at this and thinking this development will be successful. It's retail 101 that when you have any sort of mass of retail you need multiple access point to enter/exit. This is something the city really needs to press/question Simon on. I have never seen a successful retail development on this scale with this limitation.


It's Simon....

Simon == Fail.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on December 08, 2014, 10:43:20 pm
Something also to note about this site. There is only ONE entrance/exit. Can you imagine funneling the amount of visitors for 400,000 square feet of retail into only a single point? And that point being off 61st Street. Even if you extend Olympia from the Spine Hospital to this site, you're still funneling everyone through one single access point. Again, I can't believe Simon or any retail is looking at this and thinking this development will be successful. It's retail 101 that when you have any sort of mass of retail you need multiple access point to enter/exit. This is something the city really needs to press/question Simon on. I have never seen a successful retail development on this scale with this limitation.

Speaking to that concern, there is a parcel available on the west side of 75 between 61st & 71st.  A developer friend of mine who originally looked at developing a light office/medical/retirement community on the site we are talking about pointed out it would be very simple to construct on/off ramps into the property west of 75, plus access from 61st, 71st, and as many entrances as needed off Union.

Not sure if this will post correct or not, but it’s the google map of the Shoppes at Oklahoma City at I-40 and Council Road.  There’s a loop road around the mall with two entrance/exits on Reno and one onto Council.

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4622672,-97.6489237,17z

It also illustrates the huge gap left by Saks closing their store.  28,000 square feet and one of the “anchors” of this mall.  One reason stated for traditional enclosed malls failing is losing their anchors.  Many depended on Sears, JCP, Macy’s, etc.  So what happens when outlet malls lose their anchors?  Hmmmm?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on December 08, 2014, 10:48:56 pm
My thought, and I really don't know what they typically have at outlet malls, is that they might have "name brand" stores that have a wider range of their merchandise than you might find elsewhere.  I would hope for instance that any clothing brands they have might be more stylish and offer a broader variety, and by "upscale" they mean "thin".

One downside I have heard of in relation to these outlet malls is that sometimes even when it's a "higher end, brand name" the product can be of lesser quality.  Which I don't get for it would seem to degrade your own brand,,, but I guess if it works.  

But I am probably with some people on here who think that the days of the "outlet mall" are pretty much over.  They will likely get a rush at first then people will realize, hmmm no big deal.  My own view of outlet malls is that they seem to be kind of be in the same league as " US style casino's and flea markets"  no matter how good they are they always seem to have that palpable air of hope/expectation and inevitable let-down about them.      

From what I can see it’s all Asian-made crap with a “name” label stuck on it.  I’m sure it’s highly profitable to the retailers, buy container loads of goods from China, Taiwan, India, and Thailand where labor is stupid cheap and pawn them off on hapless consumers as “premium” goods.

GHACK!



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: SXSW on December 09, 2014, 01:42:09 pm
I'm just hoping the other malls start first and this one fades away.  I'm pulling for the east Tulsa one because I actually think it could jump start more development in that neglected part of the city but would be okay with the Cherokee project too as long as this land isn't developed into this retail center .


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: DTowner on December 09, 2014, 02:34:16 pm
From what I can see it’s all Asian-made crap with a “name” label stuck on it.  I’m sure it’s highly profitable to the retailers, buy container loads of goods from China, Taiwan, India, and Thailand where labor is stupid cheap and pawn them off on hapless consumers as “premium” goods.

GHACK!

So, outlet malls sell cheaply made merchandise at fairly high markups and margins.  How is this really different than what Wal-Mart, Target, Kohl’s, TJ Max and a host of other large chain stores advertise that they do every day?

Sgrizzle is right, the modern outlet mall is a gathering of designer/brand names that usually appear as products in larger department stores of old.  The fact that the merchandise is of lesser quality and price than these designers’ top-shelf items is probably much less of a shock to most shoppers of these malls than given credit.  While “outlet” used to imply it was last year’s unsold items and slightly damaged/defective goods, it has been a long while since that was primarily the case and most outlet mall shoppers are savory enough to understand that fact.

No one is building in-door malls (some websites claim one has not been built in the US since 2006) and most with Sears and/or JC Penny's as anchors are dying along with those chains, but life-style centers and outlet malls are two current growth areas of brick and mortar retail development.

I see advantages and disadvantages to both the Simon and the east Tulsa sites.  On balance I prefer the east Tulsa site because the area more desperately needs development and it would help protect Tulsa’s sales tax base from encroachment from the east.  However, I think an east Tulsa location will be less popular among Tulsans than the Simon site due to perceptions of east Tulsa.  Nonetheless, the Simon site sits in the middle of a developing commercial corridor with high daily traffic counts and access to major highways.  It is going to get developed commercially now or in the very near future unless someone steps in and pays a lot of money to make it a preserved area.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on December 09, 2014, 07:29:54 pm
I am in favor of whatever makes me happy. Outlet malls make me happy. Private property rights make me happy.  ;D

Now, rather than pulling a shroud over the potential 61st & Hwy 75 mall development before it is even open yet, or suggesting that it might sell crap, it is my understanding that this development is on private property. Am I right? If it succeeds or fails should not be any concern of those that do not own that property. 


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Red Arrow on December 09, 2014, 08:34:13 pm
I am in favor of whatever makes me happy. Outlet malls make me happy. Private property rights make me happy.  ;D

Now, rather than pulling a shroud over the potential 61st & Hwy 75 mall development before it is even open yet, or suggesting that it might sell crap, it is my understanding that this development is on private property. Am I right? If it succeeds or fails should not be any concern of those that do not own that property. 

I am going to buy the lot next to yours.  I plan to tear down the house and use the place for POD storage to help clear out my garage.
 
 ;D


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on December 09, 2014, 08:46:25 pm
I am in favor of whatever makes me happy. Outlet malls make me happy. Private property rights make me happy.  ;D

Now, rather than pulling a shroud over the potential 61st & Hwy 75 mall development before it is even open yet, or suggesting that it might sell crap, it is my understanding that this development is on private property. Am I right? If it succeeds or fails should not be any concern of those that do not own that property. 

Quit using words I agree (at least partially) with


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on December 10, 2014, 01:16:18 am
I am in favor of whatever makes me happy. Outlet malls make me happy. Private property rights make me happy.  ;D

Now, rather than pulling a shroud over the potential 61st & Hwy 75 mall development before it is even open yet, or suggesting that it might sell crap, it is my understanding that this development is on private property. Am I right? If it succeeds or fails should not be any concern of those that do not own that property. 

I’m all for private property rights.  I’m against crappy development which isn’t consistent with its surroundings.  Someone show me how this development makes sense adjacent to an urban wilderness area other than: “It’s private property, so shut up!” 

It’s kind of like neighborhood covenants which keep someone from opening a salvage yard across the street from your home, Guido.  Hey, it’s their private property, right?

That’s what zoning codes are supposed to be for.  This was all zoned AG until 2008.  May I also mention the seller of this property has enjoyed paying the low agriculture tax rates (+/- $1000/yr) for the last six years even though he managed to get zoning changed to commercial?

The old axiom of "Just because you can doesn’t mean you should” keeps running in a loop in my mind when I think of this development. 



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: LandArchPoke on December 10, 2014, 11:53:36 am
They were talking about it being 800,000sqft in the beginning. Now theyre down to the same size as the East Tulsa proposed outlet mall. I'm hoping the East TuLsa one gets built over this. Win win for future East Tulsa development and growth and the Tulsa Hills trails/nature (not that it wont stop someone else for coming in).

They never said 800,000 sq ft. That was the stated size of Allen Premium Outlets, and they said the Tulsa version would be "half the size". I do hope for the East Tulsa locations, as it would better serve pulling in visitors from NWA.


I am in favor of whatever makes me happy. Outlet malls make me happy. Private property rights make me happy.  ;D

Now, rather than pulling a shroud over the potential 61st & Hwy 75 mall development before it is even open yet, or suggesting that it might sell crap, it is my understanding that this development is on private property. Am I right? If it succeeds or fails should not be any concern of those that do not own that property. 

It becomes a concern of EVERYONE who lives in the City of Tulsa when they are requesting PUBLIC funds to make this project financially feasible. At that point, asking these questions is vitally important... or else in five years we will be stuck with bonds the city can't afford to pay off because half the outlet mall is vacant because a combination of issues already stated.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: LeGenDz on December 10, 2014, 03:24:33 pm
This is what I was referring to..

They never said 800,000 sq ft. That was the stated size of Allen Premium Outlets, and they said the Tulsa version would be "half the size". I do hope for the East Tulsa locations, as it would better serve pulling in visitors from NWA.

City leaders flew out to the Simon outlet mall near San Diego and developers told them their premium Tulsa outlets would be similar, but much larger -- as big as 800,000 square feet.

That would dwarf the outlet mall currently in Oklahoma City which is only half that size.



http://www.newson6.com/story/26319071/developer-confirms-premium-outlet-mall-coming-to-tulsa


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cannon_fodder on December 10, 2014, 05:37:41 pm
I am in favor of whatever makes me happy. Outlet malls make me happy. Private property rights make me happy.  ;D

Now, rather than pulling a shroud over the potential 61st & Hwy 75 mall development before it is even open yet, or suggesting that it might sell crap, it is my understanding that this development is on private property. Am I right? If it succeeds or fails should not be any concern of those that do not own that property. 

Ever since zoning, land use development, master plans, small area plans, and government funding for private projects... the "it's my land I do what I want!" argument has lost a ton of luster.

I know a number of people who live in communities with intrusive HOAs where massive amounts of property rights are regularly given away.  Some people are thrilled with it.  Some people constantly sue their own HOAs over stuff.  On the other end of the spectrum is wholly unrestricted rural land - where people build mini-subdivision and then complain about farm smells, wind turbines, and that the roads aren't wide enough.  Cities, on the other hand, have adopted a middle approach.  Some restrictions, an eye towards "best use", and public input.  In exchange for giving up some control, land owners get some assurances.

The era of unfettered property rights died with the civil war (it had nothing to do with the civil war, it just so happened zoning laws and case law on the matter started in the late 1860s). Cities, and those that live in them, have an interest in what goes where.  Believe it or not, but sometimes land owners want to use their land for a use that is detrimental to adjacent land owners and not in the best interest of the community.

In this particular instance, it IS in the interest of the community because:
1) They want public funds to complete the project, including millions for infrastructure.
2) It will affect a public park. Yes, the property is NOT part of the public park and the owner has the right to exclude the public. But the public can object to any zoning changes or funding requests.
3) The City has an interest in ensuring that land is put to the best use.  Development near an urban wilderness can be a huge advantage and a commercial draw of a unique persuasion.  An outlet mall can go anywhere there is highway traffic.
4) Finally, when a "big box" or other development fails, the City is often left to pick up the pieces.  That's a problem, particularly when public funds are involved.

Finally, most outlet malls do sell "crap." Many stores now manufacture items specifically for the outlet malls. The retailers have the outlets to boast sales and profits.  They cannot do this by merely selling their goods for less than their normal retail locations.  So they manufacture "other" products to sell to mass market consumers at lower price points.

Quote
According to SmartMoney, 82% of all products sold in an outlet store are made to be sold there.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/investopedia/2012/12/29/7-tips-for-outlet-mall-shopping/


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on December 11, 2014, 01:30:00 pm
Ever since zoning, land use development, master plans, small area plans, and government funding for private projects... the "it's my land I do what I want!" argument has lost a ton of luster.

I know a number of people who live in communities with intrusive HOAs where massive amounts of property rights are regularly given away.  Some people are thrilled with it.  Some people constantly sue their own HOAs over stuff.  On the other end of the spectrum is wholly unrestricted rural land - where people build mini-subdivision and then complain about farm smells, wind turbines, and that the roads aren't wide enough.  Cities, on the other hand, have adopted a middle approach.  Some restrictions, an eye towards "best use", and public input.  In exchange for giving up some control, land owners get some assurances.

The era of unfettered property rights died with the civil war (it had nothing to do with the civil war, it just so happened zoning laws and case law on the matter started in the late 1860s). Cities, and those that live in them, have an interest in what goes where.  Believe it or not, but sometimes land owners want to use their land for a use that is detrimental to adjacent land owners and not in the best interest of the community.

In this particular instance, it IS in the interest of the community because:
1) They want public funds to complete the project, including millions for infrastructure.
2) It will affect a public park. Yes, the property is NOT part of the public park and the owner has the right to exclude the public. But the public can object to any zoning changes or funding requests.
3) The City has an interest in ensuring that land is put to the best use.  Development near an urban wilderness can be a huge advantage and a commercial draw of a unique persuasion.  An outlet mall can go anywhere there is highway traffic.
4) Finally, when a "big box" or other development fails, the City is often left to pick up the pieces.  That's a problem, particularly when public funds are involved.

Finally, most outlet malls do sell "crap." Many stores now manufacture items specifically for the outlet malls. The retailers have the outlets to boast sales and profits.  They cannot do this by merely selling their goods for less than their normal retail locations.  So they manufacture "other" products to sell to mass market consumers at lower price points.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/investopedia/2012/12/29/7-tips-for-outlet-mall-shopping/

I will put you in the "no" category when it comes to private private rights whenever there may be a public "interest".  Your HOA example is just absurd.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 11, 2014, 01:53:34 pm
I will put you in the "no" category when it comes to private private rights whenever there may be a public "interest".  Your HOA example is just absurd.



And the type of "private rights" being complained about is a fantasy that has never existed on the planet since the advent of civilization.  There has always been a 'tribute' due the governing authority either by choice (as in a republic or democracy) or not (most other forms of governance).



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on December 11, 2014, 03:14:30 pm
Here’s the web page of the Tulsa Urban Wilderness Coalition, a group which was formed as a result of this potential development.

http://www.tulsaurbanwildernesscoalition.org

And their Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/Tulsaurbanwildernesscoalition

Their mission statement is:

“The coalition’s mission is to preserve, protect and promote the responsible use and enjoyment of Green Country’s urban wildness areas for current and future generations."


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on December 11, 2014, 07:29:34 pm
I’m all for private property rights.  I’m against crappy development which isn’t consistent with its surroundings.  Someone show me how this development makes sense adjacent to an urban wilderness area other than: “It’s private property, so shut up!”   

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03118/should_3118079c.jpg)

It's also adjacent to a highway. I'm not saying I think this is the right place, but I'm also pretty sure that the fact a small part of the population has been trespassing on the property from a park 1/4 mile away probably wasn't a major concern.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on December 12, 2014, 12:53:07 am
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03118/should_3118079c.jpg)

It's also adjacent to a highway. I'm not saying I think this is the right place, but I'm also pretty sure that the fact a small part of the population has been trespassing on the property from a park 1/4 mile away probably wasn't a major concern.

I don't understand. Is the private property that might be developed into an outlet mall being used by "trespassers" from Turkey Mountain?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rebound on December 12, 2014, 08:40:33 am
I don't understand. Is the private property that might be developed into an outlet mall being used by "trespassers" from Turkey Mountain?


OK, I'm going to have to "dude" you...

Dude, have you not been reading the threads on here related to this?   Yes, there were/are bike trails all over this piece of land and have been for years.   Go back and read the threads for the whole story.  (and if that was a troll,  I bit)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cannon_fodder on December 12, 2014, 12:38:44 pm
He was just being obtuse.

In fact, I walked those trails over the weekend. Had a great day.

And I think my HOA scenario was apropos. People exchange certain rights on their property for other benefits.  When owning land in an urban area one has acquiesced to a similar arrangement.

I understand your property rights argument. If the City denies his ability to build he may have a case against them for a taking. BUT - I think the City has a duty to all citizens above and beyond what is in the best financial interest of one property owner.

My real concern isn't that I will miss this small section of trail, and I'm not TOO concerned about the slippery slope argument. What I am really concerned about is entirely destroying the nature of the urban wilderness area.  If it becomes congested, polluted, and loud - then we have destroyed an amazing and unique asset in exchange for something that isn't special at all. That cannot be undone. Even small concessions by the developer could help alleviate my concerns.  Instead, the entity has entirely ignored all concerns to chase profit.  Which is fine for them, but again, may not be in the best interest of the City of Tulsa (hard to believe, but Ayn Rand wasn't spot on).

Cost benefit analysis leads me to favor the status quo. Preferably the City or some benefactor would purchase the land and close the parcel. Absent that, we need sensible building requirements and a lack of public funds to both discourage unwanted development and encourage practices and uses that compliment our asset.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Weatherdemon on December 12, 2014, 01:35:26 pm
To me, this falls in line with what everyone on here complains about...
People complaining about lack of development then complaining about the development that others plan.

Just like Brady. No one gave a crap who/what the Theater, street, district was named after until it came life again then someone played this grey race card to put the area in a bad light and potentially reverse the good that had been done. Fortunately the City Council had a shining moment and took care of this.

This area being discussed now is private property. Yes, too bad the trails that had been created will no longer be there but this isn't a public area. If everyone was so concerned they should have made a push to make the acreage public when all of the development down the road started.

The people complaining about this sound like the people complaining about the sidewalk for the park.

It's all NIMBY all the time.

Build it and they will come. Just don't build it where I'll be because I don't want them to come there.




Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on December 12, 2014, 02:59:26 pm
To me, this falls in line with what everyone on here complains about...
People complaining about lack of development then complaining about the development that others plan.

Just like Brady. No one gave a crap who/what the Theater, street, district was named after until it came life again then someone played this grey race card to put the area in a bad light and potentially reverse the good that had been done. Fortunately the City Council had a shining moment and took care of this.

This area being discussed now is private property. Yes, too bad the trails that had been created will no longer be there but this isn't a public area. If everyone was so concerned they should have made a push to make the acreage public when all of the development down the road started.

The people complaining about this sound like the people complaining about the sidewalk for the park.

It's all NIMBY all the time.

Build it and they will come. Just don't build it where I'll be because I don't want them to come there.


To me, it has nothing to do with loss of trail use.  There is one trail which bisects this property I use on a regular basis.  It would not ruin my life if I could no longer access it.  Why I see this as an inappropriate development is this land has for the last 40 some years been envisioned as an urban wilderness.  

This is the blog of a trail runner and resident of the small housing addition which is just to the west of the main parking area at TMUA, so I’d call him a legitimate stakeholder.  There are two articles, one from the Trib and the other from the World from the 1980’s when the park first opened and later about plans to expand it.  As well, when INCOG did the Arkansas River Master Plan about ten years ago, the recommendation was to acquire all the contiguous land and keep it as a wilderness preserve.  Tulsa owes a deep debt of gratitude to Jackie Bubenik for making Turkey Mountain happen in the first place.

His blog is rather bitter and somewhat sarcastic, that’s not what I want you to glean from this, I want people to see what the long term vision has been for this land for at least 35+ years.

http://trailzombie.com/2014/12/a-lot-has-happened-since-i-last-posted.html

Between budget cuts and downturns in the economy, this parcel was never purchased.  My understanding is the adjoining property owner to the east has made his intentions known that the property he controls is to remain wilderness.  

An outlet mall is probably the most incongruous development I could think of to plop down next to an urban wilderness area.  If you would like to see what sensible development looks like in or adjacent to an urban wilderness area, look no further than Crystal Bridges in Bentonville, Ark.

http://crystalbridges.org/trails-and-grounds/

Instead of putting in a retail development, Bentonville has created a really nice tourist attraction which brings in revenue from all over the region and they have a museum which is world-renown.  We have the level of philanthropy in Tulsa to make projects like this happen.

If I had my perfect world scenario, where they already had cleared the upper six acres on this parcel, more parking and a visitor center would be a nice addition with a micro museum detailing the history of Turkey Mountain.

Yes the horse may be out of the barn and it may be sad hindsight that no one foresaw something like this coming.  I also admit I have a predisposed dislike for large chains and mall shopping, it’s just not my thing.  I prefer to support local when at all possible.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cannon_fodder on December 12, 2014, 03:02:11 pm
WD: quality development that fits with a plan.

Tulsa sucks at the planning part.

See, e.g., the entire east side.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: ZYX on December 12, 2014, 03:37:49 pm
I'd rather this mall get built in one of the several large empty pieces of land near my house than near Turkey Mountain. For me, and I think many others opposed to this, it's not a NIMBY thing, it's that we need to do all we can to protect such an extensive and vital piece of urban wilderness.

I use Turkey Mountain all the time. That and the river trails are one of my main sources of entertainment in the summer. Development immediately around Turkey Mountain (which will require wider roads) will irreversibly ruin one of the most unique parts of Tulsa.

The most infuriating thing, to me, is that the developers are asking for public money. The public doesn't want this development, we shouldn't have to help pay for it! Even here in Bixby, almost everyone I hear mention this new mall is against it, even people that don't use Turkey Mountain.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on December 12, 2014, 03:56:16 pm
There’s a perfect piece of land right across the highway on the south west corner of the interchange that won’t interfere with Turkey Mountain at all.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on December 13, 2014, 10:02:54 pm
There’s a perfect piece of land right across the highway on the south west corner of the interchange that won’t interfere with Turkey Mountain at all.
 

Ding, ding, ding! Winner!

I’m pretty sure the selling broker doesn’t want them to realize that.  Turns out, even though there’s a 15 million gallon water tank east of 75, the water main they have to tap for this property is west of 75.  It also would not require ONEOK relocating a high pressure natural gas line which runs under the proposed development, and I would assume there is a much shorter run to existing storm and sanitary trunk lines on the west side of 75 than there is on the east side.  Highway access would be far more simplified, they have room for their own off ramp and there’s ways to modify the existing 71st street off ramp to accept traffic returning to 75 from there with fairly simple modification.





Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on December 13, 2014, 11:07:16 pm
There’s a perfect piece of land right across the highway on the south west corner of the interchange that won’t interfere with Turkey Mountain at all.

The residents in that area are already opposing all commercial development west of 75 due to flooding issues, traffic issues, and general NIMBYness. I think I even heard there was some sort of halt until floodwater engineering was done.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 14, 2014, 06:50:42 pm
It's gonna be another little "strip center" fail like many dozens, if not hundreds, sprinkled all around the metro area.  And we will get to pay for the infrastructure just to gain another little blighted area.


Title: Re: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cynical on December 15, 2014, 12:17:29 am
 

Ding, ding, ding! Winner!

I’m pretty sure the selling broker doesn’t want them to realize that.  Turns out, even though there’s a 15 million gallon water tank east of 75, the water main they have to tap for this property is west of 75.  It also would not require ONEOK relocating a high pressure natural gas line which runs under the proposed development, and I would assume there is a much shorter run to existing storm and sanitary trunk lines on the west side of 75 than there is on the east side.  Highway access would be far more simplified, they have room for their own off ramp and there’s ways to modify the existing 71st street off ramp to accept traffic returning to 75 from there with fairly simple modification.

Conan, please answer the following questions:

1. You have repeatedly described the property in question as pristine urban wilderness. Can you identify any "wilderness" in the US that has retained that designation after having a pipeline of any kind laid across it?

2. When the pipeline you referred to was laid, doing considerable damage to the "pristine" character of the property, did anyone object to the pipeline for the reason that wilderness was being destroyed? Please resist the temptation to argue that the property retained its wild character. Pipeline companies not only install the pipeline, but also maintain the right of way to keep it clear of obstructions. There will be no trees in that right of way as long as the pipeline is maintained.

3. You believe that vacant land west of Hwy 75 would be a preferable location for an outlet mall. Is that land available at a similar cost? Is it available at all?

4. There are a considerable number of residents living practically across the street from the property you propose for the outlet mall. Wouldn't their interest in the issue be more important than the trail users? These same residents recently defeated an attempt to develop a small portion of the undeveloped land lying east of Union between 61st and 71st for multi-family use. Do you believe they would be less effective at resisting a larger, purely commercial development? BTW, they are well organized. The city has already shown that it listens to their concerns.

5. Please explain why people who have been using someone else's property without the owner's consent should have any right to be heard on the issue of how the owner intends to develop his or her land?

6. Would your position be different if the property owner closed access to the property by the general public, including the mountain bikers who have used the owner's property for recreational purposes without compensating the owner for the fair market value of that use?


Title: Re: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on December 15, 2014, 11:33:31 am
Conan, please answer the following questions:

1. You have repeatedly described the property in question as pristine urban wilderness. Can you identify any "wilderness" in the US that has retained that designation after having a pipeline of any kind laid across it?

If you want to apply your definition of “pristine", land which has had trail cut or worn through it would no longer be considered “pristine”.  There is a pipeline road along the western boundary of this property.  It is densely wooded from the west side of that pipeline road to the final clearing adjacent to Highway 75.  All of the Turkey Mountain area is dotted with relics from oil exploration dating to the 1920’s as well as ruins of old homesteads and a clearing near the eastern side of the area for a power line right of way. For that matter, the Rocky Mountains has the continental divide trail which follows the divide from Canada to Mexico.  I suppose we can’t call that pristine anymore.  Sure looks pristine to me when I’m on the trail.

2. When the pipeline you referred to was laid, doing considerable damage to the "pristine" character of the property, did anyone object to the pipeline for the reason that wilderness was being destroyed? Please resist the temptation to argue that the property retained its wild character. Pipeline companies not only install the pipeline, but also maintain the right of way to keep it clear of obstructions. There will be no trees in that right of way as long as the pipeline is maintained.

I have no clue if anyone complained or not.  It’s still quite wild on either side of the pipeline clearing.  Instead of being coy, what’s your point?  This development will require the pipeline to be moved and it appears it will be moved further to the east which will destroy more wilderness area east of the existing pipeline clearing.  Since we are on the topic of wilderness or pristine wilderness, can you point to me any other recreation area within Tulsa which offers the same sort of recreational and educational opportunities as TMUWA does?

3. You believe that vacant land west of Hwy 75 would be a preferable location for an outlet mall. Is that land available at a similar cost? Is it available at all?

It’s been related to me there is a 55 acre parcel which currently belongs to ONEOK and they tried to sell it to an apartment developer.  The neighbors across Union did not want an apartment complex there, so it did not happen.  I have no idea as to the cost of the property.

4. There are a considerable number of residents living practically across the street from the property you propose for the outlet mall. Wouldn't their interest in the issue be more important than the trail users? These same residents recently defeated an attempt to develop a small portion of the undeveloped land lying east of Union between 61st and 71st for multi-family use. Do you believe they would be less effective at resisting a larger, purely commercial development? BTW, they are well organized. The city has already shown that it listens to their concerns.

Absolutely they would have an interest in it and they also have a stake in the current location.  Placing the outlet mall even at the current proposed site will increase traffic congestion for those residents.  Does Jon Ferris, the owner of the property bordering this one on the east have a say in what is developed or whether or not they move the high pressure gas line on his property?  Does the YMCA which borders the property to the north, or the Siegfrieds who own the parcel south if 61st St. have a say in how this is developed or not developed?

5. Please explain why people who have been using someone else's property without the owner's consent should have any right to be heard on the issue of how the owner intends to develop his or her land?

Have I ever said it was an issue of trail users having a right to be heard?  As a citizen and tax payer within the city of Tulsa, anyone has the right to speak up about a development in which the developer asks for public funding of any sort to make their development happen.  Simon will be asking for a TIF.  As someone who regularly transits the area, public safety is a legitimate concern.  Based on the renderings Simon released on Dec. 5, they show no widening of the 61st street bridge over highway 75 which is two lanes.  61st, which transitions into Elwood is a dangerous stretch of road even with limited traffic counts.  Can the I-44/75 interchange, in it’s current configuration, handle added traffic?  Add in the additional traffic load and there’s zero doubt there will be more head on and roll-over crashes on 61st/Elwood.  If they widen the road and level it to make it safer, they will destroy yet more wilderness.

Certainly the residents of the neighborhood to the west of the TMUWA parking lot have a say in this due to an uptick in traffic along the route which feeds their neighborhood.


6. Would your position be different if the property owner closed access to the property by the general public, including the mountain bikers who have used the owner's property for recreational purposes without compensating the owner for the fair market value of that use?

Why is everyone hung up on the mountain bikers?  Do you realize there are equestrians, hikers, and runners who use this trail as well as scout and school groups who have used this property over the years?  

It is the owner’s prerogative to fence it off and put up no trespassing signs and I have no problem with an owner doing so, and I would respect it.  The owner of the property has never elected to do so and most people have assumed for years with the lack of section line fencing though all these parcels that the land has been public.  

I personally had assumed it was YMCA land from when I went to day camp there in the 1970’s and we rode horseback extensively on that property and the properties adjacent to it.  The whole area from the river to highway 75 was listed on the RPA map on the RPA and INCOG websites along with the trails through the subject property.  That has led to a lot of confusion as to who owns any of the land considered as TMUWA over the years.  It’s only this development which has led to examination of all the property holders on Turkey Mountain.

From all the other users I’ve spoken to, no one would have a problem with an annual access fee to utilize the land if it would have been demanded in lieu of fencing it off.  Obviously the seller of the property did not object that people were using it until he could sell it off or he would have restricted access.

It’s interesting you brought this up, There was a planning commission hearing in 1994 on whether to locate the 15 million gallon water tank on Turkey Mountain proper or south of 61st Street where it was finally located.  At that meeting Malcom Mccollam (a local attorney) made the comment that trail users would not be compensated for loss of trail use.  I would have never made such a construct, myself.  I simply found that an odd comment.


Title: Re: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on December 15, 2014, 06:16:25 pm
It is the owner’s prerogative to fence it off and put up no trespassing signs and I have no problem with an owner doing so, and I would respect it.  The owner of the property has never elected to do so and most people have assumed for years with the lack of section line fencing though all these parcels that the land has been public.  

Quote from: Oklahoma Statute
4.  “Recreational trespass” means remaining on land for a recreational use after being asked to leave by the owner, or the entry on land for a recreational use without the express or implied consent of the owner.

Quote from: Oklahoma Statute
1.  The absence of posting shall not by itself be sufficient to imply consent.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on December 15, 2014, 10:08:21 pm
OK, I'm going to have to "dude" you...

Dude, have you not been reading the threads on here related to this?   Yes, there were/are bike trails all over this piece of land and have been for years.   Go back and read the threads for the whole story.  (and if that was a troll,  I bit)

Being 100% serious as I never been out to this place. I have read through older posts and saw maps and things. I may have even said something about some of these trails being on property where this development may be built. Just didn't remember. But if you are looking for very good analysis of the legal issues surrounding this development, go back and read cynical's posts on pages 3-5. BY FAR some of the best stuff I have read in this forum.


Title: Re: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: LandArchPoke on December 15, 2014, 11:13:19 pm

5. Please explain why people who have been using someone else's property without the owner's consent should have any right to be heard on the issue of how the owner intends to develop his or her land?


I haven't seen anyone answer yet in the group rambling "private property rights!" of why everyone shouldn't be allowed to have say in what is built because they are requesting PUBLIC assistance. Typically when anyone or any entity puts a large sum of financial obligations into an investment, they typically get a say into how it's used correct? I don't see many millionaires go please take my money financial advisor and have no say in what is done? Same with any privately ran business. Why is the taxpayer's dime ok to throw at a private developer and not be allowed say in whether citizen by in large even want the development here?

If this land owner can contract with a developer who can foot the bill 100% and pay for infrastructure improvements on site, by all means they are free to do it. That IS NOT what is happening here. It's not our job as taxpayers to make this development financially feasible if we would rather try to keep this area "wilderness". If this upsets the private landowner and he wants to fence off the property from any public use, by all means do it. I'd rather see the trees and keep this area the way is it, then see Tulsa Hills 2 flatten another beautiful area of my city with MY tax dollars.


Title: Re: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on December 16, 2014, 12:17:13 am
I haven't seen anyone answer yet in the group rambling "private property rights!" of why everyone shouldn't be allowed to have say in what is built because they are requesting PUBLIC assistance. Typically when anyone or any entity puts a large sum of financial obligations into an investment, they typically get a say into how it's used correct? I don't see many millionaires go please take my money financial advisor and have no say in what is done? Same with any privately ran business. Why is the taxpayer's dime ok to throw at a private developer and not be allowed say in whether citizen by in large even want the development here?

If this land owner can contract with a developer who can foot the bill 100% and pay for infrastructure improvements on site, by all means they are free to do it. That IS NOT what is happening here. It's not our job as taxpayers to make this development financially feasible if we would rather try to keep this area "wilderness". If this upsets the private landowner and he wants to fence off the property from any public use, by all means do it. I'd rather see the trees and keep this area the way is it, then see Tulsa Hills 2 flatten another beautiful area of my city with MY tax dollars.

Ah yes, the "taxpayer" right to be heard. Well, I am a tax payer too and I do not want to "hear" from you on this subject any longer. I also want this development to proceed.  So there.  :P

Too bad you don't have the same respect for Maple Ridge homeowners wanting to be heard when it comes the Gathering Place sidewalk/parking mess. Freakin hypocrite. 



Title: Re: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: carltonplace on December 16, 2014, 07:29:47 am
Ah yes, the "taxpayer" right to be heard. Well, I am a tax payer too and I do not want to "hear" from you on this subject any longer. I also want this development to proceed.  So there.  :P

Too bad you don't have the same respect for Maple Ridge homeowners wanting to be heard when it comes the Gathering Place sidewalk/parking mess. Freakin hypocrite. 



??HUH??

Maple Ridge residents don't want the public to park on public streets or to have a public sidewalk constructed for public use on the public right of way even though the public will park and walk even without the sidewalk.


Simon Outlet mall wants the public to build public infrastructure to their private property but they don't want the public to have a say about the property use.

How is he a hypocrite?



Title: Re: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: LandArchPoke on December 16, 2014, 08:31:58 am
Ah yes, the "taxpayer" right to be heard. Well, I am a tax payer too and I do not want to "hear" from you on this subject any longer. I also want this development to proceed.  So there.  :P

Too bad you don't have the same respect for Maple Ridge homeowners wanting to be heard when it comes the Gathering Place sidewalk/parking mess. Freakin hypocrite. 



If you do not want to hear from me, stop reading my posts. Simple right?

If you want the development to proceed, good for you. There are probably more people that don't. I have the same respect for Maple Ridge residents, but when public money is in play everyone should have a voice. If no one speaks up, nothing changes. Speaking up encourages debate, and at the end of the day if people aren't overly stubborn and can let their ego down it allows for better solutions.

I'm against the development here as it is planned/proposed to date. If they built this into a mixed-use village and use some of the TIF money to building parking structures to reduced the footprint of this development I would support it. Think something like Whistler Village in British Columbia, a small walkable community with structure parking on the edge that would embrace trail users (I can't see how that would be bad for business?), and minimize the development footprint. I'm educated in design and real estate development, so I get the financial side and the design side. Simon is just trying to come in and build this as cheap as possible and squeeze out as much public money as they can to maximize profits. Well if they want to do that, I refuse to give my support to this development. If they want public assistance it should be to building something better than average. If you can't make the ROI work on an average development on this property without subsidy, find another property or go away because we don't need an outlet mall that badly.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on December 16, 2014, 08:33:53 am
Grizzle, people could make a reasonable inference from this official Riverparks map that the subject property and other privately-held properties were public domain:

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t31.0-8/s960x960/10504893_10204356579934755_5833360461091939914_o.jpg)

In other words, prior to now, very few people would have realized this was privately-held property. 

Riverparks and INCOG have since gone back and replaced this map in their links with a map sectioning out the privately-held lands and identifies the proposed outlet mall.  Prior to a few months ago, this is what people viewed when they pulled up the Turkey Mountain Urban Wilderness map on the RPA and INCOG web sites.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rebound on December 16, 2014, 10:28:56 am
Being 100% serious as I never been out to this place. I have read through older posts and saw maps and things. I may have even said something about some of these trails being on property where this development may be built. Just didn't remember. But if you are looking for very good analysis of the legal issues surrounding this development, go back and read cynical's posts on pages 3-5. BY FAR some of the best stuff I have read in this forum.

I'm going to yield to others regarding the legal aspects of this, as I'm an engineer not a lawyer.  But there is a great discussion to be had (actually, I guess we are all having it...) on the aspect of landowner rights versus public good, or similar.   I personally think the mistake was made a few years back when they rezoned this property from agricultural to commercial (and then apparently never changed the taxes, but that's another topic).  But that's old news now, and the point at hand is whether the proposed development is a good fit for the area.   To that aspect of the topic, I think LandArch and Conan make some very good points related to the rights of public input when tax dollars are going to be used as part of (or because of) the development.

I will admit though, and holding all legal issues aside, to a personal opinion that is something along line of  "Good Lord, we don't need another outlet mall and if they absolutely have to build one this is a terrible spot to put it."


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Red Arrow on December 16, 2014, 10:35:20 am
I'm going to yield to others regarding the legal aspects of this, as I'm an engineer not a lawyer.  But there is a great discussion to be had (actually, I guess we are all having it...) on the aspect of landowner rights versus public good, or similar.   I personally think the mistake was made a few years back when they rezoned this property from agricultural to commercial (and then apparently never changed the taxes, but that's another topic).  But that's old news now, and the point at hand is whether the proposed development is a good fit for the area.   To that aspect of the topic, I think LandArch and Conan make some very good points related to the rights of public input when tax dollars are going to be used as part of (or because of) the development.

I will admit though, and holding all legal issues aside, to a personal opinion that is something along line of  "Good Lord, we don't need another outlet mall and if they absolutely have to build one this is a terrible spot to put it."

This may not win me any friends but...
Offer the land owner the opportunity to pay the back taxes at commercial rate or rezone back to agricultural and offer to buy the land at agricultural value.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 16, 2014, 11:50:48 am
This may not win me any friends but...
Offer the land owner the opportunity to pay the back taxes at commercial rate or rezone back to agricultural and offer to buy the land at agricultural value.



Probably a good idea!   But I want some of what you have been smoking....





Title: Re: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cynical on December 16, 2014, 03:07:48 pm

I had to abandon an attempt to answer Conan's reply in detail because of a lack of time, so I'll keep this short. The reason for the original questions was that Conan was on both sides of too many issues:

1. Simultaneously arguing that the property was pristine wilderness while citing the existence of an active natural gas pipeline on the property as a reason this property is unsuited to the proposed use.

2. Simultaneously arguing that the use unofficial trails across that property by mountain bikers and others doesn't drive his objections while pointing with approval to a mountain biking group's web site trying to drum up opposition.

3. Simultaneously arguing that the mall is a lousy idea and arguing that it should be relocated to a location where nearby residents have already defeated an attempt to build an apartment complex. Maybe this isn't as contradictory as 1 and 2. It might be more like a poison pill.

4. Arguing that the mall would somehow deprive the public, which has no right to use the property at all, of an irreplaceable recreational and educational resource, ignoring the fact that there is a large amount of tick-infested "pristine wilderness" left over throughout the area, including a substantial amount of public land intentionally set aside for such purposes.

5. Admitting that the owner of this property has private property rights but implicitly arguing that the owner should be barred from making economic use of the property, giving short shrift to the very substantial risk that by doing so the city would be held to have taken the property through reverse condemnation.  

As I have said before, I have no particular dog in this hunt. My own take on the above questions straightforward enough.

1. The property isn't pristine wilderness. It's not even non-pristine wilderness. It is in a patchwork of actively maintained, sporadically maintained, and unmaintained areas. The Continental Divide Trail, which I too have experienced, crosses a good many areas that are not wilderness. In Colorado, some wilderness areas do include old abandoned mines, somewhat analogous to the abandoned oil wells near Turkey Mountain, but none include actively maintained pipeline rights of way. All designated wilderness areas prohibit vehicular traffic, including mountain bikes.

2. The proposed outlet mall would not deny the public access to whatever passes for wilderness in the area. The park remains in place, unaffected by the development, with all of its educational and recreational opportunities intact. The only thing that would change from that perspective is the removal of a trail that crosses private property without the consent of the owner. And in case someone must see "pristine wilderness" on private property, there's plenty of that left over, including the tract Conan thought would be more useful. I think there's a homeless guy living in the woods between Union Ave. and Hwy 75 and between 61st and 71st, so the educational opportunities there for the kids would be infinitely greater.

3. Whether another outlet mall is "needed" or serves the public interest is quite debatable, but in market-driven economic system it is up to the people putting their capital at risk to decide if the risks exceed the potential benefits. I would be curious about the developers' exit strategy if the mall failed. That is my only significant concern. Being a non-centrally planned economy we don't have a system in place in which outlet malls have to be permitted as hospitals do. In the debate about permitting the City of Faith, Oral's premise was that the patients would flock here from around the country, so there would be no appreciable drain on other local hospitals. The patients never showed up, and the hospital died, leaving the building standing empty. The exit strategy was to repurpose the buildings. I have no clue about what could be done with an empty outlet mall. Perhaps it could be repurposed into office space or a bar catering to all of the mountain bikers who work up a thirst nearby.

4. Likewise, the costs of relocating, accommodating, or accessing various utilities are borne by the developers and their eventual customers. The developers have asked for a TIF to help fund infrastructure improvements, presumably improvements to the access streets and intersections. Since this property is not currently generating sales taxes, the cost to the city of such a TIF is basically zero except for possible cannibalization of sales taxes from other Tulsa retailers who might lose sales to merchants at this mall. I imagine the mall proponents argue that the mall will draw customers from a wide area who do not currently shop in Tulsa. See the City of Faith example above. Councilor Jeannie Cue says she is enthusiastic about this development. She was not at all enthusiastic about the proposed apartment complex across from West Highlands I. I can only assume that the West Highlands folks would greet an attempt to locate the outlet mall on Union as warmly as they greeted the apartments. BTW, I felt the West Highlanders' objections were just so much NIMBYism.

5. The environmental impact of this development is far less than that of the Tulsa Hills development that generated no opposition except for my wife. At Tulsa Hills they removed a large hill, trees, dirt, rock, deer, snakes, ticks and all. For this one they need to remove trees and cover it with buildings and concrete. If they don't handle the runoff issues correctly, the Y may have a good cause of action.

6. The neighbors don't seem to mind. Oh, wait, there aren't any.  

7. Basically, it all adds up to the opposition mainly being driven by the loss of use of the trail. The alternative to allowing the landowner to develop its property is for an entity with the power of eminent domain to take it for public use.

I have one small, nit-picky comment on the issue of trespass. Trespass on real property is defined generally as an entry [upon/under the surface of] the real estate of another without the permission of the person lawfully entitled to possession. Permission may be either express or implied. The issue about posting only has to do with the crime of trespass under Oklahoma law, which makes no pretense of defining trespass generally. A civil action for trespass either seeking monetary damages or injunctive relief if damages weren't an adequate remedy would still lie if the above definition, which was taken from the applicable civil jury instruction, fit.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: LandArchPoke on December 16, 2014, 07:02:37 pm
cynical - I do like your point about what is the developers exit strategy. This is something I was leading towards in earlier posts, but as proposed it was be very difficult to convert into normal retail. Suburban outlet centers are designed in such a distinct way that it really is only meant for that purpose. Every trend in real estate is going away from single purpose development. Even outlet centers are shifting this way as well.

If it was built as a mixed-use development... add structured parking and residential above, then if the outlet fade wanes (as I suspect it will shortly) then the retail space can be transitioned to basic retail (Starbucks, Chipotle, etc.)

Here is an urban outlet center being proposed/under construction:

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/537/nww4Lm.png) (https://imageshack.com/i/exnww4Lmp)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/910/90cngY.png) (https://imageshack.com/i/pa90cngYp)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/905/OPEzdL.png) (https://imageshack.com/i/p5OPEzdLp)

Multi-family is in high demand in this area... why not re-think this development a little bit?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on December 16, 2014, 07:36:44 pm
Grizzle, people could make a reasonable inference from this official Riverparks map that the subject property and other privately-held properties were public domain:

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t31.0-8/s960x960/10504893_10204356579934755_5833360461091939914_o.jpg)

In other words, prior to now, very few people would have realized this was privately-held property. 

Riverparks and INCOG have since gone back and replaced this map in their links with a map sectioning out the privately-held lands and identifies the proposed outlet mall.  Prior to a few months ago, this is what people viewed when they pulled up the Turkey Mountain Urban Wilderness map on the RPA and INCOG web sites.

That isn't an official map, it was made by someone who enjoys the trails, other orgs just made use of it for a time.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Red Arrow on December 16, 2014, 08:55:55 pm
That isn't an official map, it was made by someone who enjoys the trails, other orgs just made use of it for a time.

Giving it the appearance of an official map.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: ZYX on December 16, 2014, 10:07:17 pm
That map was (is?) on display at Turkey Mountain.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rebound on December 16, 2014, 10:09:02 pm
That isn't an official map, it was made by someone who enjoys the trails, other orgs just made use of it for a time.

Curious what Isn't/wasn't official about it.  It was posted on INCOG, and has the River Parks and Turkey Mountain logos on it.   Looks pretty darned official to me.  It might  have been wrong, but it was posted as an official map.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on December 16, 2014, 10:30:30 pm
Curious what Isn't/wasn't official about it.  It was posted on INCOG, and has the River Parks and Turkey Mountain logos on it.   Looks pretty darned official to me.  It might  have been wrong, but it was posted as an official map.

If it’s who I think created the map I believe he was an RPA employee at the time.  He’s no longer at RPA.  I agree INCOG and RPA posting it on their sites makes it appear as if it were an “official" map.

It never occurred to me since there were no section line fences out on this part of the area to geocache it, research land ownership, then write a letter to the owner to see if it was okay if I rode my bike or hiked their property.  I’ll remember to do that in the future.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 16, 2014, 11:07:25 pm
If it’s who I think created the map I believe he was an RPA employee at the time.  He’s no longer at RPA.  I agree INCOG and RPA posting it on their sites makes it appear as if it were an “official" map.

It never occurred to me since there were no section line fences out on this part of the area to geocache it, research land ownership, then write a letter to the owner to see if it was okay if I rode my bike or hiked their property.  I’ll remember to do that in the future.


Yeah...fencing or not, if it isn't your property, then you are always trespassing if haven't contacted the owner for permission.  No posting is required - it is assumed/defined under state law.  (Since at least 2007.)

Most don't bother to check.





Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on December 16, 2014, 11:15:56 pm
There are no real boundaries on this map at all. It's hard to say that it is inferring "official" boundaries when it also includes the YMCA and area on the other side of highway 75 in green.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cannon_fodder on December 18, 2014, 01:35:44 pm
People seem to be confused about the term "trespass," so lets clear that up:

1) The State of Oklahoma has a stated policy intended to encourage vacant land to be open for recreational purposes. The help facilitate this they have granted immunity to owners of such land from recreational use of such land (basically, if someone gets hurt and you didn't directly cause it - you should be good to go).  See 2 OS 16-71.1 et seq.   and also 76 OS 10.1

Quote
The purpose of this section is to encourage landowners to make land available to the public for outdoor recreational purposes by limiting their liability to persons entering upon and using such land and to third persons who may be damaged by the acts or omissions of persons going upon these lands.
76 OS 10.1(A)(1)

2) Oklahoma encourages/requires land owners to "post" no trespassing if you want to exclude people from your land (specifically applies to "fields," which we are talking about).  This goes way back to communal grazing days and cattle drives, but essentially has still stuck around:
Quote
For purposes of this section, "posted" means exhibiting signs to read as follows: "PROPERTY RESTRICTED"; "POSTED - KEEP OUT"; "KEEP OUT"; "NO TRESPASSING"; or similar signs which are displayed. Property that is fenced or not fenced must have such signs placed conspicuously and at all places where entry to the property is normally expected.
21 OS 1835

For fun, the law specifically states that the governors mansion doesn't have to post signs, but has no other exceptions. Subsequent amendments have muddied the "requirement" of posting, but the law still lists it as a requirement and then lists implied consent as an affirmative defense, but not being posted doesn't equal implied consent--- BUT, as it pertains to a field, if it isn't posted it appears one would be working on an affirmative defense for something that isn't a crime anyway?  Basically... it should be posted.

3) To be a trespasser you have to "willfully or maliciously enter" the field, posted with signs, without permission.  If you believe the field is a public park, you are by definition not trespassing.

4) Implied consent is a defense. Even if you knew it was not River Park land (as we now do) and even if we thought we were to be excluded (by the posting we previously discussed) - implied consent can exist by past action or custom. Obviously NEW signs can change old customs, but as it stands there is no posting and the ~40 year custom has been to allow access to this land.  Again, not trespassing.

5) BUT... if the premises is primarily devoted to farming, ranching or forestry, then you apparently don't need to have it posted (because of obvious hazards and waste issues that are possible). BUT, the provision still has defenses for implied consent etc.  12 OS 1835.2

SOOOOOO... it appears the YMCA, mountain bikers, hikers, and anyone else on the property we are discussing is not trespassing. If anything the law has worked exactly as intended by encouraging the owners to allow recreational use on the land.  However, if they now chose to exclude people they could do so (probably by fencing and definitely by posting signs). Nothing in past use creates a current right (and I don't think anyone has been arguing this).


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on December 18, 2014, 11:47:14 pm
People seem to be confused about the term "trespass," so lets clear that up:

1) The State of Oklahoma has a stated policy intended to encourage vacant land to be open for recreational purposes. The help facilitate this they have granted immunity to owners of such land from recreational use of such land (basically, if someone gets hurt and you didn't directly cause it - you should be good to go).  See 2 OS 16-71.1 et seq.   and also 76 OS 10.1
 76 OS 10.1(A)(1)


Title 2 is Oklahoma's agriculture statute. Here is the link to your first citation.

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=440639

 
Quote
B. 1. The purpose of the Oklahoma Limitation of Liability for Farming and Ranching Land Act is to encourage owners of farming and ranching lands to make such land available for recreational purposes by limiting their liability to persons entering or using the farm and ranch land and to third persons who may be damaged by the acts or omissions of persons entering upon or using these lands.

Your second citation 78 O.S 10.1 is entitled "Limitation on Liability of Persons Making Land Available to Public for Recreational Purposes Without Charge". Is this what the persons that own the land that might become the outlet mall were doing with their property? They were "provid[ing] the public with land for outdoor recreational purposes" as Sec. 10.1(B) prescribes.

See, http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=440637


Your third citation 21 O.S. Sec. 1835 is entitled "Trespass After Being Forbidden - Penalty - Entry Into Pecan Grove Without Prior Consent". I encourage everyone to read this statute., especially since it begins with the following: "Whoever shall willfully or maliciously enter the garden, yard, pasture or field of another after being expressly forbidden to do so or without permission by the owner or lawful occupant thereof when such property is posted shall be deemed guilty of trespass..."

See, http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=70144





Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cannon_fodder on December 19, 2014, 01:12:05 pm
Guido:

Yes, that is Oklahoma's ag statute covering fields and encouraging people to make their land available for recreational purposes.

Yes, the second statute also offers liability protection for persons making land available for recreational purposes without charge.

Yes, the owners of the land in question did make the land available for recreational purposes without charge... for ~40 years at least. They would likely be covered by protections in both title 2 and 76.

Yes, the third citation is the criminal trespass statute.

Yes, it does say that if it is posted and you are expressly forbidden you cannot enter the land.

Other than repeating everything that I said, was there a point that I missed? I feel like your post was meant to be confrontational and you oddly bold a section that I think is supposed to highlight the confrontation... but I can't really figure out what you're trying to get at. If you disagree with my basic analysis, below, let me know:

1) Oklahoma has a public policy encouraging recreational use of empty fields.
2) The field in question was utilized as a recreational area.
3) In order to be a trespass, the owner must exclude people from the land.
4) Nobody has been excluded from the space (no signs, fencing, or other steps were taken to advise people against continued use of the area as a recreational space in the last ~40 years).

Ergo, no trespass and rather an encouraged permissive recreational use.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cynical on December 19, 2014, 02:46:53 pm
I'm going to explain my nit-picky paragraph in my previous posting.

Cannon, I think you're missing the middle ground between "it's not trespass" and "it's criminal trespass." The missing middle ground is "it is trespass, but not criminal trespass."

The civil status as a trespasser has important consequences not dependent on criminal liability. The simple definition I gave above earlier in this discussion quoted the OUJI-CIV 17.1, which does not additionally require posting to make entry onto someone's property a "trespass." An important consequence of being a trespasser is that under 76 OS Sec. 80, the landowner owes no duty of care toward them except to refrain from injuring them through a willful, wanton, or intentional act. OUJI-CIV 11.4. (Ignoring attractive nuisances). No where does Oklahoma law require the landowner to post and give actual notice in order to find that someone is a trespasser on that land. That trespassers cannot be prosecuted under the criminal laws unless the additional element of posting is proved only shows an intention to not criminalize trespass in the absence of the additional element of posting. For example, a person who enters someone's land without he owners' permission could be liable for money damages. I've used that successfully a couple of times in condemnation actions in which the condemnor took possession after the owner had challenged the public necessity for the taking. The statute permitting a condemnor to immediately take possession after depositing the commissioners award with the court clerk has been judicially interpreted to apply only when the issue of the condemnor's right to condemn was not in issue. Both cases were settled before trial, but only after the trial court had ruled that an independent claim for trespass for an unlawful entry could be maintained in addition to the condemnation case. The tort of trespass, incidentally, can support a claim for punitive damages if the trespass was willful and intentional, even if there was a claim of right as long as the trespasser knew that his or her claim of right was being challenged.

The differing duties that landowners owe to trespassers and invitees goes a long way toward explaining the existence of the other statutes you cite. As you point out, where the landowner has affirmatively made the land available for recreational use by the public without charge, the landowner is exempted from duties of care toward recreational users regardless of whether they are invitees, trespassers, or otherwise. But 76 O.S. 10.1(C)(2) states that the non-liability rule applies whether the person entering the land is an invitee, licensee, trespasser, or otherwise. Therefore, contrary to your contention that recreational users of private lands made available for recreational use cannot be "trespassers," the statute states that they can be "trespassers." Of course, the immunity in Sec. 10.1 only restates the general rule as to trespassers and extends it to invitees.

Guido:

Yes, that is Oklahoma's ag statute covering fields and encouraging people to make their land available for recreational purposes.

Yes, the second statute also offers liability protection for persons making land available for recreational purposes without charge.

Yes, the owners of the land in question did make the land available for recreational purposes without charge... for ~40 years at least. They would likely be covered by protections in both title 2 and 76.

Yes, the third citation is the criminal trespass statute.

Yes, it does say that if it is posted and you are expressly forbidden you cannot enter the land.

Other than repeating everything that I said, was there a point that I missed? I feel like your post was meant to be confrontational and you oddly bold a section that I think is supposed to highlight the confrontation... but I can't really figure out what you're trying to get at. If you disagree with my basic analysis, below, let me know:

1) Oklahoma has a public policy encouraging recreational use of empty fields.
2) The field in question was utilized as a recreational area.
3) In order to be a trespass, the owner must exclude people from the land.
4) Nobody has been excluded from the space (no signs, fencing, or other steps were taken to advise people against continued use of the area as a recreational space in the last ~40 years).

Ergo, no trespass and rather an encouraged permissive recreational use.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cannon_fodder on December 19, 2014, 05:28:23 pm
Cynical,

Good argument!

I agree that a user of this lot *could* be a trespasser if they commit waste, illegal taking, etc. Similarly, even without posting a person would become a trespasser if they were affirmatively excluded by any means (not just posting, to wit: "get off my property!"). However, in the above discussion everyone discussed was merely a recreational user to whom none of the definitions of trespasser apply.

Yes, the statute cited (76 OS 10.1) is all inclusive and says "trespasser, or otherwise." But where a person doesn't otherwise meet the definition of trespasser the language seems to be a non sequitur. Perhaps there is some instance in which you are a recreational user upon land open to public use and have not been excluded or committed an impermissible taking... yet you are a trespasser?  But I can't think of it.

Additionally, no posting, no criminal trespass; and as you are painfully aware - no damages, no trespass in tort.

So it appears all the users of this property that we have discussed in this thread are not, in fact, trespassers.

(my 5 minute legal research really dragged me in on that one!)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on December 19, 2014, 06:35:36 pm
Guido:

Yes, that is Oklahoma's ag statute covering fields and encouraging people to make their land available for recreational purposes.

Yes, the second statute also offers liability protection for persons making land available for recreational purposes without charge.

Yes, the owners of the land in question did make the land available for recreational purposes without charge... for ~40 years at least. They would likely be covered by protections in both title 2 and 76.

Yes, the third citation is the criminal trespass statute.

Yes, it does say that if it is posted and you are expressly forbidden you cannot enter the land.

Other than repeating everything that I said, was there a point that I missed? I feel like your post was meant to be confrontational and you oddly bold a section that I think is supposed to highlight the confrontation... but I can't really figure out what you're trying to get at. If you disagree with my basic analysis, below, let me know:

1) Oklahoma has a public policy encouraging recreational use of empty fields.
2) The field in question was utilized as a recreational area.
3) In order to be a trespass, the owner must exclude people from the land.
4) Nobody has been excluded from the space (no signs, fencing, or other steps were taken to advise people against continued use of the area as a recreational space in the last ~40 years).

Ergo, no trespass and rather an encouraged permissive recreational use.

If I wanted to be confrontational, I would have told the readers in this forum that you cited law that is either not pertinent or flat misleading. Is that better?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Red Arrow on December 19, 2014, 08:27:06 pm
If I wanted to be confrontational, I would have told the readers in this forum that you cited law that is either not pertinent or flat misleading. Is that better?

Which just goes to show that whatever the subject, you can find experts on opposites sides.  Ain't America great?





Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cannon_fodder on December 21, 2014, 02:56:35 pm
No Guido, it isn't better. You STILL didn't make a coherent argument nor cite to anything contrary.  Ready... If you believe my family hiking in the area in question this morning was trespassing, then make your case.

Thus far your only argument has been "nah uh."


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: ZYX on January 27, 2015, 06:43:44 pm
http://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/tulsa-urban-wilderness-coalition-claims-outlet-mall-could-harm-turkey-mtn-wildlife-pollute-water (http://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/tulsa-urban-wilderness-coalition-claims-outlet-mall-could-harm-turkey-mtn-wildlife-pollute-water)

Please consider signing the petition.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/keep-turkey-mountain-green/ (http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/keep-turkey-mountain-green/)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 27, 2015, 06:51:53 pm
I heard that Kaiser was buying the site and gonna keep it the way it is...??   Anyone else hear that?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 27, 2015, 06:54:01 pm
Well, looking at the 2 news site, it doesn't sound like it....


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: In_Tulsa on January 27, 2015, 07:27:16 pm
I am in the process of getting a petition together for people who are in support of the outlet mall at this location. So far we have over 300 registered Tulsa county voter signatures. I do believe we will get several thousand. I'm happily surprised at how many people are for the outlet mall in this area.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: ZYX on January 27, 2015, 08:53:26 pm
With all due respect, why would anyone argue for an outlet mall in this location?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on January 27, 2015, 09:02:59 pm
With all due respect, why would anyone argue for an outlet mall in this location?

1. It's private property whose owner wants it to be commercially developed
2. It is at the intersection of two major highways
3. It is at the intersection of the probably the busiest two major "out of towner" highways
4. No major residential developments or parks within at least 1/4 mile


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: ZYX on January 27, 2015, 09:36:27 pm
The whole private property thing is fine as long as

1. No public money is used to help finance the mall.
2. 61st St/Elwood isn't widened (therefore encroaching upon Turkey Mountain).

As far as it being at the intersection of two major "out of towner" highways, who really just happens to see an outlet mall on the side of the road and then goes to shop there?

I'm perfectly fine with an outlet mall being built, but not in an area that degrades one of our most attractive assets. I still don't understand why someone, who is not affiliated with the project, would promote this location over another.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: In_Tulsa on January 28, 2015, 06:35:24 am
It's people who live and work in the area. It would add value and quality of life. This petition is so the city will consider giving incentives to build this outlet mall. I am all for turkey mountain. I think this will enhance turkey mountain not take from it.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: ZYX on January 28, 2015, 07:19:01 am
I don't live in the immediate area, but I and members of my family do work there, and I do a lot of shopping around there. I guess our opinions on what will add quality of life are different.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on January 28, 2015, 09:10:41 am
Sorry, I’m going to have to argue the point that quality of life to area residents will improve.

First, the city has no money set aside to improve or widen the stretch of Elwood/61st between 71st and Highway 75.  It is already over-burdened on weekends with people using Turkey Mountain. 

Second, ODOT has no plans to replace the 61st Street bridge for at least eight years.  Has the two lane choke-down at 81st improved the quality of life for west side residents and commuters?  How about the dysfunctional traffic light system on 71st at the north end of Tulsa Hills?

Third, Simon was required to provide a traffic count study for a similar development in a similar sized metro.  By their own estimate, the development would increase hourly traffic counts by 3600 cars.  Can anyone imagine how the intersection of 61st and Hwy 75 processing 60 cars per minute?  Plan on seeing traffic back ups from 61st to the I-44 interchange on Saturdays and Sundays.

Fourth, this development has limited visibility and problematic access from I-44.  There is a reason all three planned developments are slated to be on/near I-44: Interstates are where these are developed because it helps bring in money from people outside the area.  If someone is hustling through Tulsa on their way to Ohio and ready to take an hour break, they might stop, walk around and shop.  Make it difficult to get to your front door and they will keep on driving.  If this mall fails to attract significant shoppers from out of the area, it only scavenges sales tax from other areas of the city.  Highway 75 is not really an "out-of-towner" highway, it’s primarily a commuter corridor, much like the Creek Turnpike.

The last two weekends, I have seen cars parked approximately 200 yards into the neighborhood to the west of the main TM parking lot, atop Elwood Hill, and on the proposed property.  There is a larger demand for urban wilderness than we have infrastructure for at the moment.  Add in mall traffic and you can expect accidents and back ups. 

The proposed “buffer zone” on the north and east of this property line will do nothing to keep trash from blowing into the YMCA to the north and land to the east which will be preserved as wilderness.  In other areas where this has been tried, trash is a major issue.

http://mtairy.me/2013/02/06/upper-rock-creek-trash-photo-survey/

A lower impact development as was originally proposed (and what it is currently zoned for) in 2008 would create far less issues and would not be such a shock or nuisance to the surrounding properties.

There are better uses for this land which would still line the pockets of the current land owners.  One would be a second main trailhead with a handicapped-friendly wilderness trail, a community center, and additional parking for trail users. 

More and more, people cite outdoor fitness and recreation opportunities as very important quality of life issues, not shopping malls.  Tulsa has plenty of “upscale shopping” as it is.  Calling anything sold in an outlet mall “upscale” is misleading in the first place.

Be careful what you wish for, this development isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 28, 2015, 09:20:07 am
What Conan said....

Repeat daily until the Simon outlet insanity subsides!!



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: carltonplace on January 28, 2015, 10:04:05 am
It's people who live and work in the area. It would add value and quality of life. This petition is so the city will consider giving incentives to build this outlet mall. I am all for turkey mountain. I think this will enhance turkey mountain not take from it.

I can't belive anyone would think an outlet mall would improve their quality of life except maybe Mama June. Tulsa needs to stop settling for run of the mill thoughtless development for development's sake. We can do better, we can have a better city. We don't need to look like Owasso or Bixby or New Tampa.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: TeeDub on January 28, 2015, 10:48:48 am

Third, Simon was required to provide a traffic count study for a similar development in a similar sized metro.  By their own estimate, the development would increase hourly traffic counts by 3600 cars.  Can anyone imagine how the intersection of 61st and Hwy 75 processing 60 cars per minute?  Plan on seeing traffic back ups from 61st to the I-44 interchange on Saturdays and Sundays.


I think you mean 2.5 cars a minute or 150 cars an hour (maybe 5 cars per minute if you figure 12 hours of real traffic per day.)


Fourth, this development has limited visibility and problematic access from I-44.  There is a reason all three planned developments are slated to be on/near I-44: Interstates are where these are developed because it helps bring in money from people outside the area.  If someone is hustling through Tulsa on their way to Ohio and ready to take an hour break, they might stop, walk around and shop.  Make it difficult to get to your front door and they will keep on driving.  If this mall fails to attract significant shoppers from out of the area, it only scavenges sales tax from other areas of the city.  Highway 75 is not really an "out-of-towner" highway, it’s primarily a commuter corridor, much like the Creek Turnpike.


I think scavenging sales taxes from Glenpool, Sapulpa, Jenks and the surrounding communities would benefit Tulsa.   Are there ever really malls that get out-of-town/state traffic?



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on January 28, 2015, 11:55:35 am
I think you mean 2.5 cars a minute or 150 cars an hour (maybe 5 cars per minute if you figure 12 hours of real traffic per day.)

I think scavenging sales taxes from Glenpool, Sapulpa, Jenks and the surrounding communities would benefit Tulsa.   Are there ever really malls that get out-of-town/state traffic?



No, that would be about the present traffic count at off-peak hours, not what happens after mall traffic at this location is added in.  Add in additional traffic for all the new development south of this which is still coming.

There’s little doubt this will pull in revenue from the suburbs.  However, according to at least one consultant in the industry I’ve spoken with, the draw for an outlet mall in Tulsa reaches at least two hours which would cover all of NWA.  They are considered tourist destinations which is the draw for cities dependent on sales tax for operating revenue.  But that also points to the site at the Hard Rock being more convenient for those shoppers and offering more of a total tourist destination.  Granted, that does nothing to help the COT with added revenues, but there’s plenty of undeveloped sites the city could’ve gotten behind, like Horizon’s proposal near the I-44/244 intersection.

Placing an outlet mall within the city limits of larger cities as this proposes, is actually somewhat unusual in the industry.  For the most part, they are built in suburbs.  In Dallas, you have outlet malls at Grand Prairie, Grapevine, and Allen.  In Austin, they have one in Georgetown. Same with LA, Chicago, Atlanta, etc. ad nauseum.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on January 28, 2015, 12:20:40 pm
While Conan and my opinions generally don't jive on this subject, I do have to agree that I don't see a quality of life improvement for the surrounding areas. This is about increasing sales tax dollars in the Tulsa city limits. Rarely do any major retail centers improve anything for the neighbors except decrease loneliness.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cannon_fodder on February 05, 2015, 01:52:44 pm
While Conan and my opinions generally don't jive on this subject, I do have to agree that I don't see a quality of life improvement for the surrounding areas. This is about increasing sales tax dollars in the Tulsa city limits. Rarely do any major retail centers improve anything for the neighbors except decrease loneliness.

An outlet mall will be built in the next 18 months in the Tulsa metro. A. ONE. Singular.

That outlet mall will be one of three announced:
They all add jobs. They will all add the same shopping. No one walks to an outlet mall, so location in the metro isn't that important, so we have to try and differentiate...

1) Turkey Mountain Location -
Positives:
In the City of Tulsa (for sales tax revenue)
Private Land Transaction
Not next to a rich neighborhood (there are plenty of neighbors, we just don't have to care because most are public housing)
Just off the highway


Negatives:
Needs major road widening of 61st, access from Tulsa Hills (new road), major interchange work from Hwy 75 as well as a possible access road along 75. ($50 mil in public funds?)
Major site overhaul needed, total elevation change is massive
Not along an interstate highway
Land is improperly zoned
Will encroach on land currently utilized as public park land (not TAKING park land)
Not best use of land


2) Cherokee Property -
Positives:
Private Land Transaction
Not next to a rich neighborhood
Just off the highway
No rezoning required
Easy Dirt Work
Not next to public park
Synergy with Cherokee Casino
Area roads recently improved for traffic flow

Negatives:
NOT in Tulsa, so no tax revenue (it IS in Catoosa, not sovereign tribal land, so they will pay taxes)


3) East Tulsa  Mall (near I44/244 merger)
Positives:
Private Land Transactions
In Tulsa
No major roadwork needed
No rezoning required
No major earth works
No impact ion public parks
No nearby housing impact
Just off an interstate

Negatives:
Longer time frame
Less well-known developer (to me anyway)

- - -

One of those will be built. Only one. I don't give two damns about an outlet mall and will probably never go to it. I do care about quality of life, tax revenue, and best use of resources. I'd prefer the thing be in Tulsa, but other than wanting to get tax revenue, I can't think of a reason why the Turkey Mountain location makes sense. I don't want to sell out what is likely millions (tens of millions?) in subsidies to utilize a piece of property for an outlet mall when it could have better uses and it doesn't make sense for all the other reasons.

I can't rationalize that location.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on February 05, 2015, 09:55:30 pm
Note on #3, they are looking at around the eastern city limit. Possible issue if they slide a little bit right.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 05, 2015, 11:02:59 pm
Other issue with site #3 is it will take a lot of site work to remediate a flood plane.  It was also related to me today that it contains a lot of rock.  I can’t imagine it’s got more rock issues than site #1...talk about moving a mountain!


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 06, 2015, 02:43:05 pm
Simon submitted their application to INCOG yesterday.  It will go before the Planning Review Committee on Feb. 19 and before the TMAPC on March 18.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: ZYX on February 06, 2015, 02:47:51 pm
Are the plans publicly available yet?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 06, 2015, 03:02:13 pm
Are the plans publicly available yet?

I’m in the process of finding out.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: ZYX on February 06, 2015, 03:34:54 pm
Great, thanks.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: ZYX on February 08, 2015, 05:34:20 pm
Turkey Mountain was as busy as I've ever seen it today. The parking lot was overflowing and there were people parked up and down elwood, in the neighborhood across the street and along 61st street.

We really can't afford to lose any of the trails. They're getting crowded as it is.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 08, 2015, 08:03:46 pm
Turkey Mountain was as busy as I've ever seen it today. The parking lot was overflowing and there were people parked up and down elwood, in the neighborhood across the street and along 61st street.

We really can't afford to lose any of the trails. They're getting crowded as it is.

"I was out there, I was the guy on the mountain bike, you know on that rocky trail with a bunch of oak trees.”

Very busy day out there.  There’s a bigger demand for urban wilderness than we can serve as it is.  I spent most of my time riding the capillary trails off the blue trail then went further west.  Met cannon_fodder out there for his second MTB ride ever.  He’s a natural.

In order to miss the traffic congestion, I’ve taken to parking at my office on west 41st St. and riding up to the trailhead on weekends.  Gives you a nice three mile warm up.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: RecycleMichael on February 08, 2015, 08:12:17 pm
My family went out there today to go hiking. They said they had to park way down the street because of the crowds.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: shavethewhales on February 08, 2015, 10:13:53 pm
I knew it would be packed out so I didn't even try to go to that side today. I was running along the other side of the river and even that area was pretty busy today. It'll certainly get much worse for TM when the entire back portion becomes less desirable for biking/riding. It's already annoying to constantly have to stop and jump out of the way.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: SXSW on February 08, 2015, 11:38:57 pm
Turkey Mountain was as busy as I've ever seen it today. The parking lot was overflowing and there were people parked up and down elwood, in the neighborhood across the street and along 61st street.

We really can't afford to lose any of the trails. They're getting crowded as it is.

Agree about TM.  Chandler is a good alternative but not quite as convenient.  If it was expanded on the private land to the west along and south of Avery Dr it could be just as if not more popular than Turkey because it would be much larger with more varied terrain.  TCC West would make a natural south trailhead with its existing parking lots on 41st.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: ZYX on February 09, 2015, 12:19:27 am
The riverside trails were also pretty crowded today from what I saw. Speaking of, the bike/ped trails need to be expanded as far as possible as quickly as possible. Tulsans have proven that (at least when it's warm out) the trails will be used. If new development actually made an effort to integrate with the them, they could really become a viable means of practical transportation as well. Sort of a "bike highway."

As far as Turkey Mountain goes, although parking was impossible and the trails were busier than normal, I'm thrilled to see people being active and interacting with nature. We could all use a little more of that.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: ZYX on February 09, 2015, 12:23:15 am
Quote
In order to miss the traffic congestion, I’ve taken to parking at my office on west 41st St. and riding up to the trailhead on weekends.  Gives you a nice three mile warm up.

I'd do that if I had a mountain bike. Might have to find a friend here soon with an extra one to go riding with. A road bike isn't gonna take on TM too well.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 09, 2015, 08:36:26 am
I'd do that if I had a mountain bike. Might have to find a friend here soon with an extra one to go riding with. A road bike isn't gonna take on TM too well.


They sell those in stores.... I bet that at any given time, there are at least dozens for sale in various stores across the city...!!


Sorry....early Mon morning, and I just couldn't resist...


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 09, 2015, 08:42:38 am

They sell those in stores.... I bet that at any given time, there are at least dozens for sale in various stores across the city...!!


Sorry....early Mon morning, and I just couldn't resist...


Tom’s Bicycles at 71st & Riverside rents mountain bikes, current top line stuff.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 09, 2015, 09:50:46 am
Tom’s Bicycles at 71st & Riverside rents mountain bikes, current top line stuff.


Yeah...renting, too!  Never would have considered that, since I would only buy one if was gonna ride one, but that works too!!



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: SXSW on February 09, 2015, 11:52:20 am
REI may rent or at least demo bikes too, and where they're going is perfectly situated for both mountain bikes on Turkey and road bikes for the river trails.  Maybe someday kayaks in the river...


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 09, 2015, 12:36:28 pm
REI may rent or at least demo bikes too, and where they're going is perfectly situated for both mountain bikes on Turkey and road bikes for the river trails.  Maybe someday kayaks in the river...


Maybe instead of trying to make the river into something it isn't, we should play to the strengths.... sand kayaks.  Kinda like a snowmobile....or dune buggies - sand dune sports.  After every rain, features change and it becomes 'new' again.

Sand-yakkin'.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rdj on February 09, 2015, 02:17:25 pm
I should open a hover boat rental business on the river.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 09, 2015, 02:52:15 pm
I should open a hover boat rental business on the river.


That would be fun!  In fact, that is brilliant!!  I could see renting one sometime - let me know when you get it going!  Just gotta avoid the old oil well equipment in the river bed - it might snag the air bag!



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 09, 2015, 03:00:29 pm
Here’s a competing vision for the property which is an infinitely better use of it.  It would take advantage of the existing acreage which was cleared a couple of years ago with more parking including better horse trailer parking, new trailhead, visitor center, etc.

(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/b8a89aa8-5a3f-45c7-a7fd-573498e4a2cc_zps1t9w4mkg.jpg)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: SXSW on February 09, 2015, 04:11:39 pm
Here’s a competing vision for the property which is an infinitely better use of it.  It would take advantage of the existing acreage which was cleared a couple of years ago with more parking including better horse trailer parking, new trailhead, visitor center, etc.

(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/b8a89aa8-5a3f-45c7-a7fd-573498e4a2cc_zps1t9w4mkg.jpg)

What is that, an office building?  Much better indeed.  Any chance the city says no to a TIF here?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 09, 2015, 04:18:05 pm
What is that, an office building?  Much better indeed.  Any chance the city says no to a TIF here?

It’s a rough rendering, idea is a community/visitor center with some facilities.  With the rich history on and around Turkey Mountain it might be a cool place for west Tulsa history exhibits.

The councilors are being made aware this is not a popular development, so we will see what happens.  Simon submitted their application to INCOG (I would assume a PUD) but details are not posted on line as of yet.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on February 09, 2015, 04:42:44 pm
Here’s a competing vision for the property which is an infinitely better use of it.  It would take advantage of the existing acreage which was cleared a couple of years ago with more parking including better horse trailer parking, new trailhead, visitor center, etc.

(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/b8a89aa8-5a3f-45c7-a7fd-573498e4a2cc_zps1t9w4mkg.jpg)

Just pay the landowner about a million a year in rent for the next 50 years and you can do it.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on February 09, 2015, 05:30:04 pm
(http://digizell.com/images/logos_etc/logo_ouch.png)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 09, 2015, 07:54:23 pm
Just pay the landowner about a million a year in rent for the next 50 years and you can do it.

No need.  $3.2 mil was the listed asking price. 


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on February 09, 2015, 08:14:40 pm
I do not understand why Simon just doesn't follow the terrific business and development advice from people having zero ownership interest in the property but boatloads of self-interest in wanting Simon the hell away from TM.  ;D

Anyway, while I am a firm believer in private property rights and find this concerted effort to interfere by persons with zero direct skin in the game with a development that will yield tax receipts and jobs for Tulsans selfish, I also empathize with the cause. I am speaking to those few in here that understand the actual benefits from TM.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on February 09, 2015, 08:23:56 pm
I would like to know from cynical what the likelihood of an eminent domain lawsuit (or similar COA) would be if Simon is prohibited by government from developing their land as they want. Also, what the ballpark for attorneys fees and damages would be.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: ZYX on February 09, 2015, 09:12:42 pm
I do not understand why Simon just doesn't follow the terrific business and development advice from people having zero ownership interest in the property but boatloads of self-interest in wanting Simon the hell away from TM.  ;D

Anyway, while I am a firm believer in private property rights and find this concerted effort to interfere by persons with zero direct skin in the game with a development that will yield tax receipts and jobs for Tulsans selfish, I also empathize with the cause. I am speaking to those few in here that understand the actual benefits from TM.

It's not all self-interest. It is recognizing the asset that Turkey Mountain is to the people of Tulsa. I've still yet to speak face to face with one person who supports this development. If you've never been, I encourage you to check TM out some time. It's the most diverse crowd I've seen anywhere in Tulsa, not just a bunch of mountain bikers trying to make it their private training grounds.

I hope that the city will support the interests of the people of Tulsa over business interests. However, I don't know how far the city can legally go.

What, in your opinion, are the "actual benefits" of Turkey Mountain? I see it as one of the most important parts of the city. It separates us from other mid size cities, and gives people from out of town something to remember us by. To pave over one of Tulsa's most defining characteristics with anything, much less something as bland as an outlet mall, would be a gross mistake.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 09, 2015, 09:26:37 pm
Thank you for the tip of the hat to those who do appreciate what is up there.  Per INCOG’s web site, if the council does not approve a recommendation from TMAPC the applicant can take it to district court.   

The residents of West Highlands successfully challenged and got Lindsey to stand down from their plans to build apartments on Union between 61st & 71st.  It was approved by TMAPC and met proper zoning guidelines, I believe it even fit the comp plan and small area plan.  Residents considered that private property transaction to be a matter of their public interest.  

An outlet mall will get built, along with it the jobs and sales tax revenue.  I simply hope it won’t be on the west flank of Turkey Mountain.  I dread the trash and noise issues.  When I’m up there, I’m up there because I’m trying avoid such things.  

Trash from Tulsa Hills makes it a mile north.  Just think how it will be with a mall adjacent to the area:

(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/IMG_0390_zps5pqnecy3.jpg)

This photo is from the ridge to the east of this proposed development.  That horizon of trees in the distant background (it’s about 1/4 mile or so away) will be a horizon of outlet mall if this goes through.  You could not plan a more opposite development to wilderness than this.

(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/IMG_0388_zpsxjhk5ot5.jpg)

This area is attracting an unbelievable amount of people here every weekend.  We spoke to a couple who were over from Tahlequah riding with a friend.  They said if the mall gets built they will go to Bentonville instead.  They don’t mind the traffic and parking hassle so much now but figure all the extra mall traffic will make it unenjoyable.

TMUA is bringing in its fair share of tourism $$.  I know people from OKC who come here almost weekly to bike and/or run.  Lots of users from BA, Owasso, and Jenks which is bringing tax dollars to Tulsa when they dine, shop and fill up the car.  People have this idea that Urban Wilderness is sunk money and does not produce revenue.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

It’s estimated an outlet mall is worth $4 million a year in new sales tax revenue.  Simon or Horizon properties could do that in another area, Horizon has a plan of their own in an area of town which needs a shot in the arm much like west Tulsa got with Tulsa Hills.  The city gets it’s needed revenue and keeps an asset with immeasurable value.  

The problem for SW Tulsa if they get this is Woodland Hills-like development intensity without Woodland Hills style infrastructure to handle all the extra activity and traffic.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on February 09, 2015, 09:44:03 pm


What, in your opinion, are the "actual benefits" of Turkey Mountain? I see it as one of the most important parts of the city. It separates us from other mid size cities, and gives people from out of town something to remember us by. To pave over one of Tulsa's most defining characteristics with anything, much less something as bland as an outlet mall, would be a gross mistake.

I moved to Tulsa in 1996, and decided to settle here around 1998. At that time, TM was NEVER a factor I considered. It was not even in my top 10 as I do not recall knowing it existed. I am an outdoors person as much as the next. I run, cycle, camp, etc. But I also understand that I cannot do these things on private property. If it's that important, I would put my money where my mouth is. Have you? Have you ponied up the cash to stop this "gross mistake"?

As far as paving over things, I thought Simon was developing its own land. Who said anything about paving over TM? You know, the more I listen to the likes of you, the more inclined I am to discount this cause. It's like you don't give a damn about Simon's private property and ownership rights.

Let me ask you this, how would you feel if a bunch of complete strangers told you what you can/can't do with the land you own? People that may live no where close to your land?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on February 09, 2015, 09:46:32 pm
Thank you for the tip of the hat to those who do appreciate what is up there.  

You deserve it. You walk the walk. Now, about your coming out of the tree hugger closet.....  ;D


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: ZYX on February 09, 2015, 10:15:43 pm
I moved to Tulsa in 1996, and decided to settle here around 1998. At that time, TM was NEVER a factor I considered. It was not even in my top 10 as I do not recall knowing it existed. I am an outdoors person as much as the next. I run, cycle, camp, etc. But I also understand that I cannot do these things on private property. If it's that important, I would put my money where my mouth is. Have you? Have you ponied up the cash to stop this "gross mistake"?

As far as paving over things, I thought Simon was developing its own land. Who said anything about paving over TM? You know, the more I listen to the likes of you, the more inclined I am to discount this cause. It's like you don't give a damn about Simon's private property and ownership rights.

Let me ask you this, how would you feel if a bunch of complete strangers told you what you can/can't do with the land you own? People that may live no where close to your land?

I'm sorry if you took my post as hostile, it wasn't intended to be.  I was honestly curious as to what your opinion of the "actual benefits" of TM are, and you still haven't answered.

If I owned land land in such a sensitive area, I would hope that I'd be mindful of how development could affect use of the surrounding land. The infrastructure in this area isn't there to support a mall. It cannot be added without negatively impacting Turkey Mountain. I am a general supporter of private property rights, but I think that this is one case where the city should not allow such a development.

For the record, I've been on the privately owned part of Turkey Mountain exactly twice, and that is because trails that run through it are marked on the official Turkey Mountain maps. At the time, I was unaware that it was private property. I'm much more concerned with the road infrastructure/traffic/trash problems than with the outlet mall itself.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cynical on February 09, 2015, 11:56:14 pm
I can't speak for the owner, and the answer really depends on the owner's or lessee's intentions and resources. I also don't know the terms of the lease with Simon. Is it contingent on gaining approval of the project? If Simon took out a non-contingent 100 year lease, they would  have standing to challenge a denial of their project as a "taking." If the lease was contingent, the owner would have standing to bring the action. The plaintiff could challenge could appeal the denial of the proposal to district court or could file suit for damages for inverse (sometimes called "reverse") condemnation. The appeal might argue that the proposed development was consistent with the comprehensive plan, that the denial was based upon protecting recreational uses on parkland located a substantial distance from this property, and that the denial of the proposal was therefore arbitrary and capricious. A suit for inverse condemnation would need to allege that the city: (1) had the right of eminent domain; (2) had taken the property in question; and (3) had taken it for public use.

As I've said before, a land-use scheme that prevents the property owner from making any economic use of his property such as the "visitors' center" concept shown by Conan would be a "taking." If the denial was based on the city's desire to preserve Turkey Mountain Park and the adjacent lands as a public recreational asset as so many here demand, that would qualify as a taking for public use even if this specific parcel was no longer accessed by the public.

A third alternative would be to file an action in federal court under 42 USC Sec. 1982, which provides an action for damages whenever any person is deprived of life, liberty, or property by anyone acting under color of state law. This is the original Civil Rights Act that is used for a variety of purposes such as challenging illegal searches and seizures, deliberate indifference to medical treatment of inmates, prison overcrowding, etc. It has been used successfully to challenge oppressive land use planning schemes. The so-called "property rights" movement would extend this to any restrictions on land use in the public interest. I do not support that theory, but it's out there. 

As with any condemnation action, the amount of damages for inverse condemnation of real property is the "fair market value" of the property taken, meaning in condemnation cases the value of any property actually taken plus the difference in value of the property not actually taken before and after the taking. The value is set according to the property's highest and best use, but minus any benefits to the remaining property by reason of the taking.

There are a good many variables here, all of which can be disputed in a condemnation case. What is the value before the taking? What is the value after the taking? What is the highest and best use of the property, and how does that influence the value? And in an inverse condemnation action, was there a taking at all? All of these issues will take time to figure out, with someone paying for all of the time expended. If the plaintiff is Simon, they can probably afford to try these issues. Which leads to Guido's question about fees and expenses.

Unlike an ordinary eminent domain case, in an inverse condemnation case attorneys' fees and other expenses are always awarded to a prevailing property owner, even when the suit is settled without trial. If the landowner is paid damages, it also gets its fees and expenses paid. That can be very expensive. The fees have to be "reasonable," meaning that the time expended was reasonable and the hourly rate commensurate with the hourly rates commonly charged in the community, given the experience and expertise of the attorney.

The tree-hugger in me would like to see the area preserved for recreational use, but not by taking private property without just compensation. The Oklahoma and US Constitutions are quite explicit about that, and the case law is clear - you don't get to force a property owner to leave its land in "pristine wilderness" condition without paying for it. And subterfuges by public entities are very, very easy to prove.
 
I would like to know from cynical what the likelihood of an eminent domain lawsuit (or similar COA) would be if Simon is prohibited by government from developing their land as they want. Also, what the ballpark for attorneys fees and damages would be.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on February 10, 2015, 12:15:32 am

The tree-hugger in me would like to see the area preserved for recreational use, but not by taking private property without just compensation. The Oklahoma and US Constitutions are quite explicit about that, and the case law is clear - you don't get to force a property owner to leave its land in "pristine wilderness" condition without paying for it. And subterfuges by public entities are very, very easy to prove.
 

[emphasis added]. That has been the rub for me, and what some supporters of TM simply do not understand. How do you force someone to leave land they own alone without paying them? And if push comes to shove, who is prepared to write the check?

I hope folks read the entirety of cynical's post and take it seriously. I would encourage people involved in this dispute to pass it along to those also involved.

Good post.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: SXSW on February 10, 2015, 12:19:55 am
Quote
I hope that the city will support the interests of the people of Tulsa over business interests. However, I don't know how far the city can legally go.

Simon wants taxpayer money to fund infrastructure improvements so they can make a very difficult site work for their mall.  The city can deny that making the development unfeasible, at least in this location.

I still think the Cherokees win out in this whole thing.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 10, 2015, 07:14:48 am
Again, I’ve not read a post in this discussion that anyone suggest the city condemn the land.  In fact, everyone I’ve spoken to who does not want to see a mall built here also believes the sellers deserve just compensation for their speculative land investment if Simon goes elsewhere.

I’m also of the understanding that there is a lease in place while the developer does their due diligence and the project is either approved or denied in the planning process.  Once that period is complete, the developer closes on the property or walks away depending on the outcome of their due diligence.

If the deal does fall through, preservationists need to be prepared to purchase the property and take it out of play for further development. 


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: ZYX on February 10, 2015, 07:46:32 am
Thanks, cynical.

Again, I’ve not read a post in this discussion that anyone suggest the city condemn the land.  In fact, everyone I’ve spoken to who does not want to see a mall built here also believes the sellers deserve just compensation for their speculative land investment if Simon goes elsewhere.

I’m also of the understanding that there is a lease in place while the developer does their due diligence and the project is either approved or denied in the planning process.  Once that period is complete, the developer closes on the property or walks away depending on the outcome of their due diligence.

If the deal does fall through, preservationists need to be prepared to purchase the property and take it out of play for further development. 

I agree that the land owner should be compensated, and intended to put that in my last post, but didn't. Should the deal fall through, how would preservationists be able to purchase the property? Is there a fundraising effort for such a case? Hope that a donor purchases it? Neither is very reliable. I would support a small access fee for TM, but how long would that take to raise the needed money?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rdj on February 10, 2015, 08:27:24 am
At $3 a pop it would take about 1.1MM turns of the stile to cover the $3.2MM asking price for the dirt.  $5 per cuts the number to 640M to cover the nut.  That would be before loan or bond fees/interest, if RPA for example were to bond for it.  Assuming they have bond powers, I honestly don't know if they do.  I don't know the usage, but that is a lot of folks coming thru there.  It isn't unprecedented though, many parks have a usage or trail fee.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 10, 2015, 08:40:28 am
At $3 a pop it would take about 1.1MM turns of the stile to cover the $3.2MM asking price for the dirt.  $5 per cuts the number to 640M to cover the nut.  That would be before loan or bond fees/interest, if RPA for example were to bond for it.  Assuming they have bond powers, I honestly don't know if they do.  I don't know the usage, but that is a lot of folks coming thru there.  It isn't unprecedented though, many parks have a usage or trail fee.

That’s an interesting metric.  They do know 11,000 cars per week pass into the lower lot.  Even if you did it as a per car charge of $5 and assuming the fee did not knock down usage (judging by how many people show up every weekend now, I doubt a user fee would kill it that much) it would pay out in about 58 weeks.

However, that’s not a practical approach if the land were to be taken out of play for future development, assuming Simon walks away.  I’m rather surprised the owners of the property never made overtures to RPA or the Y about some sort of seller financing ever since their developer walked away in 2008 from the office park concept.  I’m probably even more confused as to why users of the trails back then didn’t coalesce and form a group to buy it once that went away.

A good number of runners, equestrians, hikers, and mountain bikers are professionals, not broke college kids looking for a freebie.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 10, 2015, 08:45:25 am

Let me ask you this, how would you feel if a bunch of complete strangers told you what you can/can't do with the land you own? People that may live no where close to your land?



Like zoning requirements....??

We are told every day in dozens of ways what we can and can't do with our land.  Your gated community is probably more oppressive than most about that kind of thing.  How do you feel about that?   I bet you can't keep a few chickens in the back yard as pets!  But I bet there is someone nearby with a yappin' dog that offends a lot of the neighbors!

Everyone pays homage to the 'king', no matter what country one lives in.

Turns out, I am getting ready to build a small house and found out due to some circumstances of its location, no building permits are required, so that will be good.  And they don't even tell me that I HAVE to build a McMansion!!  I can make a cozy little cottage home of several hundred square feet - no problem!!

Not quite sure how that is gonna play out with getting whatever inspections are required, but sure sounded like that is done on the most casual of basis' - except for the tax guy - he does a serious inspection, right down to granite countertops versus Formica, etc!  But gives an exemption to whatever part of the house is build as storm shelter safe room.  I told him I was planning on building the entire place as specified by FEMA shelter standards.  I don't think he was really amused....but hey, ya gotta try!



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 10, 2015, 09:02:32 am
[emphasis added]. That has been the rub for me, and what some supporters of TM simply do not understand. How do you force someone to leave land they own alone without paying them? And if push comes to shove, who is prepared to write the check?

I hope folks read the entirety of cynical's post and take it seriously. I would encourage people involved in this dispute to pass it along to those also involved.

Good post.


It is a good post.  As others have said, no one has said to just take without paying.  No one has stepped up to buy, though.  Maybe we are all waiting on Kaiser to do that...?


This drifts dangerously close to what the Sierra club, et. al. are all about with their efforts to protect wilderness, stopping clear-cut logging, etc.  Chaining oneself to a tree, or climbing into the thing to stop a guy with a chainsaw is stupid.  If there is any "strength of ones convictions" involved, band together (as they have done) and make effective use of the infrastructure already in place - corporate America!  As they haven't done yet.

Ducks Unlimited has been all about habitat preservation and restoration for over 100 years - and they put their money where their mouth is - they buy land and rebuild habitat.  Yes, it is in conjunction with other like minded entities, but they have been singularly effective.  Just look how many ducks and geese there are running around town in different places!  Like fleas on a dog!!  We need more hunters!

Circling back, almost around this barn;
If these entities are truly interested in preservation and restoration, then take the donations, buy stock in the companies like Weyerhauser, Georgia Pacific, whoever.  Buy the whole company if possible.  Get people like Kaiser, Warren Buffet, etc involved.  There are many philanthropists around just looking for a good place to park some money.  THEN run the thing as 'caretakers' of the environment AND the economy - a truly win,win for everyone!!

Same thing applies here for Turkey Mountain.  Buy it.   I would contribute a few bucks to the effort.


Notice in the pictures by Conan - the obligatory trash blowing in the wind.  Even up on top of that hill !!   If ya watch along the roadsides EVERYWHERE ya go in this state - it is just one big blowing trash dump!  Gotta be just so proud of all these Okies who throw their carp out wherever they happen to be!   Stay classy, Oklahoma!!





Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 10, 2015, 09:58:26 am

Notice in the pictures by Conan - the obligatory trash blowing in the wind.  Even up on top of that hill !!   If ya watch along the roadsides EVERYWHERE ya go in this state - it is just one big blowing trash dump!  Gotta be just so proud of all these Okies who throw their carp out wherever they happen to be!   Stay classy, Oklahoma!!


I left out the obligatory

(https://struckbyenlightning.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/crying-indian1.jpg)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on February 10, 2015, 10:29:41 am

Like zoning requirements....??

We are told every day in dozens of ways what we can and can't do with our land.  Your gated community is probably more oppressive than most about that kind of thing.  How do you feel about that?   I bet you can't keep a few chickens in the back yard as pets!  But I bet there is someone nearby with a yappin' dog that offends a lot of the neighbors!

Everyone pays homage to the 'king', no matter what country one lives in.

Turns out, I am getting ready to build a small house and found out due to some circumstances of its location, no building permits are required, so that will be good.  And they don't even tell me that I HAVE to build a McMansion!!  I can make a cozy little cottage home of several hundred square feet - no problem!!

Not quite sure how that is gonna play out with getting whatever inspections are required, but sure sounded like that is done on the most casual of basis' - except for the tax guy - he does a serious inspection, right down to granite countertops versus Formica, etc!  But gives an exemption to whatever part of the house is build as storm shelter safe room.  I told him I was planning on building the entire place as specified by FEMA shelter standards.  I don't think he was really amused....but hey, ya gotta try!


Would you PLEASE read cynical's post on this.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: patric on February 10, 2015, 11:16:36 am
how would you feel if a bunch of complete strangers told you what you can/can't do with the land you own? People that may live no where close to your land?

You mean like a foreign government seizing my land so they can build a pipeline to sell oil to China?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cynical on February 10, 2015, 11:18:24 am
There are many reasons why a landowner won't actively pursue sale of the property. We have a number of examples downtown of investor/owners sitting on property waiting on The Next Big Thing. The owner of the red building north of El Guapo's still sits on it, doing nothing but paying taxes, even after the Next Big Thing happened around him. And while it is true that no one has proposed that the city or county condemn the property, almost everyone in this conversation has proposed rejecting every use of the property that is inconsistent with recreational use without any meaningful vehicle for compensating the landowner for the useful value of its property.

Hence the city's (or the county's) involvement. Remember the three elements for an inverse condemnation:

1. An entity with the power of eminent domain;
2. "Takes" the property;
3. For public use.

The reason the mountain bikers can't take up a collection and hand $3.2 million to the owner and close a deal is that the mountain bikers, even if organized into a corporation, do not have the legal power to force the owner to sell. While everyone may have their price, no one can be forced to sell. The power of eminent domain is an attribute of sovereignty. As the sovereign, the state has that power and can, in certain cases defined by statute, delegate that power to other entities. So cities, counties, railroads, public utilities, etc, have the power by statute. Mountain biking clubs don't. Nor does the Sierra Club. Nor do I. The city or the county could clearly take this property for park purposes. The question here is can the government force the landowner to preserve undeveloped land in its present condition without paying compensation.

So those of us who lack the power of eminent domain sit in the stands and cheer for one side or the other without much of a way to directly influence the outcome. The protesters have taken the only route open to them - collective political action. That is as it should be, but with one caveat. The existence of political pressure to preserve this property as it is doesn't immunize the zoning authority from liability for essentially taking the property for public use without just compensation. The public officials involved in the decision are caught between the economic reality that the community as a whole won't support acquisition of the property for its fair market value, but the activists don't really care about that. Their goal is preservation. Compensation is at most an afterthought, as it has been in this discussion, when it should have always been a part of the equation.


That’s an interesting metric.  They do know 11,000 cars per week pass into the lower lot.  Even if you did it as a per car charge of $5 and assuming the fee did not knock down usage (judging by how many people show up every weekend now, I doubt a user fee would kill it that much) it would pay out in about 58 weeks.

However, that’s not a practical approach if the land were to be taken out of play for future development, assuming Simon walks away.  I’m rather surprised the owners of the property never made overtures to RPA or the Y about some sort of seller financing ever since their developer walked away in 2008 from the office park concept.  I’m probably even more confused as to why users of the trails back then didn’t coalesce and form a group to buy it once that went away.

A good number of runners, equestrians, hikers, and mountain bikers are professionals, not broke college kids looking for a freebie.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 10, 2015, 01:26:02 pm
Would you PLEASE read cynical's post on this.

I read it thoroughly.  It was and is a good post - covered a lot of ground.  I even commented on it a moment later - and I quote;

It is a good post.  As others have said, no one has said to just take without paying.  No one has stepped up to buy, though.  Maybe we are all waiting on Kaiser to do that...?



I was agreeing with you (at least in part)....and in that following note, reinforced what you were saying about buying the place rather than just moaning and groaning about it's potential use.  We gotta get you out of lawyering and into some sunshine and fresh air....catch up on making Vitamin D, and all that jazz.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 10, 2015, 01:44:43 pm
Zoning application is now online:

http://www.tmapc.org/Documents/PRC/02-19-15/Z-7296_Z-7296-SP-1.pdf

According to the application it does require re-zoning the CS, OL, and AG zoning presently on tracts on the property to CO.

Simon has included a few promising-looking things in trying to mitigate their presence:

-35’ lighting standards which will direct lighting away from the north and east properties and direct it to the ground (no mention of efforts to shield it from the west and south)

-Trails and trail access in their development buffer zone.

I’m not really sure why an outlet mall would ask for a max building height of 85’ that seems odd unless they are thinking of adding a hotel on sight.  Main sign along 75 is 90’ tall and 600 square feet.

They also will provide no screening to mitigate the sight lines from any angle other than to protect their customers from seeing the backs of their buildings.

Primary ingress/egress is a single point on 61st St.  They have an emergency ingress/egress point on the west side of the property.  The site plan shows a widened 61st St. bridge as well as road widening to their main property entrance.  There will be a “circulator” street in the project itself.  They show no improvements to Hwy 75, it would still be four lanes with the cloverleaf access at I-44 “as-is”.  There were rumors of a frontage road parallel to the west side of the property to somehow connect to I-44 which made no sense in the first place.

This traffic arrangement, without further explanation is insufficient for the volume of traffic they will create, IMO.  If they have no plans to improve the road and bridge (best intel says the city pays for the street, ODOT for the bridge and neither are on the drawing board at either entity any time soon) then you have major traffic headaches.

There is no mention in the application as to when the road and bridge would be widened and who would have to pay for that.  Their sanitary sewer plan  also shows needing a right of way from west to east on the Y property.  I wonder how the Y feels about that?

(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/Screen%20Shot%202015-02-10%20at%2012.45.43%20PM_zpslxo7l1dq.png)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on February 10, 2015, 05:26:39 pm
You mean like a foreign government seizing my land so they can build a pipeline to sell oil to China?

Yeah. Exactly like that. 


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Red Arrow on February 10, 2015, 05:39:55 pm
Primary ingress/egress is a single point on 61st St.  They have an emergency ingress/egress point on the west side of the property.

That should be enough to stop them without other issues.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 10, 2015, 06:45:24 pm
That should be enough to stop them without other issues.

It would appear not, otherwise, I think they would have submitted another way.  Other mall developments I’ve studied have multiple access points.  Heck even Woodland Hills is a good example with several points of ingress/egress, though all the extra pad development which came along in subsequent years makes it compare like apples to oranges.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Red Arrow on February 10, 2015, 07:37:52 pm
It would appear not, otherwise, I think they would have submitted another way.  Other mall developments I’ve studied have multiple access points.  Heck even Woodland Hills is a good example with several points of ingress/egress, though all the extra pad development which came along in subsequent years makes it compare like apples to oranges.

Big difference between "should" and "would".


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Red Arrow on February 10, 2015, 07:39:51 pm
I was thinking of offering a tax break to keep the area open.  But.... with a fair market value of $1980 for a bit over 52 acres and only $24 in tax (according to the Tulsa County Tax site), I don't think that would be a motivator.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on February 10, 2015, 07:43:35 pm
That should be enough to stop them without other issues.

The outlet mall at Anthem north of Phoenix is close size wise to what Simon is proposing and for many years had a single entrance/exit without issue since the early 90's. They recently, about 7 years ago added another entrance/exit after the development of the neighborhood to the west.

Simon proposed 350,000 sqft
Anthem 293,000 sqft.

http://www.craigrealtygroup.com/outlet-center/anthem-1003 (http://www.craigrealtygroup.com/outlet-center/anthem-1003)

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.873216,-112.1486941,710m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.873216,-112.1486941,710m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 10, 2015, 08:09:12 pm
I was thinking of offering a tax break to keep the area open.  But.... with a fair market value of $1980 for a bit over 52 acres and only $24 in tax (according to the Tulsa County Tax site), I don't think that would be a motivator.


That’s basically lunch for four at Bill & Ruth’s.   ;)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: ZYX on February 10, 2015, 09:34:14 pm
Wow, that parcel is bigger than I thought it was.

Having read the proposal, nothing really seems out of the ordinary. Although, I'm a bit confused as to what exactly the buffer zone (the area outside the red dashed line in the site plan that Conan posted above) will be. It seems as though they'll have to do too much leveling of the property to leave that area as is. "Buffer zone" is a very vague term and doesn't indicate much about what they plan to do.

I did not see in the application how they plan to deal with runoff. Considering the amount of soil that would be covered with asphalt, that is going to be a major issue. Where will all the water empty into?

Traffic in that area will be incredibly bad should this development be realized. Turning left off of highway 75 onto 61st street can already be challenging during peak hours as it is. It would become all but impossible with an outlet mall there. I believe Conan said earlier that the developers did a study that concluded that an outlet mall would add about 60 cars per minute to current traffic in the area. That cannot happen with the current infrastructure. Traffic on highway 75 would likely be impacted in both directions during peak shopping hours due to a high number of people exiting the highway and then having a hard time turning onto 61st street. I would expect a significant uptick in accidents.

When does this go before the city? I'm interested to see what TMAPC has to say.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: SXSW on February 10, 2015, 10:02:05 pm
I don't see how this can be feasible with the infrastructure improvements needed (and not presently funded) and the major site work required there not to mention the subsurface is all rock.  How much will the city be on the hook to make this work?  I want that disclosed.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rdj on February 11, 2015, 08:15:21 am
That’s basically lunch for four at Bill & Ruth’s.   ;)

No sushi though.  Just sandwiches, chips and water cups.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 11, 2015, 08:22:16 am


I did not see in the application how they plan to deal with runoff. Considering the amount of soil that would be covered with asphalt, that is going to be a major issue. Where will all the water empty into?



It's all headed to the Arkansas.  Maybe this is the justification needed for a dam...catch the Simon runoff and fill the river!  Except for that whole drought thing we are going through the last few years....




Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: carltonplace on February 11, 2015, 08:44:48 am

(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/Screen%20Shot%202015-02-10%20at%2012.45.43%20PM_zpslxo7l1dq.png)

My Gosh that is fugly.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on February 11, 2015, 09:05:10 am
(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/Screen%20Shot%202015-02-10%20at%2012.45.43%20PM_zpslxo7l1dq.png)

(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTdo88AaEvL4TOwOiTs5nJQT_gjPxOODoHR8Q2_hYOSLM24QWF6qA)


Kinda looks like Bacteria



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: TheArtist on February 11, 2015, 09:21:35 am
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTdo88AaEvL4TOwOiTs5nJQT_gjPxOODoHR8Q2_hYOSLM24QWF6qA)


Kinda looks like Bacteria



+1!


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 11, 2015, 09:31:09 am
My Gosh that is fugly.

But hey! Plenty of parking per Tulsa code!!!


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 11, 2015, 09:45:00 am

When does this go before the city? I'm interested to see what TMAPC has to say.


Planning Review Committee 2/19/15 (no public comment)
TMAPC hearing 3/18/15 (public comment accepted)

No idea when this would go to the council for final approval.  On projects of this magnitude I would suspect it takes longer to get through the planning process.  Note that the site plans are not overly detailed.  If you look at the plotted elevation points, looks like mean elevation of the development is around 770 MSL.  That means literally filling and stabilizing 50 to 55 vertical feet of fill on the east and NE corners of the development.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: ZYX on February 11, 2015, 04:42:34 pm
I don't see how this can be feasible with the infrastructure improvements needed (and not presently funded) and the major site work required there not to mention the subsurface is all rock.  How much will the city be on the hook to make this work?  I want that disclosed.

I really don't think there's any way that this can work without doing major road upgrades. That would include the bridge itself having to be widened. Why should the city/state pay for the necessary infrastructure improvements to support an unpopular development?

Planning Review Committee 2/19/15 (no public comment)
TMAPC hearing 3/18/15 (public comment accepted)

No idea when this would go to the council for final approval.  On projects of this magnitude I would suspect it takes longer to get through the planning process.  Note that the site plans are not overly detailed.  If you look at the plotted elevation points, looks like mean elevation of the development is around 770 MSL.  That means literally filling and stabilizing 50 to 55 vertical feet of fill on the east and NE corners of the development.



I noticed that the site plans are pretty basic. I'm sort of surprised that this would be considered a feasible site in the first place. 50 feet of leveling is pretty significant. Would the lot still have a gradual slope or would it have a steep drop off on the south and west ends? It worries me that they plan to start construction in the fall. I'd hate to see such a potentially impactful development get rushed through.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 11, 2015, 07:40:53 pm
I really don't think there's any way that this can work without doing major road upgrades. That would include the bridge itself having to be widened. Why should the city/state pay for the necessary infrastructure improvements to support an unpopular development?

I noticed that the site plans are pretty basic. I'm sort of surprised that this would be considered a feasible site in the first place. 50 feet of leveling is pretty significant. Would the lot still have a gradual slope or would it have a steep drop off on the south and west ends? It worries me that they plan to start construction in the fall. I'd hate to see such a potentially impactful development get rushed through.

Steep drop off.  Like retaining walls.  Nothing like lots and lots of concrete to compliment urban wilderness.  Just wait till the taggers show up.

Simon has lots and lots of money and resources.  But even for an organization like theirs, even if they worked around the clock, I’ve got it on very reliable word there is no way they could be even close to opening by fall of 2016.  There is still quite a bit of engineering work, site prep, and utility work.  The site work estimate is $20 to $25mm.  Essentially the bluff along Hwy 75 will be cut down by 20-30 feet along with the east part of the property needing 50-55 feet of fill in places.  IIRC, site prep on Tulsa Hills went on for at least a year or so.  Anyone else remember?

As well, the plans they have submitted thus far are only preliminary plans to get the corridor zoning approved.  No one at INCOG has seen anything close to final plans at this point.

That’s the “optics” in the race to sign tenants.  They get leases signed and promise a go date that keeps getting delayed.  Frankly, I’m learning far more about the underbelly of this type of business than I care to.  It’s a sleazy business.

Developers this big are not building communities, they exist to make money.  The only thing that matters once they have built is that the rent gets paid.

Of particular interest that west side residents need to be aware of is there is nothing to prevent this corridor re-zone from happening without any sort of plan to deal with the rural nature of the intersection of Hwy 75 and W. 61st.  Nothing has been addressed about the roadway from east of the development to 71st either.  This is a good issue to bring up at the TMAPC hearing on March 18.

It would be extremely careless for Simon to build without the bridge and road being widened PRIOR to that being mitigated.  ODOT realizes this is becoming a viable commercial corridor from Glenpool to I-44.  Even if they fast track widening of 75 and improving ramps, bridges, etc. there is no way to make this happen any quicker than 3-4 years.  As of today, here is ODOT’s eight year plan for their district 8 which is the Tulsa area:

http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/cwp-8-year-plan/cwp_ffy2015-ffy2022/pdfs/cwp_ffy2015-ffy2022_division8-map.pdf

Projects identified on this plan in the vicinity include bridge re-hab for 75 over 44 in 2016.  Imagine the cluster that would be trying to complete that with additional load from prospective shoppers at this development.

Here’s what is on the eight year plan for 75 between I-44 and the Creek Turnpike:

(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/Screen%20Shot%202015-02-11%20at%207.34.21%20PM_zps0zitnws2.png)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: ZYX on February 11, 2015, 08:02:57 pm
Steep drop off.  Like retaining walls.  Nothing like lots and lots of concrete to compliment urban wilderness.  Just wait till the taggers show up.

That's what I was afraid of. I can't think of much that would be less appropriate to be built in this area. Opposing this outlet mall is not being against private property rights, it's opposing development that neither fits with the intended use of the area nor can be supported by the available infrastructure. This is like someone proposing to build a 20 story glass and steel building with a 400 car parking garage in a neighborhood of one and two story brick homes.

Even if one takes doesn't take into account any potential recreational/environmental impacts of this development, it should be considered irresponsible and inappropriate based on infrastructure problems alone. To what extent does the city have power to deny Simon's proposal based on inadequate infrastructure?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: SXSW on February 11, 2015, 09:13:48 pm
If there's ever a time to rally against a project this is it.  Either that or hope the Cherokees are one step ahead of Simon.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 12, 2015, 09:49:02 pm
Tune in to Channel 2 at 10.  The Y has finally spoken up, or at least they did on the 6pm edition.  Apparently Simon reneged on some promises their advance team made that didn’t make it anywhere into he site plan.  That and the 70 foot retaining wall in clear view from their camp might have kind of pissed them off.

(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/Sweet%20Brown%20Meme_zpsz4u9as2p.jpg)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: ZYX on February 12, 2015, 11:00:24 pm
I saw this too late, hopefully they'll put it on their website.

A 70 ft retaining wall (likely) covered in graffiti, insanely bottlenecked traffic, trash and polluted water. What more could one want from an urban wilderness?

Reading the Tulsa World article from yesterday, I'm glad to see that the comments section is full of statements against this development. Hopefully city leaders will feel the pressure.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 13, 2015, 09:10:36 am

Growth for growth's sake.  No matter what.

Stay classy, Tulsa!



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on February 13, 2015, 06:15:58 pm


(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/Sweet%20Brown%20Meme_zpsz4u9as2p.jpg)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh7UgAprdpM[/youtube]


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 14, 2015, 09:11:40 am
The YMCA, this projects nearest neighbor has spoken.  Sounds as if Simon is ignoring them.

Someone needs to school me on how to embed Youtube links, no matter what I try, I can no longer imbed them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UhEGZyLIGc



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Hoss on February 14, 2015, 09:18:54 am
The YMCA, this projects nearest neighbor has spoken.  Sounds as if Simon is ignoring them.

Someone needs to school me on how to embed Youtube links, no matter what I try, I can no longer imbed them.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UhEGZyLIGc[/youtube]



FIFY...btw, click on the youtube icon in the rows above when you create a post.  However, with youtube, you need to remove the 's' in https for it to embed properly.  Stupid I know.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 14, 2015, 09:40:06 am
Thank you Hoss!  I used to be able to post the videos and wasn’t sure what had changed.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: patric on February 14, 2015, 10:43:41 am
 Like retaining walls.  Nothing like lots and lots of concrete to compliment urban wilderness.  Just wait till the taggers show up.

And taggers love nothing better than walls lit like billboards.    That way they get their message out 24/7.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: LandArchPoke on February 15, 2015, 07:17:17 pm
If there's ever a time to rally against a project this is it.  Either that or hope the Cherokees are one step ahead of Simon.

Simon has the ultimate say with outlet tenants. They control the market so much nationally they can essentially bully tenants into saying no to the other developments, and in the national retail community they have a reputation for doing this by saying if you want to locate in development A, B, and C then you have to sign a lease at development D too. So I have a bad feeling that unless the City does step up and says no to any public fund for this or that there's not enough out cry from citizens to block this, we will have an outlet mall here and not at the other 2 sites.

On another note, as much money as they are going to spend on grading... you'd think they just build structured parking and reduce the footprint of the development to limit cut/fill. They are trying to cram this site plan they use all over the country on relatively flat sites in the middle of farmland into a very unique site that has many challenges. If they just hired a landscape architecture or urban designer they could come up with something that might actually be worthy of building. They've also done NO public outreach. Kind of development 101 is to engage the public when you're dealing with a potentially controversial site.

The 1 point of entry/exit still blows my mind. As many developments as Simon has done they should know better by now. Points of access is extremely vital to the long-term viability of a retail development. Only way to solve this would be to build a second bridge to connect to Elwood, or to build access roads and extends the on/off ramps from 61st to allow traffic to exit/enter the site that way. However, that's all very expensive and doesn't take into account the need work to be done to 61st street alone (which others have mentioned).

The city needs to think long-term about this development too. How can this site be re-porposed if the outlet mall craze ends (like it has before). What other retailers would lease this site if there's only 1 way in and out. Let's use a local case study... RiverWalk. This is one of the biggest reasons it failed (outside of bad ownership). Trying to get anything outside a few bars/restaurants was impossible due to the lack of connectivity to major streets. There's examples of this type of poor planning and short-sightedness in retail development everywhere! So please let's not give public funding to something like this! If they want to develop this private property then they need to use 100% private funds to improve the infrastructure. If they can't afford that, then guess what... this isn't a viable development site and find one that has the infrastructure in place.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: SXSW on February 15, 2015, 11:46:36 pm
Quote
The city needs to think long-term about this development too. How can this site be re-porposed if the outlet mall craze ends (like it has before). What other retailers would lease this site if there's only 1 way in and out. Let's us a local case study... RiverWalk. This the one of the biggest reasons it failed (outside of bad ownership). Trying to get anything outside a few bars/restaurants was impossible due to the lack of connectivity to major streets. There's examples of this type of poor planning and short-sightedness in retail development everywhere! So please let's not give public funding to something like this! If they want to develop this private property then they need to use 100% private funds to improve the infrastructure. If they can't afford that, then guess what... this isn't a viable development site and find one that has the infrastructure in place.

Hopefully enough citizens speak up and the mayor/council doesn't give them a dime.  I'm not convinced they can even make it past TMAPC.

It's pretty amazing how many know about this project and are against it, likely because of social media.  If this was 15 years ago no one would hardly know and only a handful would care.  Now with Turkey Mtn one of the most popular outdoor spots in the city this is a major hot button issue.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 16, 2015, 09:55:59 am
Hopefully enough citizens speak
 up and the mayor/council doesn't give them a dime.  I'm not convinced they can even make it past TMAPC.

It's pretty amazing how many know about this project and are against it, likely because of social media.  If this was 15 years ago no one would hardly know and only a handful would care.  Now with Turkey Mtn one of the most popular outdoor spots in the city this is a major hot button issue.

The council is full aware how unpopular this project is thanks to people emailing in.  Jeanne Cue (District 2) needs to hear from everyone in her district who is opposed.  If she realizes this is not what people in her district want, she will vote against it and I suspect the council will follow. 

I’m amazed every weekend how many people I meet up at Turkey Mountain who are here for the day from OKC, Tahlequah, Okmulgee, Bartlesville, NW Arkansas.  My wife mentioned someone visiting family from Florida who heard Turkey Mountain. was a “must see and do.”  I’ve gotten in the habit of riding through the parking lot before or after we ride and seeing what plates are on people’s cars.  Saturday, I counted five tags from Texas, my wife caught a couple from Kansas.

Tulsa Urban Wilderness Coalition is starting a census project with RPA to learn more about who trail users are, where they come from, and how much money they spend in the area when they come to Turkey Mountain.  Should be interesting to see and hopefully open some eyes at the city about what a valuable asset this is.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 16, 2015, 09:58:33 am
Simon has the ultimate say with outlet tenants. They control the market so much nationally they can essentially bully tenants into saying no to the other developments, and in the national retail community they have a reputation for doing this by saying if you want to locate in development A, B, and C then you have to sign a lease at development D too. So I have a bad feeling that unless the City does step up and says no to any public fund for this or that there's not enough out cry from citizens to block this, we will have an outlet mall here and not at the other 2 sites.

On another note, as much money as they are going to spend on grading... you'd think they just build structured parking and reduce the footprint of the development to limit cut/fill. They are trying to cram this site plan they use all over the country on relatively flat sites in the middle of farmland into a very unique site that has many challenges. If they just hired a landscape architecture or urban designer they could come up with something that might actually be worthy of building. They've also done NO public outreach. Kind of development 101 is to engage the public when you're dealing with a potentially controversial site.

The 1 point of entry/exit still blows my mind. As many developments as Simon has done they should know better by now. Points of access is extremely vital to the long-term viability of a retail development. Only way to solve this would be to build a second bridge to connect to Elwood, or to build access roads and extends the on/off ramps from 61st to allow traffic to exit/enter the site that way. However, that's all very expensive and doesn't take into account the need work to be done to 61st street alone (which others have mentioned).

The city needs to think long-term about this development too. How can this site be re-porposed if the outlet mall craze ends (like it has before). What other retailers would lease this site if there's only 1 way in and out. Let's use a local case study... RiverWalk. This is one of the biggest reasons it failed (outside of bad ownership). Trying to get anything outside a few bars/restaurants was impossible due to the lack of connectivity to major streets. There's examples of this type of poor planning and short-sightedness in retail development everywhere! So please let's not give public funding to something like this! If they want to develop this private property then they need to use 100% private funds to improve the infrastructure. If they can't afford that, then guess what... this isn't a viable development site and find one that has the infrastructure in place.

Use the following search term in Google:

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=simon+property+group,+anti-trust&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

They’ve been sued in the past for anti-trust, no idea how successful those have been, but I’ve heard the exact same thing you have about telling a tenant if they want in a bigger market, they have to sign on in a smaller one they are developing as well.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AngieB on February 16, 2015, 10:06:02 am
The council is full aware how unpopular this project is thanks to people emailing in.  Jeanne Cue (District 2) needs to hear from everyone in her district who is opposed.  If she realizes this is not what people in her district want, she will vote against it and I suspect the council will follow. 



I have posted my opposition on our nextdoor.com neighborhood and I'm not finding many in agreement with me. I'm afraid most of the westside is for any development, anywhere, at any cost or risk. That's what happens when an area is so neglected. Desperation. Development for development's sake. :/


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: ZYX on February 16, 2015, 10:07:24 am
The council is full aware how unpopular this project is thanks to people emailing in.  Jeanne Cue (District 2) needs to hear from everyone in her district who is opposed.  If she realizes this is not what people in her district want, she will vote against it and I suspect the council will follow. 

I’m amazed every weekend how many people I meet up at Turkey Mountain who are here for the day from OKC, Tahlequah, Okmulgee, Bartlesville, NW Arkansas.  My wife mentioned someone visiting family from Florida who heard Turkey Mountain. was a “must see and do.”  I’ve gotten in the habit of riding through the parking lot before or after we ride and seeing what plates are on people’s cars.  Saturday, I counted five tags from Texas, my wife caught a couple from Kansas.

Tulsa Urban Wilderness Coalition is starting a census project with RPA to learn more about who trail users are, where they come from, and how much money they spend in the area when they come to Turkey Mountain.  Should be interesting to see and hopefully open some eyes at the city about what a valuable asset this is.



I emailed Jeannie Cue, and she was very kind and replied even though I don't live in her district. She expressed doubt that the development would happen without widening 61st. The online petition has 7,200 signatures now, and I know for a fact that there are more who are opposed who have not signed.

I agree with LandArchPoke that given the unpopular nature of the development, the city should not be providing money to help make this development successful. You can't claim that the public should have no say in what you build on your property, and then say that the public should provide money to make your development succesful. The city should deny their TIF request.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 16, 2015, 10:55:04 am
If history has shown us anything in this town, county, and state, it is to follow the money.  No amount of signatures or discussions or town halls will overcome the money.  Next election - vote out the ones who paved the way.  Except that doesn't happen either - as demonstrated so graphically by the last election.  Give up.  It is too late.  And we will get to pay for the street improvements.




Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 16, 2015, 12:29:10 pm
Quote from: AngieBrumley link=topic=20701.msg295056#msg295056 date=1424102 ;D762
I have posted my opposition on our nextdoor.com neighborhood and I'm not finding many in agreement with me. I'm afraid most of the westside is for any development, anywhere, at any cost or risk. That's what happens when an area is so neglected. Desperation. Development for development's sake. :/

I saw the comment from one resident along the lines of:

“Once we prove to the city there’s all this development, they will improve the infrastructure.”  ::)

Tulsa has a bad history of not “improving the infrastructure” until 10-20 years after it is needed.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 16, 2015, 01:39:35 pm
I saw the comment from one resident along the lines of:

“Once we prove to the city there’s all this development, they will improve the infrastructure.”  ::)

Tulsa has a bad history of not “improving the infrastructure” until 10-20 years after it is needed.


I-44 as classic case in point....they just finished up building the road through town for the traffic of 1987.




Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on February 16, 2015, 01:57:20 pm
I have posted my opposition on our nextdoor.com neighborhood and I'm not finding many in agreement with me. I'm afraid most of the westside is for any development, anywhere, at any cost or risk. That's what happens when an area is so neglected. Desperation. Development for development's sake. :/

I wonder how much of that feeling is a result of what is already in place there. Maybe people think that this is "just one more project" and will not be disruptive.

As for me, most know I have been on both sides of this issue. I want the potential economic growth and private property rights upheld, but I am also not a fan of making it even harder to get to downtown with all the traffic mess and construction. Right now, I am preferring the incentive in having to travel to Branson for their outlet mall. Selfish, I know.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AngieB on February 16, 2015, 02:04:07 pm
I wonder how much of that feeling is a result of what is already in place there. Maybe people think that this is "just one more project" and will not be disruptive.

As for me, most know I have been on both sides of this issue. I want the potential economic growth and private property rights upheld, but I am also not a fan of making it even harder to get to downtown with all the traffic mess and construction. Right now, I am preferring the incentive in having to travel to Branson for their outlet mall. Selfish, I know.



I think many Westsiders think all the jobs will be for us. Our property values will increase. It will bring in more business. The Westside will get tax dollars from it. <sigh> If only that were all true...  :(


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AquaMan on February 16, 2015, 04:12:56 pm
Plus, how many Westsiders are big TM users? From my experience they are working class who have little time for biking, hiking, and exploring. They seem to have little compassion for spandex unless its as undergarments.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AngieB on February 16, 2015, 04:14:53 pm
Plus, how many Westsiders are big TM users? From my experience they are working class who have little time for biking, hiking, and exploring. They seem to have little compassion for spandex unless its as undergarments.

Thanks for the stereotype!  ::)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 16, 2015, 04:32:39 pm
Plus, how many Westsiders are big TM users? From my experience they are working class who have little time for biking, hiking, and exploring. They seem to have little compassion for spandex unless its as undergarments.

You’d be amazed at how cyclists and runners are outnumbered by families walking around with their children up there.  People come from all over including the west side.  We had quite a few 74107, 127, 131, and 132 we had register for the clean up day a few weeks ago.  Many on the west side live there due to it’s more rural feel...or at least how it used to feel in that particular quadrant.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on February 16, 2015, 05:38:09 pm
Plus, how many Westsiders are big TM users? From my experience they are working class who have little time for biking, hiking, and exploring. They seem to have little compassion for spandex unless its as undergarments.
Well played.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 16, 2015, 09:11:38 pm
Well played.

Come on, you know you love your Spandex.  Especially with sequins.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on February 16, 2015, 09:44:03 pm
(http://www.tulsapeople.com/Blogs/Editors-Notes/July-2010/Biker-Fox/BikerFox.jpg)

Guido's hero. ;)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on February 16, 2015, 09:53:16 pm
(http://www.tulsapeople.com/Blogs/Editors-Notes/July-2010/Biker-Fox/BikerFox.jpg)

Guido's hero. ;)

No, pretty sure that IS guido


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Hoss on February 16, 2015, 09:58:48 pm
No, pretty sure that IS guido

(http://weknowgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/stephen-colbert-popcorn-gif1.gif)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 16, 2015, 10:00:31 pm
(http://weknowgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/stephen-colbert-popcorn-gif1.gif)


You are scaring me....



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Ibanez on February 16, 2015, 10:11:10 pm
My eyes!!!


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on February 16, 2015, 10:14:24 pm
Jorts!

(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.urlesque.com/media/2008/11/bikerfox3.jpg)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on February 16, 2015, 10:20:19 pm
Jorts!

(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.urlesque.com/media/2008/11/bikerfox3.jpg)

Where's that dam Slurpee spoon straw so I can gouge my eyes out?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on February 16, 2015, 10:20:28 pm
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bl6sumXCAAE-KFR.jpg:large)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on February 16, 2015, 10:27:42 pm
To the point, BikerFox lives in South Tulsa/Bixby.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on February 16, 2015, 10:28:45 pm
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bl6sumXCAAE-KFR.jpg:large)

That chicken is desperately trying to scream for help. Isn't there a law in Oklahoma that says you can't choke your chicken while on a bike dressed in spandex?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on February 16, 2015, 10:33:57 pm
That chicken is desperately trying to scream for help. Isn't there a law in Oklahoma that says you can't choke your chicken while on a bike dressed in spandex?

So long as it's not a gay chicken, Oklahoma is just fine.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 16, 2015, 10:58:26 pm
So long as it's not a gay chicken, Oklahoma is just fine.

Wait, let’s call Sally Kern and clarify.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Hoss on February 16, 2015, 11:17:08 pm
That chicken is desperately trying to scream for help. Isn't there a law in Oklahoma that says you can't choke your chicken while on a bike dressed in spandex?

Make sure Paul Tay knows this...


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 16, 2015, 11:29:57 pm
Make sure Paul Tay knows this...

His penis er chicken is always behind him on the bike.  At least when he’s riding around as Santa.  

Dear God, did I really just channel that?  Where’s that Slurpee straw???


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AquaMan on February 17, 2015, 08:49:39 am
Thanks for the stereotype!  ::)

Sometimes folks use the word stereotype to hide the truth. Oakland is industrial. West Tulsa is too. In fact most of the fringes of any city are where the real physical work is occurring.  No negative judgement inferred. Driving in from OKC is visual confirmation. Working west of the river is physical confirmation. The shame is that those fringe areas have the most dramatic and enjoyable topography and the least restrictive zoning.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AquaMan on February 17, 2015, 09:18:45 am
Angie, let me make these notes. I work over there with a load of Westies. Not far from Conan. I deliver west side school children to the schools, I navigate the back roads and highways. I love the area and its small town feel. It is spread out from the refineries and Chandler Hill on one end, TM and Tulsa Hills on its south and West to the Turnpike.  It has some upscale neighborhoods and rural gentry. You can keep a horse, chickens, goats and a donkey in neighborhoods over by Redfork yet live the suburban life in hill top Berryhill next to TCC.  It is my opinion that its core is (proudly) blue collar.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 17, 2015, 09:39:19 am
Thanks for the stereotype!  ::)


You should hear the stereotypes that circulated about Sand Springs when I was a kid....

I spent a lot of time in younger days in Redfork, and west along the line... I liked it a lot and always felt like I fit in better there than most areas of town (never really felt comfortable in Maple Ridge, for example...still don't, even though have good friends that live there.)  Had occasion to work back over in Redfork for a while a few years ago....still felt more comfortable.  There have been some good companies grow out west in the last 25 years...could use more!  I suspect a bunch of new minimum wage fast-food type jobs aren't gonna help all that much (Simon Malls).





Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AquaMan on February 17, 2015, 10:00:18 am
Yet, you can see why Simon is enthused about that location. The folks who populate TM are likely not Westies. West Tulsa will shop Tulsa Hillls but aren't as comfortable there as in an Outlet Mall. I don't like the idea but the demographics are enticing to them.

That land has been available for over 30 years. In true Tulsa fashion, no one wanted it because of adjacent subsidized housing, and low demographic potential. Now someone attempts to capitalize on those two characteristics and we're stunned?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AngieB on February 17, 2015, 11:12:48 am
Yet, you can see why Simon is enthused about that location. The folks who populate TM are likely not Westies. West Tulsa will shop Tulsa Hillls but aren't as comfortable there as in an Outlet Mall. I don't like the idea but the demographics are enticing to them.

That land has been available for over 30 years. In true Tulsa fashion, no one wanted it because of adjacent subsidized housing, and low demographic potential. Now someone attempts to capitalize on those two characteristics and we're stunned?

OMG. I really don't have any idea how to respond to this. We're all just poor white trash from the westside who aren't interested in fitness or outdoor activity? We'll be more comfortable shopping the outlet mall than Tulsa Hills? W  T  F   does that even mean? Are Target and Belk too fancy for us?  ???


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 17, 2015, 11:35:41 am
Yet, you can see why Simon is enthused about that location. The folks who populate TM are likely not Westies. West Tulsa will shop Tulsa Hillls but aren't as comfortable there as in an Outlet Mall. I don't like the idea but the demographics are enticing to them.

That land has been available for over 30 years. In true Tulsa fashion, no one wanted it because of adjacent subsidized housing, and low demographic potential. Now someone attempts to capitalize on those two characteristics and we're stunned?

If “Westies” were generally po’ folk, Turkey Mountain is the cheapest form of recreation on the west side.

Simon doesn’t care about the local demographic.  Outlet malls depend on 50%+ of their revenue coming from outside the local area so that it is a destination and people will feel compelled to spend more in one trip rather than it being a simple 15 minute jaunt to the store and back.

Not my speculation- this is the industry in it’s own words.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 17, 2015, 12:05:58 pm
OMG. I really don't have any idea how to respond to this. We're all just poor white trash from the westside who aren't interested in fitness or outdoor activity? We'll be more comfortable shopping the outlet mall than Tulsa Hills? W  T  F   does that even mean? Are Target and Belk too fancy for us?  ???


Give 'em hell, girl!!


Not sure Target and Belk are that great an example for "fancy", though...  Not sure what fancy and upscale really is in this area, but I know it ain't those or Macy's and the like.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AngieB on February 17, 2015, 12:12:16 pm

Give 'em hell, girl!!


Not sure Target and Belk are that great an example for "fancy", though...  Not sure what fancy and upscale really is in this area, but I know it ain't those or Macy's and the like.



 :) :)

That's the point!



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on February 17, 2015, 12:23:45 pm
Aqua needs to check the price tag on the houses going up all around Tulsa Hills, they start at about $350k.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AquaMan on February 17, 2015, 01:31:05 pm
Geez. Take a breath and a sip of something like tea. It calms you, enervates your grey matter and even helps lose that West Tulsa belly fat!

Tulsa Hills is not "West" Tulsa. South West would be accurate. To include them as West would be analogous to including northwest areas like Gilcrease Hills and Osage Casino as West Tulsa. Yes, people from all over Tulsa shop TH but it isn't jammed with trucks, horse trailers and welding rigs.

Going north of 71st to 23rd street and west of the river to the turnpike gates is west. Throw in the little pocket north of 23rd that includes the OSU medical college and West Bank.  This isn't a real upper demographic area. There are no Utica Square shopping centers, no Whole Foods and no Targets. Not even a WalMart till you get to Sand Springs! So, any upscale, young, healthy oriented consumers are likely crossing the river or heading down 71st from 75 to fill their needs. Not at Family/Warehouse Mkt. Not Goodwill. Not Arnold's Hamburgers.

I am familiar with how Outlet Malls are located, built, fail and then keep popping up. One of their criteria is truck registrations. That totally misled them with their location in Broken Arrow. They always figure that traffic will come from outside their region but their failure rate argues against that. I suspect they make money attracting investors, grabbing up tax incentives, building these things then moving on.

Angela, white trash is all over Tulsa, West Tulsa doesn't have a lock on that but they have their share. For once just step outside yourselves and look at this from a developers viewpoint. They don't live here. They invest here and we hold that process in reverence. Me personally, I think it sucks to have that type of development near a popular and growing outdoor recreation area. I didn't like it when huge areas of riverfront were defiled by cement companies, trucking companies, sand mining, injection wells and even strip mining over by Chandler Park. But no one went ballistic when those privately owned lands were abused. That is the nature of private ownership rights and created jobs.

Now it gets close to southern civilization and its different? I have to agree with Guido on this. Buy the land, forbid tax incentives for them or get used to the idea that not everyone gives a flip about trails, bikes, running, exploring, and beauty.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 17, 2015, 01:42:59 pm


Angela, white trash is all over Tulsa, West Tulsa doesn't have a lock on that but they have their share. For once just step outside yourselves and look at this from a developers viewpoint. They don't live here. They invest here and we hold that process in reverence. Me personally, I think it sucks to have that type of development near a popular and growing outdoor recreation area. I didn't like it when huge areas of riverfront were defiled by cement companies, trucking companies, sand mining, injection wells and even strip mining over by Chandler Park. But no one went ballistic when those privately owned lands were abused. That is the nature of private ownership rights and created jobs.

Now it gets close to southern civilization and its different? I have to agree with Guido on this. Buy the land, forbid tax incentives for them or get used to the idea that not everyone gives a flip about trails, bikes, running, exploring, and beauty.



Truth about that - trash all over Tulsa and suburbs - there is a small pocket of white trash I know of in Broken Arrow that spawned from gated entitlement communities in Tulsa, so previous generation performance is no indicator, either.

And just being in that whole area of Redfork and surrounds doesn't mean it is poor "white trash".... mostly it is poor, but by no means trash.

The southwest Tulsans are getting all in an uproar kinda like the 96th street south Tulsans did when DOT wanted to put the free bypass in and got all whiny about it even though they knew for decades that was where it was gonna be (what became the Creek Turnpike).



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AngieB on February 17, 2015, 02:12:10 pm
I give up.  :-\


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 17, 2015, 02:27:29 pm
I give up.  :-\


NO!!  Don't give up!!!  Hang in there!  You are doing great!  There's nothing wrong with west Tulsa that isn't at least as wrong (or worse) anywhere else in town. 



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on February 17, 2015, 02:34:52 pm
I give up.  :-\

Wait until he quadruples down before re-engaging.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on February 17, 2015, 02:36:05 pm

Give 'em hell, girl!!


Not sure Target and Belk are that great an example for "fancy", though...  Not sure what fancy and upscale really is in this area, but I know it ain't those or Macy's and the like.



You are really off recently.

(http://www.cnvrgnc.com/storage/Missing%20the%20Point.png?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1360679934169)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 17, 2015, 03:31:26 pm
You are really off recently.

(http://www.cnvrgnc.com/storage/Missing%20the%20Point.png?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1360679934169)


You think Target, Belk, and Macy's are upscale??



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AquaMan on February 17, 2015, 04:47:33 pm
I'm a bit confused with some views here. Do you all think that because Outlet Malls has name brand retailers that they are truly upscale? Some people on here have correctly noted that the tenants themselves are not the same quality as their namesakes stores. They use the names but sell products of less quality. Outlet Malls doesn't attract the affluent crowds you might suppose. They do attract customers who don't know the difference. Like the residents of the subsidized housing right across the bridge. Or South Haven, or Garden City. But Jenks? Those folks with the $350,000 homes?

The idea that out of area customers are going to bypass all the suburban centers to get to OM doesn't ring true to me. Unless they intend to sight/see  around TM. It should easily fail as a center and end up an eyesore just like the RiverWalk, but who in local government is going to announce to the rest of the development community that Tulsa is hostile to their interests?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Breadburner on February 17, 2015, 05:34:16 pm
Hopefully someone steps in and buys this property and leaves it like it is.......If thats possible.....


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: ZYX on February 17, 2015, 07:20:00 pm
I'm a bit confused with some views here. Do you all think that because Outlet Malls has name brand retailers that they are truly upscale? Some people on here have correctly noted that the tenants themselves are not the same quality as their namesakes stores. They use the names but sell products of less quality. Outlet Malls doesn't attract the affluent crowds you might suppose. They do attract customers who don't know the difference. Like the residents of the subsidized housing right across the bridge. Or South Haven, or Garden City. But Jenks? Those folks with the $350,000 homes?

The idea that out of area customers are going to bypass all the suburban centers to get to OM doesn't ring true to me. Unless they intend to sight/see  around TM. It should easily fail as a center and end up an eyesore just like the RiverWalk, but who in local government is going to announce to the rest of the development community that Tulsa is hostile to their interests?

I would guess that people living in $350,000 houses are some of the people that would be most excited about an outlet mall. Also, people will definitely bypass other shopping centers to get to this one. I would expect that the mall would be profitable, at least in the short term. However, the outlet craze probably won't last forever, and then what happens with this collection of huge concrete boxes?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on February 17, 2015, 08:09:06 pm
Hopefully someone steps in and buys this property and leaves it like it is.......If thats possible.....

Which brings us back to the whole owner not selling thing.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 17, 2015, 08:53:32 pm
Which brings us back to the whole owner not selling thing.

Owner hasn’t taken down the for sale sign.  Simon hasn’t bought the property.  Why would that be?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on February 17, 2015, 09:19:32 pm
Owner hasn’t taken down the for sale sign.  Simon hasn’t bought the property.  Why would that be?

At least two previous entities tried, including the Y, and he refused because he wanted to sell to retail.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Breadburner on February 17, 2015, 09:35:19 pm
Maybe he's trying for a long term ground lease.....


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: SXSW on February 17, 2015, 09:48:28 pm
At least two previous entities tried, including the Y, and he refused because he wanted to sell to retail.

Is the owner local?  I had heard about the Y trying to buy the property it's too bad that it isn't all controlled by either the Y or GKFF like the other parcels abutting Turkey Mtn Urban Wilderness.  If the outlet mall is deemed unviable I wonder if the owner would be interested in other options besides retail.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 17, 2015, 10:07:29 pm
Is the owner local?  I had heard about the Y trying to buy the property it's too bad that it isn't all controlled by either the Y or GKFF like the other parcels abutting Turkey Mtn Urban Wilderness.  If the outlet mall is deemed unviable I wonder if the owner would be interested in other options besides retail.

The partnership is quite local.  Well known in Tulsa real estate circles.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 17, 2015, 10:16:16 pm
At least two previous entities tried, including the Y, and he refused because he wanted to sell to retail.

Has nothing to do with wanting to sell to retail. It’s more like wanting a “retail” price for rural land.

Asking price is $3.2 mil according to the last marketing materials available for it on loopnet.  That’s in the range of $52K or so per acre for a parcel which has many challenges to development. 

The problem is, previous suitors thought that was a ridiculous price for the land.  Finally someone figured it was worth it to them.  Maybe we will finally realize that the value of green space is worth more than craptastic parking lots, 70 foot tall retaining walls, and 80 stores of off-shore made dreck and we finally pay the freight to preserve it.

I don’t fault the land owners so much for seizing a forward-looking opportunity and buying it as I do the lack of vision of people who could/should have bought this years ago for quite a bit less.





Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on February 18, 2015, 01:55:10 am


I don’t fault the land owners so much for seizing a forward-looking opportunity and buying it as I do the lack of vision of people who could/should have bought this years ago for quite a bit less.


Here ya go.  :P

(http://st.houzz.com/simgs/50210c8201c2320d_4-5491/traditional-wall-mirrors.jpg)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rebound on February 18, 2015, 09:48:57 am
Here ya go.  :P

(http://st.houzz.com/simgs/50210c8201c2320d_4-5491/traditional-wall-mirrors.jpg)

Other than taking a simplistic shot at Conan, are you suggesting that he himself would have been in position to buy this land several years ago, prior to the usage change from agriculture (or similar) to commercial?    If so, he's way more connected than I imagined.   Also, the vast majority of people seem to not have even been aware until recently that commercialization of the property was even a real possibility.  But there were groups out there (the Y, Kaiser, even the city of Tulsa) that either did or should have had their attention on this, and could have actually done something.   


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AquaMan on February 18, 2015, 10:37:34 am
There was lack of vision to be sure. Chandler was protected by the county long before it was public knowledge as a cool place. And there were people who knew this property's value as a buffer for TM. But keep in mind that its only been the last decade that TM was overtly managed by RPA. We visited the area with my kids back in the 80's and it was plenty of rugged fun but had lots of signs of crime, drugs and sex and few amenities. It (the buffer area OM wants to use) was owned and for sale by GOCO at the time ....but that's another story.

I believe the nearby Park View apartments and the difficulty of development held up its commercial sale, but the county, the city, foundations, authorities....all dropped the ball.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 18, 2015, 11:07:02 am
It had long been the idea of RPA and the City to acquire all the contiguous land and keep it preserved as wilderness.  The city nor the county never prioritized funding for this.

INCOG’s Arkansas River Master Plan, 2004:

Quote
“Turkey Mountain Urban Wilderness Area occupies one of the most prominent locations along the river corridor and represents a unique opportunity for substantial urban wilderness in close proximity to the heart of metropolitan Tulsa. The park should be expanded to the extent possible through the acquisition of adjacent undeveloped property and preserved in perpetuity as an urban wilderness/open space area, Development within the park should be limited to uses complementary to this great natural resource, such as hiking, equestrian trails and stables, environmental education and related uses.”

Jackie Bubenik, the Godfather of Turkey Mountain also made a similar proclamation when the park was dedicated in 1980:
From: tulsaurbanwildernesscoalition.org

(http://i0.wp.com/www.tulsaurbanwildernesscoalition.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/May-7-1980.jpg)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AquaMan on February 18, 2015, 12:11:46 pm
I understand they had plans, but after that initial flurry, which coincided with river development upstream, the effort to insulate it seemed to stall. From 1980 to 2004. What happened?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 18, 2015, 12:13:47 pm
I understand they had plans, but after that initial flurry, which coincided with river development upstream, the effort to insulate it seemed to stall. From 1980 to 2004. What happened?


"Oklahoma Syndrome".


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Breadburner on February 18, 2015, 12:29:41 pm
I understand they had plans, but after that initial flurry, which coincided with river development upstream, the effort to insulate it seemed to stall. From 1980 to 2004. What happened?

Out of sight out of mind.....Plus it had a bit of a bad rep in those years.......


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 18, 2015, 12:36:48 pm
Out of sight out of mind.....Plus it had a bit of a bad rep in those years.......

I’d tend to agree with that.  It’s a shame though once they did clean it up and build out the area with the new parking lot that funding was not solicited to purchase the land in question.  We do know that Kaiser was silently buying up the other properties and it’s been long rumored that he made an offer to the owners of this parcel but he didn’t want to pay highway frontage price for park land.

The Y also apparently made an attempt to purchase it when it was re-zoned in 2008, but were unsuccessful in raising what the owner’s wanted either.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AquaMan on February 18, 2015, 12:56:27 pm
Didn't someone propose a Native American museum nearby a few years ago?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on February 18, 2015, 12:58:15 pm
From 1980 to 2004. What happened?

People went there for two things, and neither was hiking or biking.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cannon_fodder on February 18, 2015, 01:10:53 pm
People went there for two things, and neither was hiking or biking.

I hear this crap all the time. Every story on the internet is followed up by someone saying Turkey Mountain is for gay sex hookups and drug addicts. I've been in Tulsa since 2003. In the last 11 years I've probably been to Turkey mountain 500 times. I have never seen evidence of drug abuse (needles, baggies, sketchy people hanging out seemingly waiting for customers) and I've never seen any lewd behavior.

Maybe those were valid concerns more than a decade ago, but lets live in the now.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Townsend on February 18, 2015, 01:22:52 pm
I hear this crap all the time. Every story on the internet is followed up by someone saying Turkey Mountain is for gay sex hookups and drug addicts. I've been in Tulsa since 2003. In the last 11 years I've probably been to Turkey mountain 500 times. I have never seen evidence of drug abuse (needles, baggies, sketchy people hanging out seemingly waiting for customers) and I've never seen any lewd behavior.

Maybe those were valid concerns more than a decade ago, but lets live in the now.

This story line was widely covered by local news media for a while, particularly KTUL. 

There was one where the reporter went "undercover" and parked on or near TM. 

They then video'd as someone drove up (possibly the producer...I don't know) and started bad touching himself in the reporter's general direction.

That was when the reporter tore out of there leaving the camera man to fend for himself I guess.

That kind of coverage is retained in the general public's collective adolescent mind much longer than trails and family friendly entertainment.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: RecycleMichael on February 18, 2015, 01:26:11 pm
I was just scratching my itch.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on February 18, 2015, 01:28:45 pm
I hear this crap all the time. Every story on the internet is followed up by someone saying Turkey Mountain is for gay sex hookups and drug addicts. I've been in Tulsa since 2003. In the last 11 years I've probably been to Turkey mountain 500 times. I have never seen evidence of drug abuse (needles, baggies, sketchy people hanging out seemingly waiting for customers) and I've never seen any lewd behavior.

Maybe those were valid concerns more than a decade ago, but lets live in the now.

That's why I quoted "What happened between 1980 and 2004". During the 80's and early 90's there was a lot of coverage about those issues happening. In the mid 90's there was a concerted and successful effort to clean up the park.

It was more than one news source, it was reported in the World and the Trib as well as the local three and KRMG.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Breadburner on February 18, 2015, 01:30:32 pm
I hear this crap all the time. Every story on the internet is followed up by someone saying Turkey Mountain is for gay sex hookups and drug addicts. I've been in Tulsa since 2003. In the last 11 years I've probably been to Turkey mountain 500 times. I have never seen evidence of drug abuse (needles, baggies, sketchy people hanging out seemingly waiting for customers) and I've never seen any lewd behavior.

Maybe those were valid concerns more than a decade ago, but lets live in the now.

No one said that was the case now...We commented on what happened between 1980 and 2004.....You haven't lived here long enough to see what went on up there.....


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rebound on February 18, 2015, 01:39:24 pm
I had kind of forgotten about Turkey Mountain's prior reputation.  But I live here in the late 80's and recall that was very much the reputation.  (And River Parks had it's share of that aspect as well.)

I thought I'd do a quick Google and came up with a couple of entries:  (There were more, but I forgot to get out of my work VPN and so did not explore...)

Police running "stang" on Turkey Mountain:
http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showthread.php?112400-TPD-running-quot-stang-quot-up-on-Turkey-Mountain&s=fa05d55241aa2031c5db320e7400b017

Doctor Arrested On Sexual Battery Charges:
http://www.topix.com/forum/tulsa/T4ERPVMS1NAN05G27



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AquaMan on February 18, 2015, 01:43:04 pm
Nor were those the only parks serving as party grounds! I was propositioned at Chandler in early 2003 (unsuccessfully). Lots of privacy when the lights are out and the cops are busy. But that was then. Concerted efforts to patrol those areas has paid off.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 18, 2015, 01:55:47 pm
And in the meantime, Tulsa County announces they will be using $500,000 in park funds to keep the jail operating:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/government/tulsa-county-to-use-park-funds-to-keep-jail-operating/article_58bf53da-de5a-5dc2-9522-678bc71f2933.html

Quote
Three weeks after the Tulsa County parks director recommended closing three county swimming pools, county officials on Tuesday took $500,000 from the Parks Department reserve fund to keep the Tulsa Jail operating through June.

The $500,000 was part of an $800,000 transfer approved by the county Budget Board to the jail fund. The remaining $300,000 will be drawn from the county’s property insurance deductible fund.

So far this fiscal year, the Budget Board has provided $2 million from the county’s general fund to cover revenue shortfalls at the jail. The general fund is funded primarily through property taxes.

The jail’s fiscal year 2015 budget is $29 million. But overtime pay, employee raises, and increased medical and food costs have put the estimated cost of running the jail this year at $31 million.

“They had a shortage of employees, so every detention officer was mandated to work (12-hour shifts) two days a week … when they first started the year,” said county Fiscal Officer Tom Gerard. “Then they backed it down to one day out of the week, and now there is no mandatory overtime because they hired a bunch of new people.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on February 18, 2015, 02:01:46 pm
Some more info Cannon, for the first 10 years approximately, the only access was from I-44 to HWY 75 South, or from Jenks on Elwood going north from 96th Street. There was no Riverparks Trail and no bridge at 71st Street to cross the river so it was quite remote.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Ibanez on February 18, 2015, 02:05:00 pm
I had kind of forgotten about Turkey Mountain's prior reputation.  But I live here in the late 80's and recall that was very much the reputation.  (And River Parks had it's share of that aspect as well.)

I thought I'd do a quick Google and came up with a couple of entries:  (There were more, but I forgot to get out of my work VPN and so did not explore...)

Police running "stang" on Turkey Mountain:
http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showthread.php?112400-TPD-running-quot-stang-quot-up-on-Turkey-Mountain&s=fa05d55241aa2031c5db320e7400b017

Doctor Arrested On Sexual Battery Charges:
http://www.topix.com/forum/tulsa/T4ERPVMS1NAN05G27



Sex on the pedestrian bridge, especially on the top, used to be a big deal.


Or so I've heard....... :-X


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on February 18, 2015, 02:20:16 pm
Didn't someone propose a Native American museum nearby a few years ago?

They did, was supposed to be on the east side closer to the river. It was a Vision 2025 project. Don't remember any petitions to stop it, but lack of funding did that anyway.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on February 19, 2015, 02:07:07 am
Other than taking a simplistic shot at Conan, are you suggesting that he himself would have been in position to buy this land several years ago, prior to the usage change from agriculture (or similar) to commercial?    If so, he's way more connected than I imagined.   Also, the vast majority of people seem to not have even been aware until recently that commercialization of the property was even a real possibility.  But there were groups out there (the Y, Kaiser, even the city of Tulsa) that either did or should have had their attention on this, and could have actually done something.    

Conan's a big boy and can take care of himself. Plus, if you noticed that little emoticon that went alongside my post, you will see (I know he did) that I WAS FREAKIN KIDDING. But I am truly grateful this forum has its own internet bodyguard around to help. We can all rest easy.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Breadburner on February 19, 2015, 07:50:41 am
Sex on the pedestrian bridge, especially on the top, used to be a big deal.


Or so I've heard....... :-X


They did change the name a few years back from "Gobbler's Knob" to Turkey Mountain......


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on February 19, 2015, 06:29:21 pm

They did change the name a few years back from "Gobbler's Knob" to Turkey Mountain......

(http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/14669024/images/1303408579950.jpg)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AngieB on February 20, 2015, 08:16:00 am

They did change the name a few years back from "Gobbler's Knob" to Turkey Mountain......

True. But in Arkansas.  :D


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rdj on February 20, 2015, 09:10:08 am
There was lack of vision to be sure. Chandler was protected by the county long before it was public knowledge as a cool place. And there were people who knew this property's value as a buffer for TM. But keep in mind that its only been the last decade that TM was overtly managed by RPA. We visited the area with my kids back in the 80's and it was plenty of rugged fun but had lots of signs of crime, drugs and sex and few amenities. It (the buffer area OM wants to use) was owned and for sale by GOCO at the time ....but that's another story.

I believe the nearby Park View apartments and the difficulty of development held up its commercial sale, but the county, the city, foundations, authorities....all dropped the ball.

Lack of vision?  Tulsa?  Never!!  I say, NEVER!!!


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AquaMan on February 20, 2015, 09:57:22 am
I understand and share your frustration with Tulsa, but as Conan pointed out there were people with some vision but there was little execution in the intervening 25 years. Bubenik saw the potential. Along with vision you have to have follow-up from other folks willing to commit funds, time, credibility and make public conversation.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 20, 2015, 10:41:00 am
From monitoring the PRC meeting yesterday, I can say that INCOG and the city appreciate the gravity of what Simon is attempting to do and where they are attempting to do it. There are a few things they have to provide for clarification or more detail prior to this going to the full TMAPC on March 18.  I was seated next to John Dionis and Jessica Fields from Simon at the meeting and I got a chuckle when Tony Russell from Channel 6 showed up with a camera.  Dionis asked me: “Did you call them?”  “No John, I thought you called them!”

Simon, thus far has avoided the local media unless it has been their circus they invited them to.  They refused to comment yesterday and last week when the YMCA finally went public that they were not at all happy with the development.

Here are items that came up (please note that I am interchanging INCOG and city comments/inquiries as “city”):

-Simon has completed the traffic, geotechnical, topographical, and enviro studies.  They have a plan for the 61st St. bridge but absolutely no answer for additional traffic on 61st heading east to Elwood then down Elwood Hill.  I do believe these would be part of the public record and I am looking into it.

-The city is concerned about the lighting standards they will use and if they really can minimize light pollution toward the Y and the wilderness to the east.

-The city expressed concern about the quality of run off water which will run off into Mooser Creek.  It does not sound like all the engineering has been completed for the storm water system, but Simon’s engineer explained some of the natural filtration process they intend to use.  Still, filtering the run off from over a million square feet of impermeable surface sounds like a daunting task.  Again, that’s not my area of expertise.  Simon seems to reply to many things with: “We’ve done this over 80 times with our outlet malls, we haven’t gotten this far by not learning something every time.”  Basically, “Trust us to do the right thing.”

-The city does recognize that Turkey Mountain has regional and national prominence as a tourist draw.  They want to make sure Simon understands this and will incorporate as many methods to respect this.  I think they may have even referred to it as making it a bigger draw.

-The city admonished Simon that their planned bridge over 61st Street will have to respect the SW Tulsa small area plan which called for a pedestrian-friendly bridge to connect Turkey Mountain to the neighboring areas to the west.  Simon had proposed a 4’ sidewalk on the north side of the bridge, I believe the city will require a minimum of 6’.  There was something in the SAP about assuring equestrian access from the Union Ave. corridor to Turkey Mountain.  I’m not sure a 6’ pedestrian lane will cut it in that case.

-The city has expressed concerns about pedestrian safety in the parking areas and circulator road.  Obviously, this is an auto-centric project with pedestrian features once you are on-site.  Any consideration to pedestrian access to the entrance of the site appears to be an afterthought.  The city is demanding a bus shelter for public transit access.

-The city also wants better clarification on how this project can link to the trails and consider the future use and demand for the trails.  The city recognizes there is increasing interest in the recreation area.  Simon has been reluctant to offer a concession for a trailhead and some parking spaces when pressed by INCOG.  Simon said they were going to contact GKFF about GKFF providing additional parking and trail access from their property across from the pipeline trail.  I told Simon’s reps tearing up more wilderness on the adjacent land would not be received warmly and sharing some of their 1800-2000 parking spaces would be a better gesture.

Lest anyone thinks I’m being ungrateful about the parking situation, this was an issue which was not only stipulated from the beginning, it apparently was Simon’s own stipulation.  I know INCOG has pressed the issue as well so it’s not just us petulant 18 year old BMX riders who don’t have jobs and live in our parent’s basements.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AquaMan on February 20, 2015, 12:30:27 pm
It may be their loss prevention people holding up the use of the parking area for public trail use. Not only would RPA want to be protected with a hefty policy adding them as addl. insured,  but OM could be on the hook for a myriad of law suits. Having GKFF take that burden would work for them I'm sure. Whatever, they need to include that in their costs or take a hike. In fact, just take the hike anyway.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 21, 2015, 06:58:11 pm
Major breaking news on the proposed mall development. 

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/public-meeting-set-on-proposed-outlet-mall-near-turkey-mountain/article_6c8e12e2-75c2-5ee2-aa42-4abb0862fe6b.html

Quote
Public meeting set on proposed outlet mall near Turkey Mountain

Many of the city councilors who hold the fate of a proposed outlet mall near Turkey Mountain in their hands aren’t thrilled with the location or how the project has been handled.

At least two are on record as saying they could not support Tulsa Premium Outlets in its proposed location on the corner of U.S. 75 and West 61st Street, and another has scheduled a public meeting on the proposal.
The meeting, arranged by Councilor Jeannie Cue, will be held at 6:30 p.m. March 17 at the Marriott Tulsa Hotel Southern Hills, 1902 E. 71 St.
“I want (the developer) to answer the questions that all concerned residents have,” Cue said. “We want to get their input because we have not heard a public comment from them on their plans.”

That meeting will be held the day before the developer of the mall, Simon Property Group, is scheduled to present its rezoning application to the Tulsa Metropolitan Area Planning Commission.

The commission is a recommending body. The City Council will have the final say on whether the rezoning request is approved or rejected.

Cue, who represents the district where the mall would be built, said her constituents have generally been supportive of the project, but that the overwhelming majority of people she’s heard from are opposed to it.

“I have been getting numerous emails from all over Tulsa County and the surrounding area who are not in favor of it,” Cue said.

She is the only councilor to hear from Simon, and that wasn’t until Friday. Still, she has plenty of unanswered questions.

“I would like to know the cost (to the city),” Cue said. “And have they done a study of the infrastructure needs? What are they asking, because this has not been discussed with the council on what their actual ask is of the city.”
Les Morris, director of public relations for Simon, on Friday provided a list of organizations the company has met with to discuss its project.
They include River Parks, the YMCA, Tulsa Urban Wildlife Coalition, Saint Francis Tulsa Tough, Lee’s Bikes and Tatur Racing as well other users of Turkey Mountain.
Simon also has met with ODOT, various utility companies, and city Engineering and Planning Commission staff. It also plans to meet with other city councilors before the company goes before the Planning Commission, Morris said in an email.
Clay Bird, director of the Mayor’s Office of Economic Development, said he believes Simon is reaching out to interested parties.

“To the best of my knowledge and from what they’ve told me and what I’ve heard from other groups, they are,” Bird said.

Simon, owner of Woodland Hills Mall, announced plans to construct the upscale outlet mall last year.

It would cover more than 48 acres of private property and include more than 350,000 square feet of leasable space, according to project plans. The only entrance to the mall would be off 61st Street.

The proposal has drawn criticism from Turkey Mountain enthusiasts who are concerned the mall would encroach on trails and spoil the pristine wilderness setting.

Council Chairman Phil Lakin said he and his family have spent countless hours exploring the wilderness area.

“I will always do what I can to support smart development because it’s good for our citizens and government services,” said Lakin “But this development, in its present form, seems to unnecessarily encroach on a highly unique Tulsa treasure.”

Lakin is CEO of the Tulsa Community Foundation. The foundation is affiliated with the George Kaiser Family Foundation, which owns 139 acres on Turkey Mountain.
Councilor Anna America said she would love to see Tulsa get an outlet mall — and the sales-tax revenue that comes with it — but that it shouldn’t be built in its proposed location.
“It’s an absolute asset for Tulsa,” America said. “I would love to see this mall in Tulsa — just somewhere else.”

America, like other councilors, has heard from constituents concerned about how the proposed mall would affect Turkey Mountain. She said she shares those concerns, but is also troubled by the prospect of the city’s providing tax incentives for public infrastructure needed for the project.

Bird has said previously that the city has had discussions with Simon about creating a Tax Increment Finance District to fund the work.

TIFs allow developers to repay government entities for the construction of public infrastructure related to their projects, often using sales- and property-tax collections.

America said she would rather see a TIF used in another part of town, given that Tulsa Premium Outlets would be built a mile north of Tulsa Hills Mall, which was built using a TIF.

“We have used it in that area,” America said. “I want to be more judicious about where we use those.”

Councilor G.T. Bynum said his experience has shown that developers who reach out to the parties affected by a project are the ones whose projects succeed.

“On this proposal, on something this controversial, the first I heard of any public outreach was in the last few days after plans had already been submitted to the Planning Commission,” Bynum said. “And I have yet to hear from a single Tulsan who likes the proposal. I am keeping an open mind until we see what the Planning Commission recommends, but am so far not very impressed by the approach.”


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Breadburner on February 21, 2015, 07:18:02 pm
This deal needs to be shitcanned in this location....Any councilor that approves this needs to be shitcanned as welll.......


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Ibanez on February 22, 2015, 02:22:55 pm
I wish they would abandon this area as the proposed site. There are plenty of areas along 75 they can build if that is really where they want to be? Lots of empty land around 75 & 67 (151st street) that would be much better suited to something like this.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Red Arrow on February 22, 2015, 03:09:58 pm
I wish they would abandon this area as the proposed site. There are plenty of areas along 75 they can build if that is really where they want to be? Lots of empty land around 75 & 67 (151st street) that would be much better suited to something like this.

Simon would probably view that as too far from Tulsa.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 22, 2015, 05:11:13 pm
I wish they would abandon this area as the proposed site. There are plenty of areas along 75 they can build if that is really where they want to be? Lots of empty land around 75 & 67 (151st street) that would be much better suited to something like this.

Too far off I-44 for their purposes.

Certainly they would get business from Okmulgee and points south, but the real draw is being adjacent to a major interstate or interstate spur like 244.

That’s why all three proposed projects are located on or near I-44.  Simon has already invested considerable amounts in engineering and studies for this site, I think they are all in or all out on this one.  An alternate site does not seem to be a reality.

Personally, I’d suggest the city jump on the Horizon bandwagon or the city will end up losing out to the Cherokees.  Imagine what a windfall $4-$6 million a year in new sales tax revenue would mean to a community the size of Catoosa.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: RecycleMichael on February 22, 2015, 06:12:40 pm
I wish they would abandon this area as the proposed site.

The other three corners of that intersection are all undeveloped. Any of the other three would be embraced by most everybody.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Ibanez on February 22, 2015, 06:37:43 pm
The other three corners of that intersection are all undeveloped. Any of the other three would be embraced by most everybody.


Any idea on who owns the land on those other 3 corners and if a sale might be possible as an alternative?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 22, 2015, 10:29:36 pm
Any idea on who owns the land on those other 3 corners and if a sale might be possible as an alternative?

Sharon King Davis or one of her RE trusts owns commercial land just South of Parkview Terrace Apartments facing 61st.  The land doesn’t have enough acreage for such a development.  The area north of Parkview is Bales Park which is city-owned and out of play.  The land south of that- between Union and 75 is in the McGeehee trust and apparently is for sale according to someone I’ve spoken with.  Part of that has a commercial corridor re-zone across from the entrance to Page Belcher.  This is the property residents chased off Lindsey development from about 1 1/2 years ago.  The council canned an apartment complex there.  I don’t think neighbors would be friendly to the idea of a mall.

I’ve heard Simon did not like the site on the west side of 75 because highway 75 drainage was directed there and they didn’t want the headache of managing it and their additional run off.  I don’t understand the issue, how does Simon plan to manage over 1 million square feet of impermeable surface and channel it in an orderly means to Mooser Creek from a site which has slopes up to 29% grade now?

I’m running on fumes here and don’t have time to access my land maps but the McGeehee trust also owns land on the east side of along 75 south of 61st and north of the Spine Hospital.  Their land is bordered by land the Siegfried Companies owns to the east.  Simon said that land was available as well.

I’ve had discussions with people in the know who say there is land in the area north of Tulsa Hills near the Spine Hospital which would be cheaper to develop and has much of the infrastructure they need already in place thanks to the Tulsa Hills.  Again, the prize is I-44 visibility, it does not exist at 71st St.  It’s well over the hill (historic Turkey Mountain to be exact) from 44 and not visible enough.

If Tulsa wants the sales tax benefit of an outlet mall, they need to jump in with the Horizon project or face losing out to Catoosa for this deal.  I honestly don’t see Simon pulling this off. I believe most council members understand how valuable an undeveloped Turkey Mountain is.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 22, 2015, 10:37:09 pm
Here are important dates if you are for or against the mall development. 

Public forums:

March 12- Southwest Tulsa Chamber of Commerce public forum, open to all citizens of Tulsa.  Riverfield Country Day School (time TBA)
March 16- Zarrow Library hosted by Simon Properties, open only to District 2 residents
March 17- Tulsa Southern Hills Marriott, public forum hosted by District 2 councilor, Jeannie Cue.  I believe this is open to all citizens, not just D-2.

Also of note: Simon’s corridor zoning application goes before the TMAPC on March 18. Public comment is encouraged and accepted.  As well a show of concerned citizens is important.  Please note, according to TMAPC guidelines, emails, letters, and petitions are give equal consideration as oral comments in case you cannot attend the meeting. 


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AngieB on February 23, 2015, 10:10:26 am
Here are important dates if you are for or against the mall development. 

Public forums:

March 12- Southwest Tulsa Chamber of Commerce public forum, open to all citizens of Tulsa.  Riverfield Country Day School (time TBA)
March 16- Zarrow Library hosted by Simon Properties, open only to District 2 residents
March 17- Tulsa Southern Hills Marriott, public forum hosted by District 2 councilor, Jeannie Cue.  I believe this is open to all citizens, not just D-2.

Also of note: Simon’s corridor zoning application goes before the TMAPC on March 18. Public comment is encouraged and accepted.  As well a show of concerned citizens is important.  Please note, according to TMAPC guidelines, emails, letters, and petitions are give equal consideration as oral comments in case you cannot attend the meeting. 

Yes, March 17 is open to the public. As a resident of District 2, I will be attending all three of these meetings. Simon has reportedly confirmed they will have representatives in attendance at Jeannie's meetings on the 16th & 17th.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: carltonplace on February 23, 2015, 11:17:43 am

If Tulsa wants the sales tax benefit of an outlet mall, they need to jump in with the Horizon project or face losing out to Catoosa for this deal.  I honestly don’t see Simon pulling this off. I believe most council members understand how valuable an undeveloped Turkey Mountain is.

If this falls through (and I think there is enough opposition to kill it) then won't that pretty much make this site untenable for future commercial development?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 23, 2015, 11:32:22 am
If this falls through (and I think there is enough opposition to kill it) then won't that pretty much make this site untenable for future commercial development?

Not necessarily.  It already has corridor, retail, and office light zoning on the land.  As well, on every comp plan I’ve seen, it’s had the blight of commercial development on top of it because it lines the 75 corridor.  I for one don’t want to see this threat every year or two.  Anyone got a thick checkbook?

(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/Screen%20Shot%202015-02-23%20at%2011.24.43%20AM_zpscg9qoejz.png)

For anyone who wants to see their plan package, here it is:

http://www.tmapc.org/tmapc/Z-7296_Z-7296-SP-1.pdf



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: carltonplace on February 23, 2015, 11:52:55 am
OK, then is there any commercial land use that would be accepted as not harmful to the wilderness? My guess is that no commercial use would pass the public approval hurdle unless it contributes to the TM experience.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 23, 2015, 12:54:10 pm
OK, then is there any commercial land use that would be accepted as not harmful to the wilderness? My guess is that no commercial use would pass the public approval hurdle unless it contributes to the TM experience.

The area on the zoning map where the CS and OL designations are seem to be about 1/5 of the total tract area.  That part was partially cleared a couple of years ago.  Here’s one version of what it could be with better in and out horse rig parking, more parking for the rest of the trail users and a west side community or heritage center. 

It would take many moving parts to make a vision like this happen as it would have to come from private donations and GKFF has already committed quite a bit to RPA and has purchased property to the east of this.  But as Phil Lakin is fond of saying, Tulsa is America’s most generous city.

Can’t remember if I posted this rendering before:

(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/b8a89aa8-5a3f-45c7-a7fd-573498e4a2cc_zps1t9w4mkg.jpg)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: ZYX on February 24, 2015, 11:59:14 am
More From the Tulsa World:

http://m.tulsaworld.com/news/local/city-councilors-hesitant-about-proposed-outlet-mall-near-turkey-mountain/article_6c8e12e2-75c2-5ee2-aa42-4abb0862fe6b.html?mode=jqm (http://m.tulsaworld.com/news/local/city-councilors-hesitant-about-proposed-outlet-mall-near-turkey-mountain/article_6c8e12e2-75c2-5ee2-aa42-4abb0862fe6b.html?mode=jqm)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Breadburner on February 24, 2015, 12:39:19 pm
So 8 acres of Shopping and 40 acres of parking....


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 25, 2015, 10:10:00 am
I’m sorry the hubris of these people is stifling.  They are a walking PR gaffe.

Quote
Les Morris, director of public relations for Simon, said the company is well aware of the importance of Turkey Mountain to Tulsans.

“Simon’s Premier Outlets team is the best in the world in what they do,” he said. “We have ownership interest in 84 premium outlets around the world.”
Tulsa needs only to look at the company’s work at Woodland Hills Mall to see the way it operates, Morris said.

“Every development project we build — every one of them — we take into account the community’s needs,” he said. “I want to emphasize this. Every situation. And there is not another Turkey Mountain in another location. We are very, very aware of the situation.

“We want to meet with interested parties; we have met with interested parties; and we will continue to meet with interested parties.”

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepage4/wilderness-group-opposes-proposed-outlet-mall-near-turkey-mountain/article_3659296c-068f-5961-a597-72a956138e06.html

It was this attitude of “We are number one, we have 84 outlets...” has really pissed off every person they have reached out to.  Because it is their way to dodge issues they have simply not thought of or refuse to discuss.  They even dropped this line at the INCOG meeting last week after trying to impress everyone in the room that they liked Burnco BBQ.

And there is not another Turkey Mountain in another location is the best reason not to build on Turkey Mountain.

Here’s photos from the WHM parking lot this morning:

Great work Simon! Keep it up!

(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/6b43971f-554b-45a6-8c06-9bd568edf5ea_zpsxdbvbjmc.jpg)

(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/cdf535ad-a470-4944-9795-74f066aec085_zpszplfp0hr.jpg)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 25, 2015, 11:00:46 am
I’m sorry the hubris of these people is stifling.  They are a walking PR gaffe.

Here’s photos from the WHM parking lot this morning:

Great work Simon! Keep it up!

(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/6b43971f-554b-45a6-8c06-9bd568edf5ea_zpsxdbvbjmc.jpg)

(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/cdf535ad-a470-4944-9795-74f066aec085_zpszplfp0hr.jpg)




In fairness - and I am not defending Simon, 'cause I have made it very obvious how bad I think they are - that is also the picture of ALL the main highways around Tulsa area, and many of the main streets.  This town has turned into one big dumpster where people just throw their trash out anywhere/anytime.  WHM is just more of the same.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 25, 2015, 11:04:51 am


In fairness - and I am not defending Simon, 'cause I have made it very obvious how bad I think they are - that is also the picture of ALL the main highways around Tulsa area, and many of the main streets.  This town has turned into one big dumpster where people just throw their trash out anywhere/anytime.  WHM is just more of the same.



I get your point, but they shouldn't crow about their sterling record at an existing property when they obviously don’t make lot maintenance a huge priority.

Failure to contain trash that will blow into the Y camp and the wilderness to the east will be a big issue.  For a fact, they have no plan in place to address it and won’t until they have on site management in place.  Tulsa is windy Fall, Winter, Spring, and Summer.  There’s already trash blowing in to TM property from Tulsa Hills tenants over a mile away.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 25, 2015, 11:15:49 am
I get your point, but they shouldn't crow about their sterling record at an existing property when they obviously don’t make lot maintenance a huge priority.

Failure to contain trash that will blow into the Y camp and the wilderness to the east will be a big issue.  For a fact, they have no plan in place to address it and won’t until they have on site management in place.  Tulsa is windy Fall, Winter, Spring, and Summer.  There’s already trash blowing in to TM property from Tulsa Hills tenants over a mile away.



Yep!!  100%


Simon is the one that allowed Eastland to be overrun by the "gangsters/thugs" (is that politically incorrect enough to piss off someone...I hope!) in the area, letting it turn into a pigsty, then closing it down after all the buying customers were run off.  Maybe Eastland was competition enough to WHM that they wanted to eliminate it intentionally.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Breadburner on February 25, 2015, 11:23:10 am
Tulsa Says.....GTFOOM Simon.....


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on March 06, 2015, 02:36:58 pm
TNF has turned out to be a good archival source of information.  I’d long since forgotten about the whole TIF issue at Tulsa Hills way back when.  Pretty funny to go back and read some of the puffery from Chris Medlock. Wonder what ever happened to his over-inflated ego?

http://www.tulsaurbanwildernesscoalition.org/?p=670

Quote
TUWC: THE VIEW FROM OUR GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS COORDINATOR
MARCH 6, 2015 TULSAUWC

I had lunch yesterday with a couple of other TUWC founding members and one of them made a statement that really struck me about that general area of west Tulsa becoming “retailed-out” while we are proposing to subtract from our most important urban resource: green space.

That conversation and another I had recently with a long-time west Tulsa resident led me back to the genesis of Tulsa Hills.

In early 2006 developers of Tulsa Hills, Sooner Investments of Oklahoma City, had run into unanticipated challenges in developing their site. They came back to the city of Tulsa requesting a TIF district to finance the additional costs they had uncovered. If they could not secure the additional funding, they said they woud have to cancel the project.

I for one, have thought of Tulsa Hills being a great and timely project for west Tulsa and an appropriate instance where a TIF rewarded the area with better infrastructure, more modern amenities, it has driven more home construction, and Tulsa Hills has been a proven regional draw for sales tax revenue.

I’ve been told before by a developer knowledgeable with Tulsa Hills and the proposed Simon site that the Simon site has even more challenges for site prep. So what happens when Simon decides to spring similar news on the city council after rushing their plan through in an attempt to thwart Horizon Group’s bid for an outlet mall and Simon’s proposal ends up costing even more in TIF funding than Horizon’s would have?

There’s a serious irony in this whole development which has been lost to the sands of time. In 2006, then city councilor, Bill Christiansen said he might not be able to support this TIF as he was worried Woodland Hills’ tax collection potential might be undermined by this development. Never mind that Tulsa Hills’ offerings and Woodland Hills’ were somewhat different. It would take a whole lot of convincing otherwise to prove to me that Simon was not lobbying the council against that TIF at the time.

In speaking to a long-time west Tulsa resident who backed the Tulsa Hills development, she related to me that Simon was openly sharing concern about how Tulsa Hills might damage their business six miles to the east. She sees a real irony that now Simon wants to piggyback off the success Tulsa Hills has had and go to the city with their hand out now looking for a TIF.

Finally, I came across a blog post from Michael Bates’ Batesline blog which said “A study of retail opportunities within the City of Tulsa identified this site (Tulsa Hills) and one near I-44 and 129th East Avenue as the optimum locations for a new major retail development.”

West Tulsa has gotten a windfall of related retail and residential development that is rapidly taxing the Highway 75 corridor. With all the new development to open within the next year between 71st and Jenks, the additional traffic through the I-44 and 75 interchange will be a nightmare.

When will it be east Tulsa’s turn for a development that will change its fortunes? The proposed Horizon outlet mall development also includes pad space for additional restaurant and retail space. This is the type of development that could lead an economic renaissance for east Tulsa that is long overdue.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: patric on March 10, 2015, 08:53:03 am
If you want to see how some developers view the area around Turkey Mountain, drive south a bit to the Perryman Ranch and look at some of the ugliest, treeless cookie-cutter development going on. 
They are at this time bulldozing right up to the front lawn of the ranch.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Breadburner on March 10, 2015, 10:13:07 am
If you want to see how some developers view the area around Turkey Mountain, drive south a bit to the Perryman Ranch and look at some of the ugliest, treeless cookie-cutter development going on. 
They are at this time bulldozing right up to the front lawn of the ranch.

Why didn't you buy it.......


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Townsend on March 10, 2015, 11:22:25 am
Why didn't you buy it.......

That's some darn fine contributing.  Darn fine


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rebound on March 10, 2015, 11:24:39 am
That's some darn fine contributing.  Darn fine

Troll level turned to 11...


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 10, 2015, 04:24:10 pm
That's some darn fine contributing.  Darn fine


6th grade public school education level....

And actually, coming back to my senses, probably not public schools - they are much better than that at 6th grade.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on March 10, 2015, 05:26:27 pm
There is a forum this Thursday night at 6pm presented by the SW Tulsa Chamber along with Riverfield Country Day School.  Representatives in forestry, economic development, environmental issues, neighborhoods, and recreation will be on the panel.  The presentation will allow all sides of the issue to be heard.

The Forum limited to D-2 residents only on March 16 and the public forum at Southern Hills Marriott on March 17 apparently only have representatives from Simon Properties and Clay Bird’s office.  Representatives from Simon and Clay Bird declined to attend the Riverfield forum.

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/11054831_836665263036866_2815919511321684148_n.jpg?oh=b46f67f2e40e66fee6dcbbb098b6fda7&oe=558C3D28&__gda__=1434636193_3bd8b78cd611c3ea3a2b8a2e55a085ba)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on March 10, 2015, 05:58:48 pm
I just read Simon is breaking ground tomorrow.



Oh wait, I meant I am watching Breaking Bad tomorrow. Sorry for the confusion.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on March 10, 2015, 06:04:01 pm
If you want to see how some developers view the area around Turkey Mountain, drive south a bit to the Perryman Ranch and look at some of the ugliest, treeless cookie-cutter development going on. 
They are at this time bulldozing right up to the front lawn of the ranch.

You mean homes where people might be living? Give us a picture of your house so we can critique its appearance smart guy.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on March 10, 2015, 06:04:49 pm
Troll level turned to 11...

BB is just being an activist. We need more of that around here.  :P


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Breadburner on March 10, 2015, 06:34:20 pm
That's some darn fine contributing.  Darn fine

You been on vacation....???


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on March 10, 2015, 09:13:40 pm
I just read Simon is breaking ground tomorrow.



Oh wait, I meant I am watching Breaking Bad tomorrow. Sorry for the confusion.

Turkey Mountain dies in the end.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on March 10, 2015, 09:43:43 pm
Turkey Mountain dies in the end.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rJHxCTlkLbg/U1-_OgWXHeI/AAAAAAAAASI/KdWcG19TiKc/s1600/Turrible.png)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: TeeDub on March 11, 2015, 09:20:09 am
Turkey Mountain dies in the end.

You should have posted "Spoiler Alert."    Now the whole thing is ruined for me.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 11, 2015, 10:42:13 am
You mean homes where people might be living? Give us a picture of your house so we can critique its appearance smart guy.


He is being generic - all additions are treeless, cookie-cutter, bu$$ ugly places - except for just the tiniest number who actually have some design involved.

The criteria - if there is a driveway and a garage door at the front of the house, with said garage door being an integral part of the lack of design effort, then THAT is the type housing addition one lives in - cookie cutter ugly.  We looked at houses in Chimney Hills several times many years ago and thought some of them were slightly less ugly than most, but they all still had the garage door as main architectural element.  The realtor was AMAZING!!!  She happened to live in the area and was active in the HOA, and was more than just a little bit snooty about how much better Chimney Hills was than most additions for various reasons, including design!!  I have a couple architects and one architectural engineer in the family, and so have absorbed at least an inkling of what actually constitutes good residential design, so I told her the garage door reality.  The expressions were priceless - I wish I would have had a camera!!

We now live in a neighborhood where people are content with their "treeless cookie-cutter" houses, because they planted trees to hide the generic.  And no one has delusions of grandeur.... nice little area surrounded by good friendly people for the vast majority.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: patric on March 11, 2015, 10:53:27 am
You mean homes where people might be living? Give us a picture of your house so we can critique its appearance smart guy.


This doesnt show it all,
or may not be to scale,
or remotely accurate, but


(http://splitsider.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/forte_lastmanonearth.jpg)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 11, 2015, 10:56:27 am

This doesnt show it all,
or may not be to scale,
or remotely accurate, but


(http://splitsider.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/forte_lastmanonearth.jpg)


I saw that on the show!!  Brilliant!!  I want a margarita swimming pool...!!


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on March 11, 2015, 01:40:03 pm
You should have posted "Spoiler Alert."    Now the whole thing is ruined for me.


You win the internets today. As always, collect your trophy from Al Gore--founder and leader of the internet.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on March 12, 2015, 08:54:32 am
Well Turkey Mountain has gotten a 30 day reprieve.  Simon has asked for a continuance of their zoning hearing to April 15.  Not really a surprise.  Word around the campfire is it might even be delayed longer.  There are many moving parts in this project.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rebound on March 12, 2015, 08:59:30 am
BB is just being an activist. We need more of that around here.  :P

Troll level to 12...  :)



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 12, 2015, 09:58:49 am
You win the internets today. As always, collect your trophy from Al Gore--founder and leader of the internet.


It's kind of a shame you are always in "Twitter" mode...sound byte mode for older folks.  But with your statement about Gore, maybe there is a glimmer for you, if you could just read a few more words at one time....

Here is Al's quote;

I'll be offering my vision when my campaign begins. And it will be comprehensive and sweeping. And I hope that it will be compelling enough to draw people toward it. I feel that it will be. But it will emerge from my dialogue with the American people. I've traveled to every part of this country during the last six years. During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country's economic growth and environmental protection, improvements in our educational system.


I know you want that to mean what Rupert and Friends have programmed you with - framing this as a claim that he personally believed he invented the internet - which is exactly NOT what he said.

His actual words have been widely affirmed by the main guys involved in the implementation of the idea - Vint Cerf and Bob Kahn - guys in the geek/tech world who are acknowledged as 'Fathers' of the webz.  Kahn's literal statement about it, "No one in public life has been more intellectually engaged in helping to create the climate for a thriving Internet than the Vice President."  (VP referring to Al Gore, of course.)

Maybe THAT is the problem - the word 'intellectually' that Kahn used - Rupert and Friends just can't wrap their minds around that concept - of intellect!!


Here's a little history for those interested in a high level view of development of the interwebz...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gore_and_information_technology


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AdamsHall on March 12, 2015, 10:16:28 am
... sorry to contribute to the thread drift, but the Gore discussion reminded me of my favorite political ad ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vepcauRpinA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vepcauRpinA)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on March 12, 2015, 10:36:06 am
So did Gore count Narwhals and polar bears the same day in the same spot?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 12, 2015, 10:42:20 am
Turkey Mountain dies in the end.


It's already a done deal...maybe we should just schedule a TNF wake for Turkey Mountain.  Progress for the sake of progress will ensue no matter what.

Previous posters have complained about us getting to pay for the infrastructure improvements for that mess.  I second their thoughts.





Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on March 12, 2015, 12:20:33 pm

It's already a done deal..


Far from it.  I’d hate for someone just now tuning in to this thread to think it was a done deal.  It’s nowhere close.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AquaMan on March 12, 2015, 12:23:28 pm
It sounds like they're asking for a cooling off period. Hard to keep the anti momentum going with spring break, end of school, vacations, festivals etc. Watch out for the sucker punch!


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 12, 2015, 12:54:58 pm
Far from it.  I’d hate for someone just now tuning in to this thread to think it was a done deal.  It’s nowhere close.


I suspect there will be lots of commotion, moaning, groaning, and wailing and maybe even some flagellation.  And then it will go through.  Or if we are lucky, Simon will get reach the point they feel the bad publicity can't outweigh the expected benefit.  Then it will stop - for that location.


I have never been to the outlet mall in OKC - that kind of thing never impinges on my consciousness, but have been asking around of all the circle of friends/family and was somewhat surprised at how many of them make at least annual pilgrimages to OKC to attend the mall services (sales, etc).  Some go more than once a year.  And all of them are excited about the shopping there, so my apathy has changed somewhat to a mild enthusiasm for the idea.  Would much rather see a very different location, though so we don't have to spend a ton of money on intersection improvements there.  There has to be an already improved intersection in the metro area somewhere.... 

How about on the north side of the street across from Eastland!!




Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on March 12, 2015, 01:26:25 pm
Nope, they just aren’t ready.  That was apparent at the PRC meeting in February and in the face-to-face meetings they staged that week with area stakeholders.  When they are ready, I’m certain they will have a spectacular plan.  They are the #1 mall developer in the world.  A fact they are very proud of.

The longer this goes, there’s a better chance the Cherokees end up winning this lottery.  Too bad the Tulsa ED office (from what I’m hearing) hasn’t been supporting the project which made the most sense in the first place: Horizon.  That site also has acres of pad development space for restaurants and hotels.

That is a blighted area in need of an economic boost and would better justify a TIF and it’s been identified for at least ten years as one of two spots in the metro with huge retail potential.  The other identified at the same time was where Tulsa Hills sits now.

My understanding is the Tulsa Hills TIF still is not paid out so it makes no real sense to throw another TIF on an area that has more recently benefitted from it.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rdj on March 12, 2015, 01:33:01 pm
I'm told by folks that spend a lot of time at City Hall that the Horizon folks have provided a lot of watercolor drawings but no real substance or an ability to move forward.  That could be due to the city staff's desire to move forward with Simon, could be they know that if Simon wants Tulsa they'll get it or could be they don't have their ducks in a row either and are just biding time.

My prediction is the Cherokee's do retail of some sorts at their location.  They can afford to build whatever they want and charge below market rents to gain occupancy if needed.  That area is seeing quite a bit of retail development to the east, so I wouldn't be surprised to see them do non-outlet retail.

My other prediction is if an outlet mall is built it will be by Simon and will be in the HWY 75 corridor.  They have some of the best folks in town representing them so they'll figure out a way to get it done if they're willing to slog thru the muddy process.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on March 12, 2015, 02:47:50 pm
I'm told by folks that spend a lot of time at City Hall that the Horizon folks have provided a lot of watercolor drawings but no real substance or an ability to move forward.  That could be due to the city staff's desire to move forward with Simon, could be they know that if Simon wants Tulsa they'll get it or could be they don't have their ducks in a row either and are just biding time.

My prediction is the Cherokee's do retail of some sorts at their location.  They can afford to build whatever they want and charge below market rents to gain occupancy if needed.  That area is seeing quite a bit of retail development to the east, so I wouldn't be surprised to see them do non-outlet retail.

My other prediction is if an outlet mall is built it will be by Simon and will be in the HWY 75 corridor.  They have some of the best folks in town representing them so they'll figure out a way to get it done if they're willing to slog thru the muddy process.

Keep in mind, Simon has found themselves having to partner with Tanger and Woodmont (who is developing the Cherokee site) in other markets.  They don’t always win.  One thing the folks from Simon let slip in one of their face-to-face meetings last month is that the Cherokees have quite a bit more cash at their disposal and they already have a $20 million TIF (or some other incentive) from the city of Catoosa.  They also have no idea how many leases and LOI’s the Cherokees have signed to date.  That, alone, is the real wildcard.

Simon has a few challenges ahead.  There’s still a right of way from ODOT’s functional plans which runs right through the middle of their property that no one from ODOT or INCOG has ruled in or out as of yet.  Plus you have to convince 5 out of the nine city councilors a controversial project like this should go forward, then you have to convince the council to approve a TIF.  Simon has said they will not develop without bridge improvements.  They also said they cannot afford to do the bridge improvements without a TIF.

There’s been speculation as well that Simon may be trying to smoke Horizon out to help protect Woodland and they could end up approaching Woodmont to partner up with them.

If I were to base my opinion purely on ability to lease due to many relationships with retailers, Simon wins, hands down.  There’s a whole lot of other factors working against them, including time and competition.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: LandArchPoke on March 12, 2015, 05:21:11 pm
My understanding is the Tulsa Hills TIF still is not paid out so it makes no real sense to throw another TIF on an area that has more recently benefitted from it.

I wouldn't be surprised if the TIF for Tulsa Hills has to be extended. Everyone always just raves how well Tulsa Hills has done. Well if you look at the TIF amount ($160 million), and how much real estate has actually been built - each sq. ft. of development was subsidized approximately $250 per square foot. That ENTIRE area brings in somewhere around $17 million in property and sales taxes (I think this is what was in the Tulsa World article a week or so ago).

With that kind of advantage there is no wonder the development is so successful. The reason it cost so much was the site selection. They had to chop the top half of several hills off (ironic given the name). We could have built 2 Tulsa Hills somewhere else in Tulsa with that same amount of money. When Tulsa Hills sold from the original developer to the REIT that now owns it, the total value was only $59 million.

In terms of getting the most return on TIF money, hands down it is not Simon. Why not give East Tulsa $160 million to spend on economic development and I think you'd see the same thing that's happened around Tulsa Hills. Let's not double down on poor site selection that requires enormous amounts of money to upgrade infrastructure because of terrain issues.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on March 12, 2015, 06:00:46 pm
I wish the anti-outlet mall folks would stay focused on a message. When I read about some beetle or ODOT ROW, or even conspiratorial stuff, it comes off like grasping at straws, or this:

(http://www.newyorkshitty.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/shitonthewall.jpg)

Just me of course.  :)



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on March 12, 2015, 06:04:51 pm
Troll level to 12...  :)



Yeah. You lend credence to two damned anti-police buffoons and you can's deal with the fall out.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 12, 2015, 06:54:33 pm
Troll level to 12...  :)




Notice how there are at least a couple of them that never offer anything but 'troll'...

No thoughtful insight or well thought out commentary.  Never an opinion or direct answer to specific questions.  And then fall back on the time proven technique of name calling as catchy comeback!



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on March 12, 2015, 08:07:55 pm

Notice how there are at least a couple of them that never offer anything but 'troll'...


In this case it was the equivalent of farting and leaving the room.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on March 12, 2015, 10:03:17 pm
I wouldn't be surprised if the TIF for Tulsa Hills has to be extended. Everyone always just raves how well Tulsa Hills has done. Well if you look at the TIF amount ($160 million), and how much real estate has actually been built - each sq. ft. of development was subsidized approximately $250 per square foot. That ENTIRE area brings in somewhere around $17 million in property and sales taxes (I think this is what was in the Tulsa World article a week or so ago).

With that kind of advantage there is no wonder the development is so successful. The reason it cost so much was the site selection. They had to chop the top half of several hills off (ironic given the name). We could have built 2 Tulsa Hills somewhere else in Tulsa with that same amount of money. When Tulsa Hills sold from the original developer to the REIT that now owns it, the total value was only $59 million.

In terms of getting the most return on TIF money, hands down it is not Simon. Why not give East Tulsa $160 million to spend on economic development and I think you'd see the same thing that's happened around Tulsa Hills. Let's not double down on poor site selection that requires enormous amounts of money to upgrade infrastructure because of terrain issues.

TIF was between $13 to $16 million, depending on who you listen to. 


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on March 12, 2015, 10:10:50 pm
I wish the anti-outlet mall folks would stay focused on a message. When I read about some beetle or ODOT ROW, or even conspiratorial stuff, it comes off like grasping at straws, or this:

(http://www.newyorkshitty.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/shitonthewall.jpg)

Just me of course.  :)



I realize many of your posts are sarcastic but my reply is to illustrate there are many reasons why a mall here is a really bad idea.  The forum tonight identified various aspects as to why this is a bad idea and how it really flies in the face of every single tax-payer paid study which spells out why this is such a bad idea.

We have spent millions over the years identifying ways to attract and retain the right demographic in Tulsa.  We have identified the kinds of developments which would grant us the appearance of a first tier city.  We have paid consultants millions to tell us what would make Tulsa the best place to live.

We consistently ignore all the advice our tax money has paid for.  This is yet one more example of ignoring that advice.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on March 12, 2015, 10:30:13 pm


We have spent millions over the years identifying ways to attract and retain the right demographic in Tulsa.  We have identified the kinds of developments which would grant us the appearance of a first tier city.  We have paid consultants millions to tell us what would make Tulsa the best place to live.



The "right demographic"? That's sounds a tad bit elitist. And who is that right demographic incidentally? More hikers and cyclists? Or fewer people likely to spend money on retail? If those are the choices, I will take the spenders. And I would like to know who these consultants are who think we need more riding trails over more economic activity.

You have come a long way from what might have been your first post on this subject:

Quote
It looks like the eastern border of the mall abuts a section we refer to as pipeline (there’s a pipeliner road which runs north to south).  It affects lesser used expert trails for the most part as well as some intermediate and easier trails which connect the Westside Y to the area where the mall will be.  There’s still plenty of trail access from the Y to the rest of the trail system.  Just a wild guess, but probably less than 20% of the people who use the Turkey Mountain/YMCA trail system utilize this particular area.





Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on March 12, 2015, 11:02:46 pm
The "right demographic"? That's sounds a tad bit elitist. And who is that right demographic incidentally? More hikers and cyclists? Or fewer people likely to spend money on retail? If those are the choices, I will take the spenders. And I would like to know who these consultants are who think we need more riding trails over more economic activity.

You have come a long way from what might have been your first post on this subject:


It’s amazing how your paradigms can shift when you make an honest effort to investigate and explore all sides of an issue.

“The right demographic" is not a foreign concept to this forum.  I’ve posted here now for nine years and I think you’ve been here longer than I have, it crops up in nearly every development-related thread.  It’s no secret YP’s are coveted by every single metro area in the U.S.  When we speak of innovative or archaic development principles, the discussion eventually comes around to: “Will it help us attract and retain young professionals?”

Anyone, please feel free to correct me if I’ve mis-stated anything thus far.

If you would have come to TulsaNow’s forum last month or even to the forum tonight, you’d have heard about Jack Blair’s (Tulsa City Council policy guru) quality of life study which compared Tulsa to 20 peer cities.  In that report and his presentation at the TN forum last month, he identified 25-34 YP’s as being “the desired demographic.” every city is clamoring for.  Hell, even modernized beer laws in the TN forum last night were cited as yet another quality of life issue with YP’s being an important demographic.

Guess what?  Green space, smart planning, and more pedestrian-friendly development is what is attractive to them.  
 
They are decidedly still in the acquisition phase of life, are learning to become big earners while they plant roots, and are huge consumers and contributors to the fabric of cities.

Don’t take my word for it, read the report instead of complaining that you think this is entirely based on people like me who are whining because we want to crap on someone else’s personal enrichment out of pure spite and selfishness.  

At the very least, please take the time to get out and scout about these projects and proposed projects before you pass judgement on other people’s passion for what does and does not qualify as quality and desired development in this city.

And finally, if you don’t like the conclusions of these reports and studies (examples would be: recent QOL report, PlaniTulsa, any various small area plans, comprehensive plans, Mooser Creek Greenway Study, INCOG Arkansas River Master Plan, etc. ad nauseum) you have paid for, as a tax payer, please contact your city councilor and let them know you are tired of them wasting your tax dollars on reports for which we never follow their conclusions.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: LandArchPoke on March 12, 2015, 11:47:08 pm
TIF was between $13 to $16 million, depending on who you listen to. 

This Tulsa World article is a bit confusing.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/businesshomepage1/restaurants-retail-and-renewal-some-years-later-tax-increment-finance/article_92bc0724-90ee-578b-9868-4ba14c783be7.html

7. Tulsa Hills (2006-2021)
Projected: $170,446,000
Actual: $11,257,829 (ad valorem); $14,339,164 (sales tax)

The $170 million I guess is what is projected to be collected over the life of the TIF for Tulsa Hills. So only $13 - $16 million was given? If that's the case, the TIF should already be paid off, considering $25 million has been collected.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on March 13, 2015, 01:09:33 am

At the very least, please take the time to get out and scout about these projects and proposed projects before you pass judgement on other people’s passion for what does and does not qualify as quality and desired development in this city.



I was on the fence on this issue, not really giving a crap because I do not live anywhere close to TM, and I rarely head over that way. But the more I read about this organized effort to interfere with property rights the more I am inclined to take the position-put your money where your mouth is and buy the property. That way people will actually have skin in the game and not have to be bothered with my "passing judgment" on their passion.

And another thing, I do not like the very real litigation possibility that cynical has repeatedly told (warned?) us about. People in this forum complain about how much money Okie's passions over an issue wind up costing the taxpayers in lawsuits. Who is going to pay for that mess if it comes?



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on March 13, 2015, 07:11:11 am
I am going to say this, which is what I communicated on Facebook last night. I am very proud that people that I know in this forum, and others are actually involved in this process. Whether they are right or not, you have to tip the hat. It is more than keyboard commando-ing a position from a computer which is what I am doing.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on March 13, 2015, 07:13:18 am
I was on the fence on this issue, not really giving a crap because I do not live anywhere close to TM, and I rarely head over that way. But the more I read about this organized effort to interfere with property rights the more I am inclined to take the position-put your money where your mouth is and buy the property. That way people will actually have skin in the game and not have to be bothered with my "passing judgment" on their passion.

And another thing, I do not like the very real litigation possibility that cynical has repeatedly told (warned?) us about. People in this forum complain about how much money Okie's passions over an issue wind up costing the taxpayers in lawsuits. Who is going to pay for that mess if it comes?

How hard is it for you to get that they need zoning changes and want TIF money? They have all the rights they need to use the property within current zoning and without taxpayer money, but that won't allow the project to get done.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on March 13, 2015, 08:03:40 am
How hard is it for you to get that they need zoning changes and want TIF money? They have all the rights they need to use the property within current zoning and without taxpayer money, but that won't allow the project to get done.

Because I do not believe for one single second that the issue of TIF money or zoning has anything to do with the underlying dispute here. In my opinion, this is all about TM and the wants of those who use it. That said, is it wrong to have that belief? Of course not. TIF money, zoning, some obscure beetle, graffiti on walls, and every other complaint is masking that actual issue here. I look at that as excuse-making/grasping at straws, which is why I posted earlier about messaging.

If you want, call my fear of litigation "excuse-making", even though I have no direct interest in the outcome. Indirectly, I guess I am impacted because there is a population that apparently wants an outlet mall and may not get one because of those having an interest in TM.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on March 13, 2015, 08:37:18 am
Hey, if there are no real issues related to zoning and they don’t want public money for the project, then Simon should just build it within current codes without a TIF right away.

I personally think it’s going to get built, and built here. Built with a greatly altered site plan on a smaller footprint, maybe with structured parking and some park integration that a TIF helps pay for, which is good. My personal preference is that it moves across the highway, but the process seems pretty locked in at this site. I don’t think the city is actually going to fight too much, they need the project and need it in Tulsa and have to be afraid of the potential Catoosa site.

Tulsa needs this project for sales tax dollars. Jenks schools need the property taxes. The mall will bring a variety of stores to the Tulsa area that don’t exist today which makes the area more livable. It will solidify the southwest Tulsa area as the next boom area of both the metro and the city of Tulsa. The area has good schools, is naturally scenic (which a moved or improved site plan can help maintain), has good if not yet improved highway access and is close to downtown and midtown. The mall going to the other sites will still have benefits but less so. Locating at the Hard Rock in Catoosa drains tax dollars from the city of Tulsa and any related growth would be meager with mediocre schools and a less convenient location to other parts of the city and metro.  East Tulsa has poor area schools and is in a blighted industrial area of the city with zero growth potential.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on March 13, 2015, 01:15:42 pm

East Tulsa has poor area schools and is in a blighted industrial area of the city with zero growth potential.


I remember people arguing Tulsa Hills was a pig in a poke because there was zero growth potential in that area of SW Tulsa.  Turns out, long time land owners are sub-dividing and selling off their properties.  I never would have thought there would have been upscale neighborhood development in that part of Tulsa, ever.  I figured south of 91st was as far north as that would go.

Skip Steele’s presentation at the RCDS forum last night shed some pretty good light on the 129th & I-44 spot. 


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on March 13, 2015, 01:53:27 pm
I remember people arguing Tulsa Hills was a pig in a poke because there was zero growth potential in that area of SW Tulsa.  Turns out, long time land owners are sub-dividing and selling off their properties.  I never would have thought there would have been upscale neighborhood development in that part of Tulsa, ever.  I figured south of 91st was as far north as that would go.

Skip Steele’s presentation at the RCDS forum last night shed some pretty good light on the 129th & I-44 spot. 

The biggest difference being Jenks Schools extend to 61st St. And that expensive subdivision behind Tulsa Hills was there before Tulsa Hills was announced, it's just expanded. The growth was already happening in west Tulsa.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Townsend on March 13, 2015, 02:25:54 pm
I remember people arguing Tulsa Hills was a pig in a poke because there was zero growth potential in that area of SW Tulsa. 

Tulsa Hills is a pig...it could've been so much more but it's a Sam's with a big ugly wall, a Target and a Lowes.  The rest is a bunch of stores I've not paid attention to and a crap load of ugly buildings.  Too bad the developer couldn't keep it hilly (Tulsa Hills)...might've been more of a destination instead of a "go to Sam's and get the hell out of there".

I'm guessing that is what will happen at the outlet mall so I understand people's fear of what is coming.

Saying "it's their property, let them do what they want" is asinine.  There are way too many stakeholders to not make this developer do their damndest to make it work for everyone.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on March 13, 2015, 02:35:28 pm
The biggest difference being Jenks Schools extend to 61st St. And that expensive subdivision behind Tulsa Hills was there before Tulsa Hills was announced, it's just expanded. The growth was already happening in west Tulsa.

I guess I missed that Stone Creek was there before the Tulsa Hills development.  Boy did their backyard view get screwed.

(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/de995167-893e-44be-94f2-b8b9df2910ce_zpszsrhggus.jpg)

Agreed on Jenks schools being a huge advantage, but I think it’s also clear that Tulsa Hills was a catalyst to much more retail and residential development.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on March 13, 2015, 02:45:45 pm
Tulsa Hills is a pig...it could've been so much more but it's a Sam's with a big ugly wall, a Target and a Lowes.  The rest is a bunch of stores I've not paid attention to and a crap load of ugly buildings.  Too bad the developer couldn't keep it hilly (Tulsa Hills)...might've been more of a destination instead of a "go to Sam's and get the hell out of there".

I'm guessing that is what will happen at the outlet mall so I understand people's fear of what is coming.

Saying "it's their property, let them do what they want" is asinine.  There are way too many stakeholders to not make this developer do their damndest to make it work for everyone.

Here’s what else has people worried, especially the Y.  This was taken just south of Dick's:

(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/65654bfc-a7d9-4000-8567-edcf4f70120a_zpsihq0z6p3.jpg)

I get that leases have penalties for stores not using proper disposal, but there’s little safeguard against the slobs of the world who think it’s someone else’s place to pick up after them.  I also realize with our winds some stuff just gets away from people.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on March 13, 2015, 03:29:55 pm
Tulsa Hills is a pig...it could've been so much more but it's a Sam's with a big ugly wall, a Target and a Lowes.  The rest is a bunch of stores I've not paid attention to and a crap load of ugly buildings.  Too bad the developer couldn't keep it hilly (Tulsa Hills)...might've been more of a destination instead of a "go to Sam's and get the hell out of there".

I'm guessing that is what will happen at the outlet mall so I understand people's fear of what is coming.

Saying "it's their property, let them do what they want" is asinine.  There are way too many stakeholders to not make this developer do their damndest to make it work for everyone.

What are you talking about? Tulsa Hills is already there. I thought this was about an outlet mall about one mile north? As for Tulsa Hills, is it not generating tax revenue? Are people not going there? I don't know.

And since when are private property rights asinine?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Townsend on March 13, 2015, 03:39:55 pm
What are you talking about? Tulsa Hills is already there. I thought this was about an outlet mall about one mile north? As for Tulsa Hills, is it not generating tax revenue? Are people not going there? I don't know.

And since when are private property rights asinine?

Note the mention of the outlet mall.

I have no idea.  Since when are private property rights asinine?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rebound on March 13, 2015, 03:43:51 pm
Yeah. You lend credence to two damned anti-police buffoons and you can's deal with the fall out.

Fallout?  Besides you making snarky comments with no substance?  Yeah, I think I can handle that.    I've noticed you argue two ways.  You can, some of the time, provide an interesting counterpoint.  But if you can't, and/or you don't have good argument, you turn to snark and pictures.  But you hate to just let it go so you use a lot of smoke and mirrors.   I'll make my points, but I'm only going to respond to the level of the dialog.  


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on March 13, 2015, 03:44:19 pm
Tulsa Hills is a pig...it could've been so much more but it's a Sam's with a big ugly wall, a Target and a Lowes.  The rest is a bunch of stores I've not paid attention to and a crap load of ugly buildings.  Too bad the developer couldn't keep it hilly (Tulsa Hills)...might've been more of a destination instead of a "go to Sam's and get the hell out of there".

I'm guessing that is what will happen at the outlet mall so I understand people's fear of what is coming.

Saying "it's their property, let them do what they want" is asinine.  There are way too many stakeholders to not make this developer do their damndest to make it work for everyone.

I've never understood Tulsa Hills, the developers were terrible. Whoever planned the parking lots and traffic flow should be flogged.

Tulsa Hills also also should have gone on the other side of the highway where the apartments are now, or on top of the hill at 81st where Unit is going. It would have required much less leveling, the exact same as what you see for the Outlet Mall. US 75 was built right up against the side of the hills, why does development keep trying to go on the side with the hills?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on March 13, 2015, 04:55:54 pm
This Tulsa World article is a bit confusing.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/businesshomepage1/restaurants-retail-and-renewal-some-years-later-tax-increment-finance/article_92bc0724-90ee-578b-9868-4ba14c783be7.html

7. Tulsa Hills (2006-2021)
Projected: $170,446,000
Actual: $11,257,829 (ad valorem); $14,339,164 (sales tax)

The $170 million I guess is what is projected to be collected over the life of the TIF for Tulsa Hills. So only $13 - $16 million was given? If that's the case, the TIF should already be paid off, considering $25 million has been collected.


The more I learn about TIFs the less I know.   :-\

Skip Steele told me last night that TIF is still paying out and I believe it was supposed to be a 15 year TIF.  Each one can have different payback characteristics.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: PonderInc on March 16, 2015, 05:39:01 pm
The main thing that people need to understand is that suburban big box stores (and I include outlet malls in this category) are a bad return on investment for cities.  We go broke on this stuff.  The city has to extend and maintain roads, water/sewer, police, fire, etc to what is currently agricultural land.  The result is supposed to be increased property taxes, sales taxes and jobs.  The problem is that providing / maintaining services in suburban areas costs more than is recouped in taxes.  Then, due to parking and other wasteful land use practices, only a small fraction of the property actually creates jobs and taxes.  And the jobs that are created are low-paying and often part-time.  In the short term, it's a Ponzi scheme (it seems to work as long as there's always new income coming in from more new developments, and the infrastructure is new enough that it doesn't require repairs.  Sort of a time bomb waiting to go off.) Over time, the costs are far greater than the returns.

There are a couple great articles that explain the economics of this in terms of "yield per acre."

http://www.salon.com/2013/11/10/walmart_an_economic_cancer_on_our_cities/ (http://www.salon.com/2013/11/10/walmart_an_economic_cancer_on_our_cities/)
http://www.citylab.com/work/2012/03/simple-math-can-save-cities-bankruptcy/1629/ (http://www.citylab.com/work/2012/03/simple-math-can-save-cities-bankruptcy/1629/)

Both articles cover the same concept in different ways.  An economist compares two different properties: a six-story, mixed-use building near downtown vs a suburban Walmart, and compares them "apple to apple" based on "yield per acre."  The Walmart (which occupied 34 acres) only contributed $50,800 in property and sales tax per acre, while the mixed-use building (which occupied less than a quarter of an acre) contributed $330,000 per acre.  The Walmart contributed 6 jobs per acre, while the mixed-use building contributed 74 jobs per acre.  It really helps you understand the efficiency of density and mixed-use buildings in places where all the space isn't wasted on one-story, single-use buildings where 2/3 of the land is covered in asphalt.

The proposed outlet mall is 48 acres.  This is 2,102,206 SF in size.  Of this, only 350,000 is considered "gross leasable space."  So only 16% of this land will be busy generating (low-paying) jobs and tax dollars.  The rest is mostly asphalt.  In the meantime, they want the city to freeze the taxes at the current rate (as if it's still agricultural / unimproved space) and capture the difference to pay for "improvements" to make this thing work.  So all those newly generated tax dollars won't be paying for schools we already have, or roads that you and I actually drive on, or maintenance of existing infrastructure.  They will be spent making this boondoggle "pencil" for the developers, who know that it doesn't work without the city paying for all the big new roads, signalized intersections, water/sewer, police/fire, etc.

It's a scam and people need to say no.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on March 16, 2015, 06:16:00 pm
Cherry Street generates more sales tax per acre than Tulsa Hills.  That is a known metric.

Does anyone here regularly commute south on 75 during afternoon rush?  It me took the better part of 7-8 minutes to get from 41st to 61st last Thursday night at 5pm.  The outdated design of the cloverleaf interchange over I-44 seems to create a real log jam now.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: CharlieSheen on March 16, 2015, 06:21:40 pm
Cherry Street generates more sales tax per acre than Tulsa Hills.  That is a known metric.

Does anyone here regularly commute south on 75 during afternoon rush?  It me took the better part of 7-8 minutes to get from 41st to 61st last Thursday night at 5pm.  The outdated design of the cloverleaf interchange over I-44 seems to create a real log jam now.

41st to 61st is a PITA during rush hour.  If you leave downtown at 4:30 it isn't really an issue.  Same for in the morning if you are going north since nobody is merging.  169 is the real monster at rush hour not 75.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Hoss on March 16, 2015, 06:27:50 pm
Cherry Street generates more sales tax per acre than Tulsa Hills.  That is a known metric.

Does anyone here regularly commute south on 75 during afternoon rush?  It me took the better part of 7-8 minutes to get from 41st to 61st last Thursday night at 5pm.  The outdated design of the cloverleaf interchange over I-44 seems to create a real log jam now.

It's not just there either...169 and the BA; 169 and 44.  So much velocity on those roads.  ODOT knows they're going to redo the interchange at the BA and 169 eventually.  They really need to consider it at 44 also.  169 is a deathtrap during rush hour.  Not that I can't drive it; I drove for several years in Houston and that is also dangerous.  But they also have zero cloverleaf interchanges so traffic isn't forced into a slow circle on a limited access highway.  This was good design 60 years ago during the standing up of the Interstate Highway System.  Not so much now, however with the traffic counts on 169 (2008 data I found showed that BA/169 interchange averaging about 126000 vehicles a day, no telling what it is 7 years later) it needs to be addressed sooner rather than later.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on March 16, 2015, 08:12:37 pm
Those who were at the District 2 meeting tonight didn’t sound overly impressed.  Apparently no one with Simon spoke.  Lou Reynolds, their local attorney did the speaking and showed some artist renderings of the mall being completely hidden by dense woods.  Yeah, riiiiiiight.  Remember the “screening” of Tulsa Hills exposed retaining walls I shared?

Dog and pony show is open to the entire city tomorrow night 6:30pm at Southern Hills Marriott at 71st & Lewis.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on March 16, 2015, 10:13:52 pm
Cherry Street generates more sales tax per acre than Tulsa Hills.  That is a known metric.

Does anyone here regularly commute south on 75 during afternoon rush?  It me took the better part of 7-8 minutes to get from 41st to 61st last Thursday night at 5pm.  The outdated design of the cloverleaf interchange over I-44 seems to create a real log jam now.

The 81st street exit is a complete mess now, and only one store at The Walk at Tulsa Hills is open. It's going to get much, much worse.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: ZYX on March 16, 2015, 10:27:09 pm
Getting on 75 at 81st is also becoming difficult. Really, the sudden influx of cars onto Highway 75 is incredible. It's amazing how fast it has become crowded.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AngieB on March 17, 2015, 07:34:51 am
Cherry Street generates more sales tax per acre than Tulsa Hills.  That is a known metric.

Does anyone here regularly commute south on 75 during afternoon rush?  It me took the better part of 7-8 minutes to get from 41st to 61st last Thursday night at 5pm.  The outdated design of the cloverleaf interchange over I-44 seems to create a real log jam now.

Would have taken longer if you had tried to go south that same distance on Union. The city has completely effed up the intersection at 51st & Union with unneeded left turn lanes and a stop sign just past the I-44 overpass. Total clusterf...

And I would expect it to get much, much worse if the outlet mall comes to fruition. We already have a lot of extra traffic using Union now to get past the traffic jams on 75.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rdj on March 17, 2015, 08:06:18 am
It's not just there either...169 and the BA; 169 and 44.  So much velocity on those roads.  ODOT knows they're going to redo the interchange at the BA and 169 eventually.  They really need to consider it at 44 also.  169 is a deathtrap during rush hour.  Not that I can't drive it; I drove for several years in Houston and that is also dangerous.  But they also have zero cloverleaf interchanges so traffic isn't forced into a slow circle on a limited access highway.  This was good design 60 years ago during the standing up of the Interstate Highway System.  Not so much now, however with the traffic counts on 169 (2008 data I found showed that BA/169 interchange averaging about 126000 vehicles a day, no telling what it is 7 years later) it needs to be addressed sooner rather than later.

Just wait until the widening of HWY 169 between Tulsa & Owasso, including, the replacement of the bridges over Bird Creek, begins in a few months.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AquaMan on March 17, 2015, 08:28:11 am
Growth hurts. Add to the mix of injuries that Riverside is soon to close for a couple of years because of utility line work for the Gathering place. That traffic is likely to divert to 75 and 44.

Ponder is our local "Cassandra". She knows what happens in development and why it is a Ponzi scheme, yet there is no changing the real estate development paradigm as long as it keeps working. Their motivations are real. The sad fact is that it is unnecessary growth. We aren't really growing much in population or real economic growth. We are merely in the midlife of restructuring the way the city divides up the pie. Same pie.

Suburban growth may be slowing in markets where youth populations are growing but here in status quo land where school districts, ethnic grouping and income disparity are the defining characteristics........

Six uses of the word growth and I was holding back some.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 17, 2015, 08:30:56 am
Just wait until the widening of HWY 169 between Tulsa & Owasso, including, the replacement of the bridges over Bird Creek, begins in a few months.


Oh, goody....another Oklahoma road project to bring a section of road up from the 20th century 1960's all the way to the 20th century 1980's!!  We are so blessed in this state to have such brilliant foresight...!!

This has to be a huge draw to companies considering places to locate!




Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: patric on March 17, 2015, 11:12:53 am

Ponder is our local "Cassandra". She knows what happens in development and why it is a Ponzi scheme, yet there is no changing the real estate development paradigm as long as it keeps working.

I love it AM!

(http://application.denofgeek.com/pics/film/list/bridges/05.jpg)
Apologies for getting off track...


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: dsjeffries on March 17, 2015, 11:16:19 am
The main thing that people need to understand is that suburban big box stores (and I include outlet malls in this category) are a bad return on investment for cities. We go broke on this stuff. The city has to extend and maintain roads, water/sewer, police, fire, etc to what is currently agricultural land. The result is supposed to be increased property taxes, sales taxes and jobs. The problem is that providing / maintaining services in suburban areas costs more than is recouped in taxes. Then, due to parking and other wasteful land use practices, only a small fraction of the property actually creates jobs and taxes. And the jobs that are created are low-paying and often part-time. In the short term, it's a Ponzi scheme (it seems to work as long as there's always new income coming in from more new developments, and the infrastructure is new enough that it doesn't require repairs. Sort of a time bomb waiting to go off.) Over time, the costs are far greater than the returns.

There are a couple great articles that explain the economics of this in terms of "yield per acre."

http://www.salon.com/2013/11/10/walmart_an_economic_cancer_on_our_cities/ (http://www.salon.com/2013/11/10/walmart_an_economic_cancer_on_our_cities/)
http://www.citylab.com/work/2012/03/simple-math-can-save-cities-bankruptcy/1629/ (http://www.citylab.com/work/2012/03/simple-math-can-save-cities-bankruptcy/1629/)

Both articles cover the same concept in different ways. An economist compares two different properties: a six-story, mixed-use building near downtown vs a suburban Walmart, and compares them "apple to apple" based on "yield per acre." The Walmart (which occupied 34 acres) only contributed $50,800 in property and sales tax per acre, while the mixed-use building (which occupied less than a quarter of an acre) contributed $330,000 per acre. The Walmart contributed 6 jobs per acre, while the mixed-use building contributed 74 jobs per acre. It really helps you understand the efficiency of density and mixed-use buildings in places where all the space isn't wasted on one-story, single-use buildings where 2/3 of the land is covered in asphalt.

The proposed outlet mall is 48 acres. This is 2,102,206 SF in size. Of this, only 350,000 is considered "gross leasable space." So only 16% of this land will be busy generating (low-paying) jobs and tax dollars. The rest is mostly asphalt. In the meantime, they want the city to freeze the taxes at the current rate (as if it's still agricultural / unimproved space) and capture the difference to pay for "improvements" to make this thing work. So all those newly generated tax dollars won't be paying for schools we already have, or roads that you and I actually drive on, or maintenance of existing infrastructure. They will be spent making this boondoggle "pencil" for the developers, who know that it doesn't work without the city paying for all the big new roads, signalized intersections, water/sewer, police/fire, etc.

It's a scam and people need to say no.

Excellent points all around. I wish more people would speak in terms of yield per acre, but since it hurts the case being presented by suburban developers, we won't hear that language from them anytime soon.

Though the city can't mandate a minimum YPA or jobs per acre, the amount of parking allowed is a completely controllable factor that could help achieve better outcomes. This is a great example of the kinds of changes we need to push for in the zoning code update. We don't need to just reduce our parking minimum by an arbitrary percentage, we need to reduce it dramatically (or eliminate minimums all together) and establish a parking maximum. The current form of the zoning code update calls for a very slight reduction in parking minimums that really doesn't change much. In fact, a wise friend pointed out that parking minimums would actually increase for certain land use types.

When Tulsans participated in the PlaniTulsa process, we overwhelmingly favored a drastic change in the direction our city. The new zoning code draft just kicks the can down the road, and this outlet mall is a continuation of the same.

If we're serious about the desire to change our city, this is our chance to prove it.

So - we have two choices:
We can do the safe thing and approve more of the same suburban developments like this outlet mall (where 84% of the land is used for parking) because we're scared to lose tax dollars.
Or we can stand up and demand better for our city.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Breadburner on March 17, 2015, 12:37:52 pm
Simon needs to go away.....


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on March 18, 2015, 07:54:06 am
Simon had Lou Reynolds there on their behalf last night.  Their local PR rep didn’t even bother trot out their latest set of renderings.

Either Simon doesn’t have a clue about PR or this whole thing has been a charade to get a seat at the table with one of the other developments.  All they seem to have done so far is make enemies on the City Council, which ultimately decides the fate of this project.

It was good to see the participation last night from both the proponents and the critics of the development.  I’m glad to see people voicing their opinions on what we value in our city.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: ZYX on March 18, 2015, 02:38:38 pm
Simon had Lou Reynolds there on their behalf last night.  Their local PR rep didn’t even bother trot out their latest set of renderings.

Either Simon doesn’t have a clue about PR or this whole thing has been a charade to get a seat at the table with one of the other developments.  All they seem to have done so far is make enemies on the City Council, which ultimately decides the fate of this project.

It was good to see the participation last night from both the proponents and the critics of the development.  I’m glad to see people voicing their opinions on what we value in our city.

It's strange. Local media has run many stories over the past few weeks about the opposition to this development, but I have yet to see anything from Simon that makes an argument for their development. Is their strategy to pretend that there is no opposition, and hope that helps media attention die down?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: BKDotCom on March 18, 2015, 03:24:49 pm
Is their strategy to pretend that there is no opposition, and hope that helps media attention die down?

Yes / media attention is a bad thing?  More like free advertising.   Hard to even remember that there are two other proposed outlet malls.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: ZYX on March 18, 2015, 05:54:52 pm
I wouldn't think that media attention that is consistently negative would be that desirable, but I could be wrong.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on March 20, 2015, 01:58:44 pm
Simon had Lou Reynolds there on their behalf last night.  Their local PR rep didn’t even bother trot out their latest set of renderings.

Either Simon doesn’t have a clue about PR or this whole thing has been a charade to get a seat at the table with one of the other developments.  All they seem to have done so far is make enemies on the City Council, which ultimately decides the fate of this project.

It was good to see the participation last night from both the proponents and the critics of the development.  I’m glad to see people voicing their opinions on what we value in our city.

What's the point of going into that environment? It's not like there is any actual objectivity by those opposing the development. My fear is that there are litigation wheels turning.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Townsend on March 20, 2015, 02:19:11 pm
What's the point of going into that environment? It's not like there is any actual objectivity by those opposing the development. My fear is that there are litigation wheels turning.

Why do you have fear about litigation?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on March 20, 2015, 02:32:53 pm
Why do you have fear about litigation?

Losing. Perhaps the better question is why are you apparently not afraid? I read all the time in here about nut jobs and their 10 commandments/gay marriage issue and the costs to the taxpayers of litigating those matters. Where is that crowd on this subject

And I wonder how many people at that last meeting I saw video from would be willing to pony up the attorneys fees/costs/possible damages if litigation were to happen?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Breadburner on March 20, 2015, 02:41:59 pm
I will donate 1000.00 dollars to legal fees if thats what it takes to see that this mall is not built on turkey montain if it comes to that and challenge anyone to match it......


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on March 20, 2015, 02:50:26 pm
Losing. Perhaps the better question is why are you apparently not afraid? I read all the time in here about nut jobs and their 10 commandments/gay marriage issue and the costs to the taxpayers of litigating those matters. Where is that crowd on this subject

And I wonder how many people at that last meeting I saw video from would be willing to pony up the attorneys fees/costs/possible damages if litigation were to happen?

There is no litigation to take toward individuals opposing a zoning change.  Get serious.

The only thing actionable would be if someone directly tried to interfere with a contractual agreement between the buyer/seller or the proposed buyer and their potential tenants.  That is not happening, at least not anyone affiliated with TUWC.

Last I checked, advocating for smart development and zoning is not a crime, nor is it subject to civil penalty.

Simon is being quiet because what they have presented so far sucks.  They are trying to make it suck less.  What they have submitted so far cannot pass the zoning requirements at this time, per what their attorney and INCOG said the other night.  There are development recommendations in the Mooser Creek Watershed Study published in 2004 they may not be able to comply with at all and this may be moot.  Can they go back and sue planners and engineers of 10-12 years ago for preempting their Prada and Nike dreams?  

Would you say they have a cause to sue the YMCA because the YMCA has submitted to them a list of items they must address before they would approve of a zoning change?  Keep in mind, the Y has very real concerns about polluted stormwater run-off, erosion, light pollution, trash, sight lines, all actionable items in our zoning and permitting process.

From purely a PR perspective, a company like Simon would draw seriously bad PR on a national scale if they sued a bunch of individuals for opposing their zoning request.  That kind of PR is kryptonite to their investors and potential tenants.

Quote
What's the point of going into that environment? It's not like there is any actual objectivity by those opposing the development. My fear is that there are litigation wheels turning.

Their meeting Monday was considered “friendly territory” since it was only open to District 2 residents or invited guests.  Many thought residents of the west side want this due to prestige and jobs.  They still didn’t send anyone in from HQ for that one.  

The fact that corporate personnel had been meeting face-to-face with the Y and trail users and trail user groups has the risk of being more hostile.  You are literally asking people who you know oppose your project to sit down and tell you what they dislike about your project.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on March 20, 2015, 02:56:35 pm
I will donate 1000.00 dollars to legal fees if thats what it takes to see that this mall is not built on turkey montain if it comes to that and challenge anyone to match it......

THAT'S putting skin in the game. And I know a few others that would do the same. Proud of you.

I reread cynical's posts on this subject and was encouraged (okay, felt compelled) to look into these legal issues myself. Sufficed to say, "because zoning laws" which I have read repeatedly in this thread is not the end of any analysis.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Townsend on March 20, 2015, 03:00:07 pm
Losing. Perhaps the better question is why are you apparently not afraid? I read all the time in here about nut jobs and their 10 commandments/gay marriage issue and the costs to the taxpayers of litigating those matters. Where is that crowd on this subject

And I wonder how many people at that last meeting I saw video from would be willing to pony up the attorneys fees/costs/possible damages if litigation were to happen?

I generally don't blame the nut-jobs who are against marriage or the nut-jobs who want the 10 commandments somewhere...I blame the nut-job legislators who file bills or spend money on waste of time projects.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on March 20, 2015, 03:02:18 pm
There is no litigation to take toward individuals opposing a zoning change.  Get serious.


You get freaking serious. I didn't say a damned thing about the participants at these meetings. Right now, those opposing the development have every right to voice their objections, but at some point some government action could happen. That's what I am talking about. So for now, please feel free to be as pissed off as you like about private property owners deciding how they use their property.

/Rant over





Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on March 20, 2015, 03:06:27 pm
You get freaking serious. I didn't say a damned thing about the participants at these meetings. Right now, those opposing the development have every right to voice their objections, but at some point some government action could happen. That's what I am talking about. So for now, please feel free to be as pissed off as you like about private property owners deciding how they use their property.

/Rant over


You might want to be a little more clear when you start wringing your hands about litigation.  You made it sound as if they might be ready to sue a bunch of people to get their way.  Yes, they can appeal a denial of their zoning application at the council level in District Court.  Susan Miller of INCOG is not aware of an applicant ever doing so.  Here’s the flowchart of the process from INCOG:

(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/Screen%20Shot%202015-03-20%20at%203.01.23%20PM_zpswccyarmc.png)

Carry on.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Townsend on March 20, 2015, 03:10:12 pm
So for now, please feel free to be as pissed off as you like about private property owners deciding how they use their property.

/Rant over

You keep doing that thing where you don't mention the stakeholders.  This will effect much more than just the property owner.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on March 20, 2015, 04:11:34 pm
No I am not T. First, I have listened to people telling me repeatey what their entitlement/standing is to complain. And in this process. I have learned that one does not have to have one damned penny of their own invested in order to tell those that stand to make/lose possibly millions of dollars their business. Hell, how many in this forum even live in the district that is affected? Second, whether the people that own property at TM want to take on those who do not even pay so much as a user fee for TM is their choice. Finally, by all means, I encourage people to keep lecturing me on property law and zoning.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Townsend on March 20, 2015, 09:00:52 pm
No I am not T. First, I have listened to people telling me repeatey what their entitlement/standing is to complain. And in this process. I have learned that one does not have to have one damned penny of their own invested in order to tell those that stand to make/lose possibly millions of dollars their business. Hell, how many in this forum even live in the district that is affected? Second, whether the people that own property at TM want to take on those who do not even pay so much as a user fee for TM is their choice. Finally, by all means, I encourage people to keep lecturing me on property law and zoning.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP6DXoNKITc[/youtube]


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on March 20, 2015, 10:55:45 pm
Maybe Gone to Plaid, or just plain ol' gone nuclear. Maybe I am just angry over all the self-righteousness I am reading and seeing. Maybe I am thin skinned or hard headed.

I have let this issue percolate far too long. I wanted to not care about it, but my gosh, so many "creative" ways people have gone to run down an investment group has just maxed me out. The idea was to put an outlet mall on a piece of privately-owned property relatively close to an already existing massive development, which would be situated near several highways and away from congestion (like Promenade or Woodland Hills has). I also thought there would be jobs, a place for people to buy things perhaps less expensively, and an attraction for people throughout northeast Oklahoma to come and spend money both there and other businesses. But to some, Tulsa just can't have that. That piece of private property is just supposed to sit in its current state I guess, not because it is in the best interest of the owners but because its in the best interest of the non-owners.

Is anyone in this forum looking to bring this sort of economic activity to Tulsa? If so, let us know about it. Because I would love to know if they are being put through the wringer as well by special interest groups. See, maybe I am feeling better, I didn't say "selfish interest groups"...  :)


 


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: ZYX on March 20, 2015, 11:12:27 pm
Maybe Gone to Plaid, or just plain ol' gone nuclear. Maybe I am just angry over all the self-righteousness I am reading and seeing. Maybe I am thin skinned or hard headed.

I have let this issue percolate far too long. I wanted to not care about it, but my gosh, so many "creative" ways people have gone to run down an investment group has just maxed me out. The idea was to put an outlet mall on a piece of privately-owned property relatively close to an already existing massive development, which would be situated near several highways and away from congestion (like Promenade or Woodland Hills has). I also thought there would be jobs, a place for people to buy things perhaps less expensively, and an attraction for people throughout northeast Oklahoma to come and spend money both there and other businesses. But to some, Tulsa just can't have that. That piece of private property is just supposed to sit in its current state I guess, not because it is in the best interest of the owners but because its in the best interest of the non-owners.

Is anyone in this forum looking to bring this sort of economic activity to Tulsa? If so, let us know about it. Because I would love to know if they are being put through the wringer as well by special interest groups. See, maybe I am feeling better, I didn't say "selfish interest groups"...  :)


 

No one here has said that we can't have that.

Look, if your opinion is that this should go through no questions asked, then great. Your opinion is backed by your law experience, and you have much more knowledge of the legalities of the situation than I. But for you to act like there is nothing at play here other than a group of people blocking the rights of a landowner to do as he pleases with his property is disingenuous. There is more at stake. I'd list it out, but it's already been done multiple times in this thread. You know the counter argument, and you are choosing to ignore it.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: guido911 on March 20, 2015, 11:32:51 pm
No one here has said that we can't have that.

Look, if your opinion is that this should go through no questions asked, then great. Your opinion is backed by your law experience, and you have much more knowledge of the legalities of the situation than I. But for you to act like there is nothing at play here other than a group of people blocking the rights of a landowner to do as he pleases with his property is disingenuous. There is more at stake. I'd list it out, but it's already been done multiple times in this thread. You know the counter argument, and you are choosing to ignore it.

I never said "no questions asked". Read up about two posts where I say people have the right to voice concern. Even if this in my opinion nothing more than NIMBY (except that some of the folks pissed off are piggy-backing off of someone else's "backyard").

The only "law" thing I am bringing into this equation was triggered by a well thought out and reasoned analysis provided by cynical, which has largely been overlooked. After reading ad nauseum about Simon's behavior in this forum and other places, I have decided to take a look cynical's position to really learn what is at stake and what could happen. I encourage you to look back at his/her post and do the same.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: ZYX on March 21, 2015, 12:10:36 am
I never said "no questions asked". Read up about two posts where I say people have the right to voice concern. Even if this in my opinion nothing more than NIMBY (except that some of the folks pissed off are piggy-backing off of someone else's "backyard").

The only "law" thing I am bringing into this equation was triggered by a well thought out and reasoned analysis provided by cynical, which has largely been overlooked. After reading ad nauseum about Simon's behavior in this forum and other places, I have decided to take a look cynical's position to really learn what is at stake and what could happen. I encourage you to look back at his/her post and do the same.

I have read all of cynical's posts, and appreciate his/her contributions.

To be honest, I really don't know what can legally be done on either side. If someone who owns adjacent property to yours builds something on that land that then causes your own property to flood every time it rains, do you have any legal standing against them?

Really, I couldn't care less what the landowner wants to build on their land, if it would only affect their property. Sure, it would suck to lose the trails, but that's the cost when the trails are on private property. But an outlet mall will greatly affect the surrounding land, counter to the current and intended future use. To me, it is just like someone building an office building in a residential sub-division. It is that far out of place.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: RecycleMichael on March 21, 2015, 06:36:45 am
I am opposed to the outlet mall. I feel this way about all malls.  Workers should be given all uniforms for free.

Enough with your misguided individuality and capitalism.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on March 21, 2015, 05:10:02 pm
I never said "no questions asked". Read up about two posts where I say people have the right to voice concern. Even if this in my opinion nothing more than NIMBY (except that some of the folks pissed off are piggy-backing off of someone else's "backyard").

The only "law" thing I am bringing into this equation was triggered by a well thought out and reasoned analysis provided by cynical, which has largely been overlooked. After reading ad nauseum about Simon's behavior in this forum and other places, I have decided to take a look cynical's position to really learn what is at stake and what could happen. I encourage you to look back at his/her post and do the same.

What Cynical expressed in terms of litigation has not happened at any point in anyone else’s recent memory.  The only two remedies the proposed property buyer has legally is to petition to district court if the council rejects TMAPC’s recommendation on the zoning change.  Or if it’s clear someone interfered with a legal contract.  I’d hope they would sue anyone who would do that.  If they sue over the refusal to grant the zoning change, they do so at their own peril.  After all the public outcry, there is little doubt the present property owners will profit nicely.  No one wants to deal with the next potential buyer. 

Have you downloaded the three page pdf of the YMCA’s conditions for them to support how Simon could be a good neighbor and reviewed it?  Their thoughts are very well developed and actually in line with Simon’s own investor propaganda claiming how they have this circle of accountability.  You should read it some time.  Or in the alternative, take me up on my standing offer to come out for a few hours with CF and I some day.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: RecycleMichael on March 21, 2015, 06:29:08 pm
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/ymca-opposes-mall-development-without-concessions/article_2261e7a9-dff8-598f-8604-39314210e200.html

YMCA opposes mall development without concessions
Its board writes a letter outlining its conditions.

One neighbor of the proposed outlet mall near the Turkey Mountain Urban Wilderness Area has made its opinion known.
The YMCA of Greater Tulsa Board of Directors will not support the construction of the proposed mall if the development does not include some of the board’s recommendations for the project, according to a letter the YMCA provided to city councilors.

The proposed mall at 61st Street and U.S. 75 would be built directly north of the Westside YMCA summer camp. The camp serves approximately 3,600 young people a year.

“We are committed to protect a valuable and unique urban wilderness experience for children today, and for generations to come,” the letter states. “For this reason the YMCA requests that certain conditions and requirements be included in the development plan that will achieve the goal of lessening the impact on our children.”

The letter lists 10 requests from the YMCA board, including that the Mooser Creek watershed be “least disturbed.”

Other requests of the developer include:

Leaving a 13-acre buffer zone undisturbed

Developing a storm-water management plan to meet the needs of the mall and improve the quality of the water in the YMCA’s upper pond, Lake Logan, and water drainage into Mooser Creek.

Paying for periodic testing of pond and lake water at the YMCA property.

Eliminating all views of the mall from anywhere on YMCA property.

Changing minimum setback requirements from 100 feet to 700 feet on the north boundary of the mall and from 20 feet to 300 feet on the east boundary.

Changing the maximum allowed building height from 85 feet to 35 feet.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: ZYX on March 21, 2015, 11:08:06 pm
What Cynical expressed in terms of litigation has not happened at any point in anyone else’s recent memory.  The only two remedies the proposed property buyer has legally is to petition to district court if the council rejects TMAPC’s recommendation on the zoning change.  Or if it’s clear someone interfered with a legal contract.  I’d hope they would sue anyone who would do that.  If they sue over the refusal to grant the zoning change, they do so at their own peril.  After all the public outcry, there is little doubt the present property owners will profit nicely.  No one wants to deal with the next potential buyer. 

Have you downloaded the three page pdf of the YMCA’s conditions for them to support how Simon could be a good neighbor and reviewed it?  Their thoughts are very well developed and actually in line with Simon’s own investor propaganda claiming how they have this circle of accountability.  You should read it some time.  Or in the alternative, take me up on my standing offer to come out for a few hours with CF and I some day.



Could you link me to the letter from the Y? I'd like to read it.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on March 22, 2015, 10:11:44 am
Could you link me to the letter from the Y? I'd like to read it.

Link has disappeared from from the TW site.  I’m pretty sure I saved the .pdf.  I’ll post it later.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: RecycleMichael on March 22, 2015, 03:44:25 pm
http://www.tulsaworld.com/letter-from-ymca-of-greater-tulsa-to-simon-group-outlet/pdf_8eb9ef2a-23b2-5367-ac0f-2d6fb406f07a.html


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: ZYX on March 22, 2015, 07:40:32 pm
Thanks!


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: PonderInc on March 24, 2015, 08:14:31 pm
It's not just about a private property owner doing what they want with their land. That would be true if it had no negative impacts on adjoining properties AND if there were no costs to the public. So if the developer wants to pay for all necessary roads, water, and sewer infrastructure (construction and long-term maintenance) as well as all fire and police services needed to operate their mall without public support, go for it.

But that is not on the table. There are enormous public costs associated with sprawl and greenfield development, and Tulsa cannot afford it. Sprawl only appears to work because the original infrastructure is typically built by the developer and it doesn't require much maintenance for the first 25 years. When things begin to crumble at the 25 year mark, the city discovers that they have not raised enough revenue from the development to pay for the repairs. So they tap into new revenue from new sprawl to pay for the old sprawl. We can't sustain this pattern bc the math doesn't work.  As Chuck Marohn from Strong Towns says: "If you lose money on every transaction, you don't make it up in volume."

This development is even dumber bc the developer doesn't want to provide the initial infrastructure. They want a tif to pay for it. So we will "pay" for it in lost taxes initially (the tif would freeze taxes at the current unimproved level, so our kids won't even benefit from increased tax revenue for schools--they'll get roads and interchanges and signalized intersections they can't afford to maintain in a place they don't want), and then we'll keep paying and paying from then on. Long after the developer makes their money and abandons the site. No thank you.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: TheArtist on March 24, 2015, 10:20:13 pm
It's not just about a private property owner doing what they want with their land. That would be true if it had no negative impacts on adjoining properties AND if there were no costs to the public. So if the developer wants to pay for all necessary roads, water, and sewer infrastructure (construction and long-term maintenance) as well as all fire and police services needed to operate their mall without public support, go for it.

But that is not on the table. There are enormous public costs associated with sprawl and greenfield development, and Tulsa cannot afford it. Sprawl only appears to work because the original infrastructure is typically built by the developer and it doesn't require much maintenance for the first 25 years. When things begin to crumble at the 25 year mark, the city discovers that they have not raised enough revenue from the development to pay for the repairs. So they tap into new revenue from new sprawl to pay for the old sprawl. We can't sustain this pattern bc the math doesn't work.  As Chuck Marohn from Strong Towns says: "If you lose money on every transaction, you don't make it up in volume."

This development is even dumber bc the developer doesn't want to provide the initial infrastructure. They want a tif to pay for it. So we will "pay" for it in lost taxes initially (the tif would freeze taxes at the current unimproved level, so our kids won't even benefit from increased tax revenue for schools--they'll get roads and interchanges and signalized intersections they can't afford to maintain in a place they don't want), and then we'll keep paying and paying from then on. Long after the developer makes their money and abandons the site. No thank you.


Very well said.  I have not weighed in on this topic yet for I haven't really felt any connection to the issue.  I do have a lot of friends who feel very strongly about it which has put me in the position of just keeping my mouth shut lol. Frankly I am not a "naturey" type person so don't really care about it from that perspective.  Tulsa is a tiny speck in an ocean of trees, fields, rivers, lakes, etc. so I don't see it as a "oh we got to protect these trees and animals living in this spot of land type of thing. However, would like to see more smaller parks, and bike trails that could be bike transit corridors, but this isn't that.

But with your post, that makes sense to me. That hits my "I want to see more pedestrian lively, healthy, happy, urban development, more efficient and cost effective land use, more efficient, transit versus auto use, etc." sensibilities.   

Couple points I have recently ran across that go to this, and to how we develop our cities.  "Studies have now shown that, cities that have more people walking and biking have more happier healthier people.  People who live in cities where more people bike and walk are happier than those who live in cities where more people drive, they also live longer and are healthier.  Some new studies have shown that suicides are more than DOUBLE in suburban type areas versus urban areas.  (did some hunting around last year and discovered that more people kill themselves in South Tulsa, than are murdered in all of the rest of Tulsa combined)  Another study has shown that people who are around lots of other people are less depressed than those who are not. That works even for those who "say" they don't like being around lots of people and even if they aren't actually interacting with them. And yes, being around nature boosts your health and happiness. A well designed city can have both great urban development and nature mixed in.  All of the above seem to be pointing in similar directions and coming to similar conclusions.


We live in a city that has a constant low level droning of stress and discomfort.  And we don't even realize it. It seems to be just the way it is to most people, and from their perspective, natural.  I remember coming back from London and being shocked at how lifeless and devoid life seemed here in comparison. Interestingly enough I actually found more quiet, peaceful, beautiful areas with trees and gardens there than here, while at the same time being moments away from of all sorts of incredible wonderful things to see and do.  Our built environment effects our lives, our living, far more than most of us realize. It doesn't just effect our health and happiness, it also effects our pocket book as Ponder pointed out.




Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on March 25, 2015, 08:38:48 am
It’s auto-centric and not pedestrian-friendly.  Nor are the proposed connections to it.  That’s all you need to know.  ;)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AquaMan on March 26, 2015, 10:27:41 am
Some organizations and cities are forever destined to be lower performing without drastic leadership changes in critical positions or catastrophe. For instance our reputation for a model flood management systems stemmed from those terrible floods back in the late seventies/early eighties. A friend of mine often reminds me, "We are fixer personalities. We are attracted to these places because we know we can be contributors in their repair. But the truth is we can't fix them. They don't want to be fixed. They don't even admit they need fixing and certainly not by the likes of us!" Its sobering but he's right. Many of us simply are passing time, waiting for opportunity. Others just leave in favor of higher consciousness communities.

So, we have TPS, we have DHS, we have Dewey and we have that low level drone of stress and discomfort of which Artist speaks.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 27, 2015, 08:57:29 am
Very well said.  I have not weighed in on this topic yet for I haven't really felt any connection to the issue.  I do have a lot of friends who feel very strongly about it which has put me in the position of just keeping my mouth shut lol. Frankly I am not a "naturey" type person so don't really care about it from that perspective.  Tulsa is a tiny speck in an ocean of trees, fields, rivers, lakes, etc. so I don't see it as a "oh we got to protect these trees and animals living in this spot of land type of thing. However, would like to see more smaller parks, and bike trails that could be bike transit corridors, but this isn't that.

But with your post, that makes sense to me. That hits my "I want to see more pedestrian lively, healthy, happy, urban development, more efficient and cost effective land use, more efficient, transit versus auto use, etc." sensibilities.   

Couple points I have recently ran across that go to this, and to how we develop our cities.  "Studies have now shown that, cities that have more people walking and biking have more happier healthier people.  People who live in cities where more people bike and walk are happier than those who live in cities where more people drive, they also live longer and are healthier.  Some new studies have shown that suicides are more than DOUBLE in suburban type areas versus urban areas.  (did some hunting around last year and discovered that more people kill themselves in South Tulsa, than are murdered in all of the rest of Tulsa combined)  Another study has shown that people who are around lots of other people are less depressed than those who are not. That works even for those who "say" they don't like being around lots of people and even if they aren't actually interacting with them. And yes, being around nature boosts your health and happiness. A well designed city can have both great urban development and nature mixed in.  All of the above seem to be pointing in similar directions and coming to similar conclusions.


We live in a city that has a constant low level droning of stress and discomfort.  And we don't even realize it. It seems to be just the way it is to most people, and from their perspective, natural.  I remember coming back from London and being shocked at how lifeless and devoid life seemed here in comparison. Interestingly enough I actually found more quiet, peaceful, beautiful areas with trees and gardens there than here, while at the same time being moments away from of all sorts of incredible wonderful things to see and do.  Our built environment effects our lives, our living, far more than most of us realize. It doesn't just effect our health and happiness, it also effects our pocket book as Ponder pointed out.





Excellent!!


Back in the 70's, the American Theater Company here in town had the Joyce Martel show and one of the songs - I think it was called "Southern Hills" - pointed out just what you are talking about for south Tulsa, using Southern Hills as the focal point, but it also applied to the rest of suburbia.  This phenomenon goes back a long, long time! 

We don't seem able to break the cycle for whatever reason.  We live in the most beautiful part of the state - northeast Oklahoma.  We have a lot of the 'texture' and feel of some of the Ozarks - in town and around the area - without the elevation.  We have massive water related recreational opportunities in the area.  We have a great trails system but could use more camping possibilities both in/near town and surrounding.  Maybe a "significant" walking/biking/hiking/fishing park every square mile or two throughout the city as a neighborhood focal point?



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Stanley1 on March 27, 2015, 05:10:13 pm


The proposed mall at 61st Street and U.S. 75 would be built directly north of the Westside YMCA summer camp. The camp serves approximately 3,600 young people a year.

Uhh.....no it wouldn't.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: BKDotCom on March 27, 2015, 07:41:12 pm
Uhh.....no it wouldn't.

I think they meant the other north


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AquaMan on March 28, 2015, 06:15:06 pm

Excellent!!


Back in the 70's, the American Theater Company here in town had the Joyce Martel show and one of the songs - I think it was called "Southern Hills" - pointed out just what you are talking about for south Tulsa, using Southern Hills as the focal point, but it also applied to the rest of suburbia.  This phenomenon goes back a long, long time! 

We don't seem able to break the cycle for whatever reason.  We live in the most beautiful part of the state - northeast Oklahoma.  We have a lot of the 'texture' and feel of some of the Ozarks - in town and around the area - without the elevation.  We have massive water related recreational opportunities in the area.  We have a great trails system but could use more camping possibilities both in/near town and surrounding.  Maybe a "significant" walking/biking/hiking/fishing park every square mile or two throughout the city as a neighborhood focal point?



We need the Martels now more than ever. This city needs a sense of humor.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 30, 2015, 01:30:29 pm
We need the Martels now more than ever. This city needs a sense of humor.


The city didn't have much of a sense of humor then, either... American Theater Company was at best considered kind of a harmless "lunatic fringe" group - at worst, subversives!  They were great!!   Still are....  They didn't make any really close friends with Joyce Martel in the Powers-that-be structure of Tulsa.  Did receive begrudging support from that structure just so they wouldn't appear to be too petty.

I remember one of the shows that was on a roof downtown - can't remember which one - IIRC it was a Martel show.  Clayton Vaughn the newscaster was in the audience a couple rows in front of us.  During the show, there was a "cannon" set off that absolutely blasted downtown, echoing through the walls of the buildings.  Pretty cool.  My soon to be born daughter was still 'cooking' at about 8 months (mid 70's) - she jumped very strongly and didn't calm down for a quite a while....



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cannon_fodder on March 30, 2015, 05:17:21 pm
This isn't a coherent post. I've been working on trial prep all weekend. So my brain is fried. This is merely a free writing exercise. . .

I have let this issue percolate far too long.

Percolate? You were commenting on this before it even had it's own thread! When the outlet mall had its own thread started, you commented in it an hour later.

Quote
I wanted to not care about it, but my gosh, so many "creative" ways people have gone to run down an investment group has just maxed me out.

Why do you care about it? You've stated that you don't go to outlet malls. You don't go to Turkey Mountain. But hot-damn, citizens using due process to influence city leaders against a foreign corporation - hell no! How dare you citizens think you have a voice in government. When "investment group" demands something from government, they better give in!

Quote
...away from congestion (like Promenade or Woodland Hills has).

Please go to Tulsa Hills sometime. That area is usually worse than 41st and Yale.

Quote
I also thought there would be jobs, a place for people to buy things perhaps less expensively, and an attraction for people throughout northeast Oklahoma to come and spend money both there and other businesses.

Jobs!  JOBS!  Damn it, do you hear me, JOBS! Sure, most will be minimum wage and people that work there will be eligible for welfare and food stamps, but JOBS! Of course, if the outlet mall went in anywhere else the same jobs would be provided, but jobs! Also, yeah yeah, an outlet mall would likely be a net loss to the economy as items manufactured to be crap are marked up 300% and the profits filtered out of Tulsa, but JOBS!

An outlet mall isn't special. You can get the Nike outlet crap in Branson, OKC, Little Rock, Lake of the Ozarks, Bentonville... I imagine Coach and Michael Kors have similar locations. The days of an "Outlet Mall" being a real tourist draw are long since dead. This is like Tulsa getting a Hard Rock Casino or a Jimmy Buffet... the brand has been diluted.

Quote
But to some, Tulsa just can't have that. That piece of private property is just supposed to sit in its current state I guess, not because it is in the best interest of the owners but because its in the best interest of the non-owners.

At least you seem to understand the concept of "best interest," though the term is actually "best use." It has been discussed ad naseum around here. In fact, it is largely what Tulsa Now is all about. We have "plans" and set up "zoning" to put those "plans" into action. Sometimes people want a variance on those plans - and when they do they have to request a variance, ask for public input, and then seek leave for their change. The municipality has broad discretion to deny any such change - including if the community simply doesn't support it.

That's called representative government. Couple that with smart development and we may have cities that are not massively subsidized urban sprawl, pretend "exclusive" subdivisions, and gated communities. There's a reason Tulsa continues to sprawl, continues to bring in more revenue, and continues to be broke. Sprawl is very expensive.

Which brings me to another point:

THEY WANT HANDOUTS. Infrastructure is expensive. WE are to loan them the money, interest free, on the promise that the tax money they will owe us can be used to pay for the improvements. That's like someone offering to let me stay at their house for free, if I promise to build them a house first. Oh, and when the house needs a new roof - I pay for that too.

Look - tax revenue is important. But we keep getting MORE and MORE tax revenue and we keep finding ourselves in a hole. Adding more TIF sponsored retail sprawl isn't solving the problem.

Jobs are important, at all levels. But not at the price they are asking. These jobs added anywhere do the same thing. If Simon doesn't do it, someone else will. They want the market, they want the shoppers. They want the earnings.

Quote
Is anyone in this forum looking to bring this sort of economic activity to Tulsa? If so, let us know about it. Because I would love to know if they are being put through the wringer as well by special interest groups.

If you loan me $60-70mil, interest free, I promise to to risk 0.3% of my net assets towards creating as many jobs as possible and paying as much in tax money as I can. I will write you the check for the entire investment, to put in escrow, tomorrow. Millions for giant corporations and insiders, not a penny for small businesses or the infrastructure they depend on (including education)!

And finally - the "neighbor" of this development is a public park, a YMCA, and a watershed. Those neighbors have rights. A 6 story wall would not be tolerated by any neighbor. As a neighbor of a public park, they answer to the park using community (those would be the worthless free loaders, aka taxpayers and citizens, you keep talking about). Just like "private property" owners can't run liquor stores or whorehouses wherever they please - you can't slap an outlet mall wherever you like.

Deny the mall. Buy the property. The City is a better place and the speculator gets paid (by the way, when you buy real estate for speculation, and your plan relies on getting the zoning changed and utilizing land that City maps label as parkland... you are taking a risk. Hence, why it is called land speculation).


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 30, 2015, 08:23:24 pm
This isn't a coherent post. I've been working on trial prep all weekend. So my brain is fried. This is merely a free writing exercise. . .


Deny the mall. Buy the property. The City is a better place and the speculator gets paid (by the way, when you buy real estate for speculation, and your plan relies on getting the zoning changed and utilizing land that City maps label as parkland... you are taking a risk. Hence, why it is called land speculation).



Plenty coherent!!


Land speculation....hmm...where have we heard about that ad nauseum??  Oh, yeah - when Billy Bob and Hillary tried to do a land investment thing a few years ago - the RWRE STILL hasn't let go of it!  What is this now...over 20 years or so??  And yet, when a large multi-national corporation does it...well, that's deserving of government subsidies!!

Well, if one can consider Canada and Puerto Rico as "mult-national"...





Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on March 30, 2015, 10:27:15 pm
Great post, CF!

As per the Tulsa World, Simon has now requested their zoning application be heard on June 17.

Based on where their competitors stand, I suspect this will never happen.

Not in this location.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AngieB on March 31, 2015, 07:10:17 am
Great post, CF!

As per the Tulsa World, Simon has now requested their zoning application be heard on June 17.

Based on where their competitors stand, I suspect this will never happen.

Not in this location.
I hope and pray you are right!!


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: carltonplace on March 31, 2015, 07:34:50 am
Great post, CF!

As per the Tulsa World, Simon has now requested their zoning application be heard on June 17.

Based on where their competitors stand, I suspect this will never happen.

Not in this location.

The public input meeting has been pushed 30 days as well.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rdj on March 31, 2015, 08:33:01 am
Great post, CF!

As per the Tulsa World, Simon has now requested their zoning application be heard on June 17.

Based on where their competitors stand, I suspect this will never happen.

Not in this location.

I'm still hearing that Horizon isn't close at all to doing anything.  It is the Cherokee based mall where this retail will go...if it goes anywhere.  With layoffs and continued depression in the energy market the Tulsa retail market on the surface isn't looking so hot.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AngieB on March 31, 2015, 09:29:42 am
The public input meeting has been pushed 30 days as well.
What public input meeting?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on March 31, 2015, 10:19:43 am
What public input meeting?

That should be the TMAPC meeting on June 17 where they will accept public comment.  This would now mean the Council would not hear this until mid-July.  If the rumors on Cherokee ground breaking in mid-April are true, this would put Simon at least three months behind, probably further.

MC is still planning to attend the April 15 one, just to make sure “they suddenly got their smile together.”  It’s the old “Trust but verify” thing.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AngieB on March 31, 2015, 02:15:41 pm
That should be the TMAPC meeting on June 17 where they will accept public comment.  This would now mean the Council would not hear this until mid-July.  If the rumors on Cherokee ground breaking in mid-April are true, this would put Simon at least three months behind, probably further.

MC is still planning to attend the April 15 one, just to make sure “they suddenly got their smile together.”  It’s the old “Trust but verify” thing.


I thought he meant some *other* meeting. Yes, it was pushed 30 days, now it's 90 days from the original March date. Good idea to show up on April 15.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: PonderInc on March 31, 2015, 09:35:44 pm
It seems like a lot of contentious zoning applications follow a similar pattern: 1)The developers will ask for multiple postponements. This helps disrupt the opposition because average citizens have day jobs, and we can only miss work to attend day meetings so many times. 2) Schedule applications to come before the TMAPC in August, when most people are taking their summer vacations or racing around helping their kids get ready for school. This is my pet conspiracy theory. I have no scientific proof, but I've seen it deployed to minimize opposition on several bad PUDs / PUD amendments.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AngieB on April 01, 2015, 07:33:09 am
It seems like a lot of contentious zoning applications follow a similar pattern: 1)The developers will ask for multiple postponements. This helps disrupt the opposition because average citizens have day jobs, and we can only miss work to attend day meetings so many times. 2) Schedule applications to come before the TMAPC in August, when most people are taking their summer vacations or racing around helping their kids get ready for school. This is my pet conspiracy theory. I have no scientific proof, but I've seen it deployed to minimize opposition on several bad PUDs / PUD amendments.

If that is their plan, they are underestimating those involved with the opposition.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: PonderInc on April 16, 2015, 12:32:24 pm
Was anyone else confused by the TW article about the Simon outlet mall?  It sounds like they could go ahead and build their outlet mall on the proposed site under current zoning, except that their proposal exceeds the max building height allowed.

The current zoning allows 65' maximum building height, and Simon wants 85'.  Is it just me, or is that pretty ridiculous for an outlet mall?  Are they wanting to include a multi-story hotel on the property, too?

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/current-zoning-allows-for-development-larger-than-proposed-mall-near/article_a801328c-13d5-5778-b378-24a227e0948f.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/current-zoning-allows-for-development-larger-than-proposed-mall-near/article_a801328c-13d5-5778-b378-24a227e0948f.html)

By KEVIN CANFIELD World Staff Writer
The proposed outlet mall near Turkey Mountain would be smaller than what is currently allowed under the property’s existing zoning, according to Planning Commission records.

Simon Property Group has proposed building Tulsa Premium Outlets on the northeast corner of U.S. 75 and 61st Street. The company’s zoning application to the Planning Commission requests 900,000 square feet of floor area for the property but the mall itself would include only 350,000 square feet of floor area.

The City Council in 2008 approved zoning for 37.3 acres of mixed-use development that would allow for approximately 900,000 square feet of floor area. Approximately 300,000 square feet of floor area would be allowed on an adjacent 10.9-acre lot zoned commercial and office.

The proposed outlet mall and the zoning currently approved for the site would cover the same 48.2 acres with an identical 13.3-acre buffer along the north and east property boundaries.

The buffer was the result of negotiations between the Westside YMCA and the property owner when the existing zoning for the 51 acres was approved in 2008.

Even with the buffer zone, the development site and the YMCA property to the north is separated by only 203 feet.

One significant difference between the proposed outlet mall and the existing approved uses is the maximum building height allowed.

Simon has requested a maximum height of 85 feet; the current zoning allows a maximum height of 65 feet.
Simon has stated it plans to build a tiered, natural buffer that would blend into the wilderness setting.
The YMCA of Greater Tulsa board of directors, however, remains skeptical of the proposal and has said it would not support the project unless certain demands are met.

They include reducing the maximum allowed building height from 85 feet to 35 feet and eliminating all views of the mall from anywhere on the YMCA property.

Simon’s application proposes the construction of a mall only, though other uses would be allowed. The existing zoning would allow hotels, multi-family structures, retail stores, offices and warehouses.

Simon recently requested a second continuance of its hearing before the Planning Commission. The hearing was originally scheduled for March 18, but the developer asked that it be rescheduled to April 15.

The latest request, which must be approved by the Planning Commission, seeks to have the hearing moved to June 17.

The proposed mall has drawn strong criticism from advocates for Turkey Mountain, who argue that the project would damage the popular wilderness area.

Supporters of the proposal say it would provide quality shopping and increase the city’s sales-tax base.

The development proposal approved by the City Council in 2008 was never constructed. Zoning designation remains with the property, not the applicant.

Simon did not respond to an email seeking comment.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on April 16, 2015, 12:43:55 pm
The 85’ they are asking for is for a sign standard along highway 75.  The confusing part of their application, as previously submitted, had a provision for hotel/motel type space on the property, though their overlay does not show any such structure.

It’s entirely possible they could be re-tooling to take advantage of the existing zoning.  It’s also been rumored they are looking at a 75 acre site down near Jenks.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: PonderInc on April 16, 2015, 02:29:03 pm
Really?  An 85' tall SIGN?  Do they really need a sign that's larger than the Golden Driller? That's just dumb... and obnoxious.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 16, 2015, 02:50:43 pm
Not confusing at all, the reporter was fed some information and worked it into pre existing g storiess while ignoring a ton of other facts - like the fact that an outlet mall is not an approved use under current zoning or that they want public money for their project.

Lazy reporting probably fed to him by someone. Reporters have to pump out stories, some are bound to be fluff. In this instance, I'm not sure there was any news reported in the article.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on April 16, 2015, 02:55:55 pm
Not confusing at all, the reporter was fed some information and worked it into pre existing g storiess while ignoring a ton of other facts - like the fact that an outlet mall is not an approved use under current zoning or that they want public money for their project.

Lazy reporting probably fed to him by someone. Reporters have to pump out stories, some are bound to be fluff. In this instance, I'm not sure there was any news reported in the article.

One of two pieces handed to him by Clay Bird, JMO.  Canfield works the City Hall beat.

In all fairness, Kevin has given the anti mall movement a good deal more column inches than the pro side.  It’s always good to make sure you are covering all sides.

We spent 1 1/2 hours with James Gibbard from the TW rolling footage last Friday for their blog.  He covered a few new angles, I’ll be interested to see how it edits out.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on April 16, 2015, 02:56:55 pm
Really?  An 85' tall SIGN?  Do they really need a sign that's larger than the Golden Driller? That's just dumb... and obnoxious.

Gotta be able to see it from I-44 ya know.

If they were to build somewhere with more intuitive access, ahem, they wouldn’t need such a structure.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 16, 2015, 03:32:22 pm
Really?  An 85' tall SIGN?  Do they really need a sign that's larger than the Golden Driller? That's just dumb... and obnoxious.


Simon...Malls.



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http://www.greenparrot.com/key-west-webcams/



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on April 16, 2015, 06:14:57 pm
The YMCA of Greater Tulsa board of directors, however, remains skeptical of the proposal and has said it would not support the project unless certain demands are met.

They include reducing the maximum allowed building height from 85 feet to 35 feet and eliminating all views of the mall from anywhere on the YMCA property.

(http://images.rapgenius.com/6rq0ojg8xueni3fudroffus11.400x247x1.jpg)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: patric on April 16, 2015, 06:28:39 pm
Gotta be able to see it from I-44 ya know.

If they were to build somewhere with more intuitive access, ahem, they wouldn’t need such a structure.

Maybe there will be a nice animated video of Turkey Mountain to make up for the blocked view of Turkey Mountain.

(http://www.cantopled.com/images/P10%20outdoor%20billboard1.jpg)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on April 16, 2015, 09:11:43 pm
Well played!

(http://images.rapgenius.com/6rq0ojg8xueni3fudroffus11.400x247x1.jpg)

Maybe there will be a nice animated video of Turkey Mountain to make up for the blocked view of Turkey Mountain.

(http://www.cantopled.com/images/P10%20outdoor%20billboard1.jpg)

There is a lovely LED sign on the west side of 75 heading south.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: PonderInc on April 17, 2015, 11:37:44 am
The poorly written TW article inspired me to do some research of my own.  So, sorry if this is redundant and has been covered previously.

Here's the current zoning:
(http://www.accidentalurbanist.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Proposed-Outlet-Mall-Site-Current-Zoning.jpg)

It's a mixture of Corridor, Commercial Shopping, Office Light, and Agricultural.

Outlet malls / shopping centers (and hotels and a bunch of other stuff) are allowed as a "use by right" under CO and CS zoning.  The OL area is minuscule and the AG is just a sliver around the edges of the lot in question. (The picture shows a much bigger area.)

CS zoning does not have a maximum building height.  In CO districts, max building height depends on the criteria approved in the Corridor Development Plan established for that CO land. There's not a lot of specifics in the zoning code.  It's sort of like an enormous PUD--in that the developer basically proposes their own customized zoning for an area--except a Corridor Development Plan frees them from the pesky underlying zoning restrictions that remain with a PUD.

Corridor districts also require a Site Plan Review (prior to any building permits).  This ensures the development will be built in accordance with the provisions of the approved Development Plan.

I don't know if a Corridor Development Plan was ever approved for the existing CO zoned area.  However, Simon was requesting to rezone the CS and OL areas to CO and then get a Corridor Development Plan approved for the entire site.

The original application indicated a proposed maximum building height of 85' and a sign that was 90' tall.  It also specifically mentioned a 300,000 SF hotel not to exceed 10 acres of the site.  I would certainly assume that this is where the 85' proposed max building height comes into play.

Anyway, that's my English major analysis of the zoning and the application from February.  If anyone wants to correct anything I got wrong, go for it.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on May 09, 2015, 05:22:55 pm
And now there’s this development:  People putting their money where their mouth is.  Tulsa Urban Wilderness Coalition now has 501(c)(3) status and an account with the Tulsa Community Foundation.

There’s been multiple rumors swirling for the last few weeks that Simon may be looking elsewhere, but nothing has been confirmed and their zoning hearing is still on TMAPC’s calendar for June 17.

Quote
Organizers of an effort to keep commercial development off Turkey Mountain have taken steps to add legitimacy and financing to their mission.

The Tulsa Urban Wilderness Coalition has been awarded formal nonprofit status and is launching fundraising efforts to preserve land near the River Parks Turkey Mountain Urban Wilderness Area.

The group’s 501©(3) designation will allow donors to make tax-exempt contributions toward its efforts to acquire and preserve public green space.
A donation account at the Tulsa Community Foundation and an online Go Fund Me account have been created.

“The account with TCF gives our coalition financial credibility and donors confidence they are donating to a sound and reputable organization,” said Erin Schuster, a member of the coalition’s finance committee.

The organization plans to use the money raised to purchase land for long-term preservation. Its top priority is acquiring a privately owned, 60-acre tract along the western flank of the urban wilderness area.

The Turkey Mountain trails, which are used by runners, hikers, bicyclists and horseback riders, spill out of the River Parks property onto private land, including the property where developers plan to build an outlet mall.

“Our first priority from Day 1 was to try to stop the development on Turkey Mountain,” said Colin Tawdry(sic) :o, the coalition’s coordinator of government affairs. “Our second priority has been to purchase the land and finally end the threat of commercial development on Turkey Mountain for good.”

The coalition was formed in response to the proposed outlet mall.

Tulsa Premium Outlets would cover more than 48 acres at U.S. 75 and 61st Street and would include more than 350,000 square feet of leasable space.
Simon Property Group, owner of Woodland Hills Mall, announced plans to build the upscale outlet mall last year.

Critics of the proposal are concerned that the mall would encroach on the trails and spoil the wilderness setting of Turkey Mountain.

“We noted from the beginning this site had numerous challenges to the sort of development which was proposed, including issues of public interest and safety,” Tawney said. “The public made their voices heard and forced Simon Properties back to the drawing board.”

A hearing for Simon’s proposed zoning change application before the Planning Commission is set for June 17. The hearing originally was set for March 18; however, the developer asked that it be postponed first to April 15 and then until June.

“I believe Simon may be at the point of realizing the odds are stacked against them enough they won’t get the zoning changes they need to proceed,” Tawney said. “If they abandon their plans for this site, we have to be prepared to spring into action immediately.”

In a December press release announcing plans for the mall, Mark Silvestri, chief operating officer of Simon Premium Outlets, said the company had already received strong interest from retailers who have “enjoyed great success with us around the country and are very anxious to be with us in Tulsa.”

“We are optimistic our premium outlet will be equally supported by the market,” Silvestri said in the release.

The land targeted for the mall is already zoned for commercial use. For its current plans, however, Simon needs the Planning Commission to change the zoning.

“We don’t want someone else to slip in and try to develop it,” Tawney said.

The Tulsa Community Foundation is affiliated with the George Kaiser Family Foundation, which owns 139 acres on Turkey Mountain. The Kaiser property is not the acreage on which the mall is planned.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/tulsa-urban-wilderness-coalition-gets-nonprofit-status-raising-funds-to/article_ccb0c66a-ab59-5ea7-bb15-f094d52a0236.html#user-comment-area


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: SXSW on May 12, 2015, 08:39:28 am
Land swap discussed with Simon taking Bales Park across the highway and the City taking the Turkey Mountain property.  http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/location-option-discussed-in-talks-about-proposed-outlet-mall-near/article_a131be24-0cf5-5e6e-a60d-75656c1295da.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/location-option-discussed-in-talks-about-proposed-outlet-mall-near/article_a131be24-0cf5-5e6e-a60d-75656c1295da.html)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: carltonplace on May 12, 2015, 10:21:02 am
whoa...a compromise that might work out for all parties.

I won't stand for it!


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AquaMan on May 12, 2015, 10:29:55 am
Its an Inhofe sort of solution. The one clever thing he did his entire administration.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cynical on May 12, 2015, 10:38:34 am
Bales Park is actually used by people in the local community, though I don't know how many. It will be interesting to see the reaction. I think the article was likely a trial balloon.

The trafffic issue with 61st and Hwy 75 won't be made easier. The 61st and Union intersection is ready - it is massively overbuilt for the current traffic load, but the highway interchange would work about as well as the interchange at 81st and Hwy 75, meaning not at all. At least the 81st Street interchange has lights. the 61st Street interchange only has stop signs. Traffic trying to exit 75 northbound onto 81st Street to go to Tulsa Hills or Gander Mountain is backing up onto the highway itself. 

Land swap discussed with Simon taking Bales Park across the highway and the City taking the Turkey Mountain property.  http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/location-option-discussed-in-talks-about-proposed-outlet-mall-near/article_a131be24-0cf5-5e6e-a60d-75656c1295da.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/location-option-discussed-in-talks-about-proposed-outlet-mall-near/article_a131be24-0cf5-5e6e-a60d-75656c1295da.html)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on May 12, 2015, 02:46:15 pm
Bales Park is actually used by people in the local community, though I don't know how many. It will be interesting to see the reaction. I think the article was likely a trial balloon.

The trafffic issue with 61st and Hwy 75 won't be made easier. The 61st and Union intersection is ready - it is massively overbuilt for the current traffic load, but the highway interchange would work about as well as the interchange at 81st and Hwy 75, meaning not at all. At least the 81st Street interchange has lights. the 61st Street interchange only has stop signs. Traffic trying to exit 75 northbound onto 81st Street to go to Tulsa Hills or Gander Mountain is backing up onto the highway itself. 


Issues you cited are accurate, plus:

Moving it closer to the residential areas won’t play well with residents.  51st & Union as well as the bridge over I-44 is grossly inadequate to handle cut-around traffic.

Here’s another issue: If you were developing a “premium” outlet mall concept, how easy would it be to sell your retailers on the idea of their store being 1/8 of a mile or so from Section 8 housing?  I can’t imagine Simon will take this serious.

The McGeeHee Trust owned site on the SW corner of 61st & HWY75 is now “officially” on the market, as is their 25 or 26 acre parcel on the SE corner of said intersection.  Less traffic issues there and you might be able to have a frontage/access road direct to the site.  BUT- you still have the Westside Owners Residents Tennants Homeowners to reckon with.

People following this are curious why Clay Bird seems to favor Simon over Horizon.  What happens if the city ends up with two developments with attendant TIF districts and one fails?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cynical on May 12, 2015, 04:23:39 pm
Given that the proposed Horizon location is out there in the Hispanic section of town that doesn't vote for the likes of Dewey Bartlett, Clay Bird would be as receptive as the mayor would be, which is not very. At least it's in the city limits unlike the proposed Cherokee project.

One perceived advantage of the west side location is that there aren't that many voters out there. Too much undeveloped property to be much of a NIMBY concern. You have to have a back yard to protect.

I had also wondered about the apartments. Those and the rental housing across Union as well don't exactly exude "premium."

The comparison with Inhofe's land swap was amusing. Inhofe did his after the voters turned down his low-water dam proposal. There appears to be another discussion going on that issue, almost as if 30 years just vanished. The voters didn't exactly reward him for his initiative. I still remember him saying he was happy to return to the private sector where he could make money. That was before the demise of the family insurance business and his lawsuit against his brother and his subsequent return to the public teat.

And what a rousing success that dam has been. Did they say the dam would have a 30 year life span at the time?


Issues you cited are accurate, plus:

Moving it closer to the residential areas won’t play well with residents.  51st & Union as well as the bridge over I-44 is grossly inadequate to handle cut-around traffic.

Here’s another issue: If you were developing a “premium” outlet mall concept, how easy would it be to sell your retailers on the idea of their store being 1/8 of a mile or so from Section 8 housing?  I can’t imagine Simon will take this serious.

The McGeeHee Trust owned site on the SW corner of 61st & HWY75 is now “officially” on the market, as is their 25 or 26 acre parcel on the SE corner of said intersection.  Less traffic issues there and you might be able to have a frontage/access road direct to the site.  BUT- you still have the Westside Owners Residents Tennants Homeowners to reckon with.

People following this are curious why Clay Bird seems to favor Simon over Horizon.  What happens if the city ends up with two developments with attendant TIF districts and one fails?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 12, 2015, 09:13:16 pm

The comparison with Inhofe's land swap was amusing. Inhofe did his after the voters turned down his low-water dam proposal. There appears to be another discussion going on that issue, almost as if 30 years just vanished. The voters didn't exactly reward him for his initiative. I still remember him saying he was happy to return to the private sector where he could make money. That was before the demise of the family insurance business and his lawsuit against his brother and his subsequent return to the public teat.

And what a rousing success that dam has been. Did they say the dam would have a 30 year life span at the time?



At the time, is was nicknamed the "Jim Inhofe Memorial Sewage Lagoon".  Due to obvious issues with raw sewage being occasionally spewed by Sand Springs antiquated treatment plant of the day and raw sewage continuously being spewed by the namesake - continuing to this day!!




Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on May 14, 2015, 03:36:50 am
I have to say that I have been following this thread as well as others and have commented on many, and have lost my cool as well, but I still have a connection to Tulsa as I was born in the Pink Palace and saw so much from being on Mr. Zing and Tuffy in 1968 to when I moved away in 1998.

I think outlet malls can be a good thing, but the original proposed location is not one I would want. Turkey Mountain has been a wilderness park for as long as I can remember and that goes back to when it was on fire in the late 70's long before it became what it is now. The land swap for the park on the west side of HWY 75 still doesn't seem like a good location either, it just seems like a bad idea. I don't know about the area out towards Catoosa and the casino and the development that has grown out there. That may work, I just don't see it.

I went to the Tanger Outlet in Stroud once in 1992 and then it wasn't what I expected, as I don't think it was what others expected. I think the biggest problem was the fact that it was too far from the target markets and it never drew the highway travelers. I went to find something at the Anne Klein store but the 100 mile round trip made it not worth it.

Maybe if they built similar malls near the Bristow exit on the Turner/Rte 66 and near the old rest stop near Claremore along the Will Rogers/66 route. That could serve both sides of town without being a drive for next to nothing.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: PonderInc on May 20, 2015, 02:15:17 pm
For folks who are interested in this topic, I would suggest googling "Simon Property Group" and "tax abatement."  These guys are experts (as are most national retailers) for gaming the system and getting out of paying local taxes.  It's sad that municipalities slobber all over themselves competing to give away taxpayer dollars to attract businesses that pay minimum wage, employ part time workers, and exempt store managers from overtime pay.  Then, in 10 years, when the tifs expire and their malls are not generating the promised sales tax dollars, they will fight to get their property taxes reduced.  They save millions. Meanwhile, we continue to pay for infrastructure required to "support" their malls, etc.

If you want to build a mall, go for it.  Just don't ask for any special treatment.  No need for us to help do your dirty work.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on May 20, 2015, 10:09:36 pm
While Conan and my opinions generally don't jive on this subject, I do have to agree that I don't see a quality of life improvement for the surrounding areas. This is about increasing sales tax dollars in the Tulsa city limits. Rarely do any major retail centers improve anything for the neighbors except decrease loneliness.

Well, strike those city sales tax dollars. Mall jumped to Jenks.

http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/9/b2/9b2d5c43-fa5a-57e6-aec9-94d3b8c50432/555d58f8e04de.pdf.pdf


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: patric on May 20, 2015, 10:24:10 pm
Well, strike those city sales tax dollars. Mall jumped to Jenks.

http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/9/b2/9b2d5c43-fa5a-57e6-aec9-94d3b8c50432/555d58f8e04de.pdf.pdf

The land is already under contract for Simon Property group, according to a statement from the city of Jenks.
Dunkerley said the site is already part of a tax increment finance district, and Jenks residents in 2013 passed a road funding package that included streets in that area.
The roads will be constructed in conjunction with the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority and will be ready by the mall's planned opening in 2017.
Jenks City Manager Mike Tinker said in a statement released by the city Monday night that “this shows investment drives opportunity. … The foresight to invest and plan means it was just a matter of time until a project would materialize the size and scope of the Simon Premium Outlets."


So the whole Turkey Mountain show was a ruse?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on May 20, 2015, 10:52:17 pm

So the whole Turkey Mountain show was a ruse?

Jury is still out on that.  The outlet mall business is a lot of bait and switch.  I think Simon successfully may have taken Tulsa’s eye off the ball long enough until they could find a suitable site in a friendly suburb with access that meets the need to be in proximity of a major interstate or a spur of one.

Meanwhile, the ED office has so far failed in properly shepherding the project announced almost a year before Simon’s intentions on Turkey Mountain were accidentally leaked last August. 

Tulsa is better off with this not happening.  Serious economic analysis of the Turkey Mountain site, or anywhere on the 61st & 75 intersection is embarrassing. It’s not sustainable economically, but that’s a discussion for another thread.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: LandArchPoke on May 20, 2015, 11:25:34 pm
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/661/Zhr9RG.png) (https://imageshack.com/i/idZhr9RGp)

So the city wants us to pay $100+ million in sales tax over the next 15 years just so when someone comes to the outlet mall in Jenks they can park next to "WATER IN THE RIVER!" ???

I will say the site is much better than Turkey Mountain - it's flat and infrastructure is already set to be paid for. It's in an affluent area as well.

I think Simon is still cheating the City of Jenks by not making more of this development. No river interaction what so ever. There is a higher and better use for this site and this is not it. I will take it here over Turkey Mountain.

I will be voting NO on any river tax now for sure once I've seen this development plan. This was the largest tract with high potential for mixed-use development that would have immediately benefitted from a new damn. Unless the Jenks damn is taken off, I can't support this.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Weatherdemon on May 21, 2015, 06:16:38 am


So the city wants us to pay $100+ million in sales tax over the next 15 years just so when someone comes to the outlet mall in Jenks they can park next to "WATER IN THE RIVER!" ???

I will say the site is much better than Turkey Mountain - it's flat and infrastructure is already set to be paid for. It's in an affluent area as well.

I think Simon is still cheating the City of Jenks by not making more of this development. No river interaction what so ever. There is a higher and better use for this site and this is not it. I will take it here over Turkey Mountain.

I will be voting NO on any river tax now for sure once I've seen this development plan. This was the largest tract with high potential for mixed-use development that would have immediately benefitted from a new damn. Unless the Jenks damn is taken off, I can't support this.

I had always thought this would've been a great place for an amusement/water park.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on May 21, 2015, 06:26:40 am
So the city wants us to pay $100+ million in sales tax over the next 15 years just so when someone comes to the outlet mall in Jenks they can park next to "WATER IN THE RIVER!" ???

I will say the site is much better than Turkey Mountain - it's flat and infrastructure is already set to be paid for. It's in an affluent area as well.

I think Simon is still cheating the City of Jenks by not making more of this development. No river interaction what so ever. There is a higher and better use for this site and this is not it. I will take it here over Turkey Mountain.

I will be voting NO on any river tax now for sure once I've seen this development plan. This was the largest tract with high potential for mixed-use development that would have immediately benefitted from a new damn. Unless the Jenks damn is taken off, I can't support this.

I don't think this thing comes within 200 yards of the river. Is it bad that my house isn't more river facing, because I too am not adjacent to the river.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on May 21, 2015, 06:29:08 am
Jury is still out on that.  The outlet mall business is a lot of bait and switch.  I think Simon successfully may have taken Tulsa’s eye off the ball long enough until they could find a suitable site in a friendly suburb with access that meets the need to be in proximity of a major interstate or a spur of one.

I bet the TUWC really worked for Simon this whole time. They wanted Jenks to work harder so they made it looked like they were going in Tulsa and then paid TUWC to "scare them off" once the Jenks deal got better.

 ;D


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Gaspar on May 21, 2015, 06:32:47 am
Jury is still out on that.  The outlet mall business is a lot of bait and switch.  I think Simon successfully may have taken Tulsa’s eye off the ball long enough until they could find a suitable site in a friendly suburb with access that meets the need to be in proximity of a major interstate or a spur of one.

Meanwhile, the ED office has so far failed in properly shepherding the project announced almost a year before Simon’s intentions on Turkey Mountain were accidentally leaked last August. 

Tulsa is better off with this not happening.  Serious economic analysis of the Turkey Mountain site, or anywhere on the 61st & 75 intersection is embarrassing. It’s not sustainable economically, but that’s a discussion for another thread.

You do understand that this was never going to be at Turkey Mountain, right?  :D


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Gaspar on May 21, 2015, 06:42:49 am
I bet the TUWC really worked for Simon this whole time. They wanted Jenks to work harder so they made it looked like they were going in Tulsa and then paid TUWC to "scare them off" once the Jenks deal got better.

 ;D

This is an old tactic.  Simon is the master. Soon a local politician will emerge and take credit for brokering the change. The project will now be fast-tracked.

I've said it before.  The 'River District' was never a real project.  ;)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: PonderInc on May 21, 2015, 08:39:03 am
Tulsa dodged a bullet and Jenks stepped in front of it. Have fun with those tax dollars - they will never pay for the infrastructure investment you're making. Bummer only 25% of that development is productive land. That's what happens when you spend all your money building roads and parking lots and 4x more water/sewer/utilities because of that sprawling style. Enjoy those part-time minimum wage jobs, too! Go Jenks!


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: DowntownDan on May 21, 2015, 08:55:04 am
I'm sure this place will be as successful as the Riverwalk.  Also, wasn't this space supposed to be a grand "Villiage on Main" development?  And instead they're now excited over an outlet mall?  Drive down I-35 and see how well outlet malls do long term.  The ones in Gainesville and Waxahatchie Texas are depressing to see.  Good luck Jenks.  Enjoy the temporary tax bubble. 


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on May 21, 2015, 09:20:45 am
The needed infrastructure for this project in Jenks largely is done. The last part fixing the traffic issues at the Creek Turnpike exit at Peoria/Elm was already passed in a vote last year and starts construction this summer. OTA and Jenks are going to move the exit back from Elm and add one way access roads on each side of the turnpike. Jenks isn’t going to need any additional money for infrastructure except maybe to extend 106th from Peoria/Elm to the site.

This site is a portion of the land that was going to The River District. That project went south with the economy in 2008 after leveling the site and building flood detention. This area is in the middle of Jenks but hasn't developed becuase of flooding issues (that were addressed in 2008) and issues with access that are being fixed starting this summer. The Village on Main is a different project that was always going to be done in stages and is being slowly built along Main St. in Jenks. Today the Village site has the newly completed bank headquarters building and parking garage, a health clinic and an unused retail building.

I would like to see the outlet mall take more advantage of the river, but then as Grizzle pointed out, it’s not actually on the river. The River District developer is retaining all the land actually on the river and around the little  lake that was created with flood detention.

I think you are going to find that with this project Jenks will use TIF money on the dam and with Jenks and Creek Nation money the south dam is going to be built with or without Tulsa.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rdj on May 21, 2015, 09:32:27 am
I have very mixed thoughts on this project.  The City of Tulsa is heavily reliant on sales tax dollars to fund operations.  Regardless of our thoughts on the quality of the outlet mall the development would provide direct and indirect sales tax benefits.  Personally, I don't find placing a large outlet mall in closer proximity to the river than to Turkey Mountain any better of a solution.  I also don't agree that this was the end game from day one.  Simon hired the best local real estate attorneys to help them get the deal done on HWY 75.  No doubt in my mind the City of Tulsa ED group carried water in getting Simon interested in the region.  Sadly, they may have just brought them to the high school semi-formal only for the City of Jenks to swoop in and take them home.  I now see the Horizon project as dead.

The local demographics of this this location are superior to those along WHY 75, but the access for the traveler is significantly worse.  The attraction to this project is the outside sales tax dollars that are brought in from the interstate traveler that decides to stop on their way thru town.  Let's hope they advertise along the primary highways and folks will stop at establishments in Tulsa city limits as they meander their way to the outlet mall.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: SXSW on May 21, 2015, 09:36:08 am
So it looks like in this picture the left side is the RR track with an extension of 1st street and roundabout.  There is an underpass already there where Lewis connects this area to 101st.  Access will entirely be from 101st either on 1st or Lewis.  There is another street shown that I guess could connect to the aquarium underneath the bridge if the clearance was there.  The land actually adjacent to the river would still be vacant and ripe for future development that hopefully would interact with the water.  This would be just north of the proposed Jenks dam/pedestrian bridge.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/661/Zhr9RG.png)

This actually creates an interesting scenario for this area.  You have this as a retail attraction and potentially some other kind of retail development adjacent to the river to the east.  You have the Oklahoma Aquarium to the north which is a great facility that was recently expanded and could be expanded further into more of a regional attraction.  There's Riverwalk Crossing to the north of that which is seeing a new life with Creek ownership.  And then finally one of the state's biggest project (actually the biggest construction project currently underway in Oklahoma) is across the river with the casino, conference center and hotel.  The missing link is the dam that would create a permanent lake between these things with the potential for a water taxi/ferry running between them. 


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: LandArchPoke on May 21, 2015, 10:26:43 am
The needed infrastructure for this project in Jenks largely is done. The last part fixing the traffic issues at the Creek Turnpike exit at Peoria/Elm was already passed in a vote last year and starts construction this summer. OTA and Jenks are going to move the exit back from Elm and add one way access roads on each side of the turnpike. Jenks isn’t going to need any additional money for infrastructure except maybe to extend 106th from Peoria/Elm to the site.

This site is a portion of the land that was going to The River District. That project went south with the economy in 2008 after leveling the site and building flood detention. This area is in the middle of Jenks but hasn't developed becuase of flooding issues (that were addressed in 2008) and issues with access that are being fixed starting this summer. The Village on Main is a different project that was always going to be done in stages and is being slowly built along Main St. in Jenks. Today the Village site has the newly completed bank headquarters building and parking garage, a health clinic and an unused retail building.

I would like to see the outlet mall take more advantage of the river, but then as Grizzle pointed out, it’s not actually on the river. The River District developer is retaining all the land actually on the river and around the little  lake that was created with flood detention.

I think you are going to find that with this project Jenks will use TIF money on the dam and with Jenks and Creek Nation money the south dam is going to be built with or without Tulsa.


There is a very limited amount of land they are retaining along the river. It's basically enough land to build a few hotels (see the Holiday Inn north of the Creek by the Aquarium) or to sell them off as pad site for retailers (see the Waterfront Grill north of the Creek).

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/538/vHt6ib.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/eyvHt6ibj)

The rest of this is land that "belongs" to the River essentially. You'd have to wrangle the Fed in order to develop all the way to the river. This development does nothing to connect the actual development to the area where public amenities are proposed to be placed next to the dam. It will be large swaths of surface parking abutting the new parks.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on May 21, 2015, 01:36:39 pm
I have very mixed thoughts on this project.  The City of Tulsa is heavily reliant on sales tax dollars to fund operations.  Regardless of our thoughts on the quality of the outlet mall the development would provide direct and indirect sales tax benefits.  Personally, I don't find placing a large outlet mall in closer proximity to the river than to Turkey Mountain any better of a solution.  I also don't agree that this was the end game from day one.  Simon hired the best local real estate attorneys to help them get the deal done on HWY 75.  No doubt in my mind the City of Tulsa ED group carried water in getting Simon interested in the region.  Sadly, they may have just brought them to the high school semi-formal only for the City of Jenks to swoop in and take them home.  I now see the Horizon project as dead.

The local demographics of this this location are superior to those along WHY 75, but the access for the traveler is significantly worse.  The attraction to this project is the outside sales tax dollars that are brought in from the interstate traveler that decides to stop on their way thru town.  Let's hope they advertise along the primary highways and folks will stop at establishments in Tulsa city limits as they meander their way to the outlet mall.

Why do you see the Horizon project as dead?  I keep hearing this from various people in development circles yet the Horizon developers are supposed to be submitting the details of their TIF request in the next week or two.  According to conversations I’ve had with the seller of the Horizon land, that project will be moving forward.

Simon pulled a head fake on Horizon in Omaha, ran Horizon off, then Simon never built in Omaha.  Perhaps Horizon is prepared for this?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on May 21, 2015, 01:38:30 pm
I bet the TUWC really worked for Simon this whole time. They wanted Jenks to work harder so they made it looked like they were going in Tulsa and then paid TUWC to "scare them off" once the Jenks deal got better.

 ;D

Yeah, that’s the $3.2 million bulge in my back pocket.  ;D

I wish I had $10 for every time I heard: “You can’t stop this, it’s a done deal”.  TUWC would have enough to buy the property already.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on May 21, 2015, 01:44:37 pm
Why do you see the Horizon project as dead?  I keep hearing this from various people in development circles yet the Horizon developers are supposed to be submitting the details of their TIF request in the next week or two.  According to conversations I’ve had with the seller of the Horizon land, that project will be moving forward.

Simon pulled a head fake on Horizon in Omaha, ran Horizon off, then Simon never built in Omaha.  Perhaps Horizon is prepared for this?

Because Horizon is a tiny company with a market cap of not even $11 million. - Horizon http://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?ticker=HGPI

While Simon is the nations largest commercial real estate company with nearly a quarter billion square feet of space and a market cap of $57 billion. - Simon http://finance.yahoo.com/q;_ylt=AvXxGt3k5uevQK9UhrRes0wnv7gF?uhb=uhb2&fr=uh3_finance_vert_gs&type=2button&s=SPG



 


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: DTowner on May 21, 2015, 01:48:14 pm
While a win for Turkey Mountain (to the extent that area was ever the real target), this is a loss for Tulsa.  Jenks will now siphon off a good chunk of sales tax revenue from Tulsa.  I’m not the target market for an outlet mall, but if one is coming then better for it to be located in Tulsa proper.  Unfortunately, nothing I’ve heard or read gives me the impression the group behind the east Tulsa outlet mall has the horsepower or muscle to take on Simon and beat them to the finish line.  Too bad.  

As for the development itself in Jenks, it will be on a large flat piece of land next to a highway in suburbia - I would only be surprised if it was something other than a suburban sprawl type of development that ignores its surroundings.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on May 21, 2015, 01:56:38 pm
Quote
I now see the Horizon project as dead.

Because Horizon is a tiny company with a market cap of not even $11 million. - Horizon http://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?ticker=HGPI

While Simon is the nations largest commercial real estate company with nearly a quarter billion square feet of space and a market cap of $57 billion. - Simon http://finance.yahoo.com/q;_ylt=AvXxGt3k5uevQK9UhrRes0wnv7gF?uhb=uhb2&fr=uh3_finance_vert_gs&type=2button&s=SPG
 

Why does the outlet moving to Jenks make the Horizon deal dead? You think Horizon will go as far as they did and give up? What about the hard rock casino outlet? Do you think they're quitting too because Simon moved their mall to Jenks?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: SXSW on May 21, 2015, 02:29:25 pm
If they tweaked their site plan where the bulk of the shops were on the east side of the site against Lewis with the bulk of the parking on the west side it would work better for future synergy between whatever is built on that narrow parcel between Lewis and the river (what you have colored in orange).  Assuming the dam is built with the park as shown that would be an ideal location for a couple restaurants similar to Waterfront Grill or Los Cabos on the east side of Lewis overlooking the park/river.  Then people shopping at the outlets could just cross a street to the restaurants and riverfront park instead of a huge parking lot.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on May 21, 2015, 02:56:46 pm
Why does the outlet moving to Jenks make the Horizon deal dead? You think Horizon will go as far as they did and give up? What about the hard rock casino outlet? Do you think they're quitting too because Simon moved their mall to Jenks?


Actually, it’s rumored that the Cherokees & Woodmont Group have had trouble signing any leases.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on May 21, 2015, 02:59:22 pm
Because Horizon is a tiny company with a market cap of not even $11 million. - Horizon http://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?ticker=HGPI

While Simon is the nations largest commercial real estate company with nearly a quarter billion square feet of space and a market cap of $57 billion. - Simon http://finance.yahoo.com/q;_ylt=AvXxGt3k5uevQK9UhrRes0wnv7gF?uhb=uhb2&fr=uh3_finance_vert_gs&type=2button&s=SPG


Horizon developed the outlet mall in OKC and the master developer for the east side project is Sooner Investment who developed Tulsa Hills.

I’d say between the two, they have demonstrated the capability. 

Getting the leases is another story, that’s where Simon does have an advantage. 


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on May 21, 2015, 04:09:00 pm
Horizon developed the outlet mall in OKC and the master developer for the east side project is Sooner Investment who developed Tulsa Hills.

I’d say between the two, they have demonstrated the capability.  

Getting the leases is another story, that’s where Simon does have an advantage.  

I'm not saying that Horizon isn't a capable developer. But when only one project is going to succeed retailers are going to go with the big boy they have a long record of personal success with. Simon is less risky and and choosing the Simon project maintains the retailer's relationship with Simon.

This is why it was so important to push Simon off Turkey Mountain, the other projects were dead the minute Simon announced theirs.  I still wish Tulsa had done something creative on the river at 21st, but they simply may not have had time. Simon has to move now, a delay could let in one of the other developers.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rdj on May 22, 2015, 07:22:50 am
Simon has proven o'er and o'er they will play hardball with retailers when it comes to making sure their developments are full.

Want to renew your spot at Woodland Hills?  Better sign on for the Jenks, 'Merica outlet mall or face a serious rate hike.

Horizon can't do that.  Particularly in light of the fact stores have closed at the OKC outlet mall.  Wonder why that site was chosen for store closures?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: DolfanBob on May 22, 2015, 07:25:38 am
All this time I've been hearing Brick and Mortar stores are dying.  ???
I guess the Millennials still have to have someplace to go to be seen in all their online purchases.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Ibanez on May 22, 2015, 08:38:59 am
Simon has proven o'er and o'er they will play hardball with retailers when it comes to making sure their developments are full.

Want to renew your spot at Woodland Hills?  Better sign on for the Jenks, 'Merica outlet mall or face a serious rate hike.

Horizon can't do that.  Particularly in light of the fact stores have closed at the OKC outlet mall.  Wonder why that site was chosen for store closures?

My wife has dragged me to that mall twice. I can't say for a fact why they closed, but the amount of sketchy individuals hanging around in the parking lot as well as wandering "the mall" made me never want to go back. I would imagine other people have had the same reaction and decided never to step foot there as well. When the wife wants to do some outlet shopping now we go to Branson.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Tulsasaurus Rex on May 22, 2015, 09:30:02 am
Tulsa Council and Mayor say Jenks jumped the gun and Tulsa will fight for the outlets to stay

http://www.fox23.com/news/news/local/proposed-outlet-mall-near-turkey-mountain-moves-je/nmLLY/


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: SXSW on May 22, 2015, 10:02:13 am
This councilor gets it
Quote
Tulsa City Councilor Connie Dodson said Simon should not play games with Tulsa officials, and with plans now in flux, the City of Tulsa should get behind, and even expedite, the east Tulsa outlet mall proposed by Horizon Properties.“We need to keep that sales tax revenue in Tulsa, and this is the safest way to do it and also preserve Turkey Mountain,” Dodson said.

Dodson said Horizon officials are very close to having a plan in place for city approval. The developer is just working on the Tax Increment Financing plan, and then they will be complete."It’s already zoned. It’s already ready," Dodson said. "We’re just working on the final numbers for the TIF. So if we can get those numbers locked in, we are moving in that direction right now. Horizon is working to get everything locked in, and to get everything moved into the approval process."


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Stanley1 on May 22, 2015, 01:17:03 pm
Tulsa dodged a bullet and Jenks stepped in front of it. Have fun with those tax dollars - they will never pay for the infrastructure investment you're making. Bummer only 25% of that development is productive land. That's what happens when you spend all your money building roads and parking lots and 4x more water/sewer/utilities because of that sprawling style. Enjoy those part-time minimum wage jobs, too! Go Jenks!

What an idiotic statement.  I really can't say anything other than that.  Just silly.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Stanley1 on May 22, 2015, 01:21:48 pm
Actually, it’s rumored that the Cherokees & Woodmont Group have had trouble signing any leases.

I heard their chief speak about 2 weeks ago, and he suggested no such thing.  Said they are already "moving" on the project, and starting some of the projects that need to be done first.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on May 22, 2015, 07:41:17 pm
Quote
"If we don't get an outlet mall, I want to know why," said Tulsa City Councilor Jeannie Cue. "I want to know what we did wrong." - See more at: http://www.fox23.com/news/news/local/proposed-outlet-mall-near-turkey-mountain-moves-je/nmLLY/#sthash.aWGItgkR.dpuf

I don't know, signed petitions to keep them away, badmouthed the company and said outlet malls are crap?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on May 29, 2015, 07:32:19 am
There's earth moving equipment parked onsite at the Jenks location this morning. Could they really move that fast?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AngieB on May 29, 2015, 08:00:51 am
There's earth moving equipment parked onsite at the Jenks location this morning. Could they really move that fast?


May not be related to Simon. I've seen that area used for staging (if that's the correct term) many times.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on May 30, 2015, 10:37:07 am
Word around the campfire is that Simon likely would not release their contract on the TMUWA property prior to it’s expiration in a few months.  I suspect this is to keep everyone guessing and keep the staff in the Economic Development office focused on retaining Simon while Horizon’s project goes ignored.  Unfortunately, the land swap the city has countered Simon with is not much better than the original site, at least talking to area residents.

If Horizon and Sooner Investments can get their project on the ground, it will have a better net return for the city.  It is a larger overall project with multiple revenue sources aside from the outlet shopping.  It also has a better potential for increasing the ad valorem tax base in that area of east Tulsa.

JMO, I think this illustrates seriously skewed priorities down at City Hall.  They have done little, if anything to show this development much warmth nor to dispel the mistaken notions that this is even remotely similar to the failed Eastland Mall.





Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: SouthTulsaCountyDude on June 03, 2015, 09:42:22 am
May not be related to Simon. I've seen that area used for staging (if that's the correct term) many times.

It was used for staging for the turnpike work.... but what project would be using it for staging now????     


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on June 03, 2015, 10:24:36 am
So, the mystery continues:

Simon has requested a continuance of their hearing to the August 19 TMAPC meeting.

Again, I think it is to keep trying to take the city’s attention away from Horizon’s project.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on June 03, 2015, 10:53:05 am
It was used for staging for the turnpike work.... but what project would be using it for staging now????     

It looks like it's the project to move the turnpike exit and add service roads. Utilities are being moved from the Aquarium Drive side now.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on June 03, 2015, 02:33:00 pm
It looks like it's the project to move the turnpike exit and add service roads. Utilities are being moved from the Aquarium Drive side now.

I drove past, Elliot is pulling underground cable.  It could be any number of things, but the only thing OTA shows is a bid opening for June 9 for Elm St. improvements.  Seems like any utility work would be jumping the gun.

Simon could have rented the earth movers and bulldozers just to give Clay Bird night sweats.  :o

Do we really want the mayor’s office and his associates to jump through hoops to attract a developer which conducts itself in such a mysterious and deceiving manner?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on June 03, 2015, 02:49:24 pm
I drove past, Elliot is pulling underground cable.  It could be any number of things, but the only thing OTA shows is a bid opening for June 9 for Elm St. improvements.  Seems like any utility work would be jumping the gun.

Simon could have rented the earth movers and bulldozers just to give Clay Bird night sweats.  :o

Do we really want the mayor’s office and his associates to jump through hoops to attract a developer which conducts itself in such a mysterious and deceiving manner?

The Elm St improvement would be the moving of the exit. Would a bidder be so confident of the outcome to park earth movers? They were still there this morning.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Vision 2025 on June 03, 2015, 02:50:37 pm
The Elm St improvement would be the moving of the exit. Would a bidder be so confident of the outcome to park earth movers? They were still there this morning.
If it's a couple of off road dump trucks and a track hoe that's Anchor Sand.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on June 03, 2015, 03:03:34 pm
If it's a couple of off road dump trucks and a track hoe that's Anchor Sand.

Looks like earth movers and bulldozers, Kirby.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on June 03, 2015, 03:04:51 pm
The Elm St improvement would be the moving of the exit. Would a bidder be so confident of the outcome to park earth movers? They were still there this morning.

Where are they moving the exit to and what else is involved?  The engineer’s estimate, according to OTA is over $10 mil.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on June 03, 2015, 09:18:21 pm
Where are they moving the exit to and what else is involved?  The engineer’s estimate, according to OTA is over $10 mil.

They are moving the exit/entrance back about quarter mile with one way service roads on each side with a Texas turn around at Elm. Jenks city bond money and OTA are paying for it.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: LandArchPoke on June 03, 2015, 09:52:16 pm

Again, I think it is to keep trying to take the city’s attention away from Horizon’s project.

This doesn't make much sense to me, or even if they are trying to "smoke" out Horizon like either you or someone else mentioned they did in Omaha.

I think people are forgetting there is still Woodmont's projects at Hard Rock. They've executed the ground lease for this, which means they're further along than both Simon and Horizon.

Even if Simon is out to kill Horizon's proposal it's and are out to pack their bags up after then the Woodmont project will get built. Seems like a giant waste of money and time for Simon staff. Simon is interested in the Tulsa area or they wouldn't be even messing around with it because there's no way to successfully block a project from getting built and they don't have any properties close (outlets) that this would compete against (like if they had built the OKC project or if they had one in NWA).


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on June 04, 2015, 08:49:36 am
This doesn't make much sense to me, or even if they are trying to "smoke" out Horizon like either you or someone else mentioned they did in Omaha.

I think people are forgetting there is still Woodmont's projects at Hard Rock. They've executed the ground lease for this, which means they're further along than both Simon and Horizon.

Even if Simon is out to kill Horizon's proposal it's and are out to pack their bags up after then the Woodmont project will get built. Seems like a giant waste of money and time for Simon staff. Simon is interested in the Tulsa area or they wouldn't be even messing around with it because there's no way to successfully block a project from getting built and they don't have any properties close (outlets) that this would compete against (like if they had built the OKC project or if they had one in NWA).

I’ve heard from several people that whomever Woodmont has been using for their leasing consultant is not registering well with retailers.  When I quizzed one of the Simon execs back in February why they wouldn’t just partner with Woodmont and bring their tenants, the reply was that Woodmont has not been pulling their weight on the Chesterfield outlet project in the STL area.  That’s not to say at some point a joint venture couldn’t happen on that property, but Simon has to be concerned about the possibility of diverting revenue from 71st & Memorial.

There’s an important point to remember here and some history we need to revisit:

When Tulsa Hills was announced, Simon, as well as some city officials expressed concern for revenue drain off Woodland Hills.  This was a ludicrous assertion as Tulsa Hills is primarily big box retail with multiple restaurant pad sites, not really the sort of shops you find in WHM. 

Who honestly believes Simon wants to scavenge their own revenue pool?  An outlet mall does have the same sort of shops as WHM.  What are the chances a discount Kate Spade outlet would hurt sales at their full price mall location?  Would Simon intentionally scavenge revenue off a property that by most accounts is doing quite well?  Would they want a competitor to scavenge off sales from that property?

After Horizon built the outlet mall in OKC, David Simon allegedly pledged to never allow a competitor to put in an outlet mall in a city where they had a traditional mall.

To this point, Simon is out under $1 million to protect WHM from competition.  I have no clue what sort of revenue WHM brings in every year, but $1 mil seems like a reasonable amount of money to fend off a drain on future revenues.  Development in suburbia has already carved into the 71st & Memorial area’s earning power quite a bit.  An outlet mall is a direct threat to the sort of brands WHM currently houses.

JMO- Simon building at 61st & Hwy 75 or Jenks seems to be a bigger threat to drain their revenue stream at WHM than if they just jumped in bed with Woodmont.  An interesting fact about the development of WHM back in the 1970’s is the same property Horizon’s project is proposed for was used as a “blind” to basically keep Eastland Mall’s development stalled while Dayton-Hudson (I think that was the original WHM developer) ended up building “way out in the sticks” at 71st & Memorial.

I’ve learned a lot of strange stuff about the outlet mall business the last 8-9 months so nothing would surprise me at this point.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: LandArchPoke on June 04, 2015, 10:38:25 am
I’ve heard from several people that whomever Woodmont has been using for their leasing consultant is not registering well with retailers.  When I quizzed one of the Simon execs back in February why they wouldn’t just partner with Woodmont and bring their tenants, the reply was that Woodmont has not been pulling their weight on the Chesterfield outlet project in the STL area.  That’s not to say at some point a joint venture couldn’t happen on that property, but Simon has to be concerned about the possibility of diverting revenue from 71st & Memorial.

There’s an important point to remember here and some history we need to revisit:

When Tulsa Hills was announced, Simon, as well as some city officials expressed concern for revenue drain off Woodland Hills.  This was a ludicrous assertion as Tulsa Hills is primarily big box retail with multiple restaurant pad sites, not really the sort of shops you find in WHM. 

Who honestly believes Simon wants to scavenge their own revenue pool?  An outlet mall does have the same sort of shops as WHM.  What are the chances a discount Kate Spade outlet would hurt sales at their full price mall location?  Would Simon intentionally scavenge revenue off a property that by most accounts is doing quite well?  Would they want a competitor to scavenge off sales from that property?

After Horizon built the outlet mall in OKC, David Simon allegedly pledged to never allow a competitor to put in an outlet mall in a city where they had a traditional mall.

To this point, Simon is out under $1 million to protect WHM from competition.  I have no clue what sort of revenue WHM brings in every year, but $1 mil seems like a reasonable amount of money to fend off a drain on future revenues.  Development in suburbia has already carved into the 71st & Memorial area’s earning power quite a bit.  An outlet mall is a direct threat to the sort of brands WHM currently houses.

JMO- Simon building at 61st & Hwy 75 or Jenks seems to be a bigger threat to drain their revenue stream at WHM than if they just jumped in bed with Woodmont.  An interesting fact about the development of WHM back in the 1970’s is the same property Horizon’s project is proposed for was used as a “blind” to basically keep Eastland Mall’s development stalled while Dayton-Hudson (I think that was the original WHM developer) ended up building “way out in the sticks” at 71st & Memorial.

I’ve learned a lot of strange stuff about the outlet mall business the last 8-9 months so nothing would surprise me at this point.


Woodland Hills - the portion that Simon owns - brings in somewhere around $30 million in leasing revenue a year. I've seen sublet rates in the mall for over $40 per sq. ft. so that's just an estimate based off a slightly higher prime rate. I wouldn't be surprised if it's much higher than $30 million a year.

There has been a lot of debate on whether outlets actually pull any sales from regular malls. From everything I've read it's generally accepted that the impact is minimal. Someone who is going to buy a $500 Kate Spade bag isn't going to be interested in the knock off/lower quality $100 Kate Spade bag at the outlet store. However, someone who would never shop at Kate Spade because they can't afford it or think it's to expensive that buys bags at Khol's or Belk would buy the $100 outlet Kate Spade bag.

I had actually forget how mad Simon got about Tulsa Hills. I could see them trying to manipulate this to preserve market share and try to protect Woodland Hills as well. The Cherokee's however could build the outlet center with cash if they really wanted to so maybe Simon is just under estimating them? If Woodmont didn't have that partnership with them, Simon could kill both of the other projects rather easily by just "planning" a development for years and blocking any tenants from signing on to any of the other projects.

I will agree that this all does seem very fishy in that Simon has done almost no outreach to the broader community for the Turkey Mountain site, and then pulled the stunt with the Jenks site. It will be interesting to watch what eventually happens.






Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on June 04, 2015, 01:13:50 pm
I’ve looked at the Cherokee project from the beginning as a a clean sheet retail project which could go any number of directions.  If they fail to get the necessary outlet anchors to sign which will help get all the other 75 or so tenants all is not lost.  They can stage some sort of retail which would work well as a shopping destination which would compliment their entertainment, gambling, golf, and hospitality properties on the site.

I’m no expert on retailing but with the access and nearby amenities, the Cherokees have great retail potential sitting there, regardless what form it takes.

A retail development like this makes better economic sense for a suburb to take advantage of, especially Catoosa.  The infrastructure is already there (or mostly), and you could anticipate upwards of 80-90% of the receipts to come from zip codes outside Catoosa.

The payback to COT for the infrastructure investment has never looked great at 61st & Hwy 75.  Tulsa would get nowhere near the net benefit Catoosa would from an outlet mall.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: patric on June 05, 2015, 10:06:50 pm
More bait and switch?
http://www.fox23.com/news/news/local/bartlett-fights-keep-outlet-mall-tulsa/nmXPD/


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 06, 2015, 07:38:53 am
I am friends with numerous managers at many high end stores at Woodland Hill Mall. They all fear significant canablalism as most Tulsa consumers want a fancy patch on their purse/clothes but are happy to get it as cheap as possible. They are sales driven businesses in Tulsa.

I've heard numbers as high as 50% bring planned for. Which sounds about right to me, 50% of the people don't give a damn and the (alleged) quality of a $500 purse, but sure want everyonebto think they have a $500 purse. So they are more than happy to go to an outlet mall and get a sanctioned knockoff. Definitely true for Nike, at least 50% of people want the "coolness" associated with a swoosh on their black socks and wouldn't bother arguing its a quality thing.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: TheArtist on June 06, 2015, 08:39:17 am
If Tulsa were growing a little better it wouldn't be so bad, but yes the cannibalism factor is larger with such slow growth.  I was looking at some census numbers a few weeks ago and if I remember correctly Tulsa only added about 1,000 people for all of 2014.  Out of about 400,000 people what is that growth rate percentage wise?  

Also, I wonder where the tax dollars for schools will go with this new development.  Tulsa really needs more retail sales for it's school district but as I understand it, I think all of that stuff off Highway 75 so far is going to Jenks schools but Tulsa Fire and Police.  Union has Woodland etc. for its schools, Tulsa has what, Utica Square and Promenade as its two big anchors?  


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Dspike on June 06, 2015, 09:42:09 am
As a baseline, the US population grew 0.77% in 2013 to 2014. For that same year,

Tulsa Metropolitan area grew 0.7% to 969,224 (adding 6,800).
OKC Metropolitan area grew 1.2% to 1,336,767.

Tulsa County grew 1.1% to 629,598 people.
Oklahoma County grew 1.4% to 766,215 (adding 10,547).

City of Tulsa grew .3% to 399,682 (adding 1,278).
Broken Arrow grew 1.2% to 104,726  (adding 1,256).
Jenks grew 6.8% to 19,951 (adding 1,264).
Owasso grew 4.0% to 33,773 (adding 1,300).

The year before, Tulsa grew match faster (1.0% or 3,722).




http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/tulsa-metro-population-growth-slows-in-census-bureau-says/article_dfb60f65-f789-5e9e-ae02-7f5200c18751.html

http://www.tulsaworld.com/communities/bartlesville/jenks-is-fastest-growing-city-in-oklahoma/article_9258f949-1e96-58fd-8bf6-781c0a1ad0f6.html

http://www.tulsaworld.com/newshomepage2/census-rarity-tulsa-population-change-outpaces-broken-arrow/article_b02fc2b2-1c24-52b2-b25f-c78907a73a36.html


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on June 06, 2015, 08:11:03 pm
The Bales Park site, I believe is TPS.  Originally planned site was Jenks, or so I’m told. 

I’ve worked the numbers, apparently with a more critical eye than the mayor’s staff has, and I don’t see how this adds anything net to the sales tax base at the H75/61st corridor- not now, not in the next 20 years.

Simon is the largest retail developer/manager in the world.  Why on earth would they scavenge their own good-performing property?  They have to already understand the point CF made.  I think they will dick with the city long enough that Horizon decides to move their resources elsewhere and Simon will do nothing.

I’ve spoken with two previous mayors who see this folly, why doesn’t DB see what a joke this is?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on June 06, 2015, 08:11:51 pm
As a baseline, the US population grew 0.77% in 2013 to 2014. For that same year,

Tulsa Metropolitan area grew 0.7% to 969,224 (adding 6,800).
OKC Metropolitan area grew 1.2% to 1,336,767.

Tulsa County grew 1.1% to 629,598 people.
Oklahoma County grew 1.4% to 766,215 (adding 10,547).

City of Tulsa grew .3% to 399,682 (adding 1,278).
Broken Arrow grew 1.2% to 104,726  (adding 1,256).
Jenks grew 6.8% to 19,951 (adding 1,264).
Owasso grew 4.0% to 33,773 (adding 1,300).

The year before, Tulsa grew match faster (1.0% or 3,722).




http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/tulsa-metro-population-growth-slows-in-census-bureau-says/article_dfb60f65-f789-5e9e-ae02-7f5200c18751.html

http://www.tulsaworld.com/communities/bartlesville/jenks-is-fastest-growing-city-in-oklahoma/article_9258f949-1e96-58fd-8bf6-781c0a1ad0f6.html

http://www.tulsaworld.com/newshomepage2/census-rarity-tulsa-population-change-outpaces-broken-arrow/article_b02fc2b2-1c24-52b2-b25f-c78907a73a36.html

Wow, that’s even more dismal growth than I gave Tulsa credit for when I spoke at Sustainable Tulsa on Thursday.

We’ve staked our fortunes on retail sales tax expansion for 25 years.  The reason we cannot afford to maintain or develop infrastructure and cannot comfortably provide public safety services is because Tulsa does not grow appreciably and we don’t have the kind of leadership vision to take stock of our best assets and promote them for tourism. 

Staking our future on “retail tourism” is lame.  I really, really hope there is better vision for our city within the group I met you through, Dspike.  ;)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Vashta Nerada on June 07, 2015, 07:32:52 pm

Staking our future on “retail tourism” is lame.  I really, really hope there is better vision for our city within the group I met you through, Dspike.  ;)


But we put so much into the War On Tourism as is...
http://www.fox23.com/news/news/local/operation-whiskey-business-aimed-keep-rocklahoma-s/nmPr8/



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on June 08, 2015, 07:45:05 am
Nice non-sequitur. 


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: DTowner on June 08, 2015, 08:30:16 am
Simon is the largest retail developer/manager in the world.  Why on earth would they scavenge their own good-performing property?  They have to already understand the point CF made.  I think they will dick with the city long enough that Horizon decides to move their resources elsewhere and Simon will do nothing.

I’ve spoken with two previous mayors who see this folly, why doesn’t DB see what a joke this is?

I’m not sure it’s fair to assume the mayor doesn’t understand the risk that the city might be getting played by Simon.  If he sits back and does nothing to win Simon over, and if your theory of Simon’s intention is correct, Simon will point to the mayor/city’s lack of interest as a primary reason the project didn’t happen.  Not good for the mayor.  Also, if there is a chance it will happen, you don’t want to be the mayor who sat back and without a fight watched the project and all the sales tax revenues go to Jenks.  If the outlet mall doesn’t happen or happens in Jenks, the mayor wants to be in the position to say he and the city did everything they could.  That is smart politics.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: SouthTulsaCountyDude on June 08, 2015, 09:08:29 am
More bait and switch?
http://www.fox23.com/news/news/local/bartlett-fights-keep-outlet-mall-tulsa/nmXPD/

Why would Simon want their Outlet Mall right next to parkview terrace?    (Its Sec 8 right???)

Why would Simon want to do this land swap?    I see no incentive.   Correct me if I am wrong.   :)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on June 08, 2015, 10:37:05 am
Why would Simon want their Outlet Mall right next to parkview terrace?    (Its Sec 8 right???)

Why would Simon want to do this land swap?    I see no incentive.   Correct me if I am wrong.   :)

Details of the land swap, as I understand it, involves demo of Parkview Terrace and relocation of its residents and leaving the wooded part of Bales Park undisturbed.  So basically the Sharon King Davis property fronting 61st, PT, and the baseball park.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AngieB on June 08, 2015, 03:20:56 pm
>>>demo of Parkview Terrace and relocation of its residents<<<

That's huge! I could get behind that 100%.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Townsend on June 08, 2015, 03:55:12 pm
That's huge! I could get behind that 100%.

First 5 google images for Parkview Terrace are pics with cops in them.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on June 08, 2015, 09:32:43 pm
That's huge! I could get behind that 100%.

I hope the home owners on the west side of Union are good with that, too.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on June 08, 2015, 09:50:47 pm
I hope the home owners on the west side of Union are good with that, too.

I went to a small-area planning meeting for that area. Many of them very vocally said they don't want anything larger than a shed built west of 75.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: dsjeffries on June 09, 2015, 07:19:29 am
That's huge! I could get behind that 100%.

I'm glad I don't live in a snout house Parkview Terrace or I'd be feeling pretty beat up about now. Man. Criticizing the type of home in which people live.  :-/


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: SouthTulsaCountyDude on June 09, 2015, 09:29:17 am
I went to a small-area planning meeting for that area. Many of them very vocally said they don't want anything larger than a shed built west of 75.

SO the city will have a hard time even with the whole land swap idea????


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AngieB on June 09, 2015, 10:19:44 am
I'm glad I don't live in a snout house Parkview Terrace or I'd be feeling pretty beat up about now. Man. Criticizing the type of home in which people live.  :-/

There's a difference, Daniel. It is a blighted area with high crime. But thanks for playing.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Townsend on June 09, 2015, 11:35:51 am
Details of the land swap, as I understand it, involves demo of Parkview Terrace and relocation of its residents and leaving the wooded part of Bales Park undisturbed.  So basically the Sharon King Davis property fronting 61st, PT, and the baseball park.

Does the land swap plan mention where the residents would be relocated?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: dsjeffries on June 09, 2015, 01:57:12 pm
There's a difference, Daniel. It is a blighted area with high crime. But thanks for playing.

So the mass relocation of poor people is okay, but criticizing snout houses isn't. Okay.

According to the Tulsa Police Department's crime map, we need to relocate a lot of people from high crime areas all over the city (Tulsa Hills has an especially high crime rate. We should probably bulldoze it). I guess the failed housing policies of the past 50 years and results from earlier forced removals and concentrations of poverty don't really apply to Tulsa.

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/259/18645231312_d6b4cd4b83_z.jpg)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AngieB on June 09, 2015, 02:11:53 pm
So the mass relocation of poor people is okay, but criticizing snout houses isn't. Okay.

According to the Tulsa Police Department's crime map, we need to relocate a lot of people from high crime areas all over the city (Tulsa Hills has an especially high crime rate. We should probably bulldoze it). I guess the failed housing policies of the past 50 years and results from earlier forced removals and concentrations of poverty don't really apply to Tulsa.

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/259/18645231312_d6b4cd4b83_z.jpg)

They are thousands of well kept "snout houses" in very nice areas and then there are blighted old run down apartment buildings. You're trying to start a fight with me and I am not going to entertain it any further.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on June 09, 2015, 02:32:30 pm
SO the city will have a hard time even with the whole land swap idea????

NIMBYs are everywhere.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: LandArchPoke on June 09, 2015, 04:05:23 pm
They are thousands of well kept "snout houses" in very nice areas and then there are blighted old run down apartment buildings. You're trying to start a fight with me and I am not going to entertain it any further.

Angie - I'm not trying to pick at you about this, because most people tend to think this way and it would be unfair to think you a mean person, etc. for wanting to move Section 8 housing away from where you live.

I would look at it this way, is these are still families - and for a lot of them that's probably the only place they've ever lived. I don't think you'd want someone coming in and saying you have to move so we can build a mall and just deal with it, which is typically what happens to poor people. Most of these people will have a hard time finding a way to move expenses wise, and what happens if their job is at Tulsa Hills and now they are told they have to move to far East Tulsa or North Tulsa. Their bus commute goes from 15 minutes to 2 hours. Or worse, they loose their job. Not all section 8 residents are jobless. I'd just encourage you to think about the hardships we would be proposing on these residents of Tulsa just so we don't have to look at poor people or their homes and so we can get a new outlet mall.

The crime rate at the outlet mall will be considerably higher than at that complex currently anyways as well.

If the city is proposing to do this, they need to not kick out these residents they need to incorporate a new multifamily development into the mix that is a mixed-income development. Have new market rate units and "affordable/section 8" units as a mix of the development. This was very successful in Kendall Whitter and is quickly become the national standard of integrating affordable housing that instead of shunning these people into mass complexes you integrate them into society and give them a place with opportunity and a place they can be proud of.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on June 10, 2015, 07:39:53 am
SO the city will have a hard time even with the whole land swap idea????

There’s a history that goes back a couple of years when residents living west of Union got an apartment development shot down on land east of Union and south of 71st St.

As far as residents around the area I’ve spoken with: their primary concern had to do with more traffic, activity, light pollution, etc.  Some were also concerned about destruction of land contiguous to Turkey Mountain, but that didn’t seem to be the primary concern.

People can call it NIMBYism, but I see it from a slightly different perspective.  Many people chose to live on the west side, particularly south of I-44 because of it’s more rural feel and lower density of commercial clutter.  Residents who have been there for decades are the ones who seem more reticent about this development because they moved there to escape shopping and apartment type density.

Now that commercial development and apartments have come to SW Tulsa, it’s taking away that rural feel.  Drive around the area from 33rd W. Ave to 75 and from 51st to 81st or so.  There’s still quite a bit of wooded areas and where there is development- such as Riverfield Country Day School, even it is hidden somewhat in the trees.

Grizzle may recall this from the SWT small area plan, the area from 71st to 61st along Union was to be considered an “equestrian corridor” with some way to link up to trails at Turkey Mountain.  This was something I discovered when I first started researching area zoning after Simon announced their intention to develop there.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on June 10, 2015, 08:16:11 am
Current plan I think has Union as. Main Street corridor, but they just redid the rode as two lanes. Not built for traffic.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Red Arrow on June 10, 2015, 04:27:15 pm
People can call it NIMBYism, but I see it from a slightly different perspective.  Many people chose to live on the west side, particularly south of I-44 because of it’s more rural feel and lower density of commercial clutter.  Residents who have been there for decades are the ones who seem more reticent about this development because they moved there to escape shopping and apartment type density.

I can relate to that.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Tulsasaurus Rex on June 11, 2015, 10:46:53 am
(http://www.tulsafrontier.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/ParcelID_highway75.jpg)

For those of us who need such things to follow the story, here's a map courtesy of the Tulsa Frontier. Plus an article (http://www.tulsafrontier.com/city-officials-simon-group-meet-face-to-face-in-attempt-to-salvage-outlet-mall-deal/) to go along.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: patric on June 17, 2015, 08:29:22 pm
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/developer-for-proposed-tulsa-mall-gets-rezoning-hearing-rescheduled/article_e990a478-571f-5a8c-a650-745d76da0d53.html

It appears Turkey Mountain is still on the burner.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: SXSW on June 23, 2015, 08:40:19 pm
Yet another example of how special the Turkey Mountain urban wilderness is and how lucky Tulsa is to have this in the city limits...waterfalls in the gulch by the Mystery Trail.  You have to catch it after rains though as it's typically just a trickle or dry.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-v-a8J_Ehgvc/VYYfqRogU4I/AAAAAAAAGgI/CdzqEVnXjAs/s640/DSC_0569.jpg)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-simW1cMHgG8/VYYgFSfjF-I/AAAAAAAAGgg/QRC68-D5W0I/s640/DSC_0581.jpg)

http://brianstrailjournal.blogspot.com/ (http://brianstrailjournal.blogspot.com/)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on June 24, 2015, 08:06:33 am
I was completely unaware of that until you posted it, that is very, very cool...and unexpected.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: SouthTulsaCountyDude on July 09, 2015, 10:16:01 am
Anyone heard anything further about this going to Jenks?   


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on July 09, 2015, 03:07:18 pm
I’ve been told by someone in development that it’s all but a done deal in Jenks.  However, I don’t see Simon announcing anything else until the COT does one thing or the other about the Horizon development in east Tulsa.  Simon will keep showing interest in the proposed land swap and wait until the city turns a cold shoulder on Horizon then Simon will crap on the COT and announce the Jenks deal is going ahead.  Or they simply pack their bags and leave town having spent somewhere around +/- $500K to provide all the optics to keep competitors from building an outlet mall in Tulsa.

The Woodmont/Cherokee deal seems to be DOA at least as far as it being an outlet mall the size of something which would compete with either Simon or Horizon.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cannon_fodder on July 09, 2015, 03:27:24 pm
It's a smart play from Simon's perspective to keep the City of Tulsa on the line, it hinders their competitors and costs Simon nothing. If the City of Tulsa is happy to get played, then so be it. Unless the City knows something that isn't public. Frankly, the silence is a bit scary. I wouldn't be surprised if our benevolent development overlords are working on deals to make the Turkey Mountain site a go in spite of opposition. "We'll go to Jenks damnit! OK OK! Build whatever you want! Do you need a Golden Driller? We have a stautte of the father of Route 66. Take 'em!"

Has anyone ever figure out why the City seems to set on doing a deal with Simon? There are TWO proposals out there in the City of Tulsa, one met with loud opposition and came with strings attached, the other seems relatively simple. Am I missing something?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on July 09, 2015, 03:36:40 pm
It's a smart play from Simon's perspective to keep the City of Tulsa on the line, it hinders their competitors and costs Simon nothing. If the City of Tulsa is happy to get played, then so be it. Unless the City knows something that isn't public. Frankly, the silence is a bit scary. I wouldn't be surprised if our benevolent development overlords are working on deals to make the Turkey Mountain site a go in spite of opposition. "We'll go to Jenks damnit! OK OK! Build whatever you want! Do you need a Golden Driller? We have a stautte of the father of Route 66. Take 'em!"

Has anyone ever figure out why the City seems to set on doing a deal with Simon? There are TWO proposals out there in the City of Tulsa, one met with loud opposition and came with strings attached, the other seems relatively simple. Am I missing something?

Simon is large enough to shove the competitors out.

I'm most afraid of your scenario, Tulsa is going to cave on everything at Turkey Mountain to keep the development from going to Jenks.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on July 10, 2015, 09:47:09 am
Simon is large enough to shove the competitors out.

I'm most afraid of your scenario, Tulsa is going to cave on everything at Turkey Mountain to keep the development from going to Jenks.

I’m very confident with conversations I’ve had with councilors that the council won’t let it happen.  There’s no way the city can circumvent their approval, even if Simon came up with a plan which fit the existing zoning, it would have to go before TMAPC and the Council due to the corridor zoning already in place.  That part was explained to me by a councilor who should know what he’s talking about.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on July 10, 2015, 09:51:08 am
My preference still will be to see it on the west bank of the river complimentary to downtown and the gathering place. Put the mall and Top Golf together with some housing and hotel space around it.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on July 10, 2015, 09:56:39 am
My preference still will be to see it on the west bank of the river complimentary to downtown and the gathering place. Put the mall and Top Golf together with some housing and hotel space around it.



I don’t think there is a parcel large enough to accommodate Simon at the river.  One of the Simon VPs related to me that they needed 35 to 37 acres at a minimum.  I don’t think there’s that much acreage available along the west bank without shutting down trails, the refinery, or other commercial/residential sites.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: dsjeffries on July 10, 2015, 10:10:04 am
I don’t think there is a parcel large enough to accommodate Simon at the river.  One of the Simon VPs related to me that they their standard low-density sprawling one-floor suburban parking model needed 35 to 37 acres at a minimum.  I don’t think there’s that much acreage available along the west bank without shutting down trails, the refinery, or other commercial/residential sites.

Fixed it.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on July 10, 2015, 10:19:35 am
I don’t think there is a parcel large enough to accommodate Simon at the river.  One of the Simon VPs related to me that they needed 35 to 37 acres at a minimum.  I don’t think there’s that much acreage available along the west bank without shutting down trails, the refinery, or other commercial/residential sites.

Structured parking paid for by a TIFF fixes all that.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on July 20, 2015, 12:30:30 pm
It’s finally official, Simon is bugging out and pursuing the Jenks site:

http://www.tulsafrontier.com/developer-scraps-plans-for-outlet-mall-near-turkey-mountain/

Quote
Developer scraps plans for outlet mall near Turkey Mountain

07.20.2015 | Kevin Canfield | Government
By KEVIN CANFIELD
The Frontier

Simon Property Group has pulled its zoning application to build an outlet mall at West 61st Street and Highway 75 near Turkey Mountain.

The company notified the Tulsa Metropolitan Area Planning Commission of its decision this morning. Simon was scheduled to appear before the Planning Commission on Aug. 19.

Tulsa City Manager Jim Twombly said Simon notified the city of it decision.

“They did give us call and let us know,” Twombly said. “At the same time they said, ‘keep in touch,’ and they still have an interest in the Highway 75 corridor.

“But they did say they are pursuing the Jenks site.”

The retail giant announced plans last year to build Premium Outlet Mall on 48 acres of private property on the northeast corner of U.S. 75 and West 61st Street near Turkey Mountain Urban Wilderness Area.

The proposal drew strong opposition from Turkey Mountain enthusiasts and luke-warm support from city councilors.

In May, city officials in Jenks announced that Simon had decided to move the project south to land across the Creek Turnpike from the Oklahoma Aquarium. But neither Simon nor the city of Jenks has commented on the possible move since.

Tulsa officials responded to that news by intensifying their efforts to keep the mall in the city.

Twombly had said previously that city officials were speaking weekly with Simon to assist in finding a suitable location along the Highway 75 corridor between 61st and 81st streets.

Kevin@readfrontier.com
918-645-5452

Posted in Government


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cynical on July 20, 2015, 12:35:04 pm
Since the application never got to the point of being decided, it appears to me that the developer has waived any claim for inverse condemnation, quite possibly on behalf of itself and the landowner.

Now that the heat is off, will the proponents of including this property in the park continue their efforts? It might seem like a good time to relax, but if you really want to lock down this land, keep going. I wouldn't count on things ever being the same as they were.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on July 20, 2015, 01:36:52 pm
Since the application never got to the point of being decided, it appears to me that the developer has waived any claim for inverse condemnation, quite possibly on behalf of itself and the landowner.

Now that the heat is off, will the proponents of including this property in the park continue their efforts? It might seem like a good time to relax, but if you really want to lock down this land, keep going. I wouldn't count on things ever being the same as they were.

Absolutely the efforts will continue.  There’s been discussions with potential donors who have taken a wait-and-see attitude until Simon finally did something official on this land.  Expect to see news in the very short future about TUWC pushing ahead on fund-raising efforts.  TUWC already has an account specifically for land acquisition set up with Tulsa Community Foundation and the 501(c)(3) status was approved a couple of months ago by the IRS.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: DowntownDan on July 20, 2015, 03:27:14 pm
I still think that the one planned near the Hard Rock Casino will be the only one built.  There is no way more than one outlet mall is necessary or feasible, and theirs seems to have the best existing infrastructure, roads, hotels, and demographics make sense.  A lot of the out of town casino crowd will probably do outlet shopping as well, and might attract people mainly for the outlet mall that stay for the casino.  It's unfortunate that the City of Tulsa loses sales taxes, but their plan seems to be the farthest along and to make the most sense.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: SouthTulsaCountyDude on July 20, 2015, 03:39:00 pm
..... but their plan seems to be the farthest along and to make the most sense.

farthest along?    How?   Where have you seen or heard that?  Have heard very little progress on it. 


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: DowntownDan on July 20, 2015, 03:51:05 pm
farthest along?    How?   Where have you seen or heard that?  Have heard very little progress on it. 

I saw some plans a few months ago, actual plans, renderings, plans for reconfiguring the golf course, etc.  They aren't in the Simon mess of having chosen the dumbest site possible and having to start over.  I saw something on the East Tulsa development a few months ago but it didn't seem very far along.  Maybe I'm wrong on it, but I  don't see how Simon is going to win having to start over and now pursuing another bad site, at least in my opinion it's a poor site and a waste of river side property.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on July 20, 2015, 04:30:03 pm
I saw some plans a few months ago, actual plans, renderings, plans for reconfiguring the golf course, etc.  They aren't in the Simon mess of having chosen the dumbest site possible and having to start over.  I saw something on the East Tulsa development a few months ago but it didn't seem very far along.  Maybe I'm wrong on it, but I  don't see how Simon is going to win having to start over and now pursuing another bad site, at least in my opinion it's a poor site and a waste of river side property.

Plans like this from two months ago?
(http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/960/img/photos/2015/05/21/8c/23/Mallsite.png)
(http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/960/img/photos/2014/12/05/cd/98/Outlet_mall_1.JPG)

Jenks is a top 10 or so wealthiest zip code in the state and the location is directly across the river from the number one wealthiest zip code. It sits directly next to a six lane expressway and the improved streets and highway exit were already voted on and approved and work starts on them in the next few weeks.

I would have preferred a location at 23rd on the west bank, but for an outlet mall this is hardly a bad location.

As for Catoosa and East Tulsa, the companies looking to build outlet malls at those locations are small companies. Woodmont in Catoosa is a privately held Texas real estate company that owns and/or manages 15 million square feet of space. Horizon in East Tulsa (also the owner of the OKC outlet mall) is a publicly traded REIT with a market cap of $15 million.

Simon is North America's largest commercial property company that owns and manages some 240 million square feet of commercial real estate and has a market cap of $57 billion.

There's nothing wrong with the other two projects or the companies behind them, but once Simon comes into the mix the others are going to lose. Tulsa can only have one outlet mall and if Simon wants this market, they will get it.




Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on July 20, 2015, 05:23:24 pm
We will now have a lot of attractions in the same general area, Margaritaville Casino and Resort, The Oklahoma Aquarium, the outlet shops, Jenks' Main Street antique stores, and Riverwalk with I Fly (Top Golf type place) and restaurants. I see many new hotels in the area soon.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on July 20, 2015, 08:49:43 pm
Simon is the big gorilla in the mall business.  Some retailers are tired of their heavy-handed tactics, and yet, others like the predictability of what they get for their rent.  Those who are disenchanted are why companies like Tanger, Woodmont, Taubman, and Horizon have managed to carve out a small percentage of outlet malls here and there.

Simon’s proposed site in Jenks makes a ton of sense, as it’s on a spur from an Interstate and it’s fairly intuitive to find for travelers coming from NWA and eastern Oklahoma.  As Swake says, there’s plenty of other attractions in the area that can make this a really good destination.  That’s assuming Simon really plans to build in the area.  I still wish they would have taken a more serious look when Skip Steele had shown them the east Tulsa site three years ago.

From what I understand, Dewby is still insisting that Simon is interested in either trying to partner with Horizon or in one of the other sites the city has suggested.  I highly recommend the city jump on the Horizon train and get behind it if they really want the sales tax dollars.  If COT still thinks they have a shot, they are delusional.  His office apparently not researched Simon’s sneaky tactics near as close as I have over the last year.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on July 20, 2015, 10:02:40 pm
Simon is the big gorilla in the mall business.  Some retailers are tired of their heavy-handed tactics, and yet, others like the predictability of what they get for their rent.  Those who are disenchanted are why companies like Tanger, Woodmont, Taubman, and Horizon have managed to carve out a small percentage of outlet malls here and there.

Simon’s proposed site in Jenks makes a ton of sense, as it’s on a spur from an Interstate Turnpike and it’s fairly intuitive to find for travelers coming from NWA and eastern Oklahoma now that the turnpike has a number.  As Swake says, there’s plenty of other attractions in the area that can make this a really good destination.  That’s assuming Simon really plans to build in the area.  I still wish they would have taken a more serious look when Skip Steele had shown them the east Tulsa site three years ago.

From what I understand, Dewby is still insisting that Simon is interested in either trying to partner with Horizon or in one of the other sites the city has suggested.  I highly recommend the city jump on the Horizon train and get behind it if they really want the sales tax dollars.  If COT still thinks they have a shot, they are delusional.  His office apparently not researched Simon’s sneaky tactics near as close as I have over the last year.

FIFY


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on July 20, 2015, 10:10:32 pm
FIFY

“264” AKA The Creek Turnpike is a semi/sort-of spur from Interstate 44, that is what I was referencing.  The chosen site in Jenks would not be a “spur” from the turnpike/264 or whatever we want to call it.  YMMV.  ;D


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Hoss on July 20, 2015, 10:21:27 pm
“264” AKA The Creek Turnpike is a semi/sort-of spur from Interstate 44, that is what I was referencing.  The chosen site in Jenks would not be a “spur” from the turnpike/264 or whatever we want to call it.  YMMV.  ;D

364.  :)  They're calling the Muskogee turnpike 351.  Probably only a matter of time before they name the Indian Nation 375.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Breadburner on July 21, 2015, 06:06:06 am
They should build it in the middle of the river....Now...what could they call it.......


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: SouthTulsaCountyDude on July 21, 2015, 06:40:07 am
Plans like this from two months ago?
(http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/960/img/photos/2015/05/21/8c/23/Mallsite.png)
(http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/960/img/photos/2014/12/05/cd/98/Outlet_mall_1.JPG)

Jenks is a top 10 or so wealthiest zip code in the state and the location is directly across the river from the number one wealthiest zip code. It sits directly next to a six lane expressway and the improved streets and highway exit were already voted on and approved and work starts on them in the next few weeks.

I would have preferred a location at 23rd on the west bank, but for an outlet mall this is hardly a bad location.

As for Catoosa and East Tulsa, the companies looking to build outlet malls at those locations are small companies. Woodmont in Catoosa is a privately held Texas real estate company that owns and/or manages 15 million square feet of space. Horizon in East Tulsa (also the owner of the OKC outlet mall) is a publicly traded REIT with a market cap of $15 million.

Simon is North America's largest commercial property company that owns and manages some 240 million square feet of commercial real estate and has a market cap of $57 billion.

There's nothing wrong with the other two projects or the companies behind them, but once Simon comes into the mix the others are going to lose. Tulsa can only have one outlet mall and if Simon wants this market, they will get it.





Yup, agreed.   Couldn't have said it better myself.    :)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cannon_fodder on July 21, 2015, 09:29:09 am
I always see these types as missed opportunities. Instead of strip malls and acres of surface parking, they could accomplish the same thing and do something interesting, and that lasts. Build an entire faux mainstreet, occupy an old building, revitalize an entire area... Make it a destination. Not just another strip mall thrift store.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: DTowner on July 21, 2015, 01:57:08 pm
I was in Las Vegas last week and walked around the Simon outlet mall.  It was similar in layout to this plan, except much bigger and with structured parking.  It had all usual schlock one would expect (is it a law every outlet mall have a Van Heusen store?), but also a lot of very high end designer brands (Armani, Ted Baker, John Varvatos, Carolina Herrera, etc.).  Not sure we will get many of the truly high end stores here no matter where the mall is located.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Tulsasaurus Rex on September 01, 2015, 08:44:26 am
Quote from: The Frontier
River Parks, others, want to expand Turkey Mountain footprint

I’m surprised no one is talking about Turkey Mountain.

Now that the folks behind a proposed outlet mall at 61st Street and Highway 75 have scrapped the idea— or so it seems — a multi-prong effort is afoot to ensure that as much of the beloved area as possible remains undeveloped.

Haven’t you heard?

River Parks Authority has asked city councilors for $5.6 million from the Vision 2025 sales tax renewal to expand Turkey Mountain’s footprint.

Another nonprofit, Tulsa Urban Wilderness Coalition, wants $4.5 million for the same purpose and $5.5 million for enhancements to the area.

And Planning and Leadership Academy Tulsa, a group of community-minded high school students, has gotten together to request Vision renewal funds with the same goals in mind.

River Parks’ intent, according to a handout provided to city councilors, is to acquire enough land to “secure contiguous recreational properties from the (Arkansas) river to Highway 75, north of 61st Street.”

That would include the 52-plus acres on the northeast corner of 61st Street and Highway 75 where Simon Properties’ Premium Outlet Mall was to have been built, River Parks Executive Director Matt Meyer told councilors.

Last week, Meyer told the Frontier that the possible purchase is nothing more than an idea. The property is owned Beeline Sixty-One Properties.

“We don’t have a contract or anything,” Meyer said. “Nobody has offered any land to us. It is all preliminary.”

The land directly east of the Beeline property and north of 61st Street is owned either by the city of Tulsa or the George Kaiser Family Foundation, or partially owned by GKFF.

The Kaiser Foundation has said previously that it does not intend to develop the land it owns.

Meyer said another possible use for the Vision funding would be to purchase land not owned either by the city, or by GKFF entirely.

“It gives us flexibility” regarding possible land purchases in the area, Meyer said.

(https://www.readfrontier.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Riv.-Parks-Land-purchase-2015-08-28-at-2.10.17-PM.png)

Planning and Leadership Academy Tulsa has proposed that as much as $3.2 million in sales tax from a Vision 2025 renewal be used to purchase the former mall site. As an alternative, PLAT suggested the city split the cost with the Tulsa Urban Wilderness Coalition.

TUWC is seeking donations to purchase the property through the Tulsa Community Foundation.

Which brings us to Tulsa Urban Wilderness Coalition’s pitch for Vision funds.

TUWC has its eyes on different property than those River Parks and PLAT hope to secure.

It wants $4.5 million to buy 151 acres south of 61st Street and east of Highway 75.

The properties include:

  • Approximately 53 acres owned by Siegfried Companies Inc. on the southeast corner of U.S. 75 and 61st Street
  • Approximately 25 acres just south of the Siegfried property owned by McGehee, Leone C. & First National Bank and Trust, OKC
  • Approximately 73 acres owned by Miller, Jennifer L. Trust & Jill S. Johnson Trust to the south and east of the Siegfried property and east of the McGehee property

(https://www.readfrontier.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/TYWC-properties-2015-08-31-at-1.56.08-PM.png)

As you can see, a lot of folks are determined to expand the boundaries of what is  known as Turkey Mountain.

Whether that will happen is another story. Who knows whether any Vision dollars will be allocated for that purpose, or how much.

Waves of people have their hands out. Councilors received more than $2 billion worth of requests to fund economic development projects.

The sales tax, should voters agree to renew it, is expected to raise about $732 million over 15 years, and a large chunk of that will go for river development — remember those dams?— and public safety.

If you’re curious about what $2 billion in Vision requests look like, check out the full list of proposed projects at https://www.cityoftulsa.org/our-city/vision/submitted-proposals.aspx

City councilors have said they plan to hold town hall meetings to present their Vision 2025 renewal proposal to voters before it is placed on the ballot in April.

That means a lot of cutting between now and then.

https://www.readfrontier.com/river-parks-others-want-to-expand-turkey-mountain-footprint/


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 01, 2015, 09:25:53 am
God that would be amazing. PROTECT WHAT WE ALREADY ENJOY.

If the land South of 61st was brought into the mix, a ton of stuff could be done with the space. A world class destination for biking. ultra marathons, etc. Get the Creeks to build a cultural center and do educational hikes.

Glad to see people trying to make it happen!


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rdj on September 01, 2015, 09:30:17 am
Would the proposed BMW World HQ fit in with these plans, as far as locating it on one of these tracts?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on September 01, 2015, 12:23:05 pm
I'm a little confused why, after fighting to keep the outlet mall off of one plot of land, TUWC is trying to raise money to preserve land across the street instead of the plot they fought for.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on September 01, 2015, 01:56:44 pm
I'm a little confused why, after fighting to keep the outlet mall off of one plot of land, TUWC is trying to raise money to preserve land across the street instead of the plot they fought for.

I can understand the confusion.  Allow me to clarify why that was not in TUWC’s ask:

By the time funds would be dispersed for V-2025 extension, if it passes and if Turkey Mountain expansion is included on that slate of funds, it could be years down the road.  The “Simon” tract is on development radar and has existing commercial zoning for the taking.  There are fund-raising efforts on multiple fronts underway to secure the 60 acre parcel on the NE corner sooner rather than later to try and prevent someone else from slipping in and purchasing the property for development.  Hopefully that will be done and closed on prior to when this even hits the ballot next April.

The expansion to the south of 61st is some of the “game-changing” or “moving the needle” logic the council was searching for;  a swing for the fence, if you will.  In TUWC’s presentation, it was identified that the land previously eyed by Simon would have been acquired for preservation via other means so this would be the target for TUWC’s land expansion.  Adding another 151 acres to the park would be amazing and become an even bigger attraction for outdoor events.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on September 01, 2015, 03:50:07 pm
I can understand the confusion.  Allow me to clarify why that was not in TUWC’s ask:

By the time funds would be dispersed for V-2025 extension, if it passes and if Turkey Mountain expansion is included on that slate of funds, it could be years down the road.  The “Simon” tract is on development radar and has existing commercial zoning for the taking.  There are fund-raising efforts on multiple fronts underway to secure the 60 acre parcel on the NE corner sooner rather than later to try and prevent someone else from slipping in and purchasing the property for development.  Hopefully that will be done and closed on prior to when this even hits the ballot next April.

The expansion to the south of 61st is some of the “game-changing” or “moving the needle” logic the council was searching for;  a swing for the fence, if you will.  In TUWC’s presentation, it was identified that the land previously eyed by Simon would have been acquired for preservation via other means so this would be the target for TUWC’s land expansion.  Adding another 151 acres to the park would be amazing and become an even bigger attraction for outdoor events.


Then bury, or at least lower, Elwood/61st.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on September 01, 2015, 05:29:38 pm
Then bury, or at least lower, Elwood/61st.
Just remove it east of the highway and keep the park access off of Elwood.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on September 01, 2015, 07:52:18 pm
Just remove it east of the highway and keep the park access off of Elwood.

Bingo!


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 02, 2015, 12:48:40 pm
Then bury, or at least lower, Elwood/61st.

Burying a mile of powerlines costs $25,000,000+. I bet it costs more to lower a road. Safe to say the cost of lowering 61st Street would outstrip the cost of purchasing all the land anyone has ever mention as wanting to be part of Turkey Mountain.  Central park has roads going through it. I'm guessing we can find a decent work around for less than all the money asked for...

(I'd be happy o close the road at the upper lot, and close the road before the first hill coming east from 75)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on September 02, 2015, 01:34:59 pm
Burying a mile of powerlines costs $25,000,000+. I bet it costs more to lower a road. Safe to say the cost of lowering 61st Street would outstrip the cost of purchasing all the land anyone has ever mention as wanting to be part of Turkey Mountain.  Central park has roads going through it. I'm guessing we can find a decent work around for less than all the money asked for...

(I'd be happy o close the road at the upper lot, and close the road before the first hill coming east from 75)

I think you're off by about a magnitude of 10 there!   

Quote
underground power lines cost five to 10 times more than overhead wires
http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/12/us/winter-storm-power-lines/ (http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/12/us/winter-storm-power-lines/)

This lines up pretty well with this:

Quote
A typical new 69 kV overhead single-circuit transmission line costs approximately $285,000 per mile as opposed to $1.5 million per mile for a new 69 kV underground line (without the terminals). A new 138 kV overhead line costs approximately $390,000 per mile as opposed to $2 million per mile for underground (without the terminals).
http://www.elp.com/articles/powergrid_international/print/volume-18/issue-2/features/underground-vs-overhead-power-line-installation-cost-comparison-.html (http://www.elp.com/articles/powergrid_international/print/volume-18/issue-2/features/underground-vs-overhead-power-line-installation-cost-comparison-.html)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: patric on September 02, 2015, 01:46:09 pm
I think you're off by about a magnitude of 10 there!   
 http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/12/us/winter-storm-power-lines/ (http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/12/us/winter-storm-power-lines/)

This lines up pretty well with this:
A typical new 69 kV overhead single-circuit transmission line costs approximately $285,000 per mile as opposed to $1.5 million per mile for a new 69 kV underground line (without the terminals). A new 138 kV overhead line costs approximately $390,000 per mile as opposed to $2 million per mile for underground (without the terminals).
http://www.elp.com/articles/powergrid_international/print/volume-18/issue-2/features/underground-vs-overhead-power-line-installation-cost-comparison-.html (http://www.elp.com/articles/powergrid_international/print/volume-18/issue-2/features/underground-vs-overhead-power-line-installation-cost-comparison-.html)

Those are primary lines which generally withstand our weather. 
Its the secondary lines that get laid waste every spring/fall/winter storm.  Just bury secondaries and see what the price Vs. reliability looks like.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on September 02, 2015, 09:35:47 pm
Just remove it east of the highway and keep the park access off of Elwood.

No, you want to keep two roads in. You could put a parking lot in between and discourage through traffic though.

I didn't say make a tunnel, I'm just saying keep the road at a lower grade so you can add crossings over the roadway connecting the two sections of park. That's not exactly level terrain. They had to do the same amount of dirt work to make it level.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on September 03, 2015, 07:27:29 am
According to Business Insider, no Oklahoma zip codes make the top 15 most prosperous zips in the country. Saying that Jenks is in the top 10 in a poor state to start with is not saying much. Business Insider based their survey on the  percentage of households reporting $150,000 or more in annual income.


And there he is ladies and gentlemen! And first post is about the poors being in Oklahoma.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AquaMan on September 03, 2015, 09:07:52 am
Where did he post that?

And BTW, detecting chauvinism is not slamming "the poors". Jenks thinks its pretty special.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 03, 2015, 09:20:35 am
Not to drive this thread off the rails further... but, 42 states fail to make the list of "states without one of the 15 richest zip code."  CT and VA are hoarding them. But you wouldn't say California, Florida, or Illinois is lacking for affluent suburbs/areas. What a stupid metric to base criticism off of.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on September 03, 2015, 09:44:33 am
Where did he post that?

And BTW, detecting chauvinism is not slamming "the poors". Jenks thinks its pretty special.

He mentions Oklahoma being poor in his very first post. He just couldn't help himself.





Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on September 03, 2015, 10:26:23 am
He mentions Oklahoma being poor in his very first post. He just couldn't help himself.

I had no idea who that was until I found this: http://www.batesline.com/archives/2004/06/doing-tulsa-tim.html (http://www.batesline.com/archives/2004/06/doing-tulsa-tim.html)

From his own description, that guy sounds oh so smart!  :D


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AquaMan on September 03, 2015, 12:36:23 pm
He nailed Swake pretty frequently which is why Swake can take a sentence describing (truthfully), that Oklahoma is a poor state and spin it till it looks like he hates poor people.

Even Bates found him interesting. His tactics were frustrating.

Is anyone else the least bit skeptical of River Parks extending their holdings to include now private land without any real funding or plans for maintaining and developing it? The older I get, the more I distrust Authorities.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on September 03, 2015, 01:15:12 pm
He nailed Swake pretty frequently which is why Swake can take a sentence describing (truthfully), that Oklahoma is a poor state and spin it till it looks like he hates poor people.

Even Bates found him interesting. His tactics were frustrating.

Is anyone else the least bit skeptical of River Parks extending their holdings to include now private land without any real funding or plans for maintaining and developing it? The older I get, the more I distrust Authorities.

Davaz wasn't ever interesting, just a very dedicated troll. 


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 03, 2015, 01:25:24 pm
Is anyone else the least bit skeptical of River Parks extending their holdings to include now private land without any real funding or plans for maintaining and developing it? The older I get, the more I distrust Authorities.

I'm not. Government in general, sure. But River Parks has done a great job, they've earned my trust.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on September 03, 2015, 01:49:10 pm
I'm not. Government in general, sure. But River Parks has done a great job, they've earned my trust.

Don't step on Waterboy's heart like that!


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rebound on September 03, 2015, 02:17:21 pm
Not to drive this thread off the rails further... but, 42 states fail to make the list of "states without one of the 15 richest zip code."  CT and VA are hoarding them. But you wouldn't say California, Florida, or Illinois is lacking for affluent suburbs/areas. What a stupid metric to base criticism off of.

My first thought was, did they consider cost of living per zip code, and consider income against that?  OK has one of the lowest costs of living of any state, and while the absolute income may be low, the relative affulence could me much different.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AquaMan on September 03, 2015, 04:53:52 pm
My first thought was, did they consider cost of living per zip code, and consider income against that?  OK has one of the lowest costs of living of any state, and while the absolute income may be low, the relative affulence could me much different.

FWIW, I thought the comment was lacking much credibility standing on its own. Don't know the context. Its not how much you make as much as how much you have left after taxes, expense of living and what that standard of living is.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AquaMan on September 03, 2015, 05:03:51 pm
I'm not. Government in general, sure. But River Parks has done a great job, they've earned my trust.

You can do better than that. After your Iron Gate comments I'm losing trust in you! Finding a sugar daddy for Turkey Mtn, the paths and the Assembling place within the last few years was triumphant. But there was 40 years before that. Research their history, talk to former employees, contractors and tenants. Ask yourself if you would invest in that organization. Like most Authorities their purpose is to gain and hold as much power as will be afforded them, then exclude any criticisms as coming from fruitcakes. These people assured me I have no right to use a public waterway without their permission. Many stories, tons of prevarication abound, never to be told.

Or listen to Swake who has no direct experience with them, belittles mine and lives in a Jenks zip code.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Breadburner on September 04, 2015, 06:11:11 am
You can do better than that. After your Iron Gate comments I'm losing trust in you! Finding a sugar daddy for Turkey Mtn, the paths and the Assembling place within the last few years was triumphant. But there was 40 years before that. Research their history, talk to former employees, contractors and tenants. Ask yourself if you would invest in that organization. Like most Authorities their purpose is to gain and hold as much power as will be afforded them, then exclude any criticisms as coming from fruitcakes. These people assured me I have no right to use a public waterway without their permission. Many stories, tons of prevarication abound, never to be told.

Or listen to Swake who has no direct experience with them, belittles mine and lives in a Jenks zip code.


There were some weirdos in the RPA for sure.....Rather cult like and incestuous.....


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 04, 2015, 07:33:23 am
Fill me in Aquaman!

I'm only  been around for 13 years. In my time here they have massively upgraded the trails. Taken over Oktoberfest and not destroyed it. Improved Turkey Mountain. And orchestrated the Gathering Place deal. All with no noted scandal, budget crisis. or anything else that has broken in the media.

That's damn good for a government authority.

I'm unaware of the checkered past - fill me in please.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AquaMan on September 04, 2015, 03:37:28 pm
That feels like a trap. It is a trap. Most of my posts regarding my experiences with RPA and my suggestions have disappeared.Too bad for those who arrived after 2004. I'm not conspiratorial at all. Well, maybe a little. That is/was a vengeful group and I have long since forgiven them personally yet will never forget how they operated. But, perhaps you're right. Maybe they should only be judged by what the public sees and reads. Just don't be so gullible to think they care what you think unless you have some money or power. Pay close attention when they want more of either.

Really, a rehash of the past is merely a chance for others to accuse me of sour grapes and doesn't serve me well. Suffice it to say, they are no different than the Airport Authority, MTTA or the Economic Development Authority that enable some and destroy others.

Will that do or do you want names, dates, transgressions and places?

Media. That's humorous. Letters in local organizations are the circled wagons. TPS, RPA, EDC, TPD, TCSO etc. They are the fount of information for media. Screw them and you are blacklisted from their PR function. Other than TCSO have you heard any groundbreaking investigative journalism in the last decade? If it hadn't been for a local law firm living off TCSO that story would never have made it past 5:30.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 08, 2015, 08:25:33 am
I got here in 2003.

Since that time the Airport Authority has entered into sweet heart dels that were voided, obligated the City to loan payments that it was voided, and, well, gotten in some messes.

The Economic Development Gods have tanked a couple of deals, dolled out corporate welfare, and considered anything and everything "Development" even if a model would indicate it might be a net loss.

The MTTA, as far as I know, has not had any major scandals since I've been here. Pretty much just making due with a low budget and few people giving a damn about their mission.

I have no doubt the Authority serves its own interest. Most organizations become self serving beasts to some extent even if they are trying to do good (see, .e.g., the Red Cross).  But since I have been here, River Parks has done their job and done it well. I know you have had some fights over the river with various groups, agencies, authorities, and people... but I haven't heard of a grand scandal involving River Parks that operated to the detriment of the citizens. Since I've been here, they have vastly improved things. So i have to base it on my experience unless advised otherwise (feel free to PM me, I'm not setting a trap, I'm looking for info).

All that said, I saw an airboat on the Arkansas yesterday and thought of you. :)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AquaMan on September 08, 2015, 12:42:28 pm
I will pm you. I'm not too sure of the security of those pm's, but I can give you some general problems not publicly known for informational value only.

BTW, I had no problems, including fights, with any other group, agency, or authority. However, I was blamed for most everything negative on the river. I was alternately either a genius or a disaster. One steroidal rowing crew member threatened me, a fisherman threw his bait near my boat as I approached shore and I was blamed for everything from least tern deaths to broken plaster a mile away. A drunk Oktoberfest volunteer cursed me and a woman once flashed her breasts at me from a festival as we passed by. A homeless group shot at me from the woods across from the refinery and a redneck peppered my kayak group with stray .22 target bullets. But no real groups, agencies or other authorities.










Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rebound on September 08, 2015, 01:20:01 pm
I will pm you. I'm not too sure of the security of those pm's, but I can give you some general problems not publicly known for informational value only.

BTW, I had no problems, including fights, with any other group, agency, or authority. However, I was blamed for most everything negative on the river. I was alternately either a genius or a disaster. One steroidal rowing crew member threatened me, a fisherman threw his bait near my boat as I approached shore and I was blamed for everything from least tern deaths to broken plaster a mile away. A drunk Oktoberfest volunteer cursed me and a woman once flashed her breasts at me from a festival as we passed by. A homeless group shot at me from the woods across from the refinery and a redneck peppered my kayak group with stray .22 target bullets. But no real groups, agencies or other authorities.
---------------


OK, now I am seriously intrigued.  What were you doing that elicited these responses?  Inquiring minds and all that. 

Also, I've got three kayaks, and am serious that  I would welcome a chance to kayak the whole thing from the dam down.  If you ever decide to get a group together, let me know.   









Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on September 08, 2015, 01:35:08 pm
I will pm you. I'm not too sure of the security of those pm's, but I can give you some general problems not publicly known for informational value only.

BTW, I had no problems, including fights, with any other group, agency, or authority. However, I was blamed for most everything negative on the river. I was alternately either a genius or a disaster. One steroidal rowing crew member threatened me, a fisherman threw his bait near my boat as I approached shore and I was blamed for everything from least tern deaths to broken plaster a mile away. A drunk Oktoberfest volunteer cursed me and a woman once flashed her breasts at me from a festival as we passed by. A homeless group shot at me from the woods across from the refinery and a redneck peppered my kayak group with stray .22 target bullets. But no real groups, agencies or other authorities.

Dam, I had no no idea it was all Mad Max, Below Zink Lake down there.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AquaMan on September 08, 2015, 06:20:34 pm
Well, it was above Zink Lake for the most part. I spent little time on the lake, usually picking up and dropping off. I suspect you're laughing at me, but it was an exciting business. It was a loss for Tulsa. I was so many years ahead of appreciation for the river. And I was so naïve. Discover Tulsa used the footage from their trip on their credits for several years.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rdj on September 09, 2015, 07:33:11 am


...and a woman once flashed her breasts at me from a festival as we passed by.



Pics or it didn't happen!


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AquaMan on September 09, 2015, 08:48:08 am
Someone has them. I was driving. At any rate it wasn't unusual to see naked people around the river. Our first trip we came across some folks passed out on a sand bar by the refinery. Even the sound of my motor didn't rouse them. Getting a full body tan after the previous night s party.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 10, 2015, 01:21:48 pm
I will pm you. I'm not too sure of the security of those pm's, but I can give you some general problems not publicly known for informational value only.

BTW, I had no problems, including fights, with any other group, agency, or authority. However, I was blamed for most everything negative on the river. I was alternately either a genius or a disaster. One steroidal rowing crew member threatened me, a fisherman threw his bait near my boat as I approached shore and I was blamed for everything from least tern deaths to broken plaster a mile away. A drunk Oktoberfest volunteer cursed me and a woman once flashed her breasts at me from a festival as we passed by. A homeless group shot at me from the woods across from the refinery and a redneck peppered my kayak group with stray .22 target bullets. But no real groups, agencies or other authorities.




Ahhh...the truth is out - it is YOU causing all these earthquakes!!  Couldn't possibly be oil business....  It all makes sense now!!



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: LeGenDz on September 11, 2015, 01:20:38 pm
Well it's official. Jenks it is.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: LeGenDz on September 11, 2015, 01:33:24 pm
Quote
Outlet mall officially announced for Jenks, not near Tulsa's Turkey Mountain


The outlet mall that met backlash from people who use trails on private land near Turkey Mountain is officially building in Jenks, the developer said Friday.
The announcement from Simon Premium Outlets came months after the development group's brochure had called Jenks the home of Tulsa Premium Outlets and Jenks Mayor Kelly Dunkerley confirmed the move.
Construction on the outlet mall is scheduled to start in Spring 2016, with an opening in Summer 2017, according to the announcement.
The first phase of the development is planned to encompass 325,000 square feet with 80 to 90 retail options.
The new site is along the south side of the Creek Turnpike just west of the Arkansas River in Jenks' River District.
"We are eager to serve the entire Tulsa metropolitan market from this location," said Mark Silvestri, COO of Simon Premium Outlets. "We are really looking forward to bringing our vision of value shopping, which has been extremely popular throughout the world, to Tulsa."
The statement from Silvestri did not address the move from Tulsa city limits into Jenks, which Tulsa officials have been hoping to avoid for months.
The move strips the city of Tulsa of an estimated $4 million to $5 million each year that would have gone into the city's sales-tax-based budget.
The original plan for the mall to be built near Turkey Mountain drew strong reaction from Turkey Mountain Urban Wilderness patrons who feared that the outlet mall would encroach on their outdoor activities and the natural setting.

http://m.tulsaworld.com/news/local/outlet-mall-officially-announced-for-jenks-not-near-tulsa-s/article_d8906d5b-b2a9-523b-a1fe-6b59b5efabc7.html?mode=jqm


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Townsend on September 11, 2015, 02:10:12 pm
Well it's official. Jenks it is.

Parking lot runoff straight into the river instead of into Turkey Mountain.

The mall doesn't look that great in the mock ups so I'm going to guess it's going to look worse.  To me, this is a "meh".


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 11, 2015, 02:46:38 pm
100% "meh."  Even if it happens. Which is 50/50.

I naturally crave more sales tax revenue for Tulsa - but we keep getting more and more retail space and it never seems to solve our revenue problem. So I'm not so gun-ho about selling out for sales tax revenue. That model needs to due anyway.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: DowntownDan on September 14, 2015, 09:03:35 am
It'll be a depressing ghost town in 20 years.  Outlet malls have run their course.  Texas has a few that are still successful, but a bunch are really sad and creepy with a few stores still around and handful of customers. 


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on September 14, 2015, 10:07:29 am
Simon’s construction schedule seemed more ambitious with the Turkey Mountain location, construction was to have started about now.  Doesn’t sound like they are too concerned about the Woodmont/Cherokee project or the Horizon one moving forward since they won’t break ground until next spring.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: TheArtist on September 14, 2015, 01:54:55 pm
100% "meh."  Even if it happens. Which is 50/50.

I naturally crave more sales tax revenue for Tulsa - but we keep getting more and more retail space and it never seems to solve our revenue problem. So I'm not so gun-ho about selling out for sales tax revenue. That model needs to due anyway.

Would the tax revenue from the Turkey Mountain development or the other Tulsa offered place have gone to Tulsa schools?  From what I gather the Tulsa Hills development goes to Jenks Schools.  Union gets the Woodland Hills areas tax income.  We could indeed use some Tulsa retail development for Tulsa's schools.  What do we have now, the Promenade area?  

Another reason to shop downtown and DECOPOLIS if you ask me! Not that I am biased or anything.  


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Hoss on September 14, 2015, 02:19:22 pm
Would the tax revenue from the Turkey Mountain development or the other Tulsa offered place have gone to Tulsa schools?  From what I gather the Tulsa Hills development goes to Jenks Schools.  Union gets the Woodland Hills areas tax income.  We could indeed use some Tulsa retail development for Tulsa's schools.  What do we have now, the Promenade area?  

Another reason to shop downtown and DECOPOLIS if you ask me! Not that I am biased or anything.  

Property tax would have given that is disbursed based on school district.  Sales tax is based on city limits/county limits.  So, property tax to Tulsa (as it was on the very southern boundary of the TPS district at 61st).  The new location is obviously Jenks for property and sales tax.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rdj on September 14, 2015, 02:46:26 pm
The retail sales tax collection does not go to the school systems under the current tax code.  The school systems receive a portion of the ad valorem (property) tax.  They use their ad valorem tax base to determine their bonding capacity which allows for capital improvements and textbooks (and a few others such as buses) but no operating costs such as salaries.  TIF Districts freeze property valuations which affects the assessment and the tax base.  This is why school boards have to approve TIF Districts.

This is a long winded way of saying TPS would have received a bump from Simon locating to 61st & HWY 75, but not for many years as the TIF would have frozen the value.  The River District in Jenks is already in a TIF district so it's already frozen and JPS won't have any say in this new development.

As an aside, moving all of this land into non-profit land is a blow to TPS.  If this land were to ever be developed it would be property tax dollars that could go into improving the facilities of TPS.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 14, 2015, 05:57:30 pm
By that logic any and all land ever moved into nonprofit hands is a blow to TPS. Philbrook. The Rose Garden. The hospitals. Let alone all the churches...


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: TheArtist on September 14, 2015, 09:33:53 pm
Ah, I knew that on the one hand, but guess I have gotten some things mixed up in my mind.  I hear things like Union gets so much money because of the mall etc. and forget that its not the sales tax its the property tax, the value of the property.  Which I suppose if you have a store in an area that has high sales volume, it would likely command a higher property value.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rdj on September 15, 2015, 09:03:12 am
By that logic any and all land ever moved into nonprofit hands is a blow to TPS. Philbrook. The Rose Garden. The hospitals. Let alone all the churches...

Hence why Broken Arrow makes it hard on churches to expand...and why Jenks put restrictions in deeds that the landowners have to produce sales tax.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 15, 2015, 12:26:26 pm
Hence why Broken Arrow makes it hard on churches to expand...and why Jenks put restrictions in deeds that the landowners have to produce sales tax.


What??   Oh...I get it...you're kidding, right??


Lol...Broken Arrow...hard for churches to expand...lol.  Well played, rdj....!!



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: rdj on September 15, 2015, 03:17:54 pm

What??   Oh...I get it...you're kidding, right??


Lol...Broken Arrow...hard for churches to expand...lol.  Well played, rdj....!!



Actually, no that wasn't a joke.  I know of three congregations that had great issues with the City of Broken Arrow in obtaining permits.  Two were specifically told it was because they are a church that doesn't generate tax revenue.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 15, 2015, 04:48:07 pm
Actually, no that wasn't a joke.  I know of three congregations that had great issues with the City of Broken Arrow in obtaining permits.  Two were specifically told it was because they are a church that doesn't generate tax revenue.


Must be because First Baptist and Rhema have such a choke hold on that town.  They don't want the competition.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Hoss on September 15, 2015, 10:35:03 pm
Actually, no that wasn't a joke.  I know of three congregations that had great issues with the City of Broken Arrow in obtaining permits.  Two were specifically told it was because they are a church that doesn't generate tax revenue.

As an electrical engineer, my brother told crazy tales of having to deal with Broken Arrow.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 17, 2015, 11:21:10 am
As an electrical engineer, my brother told crazy tales of having to deal with Broken Arrow.


When you realize you are actually dealing with First Baptist and Rhema, everything is fine.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on November 13, 2015, 08:40:36 am
The “job gettinist” mayor is at it again.  How big a facepalm can I get here? 

Quote
I had to check back with the mayor on this one.

Because here is what he said Thursday morning during a discussion with city councilors about whether River Parks should receive $5.6 million in Vision 2025 renewal funds to buy and preserve land on Turkey Mountain:

“My suggestion … would be that certain portions of the land in the area be set aside for purposes that would generate sales tax for the city of Tulsa. In other words, right on top of Turkey Mountain have an area set aside for a restaurant, beautiful views of the city, a place for people when they go walking, they could go see it. …

“The community, the taxpayers, not all are interested in walking through the woods at Turkey Mountain, but they will be very interested in going up to a restaurant or going up to a facility where they could sit and watch, look, experience nature, whatever that might be.”

The mayor prefaced his remarks by saying that efforts to put together a deal to purchase and preserve private property on and around Turkey Mountain have yet to yield results and that the city of Tulsa shouldn’t assume they will.

Until the city knows whether those discussions will bear any fruit, Bartlett said, it should hold off on allocating Vision funds for buying land near Turkey mountain and work to identify property it does own for potential commercial development.

This will obviously get some people’s blood boiling, which is why I put a call in to the Mayor’s Office. Jarred Brejcha, the mayor’s chief of staff, called me back.

His main point: the mayor is not hell-bent on building a restaurant on Turkey Mountain.

Bartlett does, however, believe it would serve the city well to keep open the possibility of commercial development in the area, Brejcha said.

“The same process that River Parks went through to get the Blue Rose, that is a very good example,” Brejcha said.

The Blue Rose Cafe, built along the Arkansas River at approximately 19th Street and Riverside Drive, was proposed in response to a request for proposals from River Parks Authority.

Even if Turkey Mountain and the surrounding area are preserved, funds will be needed to maintain the area and provide programing, Brejcha said.

That’s where sales tax collections from restaurant or other commercial venue could help defray costs and provide a place to rest or something to eat.

“It could really be something that complements the area,” Brejcha said.

River Parks has asked the council to consider allocating $5.6 million from the Vision 2025 sales tax renewal to expand Turkey Mountain’s footprint.

River Parks’ intent, according to a handout provided to city councilors, is to acquire enough land to “secure contiguous recreational properties from the (Arkansas) river to Highway 75, north of 61st Street.”

That would include the 52-plus acres on the northeast corner of 61st Street and Highway 75 where Simon Properties’ Premium Outlet Mall was to have been built, River Parks Executive Director Matt Meyer told councilors.

This outline of River Park's request for $5.6 million in Vision 2025 renewal funds was presented to city councilors earlier this month.

Councilor Phil Lakin expressed strong support for keeping Turkey Mountain a wilderness area.

Councilor Blake Ewing called Bartlett’s proposal a “land mine waiting to happen” and cautioned councilors that they must be clear with voters about how land purchased with Vision funds would be used.

Bartlett made his remarks during a four-hour-plus meeting with city councilors held to determine what economic-development projects should be included in the Vision renewal.

https://www.readfrontier.com/during-vision-2025-renewal-talks-bartlett-suggests-putting-a-restaurant-on-turkey-mountain/



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cannon_fodder on November 13, 2015, 09:03:11 am
Just started a thread on that specific topic Conan!

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=21185.0;topicseen


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Tulsasaurus Rex on November 25, 2015, 10:29:29 am
https://www.readfrontier.com/jenks-receives-outlet-mall-plans-construction-expected-to-begin-in-the-spring/

(https://www.readfrontier.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Simon-Aerial-22015-11-19-at-4.41.07-PM.png)

Quote
Bell said Jenks made sense as a location for the outlet mall because the city has a Riverfront Entertainment District...“That is what that site called out for, this kind of use,” Bell said. “It fits perfectly.

hahahahahahahaha


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on November 25, 2015, 11:26:19 am
Good for them, I hope they enjoy their auto-centric development.  I’m sure it will look just smashing in 15 years when it sits there 1/2 vacant and Simon is lobbying for tax abatements.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: SXSW on November 25, 2015, 12:36:20 pm
At least they are leaving the riverfront piece for (hopefully) something better in the future, but the site plan ensures it will have no connectivity to it


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cannon_fodder on November 30, 2015, 08:42:29 am
Can the City of Tulsa aggressively manage our Brand and stop them from associating our name with a Jenks development. (no, no they can't. Just sayin')

Also want to point out that the design is actually improved. It also shows a shiny new interchange right next to the river... wonder who pay$ for that. Do you think Tulsa reps are smart enough in OKC to lobby against the DOT funding the interchange?


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on November 30, 2015, 09:12:24 am
It looked to me like they were adding a turnaround at the Jenks turnpike exit so westbound traffic can flip around and go to the mall I think.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on November 30, 2015, 09:14:12 am
Can the City of Tulsa aggressively manage our Brand and stop them from associating our name with a Jenks development. (no, no they can't. Just sayin')

Also want to point out that the design is actually improved. It also shows a shiny new interchange right next to the river... wonder who pay$ for that. Do you think Tulsa reps are smart enough in OKC to lobby against the DOT funding the interchange?

The road project is under construction now and is a joint project of OTA and the city of Jenks. While the new roads help the mall, it was designed to alleviate traffic at the Jenks exit on the Creek Turnpike and traffic on Elm (Peoria) under the turnpike. There's not actually a new highway exit next to the river, but the current exit ramps will be moved towards the river and one way service roads will be built on each side of the turnpike with multiple turnarounds under the turnpike including a "Texas" turnaround at Elm. This will remove one of the three stoplights on Elm at the Turnpike and keep traffic from backing up onto the highway at rush hour.



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AquaMan on November 30, 2015, 09:51:42 am
Like the interchange and one way roads at Peoria and I-44? Those turnarounds work really well and keep traffic at the intersection flowing. QT kind of makes it tricky but still, pretty well designed.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on November 30, 2015, 10:29:02 am
Like the interchange and one way roads at Peoria and I-44? Those turnarounds work really well and keep traffic at the intersection flowing. QT kind of makes it tricky but still, pretty well designed.

Just like that one, except in Jenks the Quik Trip is on the other side of the street. Is it strange that this intersection is 101st and Peoria, just five miles from I-44 and Peoria. It seems much further.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Tulsasaurus Rex on November 30, 2015, 11:44:22 am
This may have already been mentioned, but the Horizon project in East Tulsa is coming along, too

http://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/proposed-east-tulsa-outlet-mall-passing-final-hurdles-development-group-targets-2017-opening


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Breadburner on November 30, 2015, 01:59:24 pm
This may have already been mentioned, but the Horizon project in East Tulsa is coming along, too

http://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/proposed-east-tulsa-outlet-mall-passing-final-hurdles-development-group-targets-2017-opening


Little Mexico.....


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 30, 2015, 02:45:37 pm
Little Mexico.....


Not little...big.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Hoss on November 30, 2015, 03:37:22 pm

Not little...big.


None of you obviously live over here.  That part of East Tulsa is mostly industrial.  Wow.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on November 30, 2015, 03:41:03 pm
None of you obviously live over here.  That part of East Tulsa is mostly industrial.  Wow.

Anyway, I heard at one time that east Tulsa had more immigrants from Central and South America and the Admiral and Lewis area was our "little Mexico" area. Or do I have that backwards?



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cannon_fodder on November 30, 2015, 03:43:10 pm
That area is almost sparely developed and large parts are warehousing/light industrial.

The Census says the two tracts that are nearest the proposed site are less than 1/5th Latino/Hispanic (http://www.census.gov/2010census/popmap/).  When I was in Mexico, it was almost 100% Mexican.

Also worth noting that the outlet mall doesn't care if the neighbors are rich or poor... they rely on transient shoppers. They fancy themselves as a destination.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on November 30, 2015, 03:59:29 pm

Not little...big.


It sounds like you haven't been to Mexico. It is a massive place. Furthermore, calling East Tulsa that is viewed as a racist slur.

East Tulsa is another American melting pot. Hopefully it will follow the path of other concentrated immigrant communities (e.g. Italian, Irish, Japanese etc) and stabilize and find success. Perhaps this outlet mall is part of that.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 01, 2015, 03:17:15 pm
None of you obviously live over here.  That part of East Tulsa is mostly industrial.  Wow.


Not in the industrial area... Ok, ya got me!  I wasn't thinking that was the American Cold Storage area, I had it in mind that it was south of Flying J, back west one mile and south.  The description 'threw' me a little...


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 01, 2015, 03:23:40 pm
It sounds like you haven't been to Mexico. It is a massive place. Furthermore, calling East Tulsa that is viewed as a racist slur.

East Tulsa is another American melting pot. Hopefully it will follow the path of other concentrated immigrant communities (e.g. Italian, Irish, Japanese etc) and stabilize and find success. Perhaps this outlet mall is part of that.


Don't know if it would be viewed as racist or not...will have to ask my son-in-law, and his brothers/sisters if they think I am racist, since they are all Mexican and should know.  As for the ex-in-laws from the daughters other side of family, well I just don't know what kind of influence the mother would have on them, so we won't even check in there...

As for "stabilizing" - well the corner of 21st and Garnett is pretty well stabilized and is economically active and I would say vibrant!  Busy as can be place every time I go there.

The video in that news link is showing the view north to the interstate and beyond that the Flyin' Fishhook.  I am betting they took the pic from the McDonald's parking lot.

Oh...and there it is!!  McDonald's!!




Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on December 02, 2015, 10:55:42 am

Don't know if it would be viewed as racist or not...will have to ask my son-in-law, and his brothers/sisters if they think I am racist, since they are all Mexican and should know. 


No one accused you of being racists. I said that term Breadburnes used can be taken as a racial slur (typically used as a way to disrespect the area). Besides, that is a ridiculous argument. Having Mexican relatives does not exclude someone from being racist.

Regardless, the location of this outlet shouldn't be an issue any more than the Cherokee Casino location. In fact it might benefit from the traffic going that way and relative proximity.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on December 02, 2015, 11:59:46 am
No one accused you of being racists. I said that term Breadburnes used can be taken as a racial slur (typically used as a way to disrespect the area). Besides, that is a ridiculous argument. Having Mexican relatives does not exclude someone from being racist.

Regardless, the location of this outlet shouldn't be an issue any more than the Cherokee Casino location. In fact it might benefit from the traffic going that way and relative proximity.

Speaking of the casino, there’s been no more word about the Cherokees own outlet mall.  It was supposed to break ground last April, but nothing has materialized.  There’s little doubt this would better add to a destination with hotel space and a casino in proximity to this.  There’s also a fair amount of undeveloped land in the area which could be ripe for good residential development.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on February 18, 2016, 10:00:28 am
And the land is finally safe:

http://m.newson6.com/story.aspx?story=31249261&catId=112042

Quote
A 60-acre tract of land once destined to become home to an outlet mall has been purchased by the George Kaiser Family Foundation with the intent of making it part of the River Parks Turkey Mountain Urban Wilderness area.

7/20/2015 Related Story: Plan For Proposed Outlet Mall Near Turkey Mountain Pulled

News On 6 partner, The Frontier, reports the foundation paid $2.95 million for the property, land records show. The property — which includes a 55-acre tract and a five-acre tract — had been owned by the Robert E. and Dorothy S. Grant Family Trust and Beeline Sixty-One Properties, LLC.

The River Parks Authority’s board of directors in December approved the receipt of a $5.6 million loan from the Kaiser Foundation and QuikTrip Corp. to purchase property to expand the Turkey Mountain footprint.

The agreement calls for River Parks to use funding from the Vision 2025 renewal package to repay the loan. The Vision renewal package, which goes to voters April 5, includes $5.6 million for River Parks to use for land acquisition.

GKFF served as an intermediary in the deal, purchasing the land to hold it until River Parks can use Vision funds to buy it the land from the foundation.

The sale marks the end of a contentious battle between opponents of the proposed outlet mall and those who argued the mall would deliver millions of dollars in needed sales tax revenue to the city every year.

News On 6 partner, The Frontier, has a more in depth look at this story, you can read it here.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: swake on March 21, 2016, 08:12:57 am
The Simon outlet mall goes to the Jenks City Council tonight for approval of $24 million in TIF funding.

Looks like it's getting close.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Hoss on March 29, 2016, 01:09:39 pm
And now Horizon has decided to not build the mall in East Tulsa.

http://www.newson6.com/story/31591716/east-tulsa-outlet-mall-development-canceled


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on March 29, 2016, 01:20:47 pm
And now Horizon has decided to not build the mall in East Tulsa.

http://www.newson6.com/story/31591716/east-tulsa-outlet-mall-development-canceled

The city could have stepped up and backed this a long time ago, but dithered hoping to lure Simon.  Sorry, no tears here.

That said, Simon pulled the same thing on Horizon in Omaha, then never built it.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Hoss on March 29, 2016, 01:39:12 pm
The city could have stepped up and backed this a long time ago, but dithered hoping to lure Simon.  Sorry, no tears here.

That said, Simon pulled the same thing on Horizon in Omaha, then never built it.

Yeah, I'm not all busted up over it anyway.  I'm guessing the Tribe's new mall will fill that void.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: PonderInc on March 29, 2016, 02:43:41 pm
Well, at least no one can blame the NIMBYs for this one.  Not sure how many outlet malls the region can support.  Apparently fewer than 3.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on May 17, 2016, 09:00:22 am
I’m posting under this thread since there will be great focus on this parcel now that it is officially in the TMUWA land inventory.

Turkey Mountain clean up day is this Saturday May 21 at 9:30am.  There will be heavy focus on the former Simon site as it turned into a dumping ground after Simon had boulders moved for core sample work and they were never put back in their place.  RPA has installed post and cable fencing along 61st St. to keep dumpers out as well as four wheelers.  They will have two roll-off dumpsters to collect all the debris.

Sign in for volunteers will be in the main pavilion in the lower parking lot prior to 9:30.  Please bring water bottles, sunscreen, work gloves, and hoes, shovels, etc. if you want to work with one of the trail re-hab crews.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Townsend on February 27, 2017, 12:28:36 pm
Yeah...this is no surprise...

Outlet malls sites sit stagnant; when will the 2 Tulsa-area shopping centers open?

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/prospects-for-tulsa-area-outlet-malls-appear-to-be-stalled/article_8d2cfcad-a4eb-5049-b39f-6b426956e435.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/prospects-for-tulsa-area-outlet-malls-appear-to-be-stalled/article_8d2cfcad-a4eb-5049-b39f-6b426956e435.html)

Quote
One Tulsa-area outlet mall was supposed to open in late 2016, while another was targeting its debut for this coming summer. Both appear to be in a holding pattern. The earliest either one could arrive is 2018.

Maybe.

At one point in late 2015, three outlet malls were proposed for the area. All appeared to be on parallel tracks, battling for tenants in what industry experts called a “site fight.”

One developer, which had plans for an east Tulsa site, bowed out in early spring 2016 and left two contenders for a market that experts believed could handle only one outlet mall.

Those two remaining suitors — the Cherokee Outlets in Catoosa and Tulsa Premium Outlets in Jenks — are likely not going to open in 2017 despite previous timelines given by their developers.

Neither has announced any tenants.

Simon Property Group, through a spokeswoman, declined repeated requests from the World to update the timeline for its proposed project, planned just off the Creek Turnpike across from the Oklahoma Aquarium. However, a presentation found on a Simon website said the outlet mall plans to open in June 2018.

The presentation said it will feature about 80 retailers housed in about 325,000 square feet.

When the Jenks City Council rezoned the land the mall is planned for, Simon said it would break ground in 2016 and open in the summer of 2017. The groundbreaking didn’t happen.

Simon hasn’t bought the land yet, Tulsa County property records show. A representative for the limited liability company that owns the property declined to comment.

Work to expand the Creek Turnpike interchange at Elm Street in Jenks continues in anticipation of the expected increase in traffic from the project.

Jenks Mayor Kelly Dunkerley said in a statement, “The expansion and improvement to our traffic interchanges at the Creek Turnpike and Jenks intersections, needed so the city may keep pace with our growing community, but also in anticipation of the construction of a Simon Premium Outlet, are nearly complete and will soon open.”

He offered little regarding the project, saying “We expect this project, like all of our other hallmark developments, to bolster our existing businesses and to bring even more energy to our town.”
The Cherokee Nation described the state of its outlet mall as in a holding pattern.

Cherokee Nation Businesses spokeswoman Amanda Clinton said the Woodmont Cos., which is partnering with the Cherokees on the site, is still looking for retailers, and once it hits a certain point in having the space leased, construction would begin.

Tulsa-area residents have been waiting for an outlet mall for more than three years.

Plans for outlet malls began to come to public light in 2013 and 2014 as the city of Tulsa tried to lure two different developers to sites on the city’s eastern and western borders. Simon originally planned to build near the Turkey Mountain Urban Wilderness Area. The Cherokees announced plans for their outlets in late 2014.

Developers, and retailers, are typically loathe to discuss the economy and what it means for their business dealings. However, the state of the Oklahoma economy has changed since three outlet malls were planned for the Tulsa metro.

The Simon presentation notes the strength of the Tulsa economy — in 2014. It highlights the metro area’s 4 percent unemployment rate at the end of that year and calls Tulsa “one of the strongest economies in the country.” Things have changed quite a bit since then. The December 2016 Tulsa metro-area unemployment rate was 4.8 percent, but reached heights of 5.6 percent in September.

When three outlet malls were planned in Tulsa, the area’s energy-dependent economy was booming on high oil prices. Prices recovered from their 2015 free-fall in 2016, but are nowhere near the heights seen throughout the early part of the decade.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: shavethewhales on June 11, 2017, 06:46:07 pm
Still no whispers about this? Seems to early to stick a fork in it just yet, but if there is no movement by the end of the year I'm calling it.

Here's the last couple mentions I can find from the end of last month:
http://www.fox23.com/news/jenks-residents-wonder-when-promised-outlet-mall-will-open/525783611
http://ktul.com/news/local/jenks-listed-as-fastest-growing-city-in-oklahoma-leaders-say-it-complements-tulsa

So they say they are still "committed", meanwhile the retail apocalypse is still ramping up with no end in sight and Simon is selling off malls and properties such as the mall up in Bartlesville. Maybe they will refocus on these outlet malls after they sell off a few things? Outlet malls still seem to do well in certain spots...


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on June 12, 2017, 12:31:34 pm
Still no whispers about this? Seems to early to stick a fork in it just yet, but if there is no movement by the end of the year I'm calling it.

Here's the last couple mentions I can find from the end of last month:
http://www.fox23.com/news/jenks-residents-wonder-when-promised-outlet-mall-will-open/525783611
http://ktul.com/news/local/jenks-listed-as-fastest-growing-city-in-oklahoma-leaders-say-it-complements-tulsa

So they say they are still "committed", meanwhile the retail apocalypse is still ramping up with no end in sight and Simon is selling off malls and properties such as the mall up in Bartlesville. Maybe they will refocus on these outlet malls after they sell off a few things? Outlet malls still seem to do well in certain spots...

It seems like they need to adjust their strategy for this. A huge outlet mall seems foolish if their tenants are closing down at such a rapid rate around the country.

I don't understand why they can't convert Promenade into an Outlet mall (or other newer strip that is mostly vacant such as recently discussed Midtown Village off I44). It is more centrally located and might be purchased or leased at quite a discount soon if closures keep up.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: sgrizzle on June 12, 2017, 06:42:12 pm
It seems like they need to adjust their strategy for this. A huge outlet mall seems foolish if their tenants are closing down at such a rapid rate around the country.

I don't understand why they can't convert Promenade into an Outlet mall (or other newer strip that is mostly vacant such as recently discussed Midtown Village off I44). It is more centrally located and might be purchased or leased at quite a discount soon if closures keep up.

Outlet malls today are going outdoor. They could remodel promenade they wanted.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Oil Capital on June 13, 2017, 10:26:14 am
Outlet malls today are going outdoor. They could remodel promenade they wanted.

That would be pretty funny.  We would then have at 41st and Yale:

The former Southroads; originally an indoor mall converted to an outdoor strip center.

The former Promenade, nee Southland, originally an outdoor shopping center converted to an indoor mall converted to an outdoor outlet mall.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 13, 2017, 12:59:29 pm
The former Promenade, nee Southland, originally an outdoor shopping center converted to an indoor mall converted to an outdoor outlet mall.

Full credit for proper use of nee.  8)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: DTowner on June 14, 2017, 08:19:43 am
I don't understand why they can't convert Promenade into an Outlet mall (or other newer strip that is mostly vacant such as recently discussed Midtown Village off I44). It is more centrally located and might be purchased or leased at quite a discount soon if closures keep up.

That is a great idea, but it would be more plausible if Simon owned Promenade.

As for indoor/outdoor, Simon built/owns Opry Mills outlet mall in Nashville, which is an indoor mall.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: DowntownDan on June 14, 2017, 08:41:05 am
With the retailocolypse going on, it's insane to me to build any type of mall, including an outlet mall, from the ground up at this time.  There will be plenty of existing retail facilities (as mentioned, Promenade, Midtown Village, etc.) available for this type of development.  Building a new mall from the ground up, even if successful for some years, will just cause more closings in other parts of town, resulting in a net negative.  It's pure insanity.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on June 14, 2017, 10:22:03 am
With the retailocolypse going on, it's insane to me to build any type of mall, including an outlet mall, from the ground up at this time.  There will be plenty of existing retail facilities (as mentioned, Promenade, Midtown Village, etc.) available for this type of development.  Building a new mall from the ground up, even if successful for some years, will just cause more closings in other parts of town, resulting in a net negative.  It's pure insanity.

My suspicion all-along with Simon not actually intending to build here hinged on two things:

Simon fought the TIF district for Tulsa Hills saying it was unfair competition for Woodland Hills Mall.  Never mind that Tulsa Hills was a big box power center with retailers whose business model is big box and not mall-oriented.  Ashley, Lowe’s, Dick’s, Best Buy, etc. are not any real sort of competition for Woodland Hills tenants at least not on a store brand by store brand basis.   Then Simon proposed to build an outlet mall one mile north of the Tulsa Hills development with retailers more directly competing with Woodland Hills Mall tenants.  As an aside, they picked not only a controversial place to develop their outlet mall but one which presented many serious site prep challenges and had really terrible highway access.

I personally think the Turkey Mountain site was picked on purpose because the longer they could tie up the TMAPC and Tulsa City Council on an unpopular and possibly impossible to develop proposal, that meant a major distraction from the previously announced Horizon outlet mall in east Tulsa.  I think that ran its course much quicker than Simon anticipated so they had no choice but to find another site (Jenks) to hold until Horizon gave up and went away.

Woodland Hills is one of Simon’s better performing mall properties, why would they seek to dilute that in a market with very minimal population growth?  In a discussion I had with one of the Tulsa City Councilors, he said they were calculating there would be about a 50% scavenge rate off existing retail business for the outlet mall as proposed at 61st & Highway 75.  Let’s assume a fair amount of that 50% would come from Woodland.  I always felt the stated scavenge rate was a bit low, from my research 60% would have been more realistic.  Are people even still really piling in their car to go outlet mall shopping one to two hours away these days instead of taking the convenience factor of online shopping?

If Woodland Hills is worth millions per year to the Simon portfolio, I don’t think it is too far fetched for them to spend $500,000 to $1 million  to ward off potential competitors.

As an interesting historical aside, I was told once by a previous owner of the proposed Horizon outlet site, it was used as a decoy of sorts by the original developers of Woodland Hills to discourage work from resuming on Eastland Mall in the mid-1970’s due to its close proximity to Eastland.  In the meantime, (I think it was Dayton-Hudson) bought the land on the NE corner of 71st & Memorial and the rest is history.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Townsend on June 14, 2017, 11:20:12 am
Full credit for proper use of nee.  8)


(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-2qME1-9hY2Y/V50IxjIUJcI/AAAAAAABzQI/x0EzDRh2WZEfI3erhRhJsU6aH-SKWETBgCLcB/s1600/Originalni.jpg)


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on June 14, 2017, 12:06:37 pm
My suspicion all-along with Simon not actually intending to build here hinged on two things:

Simon fought the TIF district for Tulsa Hills saying it was unfair competition for Woodland Hills Mall.  Never mind that Tulsa Hills was a big box power center with retailers whose business model is big box and not mall-oriented.  Ashley, Lowe’s, Dick’s, Best Buy, etc. are not any real sort of competition for Woodland Hills tenants at least not on a store brand by store brand basis.   Then Simon proposed to build an outlet mall one mile north of the Tulsa Hills development with retailers more directly competing with Woodland Hills Mall tenants.  As an aside, they picked not only a controversial place to develop their outlet mall but one which presented many serious site prep challenges and had really terrible highway access.

I personally think the Turkey Mountain site was picked on purpose because the longer they could tie up the TMAPC and Tulsa City Council on an unpopular and possibly impossible to develop proposal, that meant a major distraction from the previously announced Horizon outlet mall in east Tulsa.  I think that ran its course much quicker than Simon anticipated so they had no choice but to find another site (Jenks) to hold until Horizon gave up and went away.

Woodland Hills is one of Simon’s better performing mall properties, why would they seek to dilute that in a market with very minimal population growth?  In a discussion I had with one of the Tulsa City Councilors, he said they were calculating there would be about a 50% scavenge rate off existing retail business for the outlet mall as proposed at 61st & Highway 75.  Let’s assume a fair amount of that 50% would come from Woodland.  I always felt the stated scavenge rate was a bit low, from my research 60% would have been more realistic.  Are people even still really piling in their car to go outlet mall shopping one to two hours away these days instead of taking the convenience factor of online shopping?

If Woodland Hills is worth millions per year to the Simon portfolio, I don’t think it is too far fetched for them to spend $500,000 to $1 million  to ward off potential competitors.

As an interesting historical aside, I was told once by a previous owner of the proposed Horizon outlet site, it was used as a decoy of sorts by the original developers of Woodland Hills to discourage work from resuming on Eastland Mall in the mid-1970’s due to its close proximity to Eastland.  In the meantime, (I think it was Dayton-Hudson) bought the land on the NE corner of 71st & Memorial and the rest is history.

That is quite an accusation. Expensive and shady. Could that kind of thing be illegal if proven or do the "official" plans keep them safe from any sort of risk of legal repercussions? Does seem common for big companies to do things like that to stifle competition.

In this case, maybe something good will come of it if we get no outlet malls. There are so many reasons they should not build any outlet malls (environment, online retail, vacant retail, sprawl), but ultimately they will do it if they believe they can make profit.

There's a definitely a market of customers who would rather walk around a fancy new place in the suburbs which entices you to spend rather than shop in an "old" place like the Promenade in "crowded" midtown.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Conan71 on June 14, 2017, 01:30:20 pm
That is quite an accusation. Expensive and shady. Could that kind of thing be illegal if proven or do the "official" plans keep them safe from any sort of risk of legal repercussions? Does seem common for big companies to do things like that to stifle competition.

In this case, maybe something good will come of it if we get no outlet malls. There are so many reasons they should not build any outlet malls (environment, online retail, vacant retail, sprawl), but ultimately they will do it if they believe they can make profit.

There's a definitely a market of customers who would rather walk around a fancy new place in the suburbs which entices you to spend rather than shop in an "old" place like the Promenade in "crowded" midtown.

You may or may not be aware, but I was in the middle of the public policy end of Simon trying to build on the property adjacent to TMUWA.  I did a good deal of research on business practices within the industry, I also met with Simon representatives on multiple occasions.  Meetings with them never specifically led me to that conclusion but others I met with in the industry did help form some of my conclusions with reasonable assurance.

Simon pulled a similar stunt on Horizon in Omaha.  Horizon announced they were bringing an outlet mall to Omaha on the heels of a successful development on I-40 in western OKC.  Simon made a later announcement and Horizon dropped out. It was reputed that David Simon swore no other development/management company would ever build an outlet mall in a market where Simon already had other business with traditional or outlet malls after Horizon built the outlet mall in OKC.  

Simon holds most of the cards so they have the stroke with their retailers to say: “If you want in on our Denver, Tampa, and Anaheim projects, you must sign with us in Tulsa and Omaha.”  

They’ve also managed to force end up in joint ventures with Taubman and Tanger in other markets where those developers announced malls.  I did specifically ask a rep from Simon why they wouldn’t partner up with the developer on the proposed outlet on Cherokee Nation land in Catoosa and I was told they didn’t feel that company was pulling their weight on another joint development elsewhere (St. Louis I believe).  That also led me to believe they really didn’t want any part in diluting the Tulsa market from Woodland Hills more than anything else.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 14, 2017, 03:02:24 pm

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-2qME1-9hY2Y/V50IxjIUJcI/AAAAAAABzQI/x0EzDRh2WZEfI3erhRhJsU6aH-SKWETBgCLcB/s1600/Originalni.jpg)





That was "Ni"...


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: Townsend on June 15, 2017, 11:52:28 am



That was "Ni"...


Go get yourself a shrubbery


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 16, 2017, 07:58:20 am
Go get yourself a shrubbery



I have a shrubbery!!   Several of them...



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: cannon_fodder on September 15, 2017, 08:38:12 am
Surprise!

Quote
When the Jenks City Council rezoned the land, Simon said it would break ground in 2016 and open in the summer of 2017. The groundbreaking didn’t happen. Assessor records, which can be several months behind, show the land has not changed hands yet.

A representative from Simon couldn’t immediately be reached, but an online company brochure indicates the mall is scheduled to open in 2019.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/retail-market-chilling-outlet-mall-proposals-for-tulsa-area-developer/article_9f357c4c-7c0c-5901-9cfb-7c82e957a802.html



Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: AngieB on September 15, 2017, 09:01:49 am
Surprise!
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/retail-market-chilling-outlet-mall-proposals-for-tulsa-area-developer/article_9f357c4c-7c0c-5901-9cfb-7c82e957a802.html



2019? Last time I looked at the Simon website (just a month or so ago) it said 2018. This mall will never happen and Tulsa dodged a huge bullet.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on September 15, 2017, 02:34:36 pm
2019? Last time I looked at the Simon website (just a month or so ago) it said 2018. This mall will never happen and Tulsa dodged a huge bullet.

That looks to be the case right now. It is amazing the power of a huge company like Simon to do all this without ever buying any land or having to move any dirt, if this was all really orchestrated like Conan said.

I remember Jenks people being so proud and acting like Tulsa really missed out, not letting them build on Turket Mountain, saying we were getting in the way of progress.. ::)

Even if it does get built, the delay is ridiculous, but the monumental shift in retail is real and this seems like a waste of resources considering that.


Title: Re: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75
Post by: SXSW on September 17, 2017, 05:44:37 pm
That looks to be the case right now. It is amazing the power of a huge company like Simon to do all this without ever buying any land or having to move any dirt, if this was all really orchestrated like Conan said.

I remember Jenks people being so proud and acting like Tulsa really missed out, not letting them build on Turket Mountain, saying we were getting in the way of progress.. ::)

Even if it does get built, the delay is ridiculous, but the monumental shift in retail is real and this seems like a waste of resources considering that.

The River District where this is planned has the potential to be a much better development, and when first proposed included more high end retail and residential and interacted with the river.  With the dam being built next to this it will have frontage along the new lake.  I know it's Jenks but something like Harbor Town in Memphis would be a unique waterfront development here..

(http://www.riverinnmemphis.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/harbor-town-pictures-067-custom.jpg)

(http://hbginc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/HarbortownSquare.jpg)