News Helicoptors crash into each other in Phoenix

[patric]

Tulsa already averages about a chase a day, but in some cities high-speed pursuits are so common that its just like watching an air show or NASCAR.

Remember reading about the carnival atmospheres at public executions when we had them?  You can see where any value as deterrence is lost to the value of the entertainment.

Of course, I can recall the promise made that if Tulsa would just buy a police helicopter, that would be the end of high-speed chases.  Anyone else remember that?

Side note...
The reporter in this video is former Tulsan Bruce Dunbar, who worked at KJRH in the eighties.  A little grayer these days.
http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=3901134&version=21&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1

[dbacks fan]

quote:Originally posted by patric

Tulsa already averages about a chase a day, but in some cities high-speed pursuits are so common that its just like watching an air show or NASCAR.

Remember reading about the carnival atmospheres at public executions when we had them?  You can see where any value as deterrence is lost to the value of the entertainment.

Of course, I can recall the promise made that if Tulsa would just buy a police helicopter, that would be the end of high-speed chases.  Anyone else remember that?

Side note...
The reporter in this video is former Tulsan Bruce Dunbar, who worked at KJRH in the eighties.  A little grayer these days.
http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=3901134&version=21&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1

I have on a video tape when Brce Dunbar was the anchor at KJRH (before that KTEW) during the flooding in 1986. If I remember correctly the co-anchor then was Beth Rengal from channel 8. I will have to watch it again to see.

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by DM

those people driving the car could be charged with their deaths?? I did not quite get that. Dont they assume the risks when covering the story?

that would be utter bull****.  thats like saying if someone was killed rubbernecking at the car wreck you are in, you are responsible for that.  the 'law' has gotten way out of hand these days.

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by inteller

that would be utter bull****.  thats like saying if someone was killed rubbernecking at the car wreck you are in, you are responsible for that.  the 'law' has gotten way out of hand these days.

I would have to agree, those laws are abused to the point of absurdity.  If you're flying a  'copter near hazards or racing through intersections at 60 you are the one making the decisions -- peddling the consequences off on someone else when you make the wrong decisions lacks responsibility.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=528003

I doubt the news agencies that lost colleagues are the ones pushing to charge a truck driver on the ground with a mid-air collision.

[azbadpuppy]

What really angers me about this is that the Phoenix police put so many people's lives in jeopardy by engaging in this type of high speed chase. The suspect car-jacked a car and was on parole- thats about all the info I could find. Big deal. What was he on parole for? I will bet it was for something like drug charges. How ridiculous and ego-centric of the Phoenix police to put their desire to capture this guy before the safety of the citizens of Phoenix. I blame the Phoenix police department and Sheriff Joe for this accident, both of which have a very long history of violent, and sometimes criminal style of law enforcement.

BTW, I was standing in front of my business when the helicoptors collided about a block north of us. We heard the impact and then saw a tail go flying off. This high speed chase was conducted through one of the densest corridors in Phoenix, midday, with thousands of people in the 'line of fire' in office towers, on downtown streets, in their cars etc. Absolutely unacceptable.

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by azbadpuppy

What really angers me about this is that the Phoenix police put so many people's lives in jeopardy by engaging in this type of high speed chase. The suspect car-jacked a car and was on parole- thats about all the info I could find. Big deal. What was he on parole for? I will bet it was for something like drug charges. How ridiculous and ego-centric of the Phoenix police to put their desire to capture this guy before the safety of the citizens of Phoenix. I blame the Phoenix police department and Sheriff Joe for this accident, both of which have a very long history of violent, and sometimes criminal style of law enforcement.

BTW, I was standing in front of my business when the helicoptors collided about a block north of us. We heard the impact and then saw a tail go flying off. This high speed chase was conducted through one of the densest corridors in Phoenix, midday, with thousands of people in the 'line of fire' in office towers, on downtown streets, in their cars etc. Absolutely unacceptable.

The suspect is to be blamed for running from the police.  His actions are to blame for this. If he would have pulled over and stopped none of this would have happened. High speed chases are dangerous but are necessary.  If they were not allowed then criminals would just flee and continue on their crime spree.  

The most recent example of this is the Illinois State Trooper that was killed because an earlier pursuit was cancelled. Troopers had to stop a pursuit because of their policy to only pursue suspects if they believe someone is in danger or when a violent crime has occurred.
 
After the suspects in the car got away, they went on a crime spree, killed a State Trooper and held people hostage at a bank until they were finally captured.

All of that could have been avoided if the suspects would have pulled over or since they didn't, the pursuit was allowed to continue and the suspects were caught.  Now troopers have to live with the reality that as a result of their own policy, a trooper will never go home to his family.

[YoungTulsan]

I think the main point of most TV stations having helicopters is so they can get to a news scene quicker.  Channel 8 could fly to Claremore in like 15 minutes, where it would take almost an hour to make the haul from West Tulsa by vehicle.

I havent really seen the local stations do any of the stupid car chase type stories.  I dont know if they would if they could (as dramatic chases don't unfold on Tulsa streets too often) but that doesn't seem to be their reason for having copters.  They mainly just do shots of locations, brag about "having a helicopter", and occasionally get on the scene of stuff exploding.

[azbadpuppy]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

quote:Originally posted by azbadpuppy

What really angers me about this is that the Phoenix police put so many people's lives in jeopardy by engaging in this type of high speed chase. The suspect car-jacked a car and was on parole- thats about all the info I could find. Big deal. What was he on parole for? I will bet it was for something like drug charges. How ridiculous and ego-centric of the Phoenix police to put their desire to capture this guy before the safety of the citizens of Phoenix. I blame the Phoenix police department and Sheriff Joe for this accident, both of which have a very long history of violent, and sometimes criminal style of law enforcement.

BTW, I was standing in front of my business when the helicoptors collided about a block north of us. We heard the impact and then saw a tail go flying off. This high speed chase was conducted through one of the densest corridors in Phoenix, midday, with thousands of people in the 'line of fire' in office towers, on downtown streets, in their cars etc. Absolutely unacceptable.

The suspect is to be blamed for running from the police.  His actions are to blame for this. If he would have pulled over and stopped none of this would have happened. High speed chases are dangerous but are necessary.  If they were not allowed then criminals would just flee and continue on their crime spree.  

The most recent example of this is the Illinois State Trooper that was killed because an earlier pursuit was cancelled. Troopers had to stop a pursuit because of their policy to only pursue suspects if they believe someone is in danger or when a violent crime has occurred.
 
After the suspects in the car got away, they went on a crime spree, killed a State Trooper and held people hostage at a bank until they were finally captured.

All of that could have been avoided if the suspects would have pulled over or since they didn't, the pursuit was allowed to continue and the suspects were caught.  Now troopers have to live with the reality that as a result of their own policy, a trooper will never go home to his family.

It is human nature for people to run from what they percieve is a threat to them. Doesn't mean you have to chase them. There are other ways for them to be caught- any they will be caught eventually. It is unfortunate that a trooper was killed, however it was in his line of duty and being a police officer is a dangerous profession. How many other lives have been taken by dangerous high speed, and IMO unnecessary chases?  Too many.

[RecycleMichael]

Conducting high speed pursuits is an interesting argument. I find points with each side that I can agree with. But that is a little different than what I wanted to talk about in this thread.

Helicopters can obviously respond to a news scene faster, especially to distant communities. I have to be realistic and understand that the television news media is very competitive and first is one of the most important trophies.

But following a crime in progress in a parade of helicopters has got to be a bad idea. The driver of the car being pursued, the police cars in pursuit, and most importantly, how the pursuit comes to an end were probably all influenced by such a spectacle.

I am sure there are many more times when the media helps the police officers do their job by using their spotlight for assistance. It just seems to me that the helicopters on this pursuit, in this town, on that day, were in the way.

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

quote:Originally posted by azbadpuppy

What really angers me about this is that the Phoenix police put so many people's lives in jeopardy by engaging in this type of high speed chase. The suspect car-jacked a car and was on parole- thats about all the info I could find. Big deal. What was he on parole for? I will bet it was for something like drug charges. How ridiculous and ego-centric of the Phoenix police to put their desire to capture this guy before the safety of the citizens of Phoenix. I blame the Phoenix police department and Sheriff Joe for this accident, both of which have a very long history of violent, and sometimes criminal style of law enforcement.

BTW, I was standing in front of my business when the helicoptors collided about a block north of us. We heard the impact and then saw a tail go flying off. This high speed chase was conducted through one of the densest corridors in Phoenix, midday, with thousands of people in the 'line of fire' in office towers, on downtown streets, in their cars etc. Absolutely unacceptable.

The suspect is to be blamed for running from the police.  His actions are to blame for this. If he would have pulled over and stopped none of this would have happened. High speed chases are dangerous but are necessary.  If they were not allowed then criminals would just flee and continue on their crime spree.  

The most recent example of this is the Illinois State Trooper that was killed because an earlier pursuit was cancelled. Troopers had to stop a pursuit because of their policy to only pursue suspects if they believe someone is in danger or when a violent crime has occurred.
 
After the suspects in the car got away, they went on a crime spree, killed a State Trooper and held people hostage at a bank until they were finally captured.

All of that could have been avoided if the suspects would have pulled over or since they didn't, the pursuit was allowed to continue and the suspects were caught.  Now troopers have to live with the reality that as a result of their own policy, a trooper will never go home to his family.

hindsight is 20/20 (or maybe 20/10 in your case)  they made the right decision at the moment....they couldn't predict the future.  Spiderman let the crook go that killed Uncle Ben...blah blah blah.


high speed pursuits are crap.  they should be stopped.

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

High speed chases are dangerous but are necessary.  If they were not allowed then criminals would just flee and continue on their crime spree.  
The most recent example of this is the Illinois State Trooper that was killed because an earlier pursuit was cancelled. Troopers had to stop a pursuit because of their policy to only pursue suspects if they believe someone is in danger or when a violent crime has occurred.

Since you're going to cite that report, heres something you left out:


"In 1995 and 1996, almost 800 people died during police chases across the country, according to the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration. More than 30 percent of those killed were bystanders.

Some law enforcement agencies responded by tightening pursuit policies, and chase-related deaths fell to about 300 a year from 1997 to 1999."

http://www.tulsaworld.com/common/printerfriendlystory.aspx?articleID=070728_1_A6_hTwom32887


That's hundreds who are still alive because police in those communities realize not all chases are necessary.

We may never know how may lives are "saved" by the bloody pursuits of people with tinted windows or outstanding traffic fines, but the loss of the one state trooper, while tragic, is a gross exception to a policy that is saving hundreds of lives elsewhere.

[inteller]

PWn3d!

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by patric

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

High speed chases are dangerous but are necessary.  If they were not allowed then criminals would just flee and continue on their crime spree.  
The most recent example of this is the Illinois State Trooper that was killed because an earlier pursuit was cancelled. Troopers had to stop a pursuit because of their policy to only pursue suspects if they believe someone is in danger or when a violent crime has occurred.

Since you're going to cite that report, heres something you left out:


"In 1995 and 1996, almost 800 people died during police chases across the country, according to the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration. More than 30 percent of those killed were bystanders.

Some law enforcement agencies responded by tightening pursuit policies, and chase-related deaths fell to about 300 a year from 1997 to 1999."

http://www.tulsaworld.com/common/printerfriendlystory.aspx?articleID=070728_1_A6_hTwom32887


That's hundreds who are still alive because police in those communities realize not all chases are necessary.

We may never know how may lives are "saved" by the bloody pursuits of people with tinted windows or outstanding traffic fines, but the loss of the one state trooper, while tragic, is a gross exception to a policy that is saving hundreds of lives elsewhere.

Sounds like a plan to me.  What was I thinking!  It was foolish of me to think that the police should chase criminals.  Risking my life, driving at high rates of speed, trying to protect the citizens of Tulsa.  Even though the supreme court ruled that they are justified, that doesn't mean anything in Tulsa.  We'll just stop it all.  I agree. I will start talking to my chain of command about changing your policy. I don't want to chase criminals anymore. In fact, let's expand it. Drunk driver's who are to drunk to notice us,  no need to chase them.  We'll let them go.  We can't stop them.  Active shooters in schools,  business or in public places, we won't respond to them.  The flying bullets could hit a innocent citizen or student.  We'll just wait until the shooting is over to respond. More deaths could happen if we responded.  We'll just wait until it's all over to respond.

Outstanding. My family will now sleep easier. Thanks!

[rwarn17588]

Apparently MH2010 missed the point.