Murder and Crime in Tulsa

[Rowdy]

It has been getting really old for the past few years reading every morning about some drive-by shooting or murder or shots fired overnight.  What do you think is our main reason for this problem?
Is it our police force or a lack of funding for them or just lack [B)]?

Has this city in some way started to attract the wrong type of people moving here? I am starting to see no difference in our city versus other major metro areas anymore. This has been discussed before but we have had some new folks join here and was wanting their input too.

[cannon_fodder]

In my most humble of opinions, there are sectors of our society that no longer harbor typical "American values."  Hard word, education and success are considered "selling out."  Petty crimes are laughed at and worse crimes are ignored.

and yes, all to often this description fits many black communities.  However, there are too many people of every race that grow up in such an environment.  No, its not just a "black problem,"  but anyone that pretends the situation doesn't seem to be the largest issue in that community is kidding themselves (see, e.g., statistics, crime reports in the paper, and pop culture).  For gods sake, when Charles Barkley can notices the problem and speaks out about a deteriorating youth environment - then you know there HAS to be a problem.

Since moving to Tulsa I have noticed myself becoming more and more racist; in that upon noticing a black man dressed professionally I take note of it (side note:  most people are racist in that they see a person and assign a stereo type.  The people that completely deny such things are usually kidding themselves.  The problem comes in when one believes the automatically assigned stereotype is true).  I'm not sure if it is because I'm just a bigger prick, or because minorities in Tulsa are less successful, or because I'm susceptible to pop cultures constant humming or what.  I know this not to be the case - my neighbors, class mates, friends and relatives that are black don't fit the mold... but its still the mold my mind tries to assign.

As for how to correct the problem as I sit on the outside, I have no idea.  As far as why violence is popping up in recent years, again, I'm afraid I don't know.  So I guess this isn't overly helpful.

Tulsa has a long history of racial tensions, and the recent violent crime seems to be heavily skewed towards the black community.  I assume everyone was going to try and ignore this angle because it isn't politically correct, but now its on the table.  I hope I'm wrong (as I so often am in such issues) and that it really is the police's (polices?) fault, that this violence isnt assigned to the black community on the North Side, and that there is an easy way to quell it.

[Conan71]

I don't know if you meant skewed towards or skewed within the black community.  

Comparatively, in our city, it's rare that a black person kills a white person and vice versa.  It seems that it is usually contained within individual ethnic or racial groups.  I'm no expert on the matter but it seems that with most murders in the Hispanic and black communities, the murderer and victim are under 30 and almost always of the same race, so I automatically assume gang-related.  

In the white community murder seems to be the result of domestic violence (&/or drugs) or a crime of opportunity (someone surprising a burglar or an armed robbery).

MPO is get rid of gangs and the murder rate would drop by 25 to 33%.  Gangs have their own justice system, the death penalty is frequently meted out.

My prejudice only runs as deep as disliking people who are lazy and exploiting the rest of our hard work to their own benefit or who live outside the laws the rest of us observe.  I don't really pay attention to skin color.

I've always said I don't care who my daughters date so long as their companion (male or female) treats them with respect and is a productive member of society.    

My step-daughter exclusively dates black guys.  I don't have a problem with that in itself.  What I have a problem with is she keeps going for the Snoop-Dogg gangsta wannabe who is going nowhere in life.  She's been beaten up a few times by the wrong type of guy, and had things stolen by them, so if I have a prejudice, it's against "gangstas".  Through her, I've gained some insight into the scammers and lazy attitudes within certain social circles.  She's a good kid, but for some reason she doesn't seem to like the Theo Huxtable type.  

So maybe CF, I am somewhat like you.  If I see a black kid with his waistband down at his knees and a bunch of tats, I assume he's a gangsta and up to no good.

[tulsa1603]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71



So maybe CF, I am somewhat like you.  If I see a black kid with his waistband down at his knees and a bunch of tats, I assume he's a gangsta and up to no good.

Or a white kid for that matter.  Anyone that emulates "thug" behavior is rather suspect to me.  Maybe I'm getting old, but I am sick of the glorification of criminal activity.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by tulsa1603

quote:Originally posted by Conan71



So maybe CF, I am somewhat like you.  If I see a black kid with his waistband down at his knees and a bunch of tats, I assume he's a gangsta and up to no good.

Or a white kid for that matter.  Anyone that emulates "thug" behavior is rather suspect to me.  Maybe I'm getting old, but I am sick of the glorification of criminal activity.

Agreed.  

I always wonder what kind of job a kid who looks like they just took a face-plant in a tackle box will get.

[sauerkraut]

No Question about it, crime in T-Towne went thru the roof.[}:)]

[rwarn17588]

Guess what: Oklahoma is a high-crime state, and has been for a long time.

I found data from 1960 in which the crime index in Oklahoma was 2015.3, compared to a national rate of 1887.2.

So the good ol' days weren't always good.

Forty years later, Oklahoma still ranked in the top third in the country in crime index.

It's been my experience that there's pockets of the country that have higher crime rates. Southern Illinois, which is a rural region, has had crime rates higher than many major cities for decades. That region has been beset with grinding poverty and high dropout rates since, it seems, the beginning of time. Coincidence?

Oklahoma has never had a sterling record for poverty or education, either.

[jdb]

"Forty years later, Oklahoma still ranked in the top third in the country in crime index."


Some parts of the country don't bother to report a shot fired at their car, front door, or even their foot while being mugged.

Try calling 911 in LA for a punch in the face...other end sounds like comedy Centrel.
Friends come visit and were amazed at being shot at, we'd say you didn't follow our directions, did you?
They'd hang their head muttering about reportting the matter.

"Screw that, we got places to go - next time listen up."

However, people here in the midwest seem to report everything!

That, tongue in cheek notwithstanding, has to account for some of the rankings, no?

[YoungTulsan]

I'd like to see a few statistics on violent crime and murder in Tulsa.

First, how many murders are gang-on-gang related?  You obviously don't want this going on, or people dieing, but honestly the gang-on-gang killings do not effect me or really worry me.  I'm not involved.

Second, how many murders are committed by illegal aliens?  I keep hearing stories on the news about gentlemen with hispanic sounding names who were involved in shootings or murders.  The news, of course, being politcally correct, will not identify if these people were here illegally.

People who come here illegally from a place with a violent culture that has high crime - who don't assimilate with the culture of Tulsa, will be more prone to commit violent crimes than the rest of us.  They shouldn't be here, and illegal immigrant murders could be avoided and shouldnt have to be a part of Tulsa's crime statistic.  (Im not saying it shouldnt be recorded as a murder in Tulsa, Im saying it shouldnt have occurred in the first place)

[tulsa1603]

quote:Originally posted by YoungTulsan

I'd like to see a few statistics on violent crime and murder in Tulsa.

First, how many murders are gang-on-gang related?  You obviously don't want this going on, or people dieing, but honestly the gang-on-gang killings do not effect me or really worry me.  I'm not involved.

Second, how many murders are committed by illegal aliens?  I keep hearing stories on the news about gentlemen with hispanic sounding names who were involved in shootings or murders.  The news, of course, being politcally correct, will not identify if these people were here illegally.

People who come here illegally from a place with a violent culture that has high crime - who don't assimilate with the culture of Tulsa, will be more prone to commit violent crimes than the rest of us.  They shouldn't be here, and illegal immigrant murders could be avoided and shouldnt have to be a part of Tulsa's crime statistic.  (Im not saying it shouldnt be recorded as a murder in Tulsa, Im saying it shouldnt have occurred in the first place)

It would appear from a casual glance that most murders occur north of downtown...Now, how many of those are gang related, I can't say.  But I also have a hard time thinking that since I don't live there, it's not my problem....it's a bad reflection on the whole city.  Heck, just the other night, a guy shot two people at Magoo's, and the suspect with a Mexican sounding name was arrested a few hours later right here in Florence Park.  That doesn't do much to help ME sleep at night, and whether or not he is illegal means nothing to me.  A murder is a murder, and if he's living a few blocks from me, I have a problem with it.

In this survey, http://www.citymayors.com/society/uscities_safest.htmlwe rank behind even NEW ORLEANS, in number of violent crimes per capita.  This is not acceptable to me.

Look at our number of murders compared to Austin's.  Austin also has almost 300,000 more people, too.  You could chalk that up to a more highly educated, more affluent population, but even El Paso, which is full of people who "come from a place with a violent culture" has a low murder rate compared to ours.

While I don't have any answers, I don't see how you can say that if they're gang related we shouldn't worry about them since it won't affect most of us, and if they were committed by illegals, those shouldn't count against us.  The murders are happening, the people being murdered COUNT just as much as human beings as the rest of us.

 

[YoungTulsan]

What I meant basically is that I don't feel very threatened by it (the gang murders) - I didn't say the illegals don't worry me, because they are out there everywhere getting into their drunken shenanigans and capers.

[TheArtist]

I have gone round and round in my mind trying to figure out how to fix the states or the cities problems if I could pass some law or something.  

You know what I ultimately came up with?  It will take each one of us volunteering.  Teach a person to read, be a mentor, etc.  

We can have other people take care of those problems; more teachers, cops, prisons, shelters, programs, etc.  But that will cost money and taxes for its going to require a lot of those things to really change society, to change the underlying society the criminals come from not just picking off the worst leaves and hoping the roots die. Then picking off the next crop, then the next,... all the while more victims suffer with each new batch.

Ultimately I dont think we have the will in this country to make laws that will force parents to be educated and capable or to take problem children away from their parents to be brought up in a good environment.

I do think culture plays a roll.  The leadership should imo not worry about trying to limit freedoms by banning certain songs, videos, books, movies etc. For that can lead down a dangerous path.  However I would love to see our leaders talk about good things, creating a volunteer culture, really promoting getting out and helping others, being constant visible voices.  I am just old enough to have seen those old movies as a child in school that showed how to behave, gave examples of what to do and what not to do, how to be kind, have manners, exhortations to work hard, learn all you can, etc.  While most of those old movies would be seriously sexist or outdated in other ways today, many of the basic messages would still be very valuable.  It seems that once they got out dated, schools didn't make new ones, they just threw the idea out all together.

Our society has seemed to turn from pushing others to be good and moral to trying to push them to be religious.  I know many people who are religious but are horrible people and many who belong to no religion who are very good and moral.  Its like harping on fat kid, or a skinny one like I was, constantly telling him he is fat, he knows dang well he is fat and harping on him doesn't help.  The best way to go about it is to encourage the person to be healthy.  Harping on someone to belong to this or that religion and if they do not they are bad is no better.  Better to encourage a person to be a good person, then you may find that they will "find their way".

Our voices and our leaders voices should be encouraging and promoting good culture, valuing it.  When was the last time you heard the president extolling the virtues of hard work? When was the last time you saw a congressman picking up trash, building a home for the poor?  When was the last time you saw a senator helping someone learn to read or in a commercial talking about eating right, exercise, acts of kindness, valuing relationships?  These shouldn't be rare things.  If your really wanting to change whats prominent in a culture, whats being talked about and seen daily by people, you have to be doing it all the time. The airwaves and schools should be awash in expectations and examples of basic goodness. But since that is not the case, we can each at least do some small part ourselves.  The more of us that do it, the more of a difference it will make.

I know deep down that If I want to make the world a better place I need to get off my duff and volunteer and encourage others do do the same. At least when I die I will know that I did something to leave the world at least a tiny bit better place for those who live in it after me.

[cannon_fodder]

Good word Artist.

The main obstacle I see is LAZINESS. I wouldn't mind volunteering for an organization and loaning my skills as an Attorney or as an Accountant or for that matter as a wall painter or a hammer man.  I looked one afternoon at TY Pro's website to find something to get involved with.  There was nothing that really sounded involving nor easy.

I dont mean easy as in no work.  I mean easy as in  someone says "show up at River Parks at 12:00 for clean it up day."  That's easy, and I help out.  If similar events were to transpire at a local school to help fix the roof, or plant a garden, or whatever... I would like to help out.

But I admit it, I'm too damn lazy to spend much time trying to find ways to help out.  Any suggestions would be welcomed, start a volunteer thread and post opportunities, I'd appreciate it.

[iplaw]

www.1-800-volunteer.org

[runderwo]

quote:Originally posted by YoungTulsan

I'd like to see a few statistics on violent crime and murder in Tulsa.

First, how many murders are gang-on-gang related?  You obviously don't want this going on, or people dieing, but honestly the gang-on-gang killings do not effect me or really worry me.  I'm not involved.

Even if you're not involved it can affect you.  An acquaintance of mine related a story where a kid went to prison after attempting to "cap" someone he was disagreeing with, gangsta style (sideways pistol grip).  Of course, these kids wouldn't know how to shoot a pistol accurately holding it correctly, much less holding it the wrong way.  His slug hit a teenage girl of different ethnicity who he did not know.