Bums asking for handouts

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

Awww, gimme a break.  The NTU is a bunch of flat tax, taxpayer bill of rights, wingers founded by James Dale Davidson (Newsmax, Whitewater, Troopergate, Vince Foster).  That's partisan, pally.[xx(]

The Congressional Budget Office is a federal agency within a then-Republican Congress.

The CBO will give you the same raw data...it just doesn't have any spin on it yet.

[Chicken Little]

Nuh-uh.  The CBO said the top 20% paid 63.5%.  Your taxpayers group said the top 10% paid 68.19%. Both for 2004.

Somebody's numbers are off.  I'm going to guess that it's not the CBO.  Also, why would the CBO "spin" for the Democrats when they were under Republican management?

[iplaw]

Ah I see...CBO versus IRS numbers.  I've heard there are several ways of calculating tax stats, and just like anything else, the person requesting the report is most likely to find the numbers they want from whatever agency makes their point for them.

Either way, we're off topic.  I'll continue, but we should move it to politics.

[Chicken Little]

I'm happy to continue this, wherever.  Your Scaife-bought NTU guys say that an income of  $60,041 puts you in the top 25% of income earners.  Baloney.

[Honeybee]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I was wondering what people's general take is on the increasing number of bums at street corners as the weather improves?

Bum: one who sponges off others and avoids work. A vagrant.

I know Tulsa is known and reputed for being a giving city. I see people handing these men (predominantly men) wads of bills, probably $5 on average.  As I sat the other day at Ikes on Utica and 244 I watched one man collect from 5 or 6 different cars in the 45 minutes I was there.  As I started to leave a white van pulled up and opened its door. He got in and another man got out... they traded the card bored sign and the van headed off.  A shift change for god's sake!

When I worked downtown I was asked for money nearly everyday.  "I just got out of prison and need money for a bus ride home."  "I haven't eaten all day and need money for food." or my all time favorite a man who asked for $27 to get his prescription filled after an elaborate story.  In all the instances above I offered to go with them and buy them a ticket, get something to eat, or fill the prescription (partly calling BS and partly because I dont carry cash).  In every instance but one I was denied and they asked the person behind me (one man actually walked to the bus station with me and I bought him a ticket... for which he thanks me a great deal).

Likewise, in the rare instance that I was able to offer work to 'will work for food' I have had no takers.  I worked for a lawn crew a couple summers in college and the foreman offered several times @ $50  for the remainder of the day with no takers.

I am of the opinion that most people panhandling are indeed bums and nothing more.  Some of them are probably actual scam artists, others lazy and looking for a quick buick.  Everyone knows the will work for food and elaborate stories you hear downtown are BS and Im tired of the "God Bless" signs at freeway exits.  Am I a calloused, cold, heartless individual or... wait, dont answer that.  

I was just wondering what everyone else's take is on this?  If you give money, why?  Is it out of a sincere belief that they need help or guilt or?

Just curious.

Well we have  alot of Homeless in Ca. I feel sorry for them .But hubby says there in that way because they choose to be.I have a Big Heart though so I have tried to help them give them something to eat , or bottled water sometimes I have given money .I know there are some who choose that life and make a great living at it []sad as that is . But I beleive some are in a very down and out time in there lives .

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

I'm happy to continue this, wherever.  Your Scaife-bought NTU guys say that an income of  $60,041 puts you in the top 25% of income earners.  Baloney.

Done.

[Conan71]

Quoting Waterboy:  "The first assumption is that there is this unquenchable demand for lowest price goods. That comes from not having been on the planet as an adult consumer before 1975. Once you make that assumption then everything else falls in place and you all feel confident that anyone supporting a rise in the minimum wage is naive or supports inflation, shipping jobs overseas etc. ad nauseum."

You are right about one thing, in 1975, I was a young whip buying Wrigley's Juicy Fruit at Steve's Sundries for 10 cents a pack and Double Bubble for a penny or two a blob.

Discount stores used to be fire-sale (literally) stores like Wall's, now they are all over the place and they offer durable products at very good prices.

Here's what's happened in the years since 1975: local and smaller regional (10-20 units) retailers no longer dominate the consumer landscape.  Large scale retailers like Wal-Mart, Target, Costco, etc. dominate the market and for the most part set the prices everyone else has to compete with.  Local grocers struggle to compete with Wal-Mart and Albertsons.  The only two exceptions I can think of are Warehouse Market (usually more generic brands there- though I think the quality of their meat is pretty damn good) and Reasor's which is more of a regional brand now.  

Local grocers like Sipes and Bud's just could not buy on the scale these other stores can and could not run a store as efficiently.  Lower prices elsewhere and more stream-lined business models essentially ran them out of business.

Other than lumber and sheetrock, you could get most everything at my favorite hardware store: Harvard True-Value.  When they closed the owner told me he just could not compete with Lowe's and Home Depot.  It wasn't that the prices were significantly lower, it was competing with pooled national advertising dollars and the perception that the prices were lower at H-D and Lowe's.  Home improvement is a good example of lower-price sells.

Ever try to get Wal-Mart to buy a product for re-sale before?  Their buyers dictate how much you will sell it to them for.  Essentially this is based anywhere from calculating how much of a profit margin the buyer thinks you should make on your product to flat out deciding a particular product is worth XX dollars to them.  IOW- the retailer's buyers are more or less dictating the profit margin.  If the manufacturer wants to make more profit, they have to do it via cutting their own internal costs rather than passing them along to the retailer, otherwise they will be locked out.  

Large retailers have shifted focus from quality to price.  Yes they do have higher-quality, higher-priced items, but many wage earners gravitate to the lowest priced comparable item and retailers know low prices will get a lot of people in the door. Witness all the pull-out ads in the Sunday paper with "blow-out" prices on everything from sneakers to washers and dryers.  Low retail price points means there must be lower wholesale prices.

Why do you think that Levi-Strauss, an American icon, now has all their clothes made in Central America?  I bought equipment a year or so back out of the Wrangler jeans plant down in Seminole.  They "phased" it from manufacturing to a warehouse facility to warehouse goods made in other countries- there went a hundered or so Oklahoma jobs.  Why?  Because people like me and you won't pay $50 for a pair of basic Wrangler jeans.  There were lower priced options in the market.  If you do a price comparision, I bet you find the price of Levis and Wranger are pretty close to what they were 20 years ago.

If lower pricing hasn't been a consideration, then why have so many maquiladoras set up across the border?  Why have China's and India's economy ramped up with more and more exports to the U.S.?  Former Soviet bloc countries like Poland and Czechloslovakia have done quite well too.  The answer is that labor is much cheaper and we have a demand for low-prices on day-to-day items and many durable goods.

I've seen quite a few examples of products which cost either the same or less than it did 20 years ago.  The only difference is where they are made.  Go to Home Depot and price out one of those little dorm refrigerators.  One identical to the one I bought in 1984 for $99 now retails for $79.  The difference?  The one I bought in 1984 was built in the U.S. with U.S. made components.  The ones at the big box stores are made out of the country, or at the very least assembled here with foreign-made components.

Here's another example: Fender Guitars another American icon- only about 25% of their product offerings are made in the U.S. anymore.  The bulk are made in Mexico and Korea and to a lesser extent Japan.  Why? Lower price points and big box music stores like Guitar Center which have dictated lower prices.  You can buy a Fender Stratocaster made in China or Korea for about what you could buy a new one for in the late 1960's.

There are a lot of sub-industries which have gone out of the states as well.  There are many products which are assembled in the U.S. but the components are made over-seas and shipped here for final assembly.  Each of those component parts could be (and one day in the past were) made by a company here in the states, but at a much higher cost.

I assure you it is not out of altruism that we are helping the economies of nations with lower standards of living.

Products that used to be made in the USA are being made on the same equipment they were made on here and using the same raw materials.  The difference is that the labor cost is a hell of a lot less than it was when it was being made here and supplying jobs for American wage earners.

[Steve]

I guess advancing age and society changes have just made me more cynical over the years, but now I never give cash handouts to people on the street.  When asked, I usually just ignore them.  I DO give periodic donations to John 3:16, Salvation Army, Meals-on-Wheels, etc. without a second thought.  I consider that money well spent.

Panhandlers for cash don't bother me much, but lately I have been accosted several times outside of QTs or fast food restaurants and fed sad sack stories and asked for car rides.  That always creeps me out; I usually mumble some lame excuse and leave ASAP.  I would never give a car ride to a stranger these days, no matter what.  Sad, but that is how I feel.

[South_Tulsan]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

You are something else with that hand on the gun, Hawkins.

Let's face it; no one's going to ask for your voting record if they want that dollar bill in your pocket.  They don't care what I've spent my life doing.  They just want my dollar bill.

I believe Hawkins mentioned that this incident took place after midnight...

Being approached by a stranger at Quiktrip after midnight would have me reaching for a concealed weapon as well.

As dumb as panhandling is, late-night panhandling is even dumber. I hope that never happens to me, but I'll be watching over my shoulder if I ever have to pump gas that late.

[cannon_fodder]

Per the tax graph, I simply linked to the wrong graph.  I would READILY WELCOME any contrary data.  All the data I have ever seen shows that the bottom 50% pay nearly no tax at all.  In fact, the bottom 25% is actually a draw on the federal government and contribute nothing:
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/TaxFacts/TFDB/TFTemplate.cfm?Docid=268

All the numbers you could ever want.   Most of the numbers are several years old because it takes that long for the information to be released and compiled.

Anyway, I have never seen a credible source that confirms the myth of the tax cuts for the rich.  The only truth in that is that the bottom 25% got no tax cut at all - because they dont pay taxes, they collect them.

It is clear that some people will refuse to look up the data, have a basic understanding of economics, or simply dont care.  If you want to pretend that we have a regressive tax structure in this country - go for it.  The fact is the bottom pool in this country are a drain on out nations tax resources and dont pay into it.  Anyone who has ever been poor in their life knows this all to well - when you look forward to your "refund" after claiming EXEMPT on your W-2.

[jamesrage]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder


I was just wondering what everyone else's take is on this?  If you give money, why?  Is it out of a sincere belief that they need help or guilt or?

99% of the time I do not give.If they are honest I might give them money.I worked in Downtown I heard all those same excuses you heard,you probably even heard one guy try to tell you that his father died in the hospital and left him his car( or the salvation Army gave him the car) and he needs gas and toll both money to get back home.I despise people who try to exploit sympathy by lying for personal gain.Not all the homeless in Downtown are bums,there is this one guy name Wess who offers to write poems for money.



As long as Tulsa lets churches and organizations cater to bums Downtown Tulsa will always be a bum magnet and as long as Tulsa does not have or does not enforce anti-panhandling laws bums will always flock to busy corners.

quote: I know Tulsa is known and reputed for being a giving city. I see people handing these men (predominantly men) wads of bills, probably $5 on average. As I sat the other day at Ikes on Utica and 244 I watched one man collect from 5 or 6 different cars in the 45 minutes I was there. As I started to leave a white van pulled up and opened its door. He got in and another man got out... they traded the card bored sign and the van headed off. A shift change for god's sake!

I remember seeing that occur one time when I was skipping school at Admiral Park,it was when that Ikes used to be a QuickTrip.Although there was no van and they hung out in the park drinking natural light beer.

[mdunn]

My father had the solution to panhandlers.In 1976? My father and I were standing in a ungodly line downtown waiting for Elvis tickets.A bum was working the line with a can he was holding out for money.He approached my dad,held out the can,and before he could pitch his story,my dad says"Well thank you!!"and reached into the can and took out a dollar!The bum was shocked and left.True story.

[RecycleMichael]

When panhandlers ask me for money, I explain to them my mortgage, car payment, credit cards, etc.

I then say, "I am in debt and you are even. You should give me money."

[cannon_fodder]

True that Michael.  For net worth, most of the bums probably have me beat!  Hell, zero sounds like a good point to be at.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

When panhandlers ask me for money, I explain to them my mortgage, car payment, credit cards, etc.

I then say, "I am in debt and you are even. You should give me money."

[}:)][}:)][}:)]

I'm getting ready to go to Arnie's.  I'll see if I have to pull that one out when I leave tonight.