Tulsa's Great Disqualifier

[rwarn17588]

traveler wrote:

I just react to all Christians being lumped in with the "krazies". There are some of us who are concerned with poverty, the environment and Darfur -- not just becoming healthy/wealthy/wise.

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I think Waterboy and the others were quite clear in not the lumping usual, loving Christians with the despotic Christianists.

Listen, this is a free country. Conservatives get criticism. Liberals get criticism. Moderates get criticism. Muslims get criticism. Atheists get criticism. I don't see any law or edict that prevent Christians from getting criticized also.

Public discussion is the first stirrings of producing real change in this country. Christians -- and everyone else -- would do well to listen instead of resorting to a whiny persecution complex.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by traveler

I just react to all Christians being lumped in with the "krazies". There are some of us who are concerned with poverty, the environment and Darfur -- not just becoming healthy/wealthy/wise.
[/quote]

Kind of like an acting, politics or art career. It becomes necessary to develop a thick skin and a tolerance for criticism. []

[Hawkins]

Many small business owners within the Tulsa community consider prayer very important.

Cross-denomination means that the Baptists and the Methodists and the Pentecostals are all on the same page about this issue.

There is nothing wrong with announcing a campaign to pray for the State of Oklahoma. Why would this offend anyone?

If the article was about Muslims praying to Allah from inside mosques at TU for the well-being of Oklahoma, I would also think it was a positive news story.

And positive news stories are the rare kind.

Nothing wrong with the article at all.

[aoxamaxoa]

"Cross-denomination means that the Baptists and the Methodists and the Pentecostals are all on the same page about this issue."

Witch issue? Not the one where those of us on the outside of their church are going to hell?

Yes, that's very attractive to those thinking about placing jobs here or moving offices here.

Someone call Carlton Pearson and clear this article up for Hawkins.....

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588
Listen, this is a free country. Conservatives get criticism. Liberals get criticism. Moderates get criticism. Muslims get criticism. Atheists get criticism. I don't see any law or edict that prevent Christians from getting criticized also.

Public discussion is the first stirrings of producing real change in this country. Christians -- and everyone else -- would do well to listen instead of resorting to a whiny persecution complex.

The point, though, is that the original article contains nothing - nothing! - that deserves criticism.  Re-read the thread and you'll see a couple of posters who are clearly uncomfortable with public prayer.  They're expressing this discomfort through embarassment, and they're rationalizing their embarassment by trying to paint this prayer group as a threat or an anomaly.  

My point is, people pray and it's nothing to be scared of.  Save the bashing for Fred Phelps or Jimmy Swaggert.

[rwarn17588]

Floyd, the thread evolved into further discussion. I initially had no problem with the idea of 24-hour, tag-team prayer (for lack of better description).

But, yes, some people *do* have problems with public prayer because it's -- ahem -- against their religion.

Or public prayer could be, as Tom T. Hall would have said it, "puttin' on a front."

[aoxamaxoa]

For those who are not atheists....

http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/viewmovie.html

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

For those who are not atheists....

http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/viewmovie.html

In the interest of full disclosure, Ax, you're an atheist, right?

If so, you're proselytizing your own (dis)belief just as strongly in this thread right now as any Jehovah's Witness who knocks on the door.

[perspicuity85]

Come on people, leave the 24/7s alone.  What are they doing that's so offensive?  I realize that the religious bodies they represnent are typically fundamentalist conservatives, but so what?  They still have the right to free assembly.  Just because they are sterotypically judgemental doesn't mean they are making any judgements or public condemnations at their 24/7 meeting.  And who has the right to tell anyone how or if they should pray?  
As someone said earlier, let's save our hoes and pitchforks for the Fred Phelps-types.

[aoxamaxoa]

No Floyd. You are wrong. Just because I do not support Churchianity does not make me an atheist. Perhaps, an agnostic. An atheist would not send a link like that.

You should work on not assuming things about others and also on not taking things personally.

You should study the message in the link too......

[aoxamaxoa]

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85

Come on people, leave the 24/7s alone.  What are they doing that's so offensive?  I realize that the religious bodies they represnent are typically fundamentalist conservatives, but so what?  They still have the right to free assembly.  Just because they are sterotypically judgemental doesn't mean they are making any judgements or public condemnations at their 24/7 meeting.  And who has the right to tell anyone how or if they should pray?  
As someone said earlier, let's save our hoes and pitchforks for the Fred Phelps-types.

It was the fact that Tulsa World put it front and center. It's damn offensive to some. I imagine it's offensive to the main cast of philanthropy here in Tulsa. It does nothing for the cities image ...... it serves to alienate. Read the opening post.

[rwarn17588]

<Floyd wrote:

If so, you're proselytizing your own (dis)belief just as strongly in this thread right now as any Jehovah's Witness who knocks on the door.

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Proselytizing a disbelief? Is that even possible?

pros·e·ly·tize   (pr#335;s'#601;-l#301;-t#299;z')  Pronunciation Key    
v.   pros·e·ly·tized, pros·e·ly·tiz·ing, pros·e·ly·tiz·es

v.   intr.

  1. To induce someone to convert to one's own religious faith.

Source: American Heritage Dictionary

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85

Come on people, leave the 24/7s alone.  What are they doing that's so offensive?  I realize that the religious bodies they represnent are typically fundamentalist conservatives, but so what?  They still have the right to free assembly.  Just because they are sterotypically judgemental doesn't mean they are making any judgements or public condemnations at their 24/7 meeting.  And who has the right to tell anyone how or if they should pray?  
As someone said earlier, let's save our hoes and pitchforks for the Fred Phelps-types.

Such paranoia! Assemble all you want, believe what you want, judge all you want, pray what you want. But don't be surprised when non-members of your club comment on the casual way it was put front and center on a non religious community newspaper.

I have been critical of aox on some topics but he has stumbled upon something interesting here. Read the very insightful and clever headline of this thread. This story and its front page placement ARE a disqualifier for people and businesses looking for a tolerant, purposeful community in which to move. And that is just a comment from a marketing/business perspective not a criticism of any religion or religious effort. Face it, The World was pandering.

[Trams]

I'm not so sure this post was based on religion "being a disqualifier" for Tulsa.  The story was borne of animus toward religious groups and their activities.  There's no other way to explain the pejorative commentary contained in the poster's comments.  kooks?  ignorance?  

His is not a reasonable commentary, nor a constructive one in terms of understanding or addressing the influence of religion in Tulsa.  And, I personally don't understand this theory that "we have quietly been taken over."  How in the world does that manifest itself?  Taken over by whom?  If you're referencing the influence of religious belief and practice, how does that differ from any other influence out there?  How are we oppressed by religious belief?    

And I guess, for purposes of this post, how are those beliefs holding Tulsa back?  People don't move here because there is a collective (if quiet, inaudible) "judgment" of them?  Do businesses refuse to move to Tulsa because of this errant aura surrounding the city?  An aura of "you're not welcome here"?  

So, I think this is simply a false argument.  And it is motivated by an anti-religion attitude.  The poster believes that those who are "religious" are non-thinking, and frail.  And, even assuming the poster wouldn't suppress all religious thought, he would certainly encourage it to go underground.  Or at least those "denominations" that are unsavory.  Denominations that are more "free-thinking" and "progressive" would be allowed to practice above-ground, because they're more cosmopolitan and trendy.

I'm not being defensive here, or thin-skinned.  I just think this is religious bigotry hiding behind an argument regarding Tulsa's future.

[aoxamaxoa]

Trams....religious bigotry? Come on. Way to turn the discussion around. Don't think I will turn defensive.

Let's try again. There are many blessed families in Tulsa who give back to this community in a big major way. Many of these blessed givers are not welcomed at these meetings. Unless, of course, they might "cross" over. They are after all "going to hell". Where have you been all these years?

Non of my posts are anti religion. But they are anti intolerance. And the choice by a local newspaper to prioritize this story indicates nothing but insensitivity and back stabbing.

It's not about how these beliefs hold Tulsa back and not about "you're not welcome here". Instead, it's about how these "true" believers dominate Tulsa's aura through their divisiveness with the very people doing the most in the community for the disadvantaged.

I don't expect you to understand. Many of my friends grew up here and moved far far away from what they know to be a hateful, intolerant, and backwards society.

Now, say something progressive or go away.