Tulsa's Great Disqualifier

[Renaissance]

Am I missing something here?  You realize that religious people pray, right?  You realize that organized religion means organized prayers, right?  I didn't see anything about kooks.  I saw devout people praying for the place they live.  

People fear what they don't understand.  The only ignorance I see here comes from those of you who mock faith.  It is hypocritical to criticize supposed right-wingers for being threatened by progress and then turn around and be threatened by their belief in God.

This is part of what makes Tulsa Tulsa.  We're in the Bible Belt - get over it and move on.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

Am I missing something here?  You realize that religious people pray, right?  You realize that organized religion means organized prayers, right?  I didn't see anything about kooks.  I saw devout people praying for the place they live.  

People fear what they don't understand.  The only ignorance I see here comes from those of you who mock faith.  It is hypocritical to criticize supposed right-wingers for being threatened by progress and then turn around and be threatened by their belief in God.

This is part of what makes Tulsa Tulsa.  We're in the Bible Belt - get over it and move on.

I won't get over it and move on. I was born here, I grew up here and I live here. I was here before it was taken over by people who run classified employment ads touting their Christianity. Before every display at the zoo was viewed through the prism of "organized" religion. Back when people fixed Tulsa's problems instead of organizing to ask God to fix them. You make the mistake of believing that people who don't wear their spirituality like a badge on a Polo shirt are simply not Christian, not religious, don't understand and are mocking others. Sounds ignorant to me.

I bet I've been here longer than you. Why don't you guys leave and go to Utah?

[TheArtist]

As long as someone is showing even a little effort to listening and hearing what others have to say, I think having differences of opinions and beliefs discussed is a good thing.  

If I am right about what I think, then I have nothing to lose.  If a person is not around to hear what I am saying, then they will not understand me. Pushing people, who are at least trying, away, will never convince them or enable them to understand my point of view.

Also, if there are others like them.  By arguing or discussing things with them I can start to understand them better and be able to learn how to talk to them, or, as the case may be, learn how to convince them of what I have to say.  It helps me formulate and clarify my responses to the next, like, person.

[perspicuity85]

I don't see what the big deal is here.  Just because the newspaper prints an article about something doesn't mean they're promoting it for everyone.  A local newspaper is going to print information about local events.  In this specific example, Bill Sherman, who is the World Religion Writer, wrote an article about a noteworthy local religious event.  That's it.  I agree that our national image is probably that of televangelists and fundamentalists, but I don't see how this article contributes to those images in any fashion.

If this same 24/7 thing occurred in Chicago, it would probably be printed somewhere in the Sun-Times.  If this was printed in the Sun-Times instead of the World, no one would think the Sun-Times was promoting conservative Christianity or fundamentalism.  But in Tulsa, people are just hypersensitive to those type of things because of our "image."  Whether anyone realizes it or not, Tulsa is becoming a lot more cosmopolitan than it has been in the past.  As more of our population becomes educated, more also become open-minded.

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

As someone else has pointed out on here.  Whats up with this strange coincidence of such high fundamentalist religiosity, usually mixed with a high dose of superstitious and supernatural flavoring,,, and the high rates of poor, hungry, drug abuse, divorce, teen pregnancy, crime,homicide, etc. etc.?

Shouldn't it be that if there is such a high concentration of religious, good, church going, praying, people in the area that those sins would be less than in other areas not greater?

Very Good question Sir...

Let us consult the..

"Ouija Board" or the "I Ching"

[:O]

[aoxamaxoa]

"Jesus is cool but some of his followers give me the creeps".

[Trams]

This post is so inappropriate, it's almost deserving of no commentary.  I was initially confused over whether the post related to (1) the story's placement on the front page of the newspaper or (2) disparagement of those who pray.  I guess it is a co-mingling of both.

And, so, apparently, the answer to the city's "image" problem is the adoption of some sort of secular humanism, and/or overt rejection of anything religious.  Yes, Tulsa would become a veritable mecca of "culture" if it would just focus on secular and humanistic values.  True "enlightenment" (to use one poster's term) can only come through rejection (or, at least, suppression) of religious thought and practice.  Yes, those are the ideals of a progressive city.    

Even aside from this ridiculous argument (that praying people should be shunned), the post is contrary to all modern notions of "enlightenment."  Since when did enlightenment mean that we reject the views of others simply because we believe them to be "kooky"?  And, since when did a city grow and prosper when it FINALLY decided to suppress religious views?        

I'm not even going to comment on the "cross-denominational" language.  One would be required to understand religious doctrine before one could engage in intelligent conversation on this topic.  This would clearly be outside the scope of this post.

[aoxamaxoa]

^"praying people should be shunned"?

Who said that? Quite the opposite. It's just about how and where they go about it, who's in and who's out.

It's about how we are perceived by others and how that affects our kingdom.

[aoxamaxoa]

In honor of his 72nd birthday and in light that "This here hotspot is one of the many millions of places where you can plug into your global community church, get turned on with all your cousins from around the whole joint, and get a mighty mighty jolt of the heavy heavy juice: the healing power of The King."
http://www.elvisunderground.org/index.html

(for Alt)

[TheArtist]

I think many people in this town, perhaps some on here, and definitely myself, have been hurt by certain "factions" of religion. Yes, as adults we should be able to choose to simply deal with it and move on.  But often the wounds run deep having been there from earliest childhood, then constantly rubbed with salt and ripped open many times there after. <hows that for drama?[]

Its quite easy to say live and let live, let there be differences of opinion and belief.  But when the message from the other side is a constant barrage of, if you don't believe as we do, your going to hell... Those "wounds" can begin to ache and if we are not at our best, it can understood if the response to that is at times a bit defensive.  

It may look like a simple statement of prayer, but seen through that history and experience, "Praying for the place they live", can turn into...

We are praying for you, for you are wrong, you are not like us that is why this city has so much sin. Woe is this city so full of sinners. Its not us its you, we are organized, we are on the front page, we are determined, here we are pointing our fingers at you once again. Repent, or go to....

Here is one other thing to consider.  There are different kinds of churches. But these specific churches, "cross denominational' though they be, share a common type of message.  Even within say the methodist denomination, different churches in this town have very different ways of worship and of seeing the world.  You can go to one Methodist church and find a more pentecostal approach and feel, then go to the next Methodist church down the street and see quite a different message and feel.  There are churches in this town of different denominations that get along better with each other than some churches of even their own denomination.

I saw what churches were on the list, and what churches were not.  That should inform somewhat the message that they were sending.

So there, their voices were, right on the front page reaching out, through all that past experience, admonishing those who do not believe as they do. And not only that, they are going to be vigilant and do it twenty four seven lol.  

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

I think many people in this town, perhaps some on here, and definitely myself, have been hurt by certain "factions" of religion. Yes, as adults we should be able to choose to simply deal with it and move on.  But often the wounds run deep having been there from earliest childhood, then constantly rubbed with salt and ripped open many times there after. <hows that for drama?[]

Its quite easy to say live and let live, let there be differences of opinion and belief.  And you can do so for your part, but when the message from the other side is a constant barrage of, if you don't believe as we do, your going to hell... Those "wounds" can begin to ache and if we are not at our best, it can understood if the response to that is a bit defensive.  

It may look like a simple statement of prayer, but seen through that history and experience, "Praying for the place they live", can turn into...

We are praying for you, for you are wrong, you are not like us that is why this city has so much sin. Woe is this city so full of sinners. Its not us its you, we are organized, we are on the front page, we are determined, here we are pointing our fingers at you once again. Repent, or go to....

Here is one other thing to consider.  There are different kinds of churches. But these specific churches, "cross denominational' though they be, share a common type of message.  Even within say the methodist denomination, different churches in this town have very different ways of worship and of seeing the world.  You can go to one Methodist church and find a more pentecostal approach and feel, then go to the next Methodist church down the street and see quite a different message and feel.  There are churches in this town of different denominations that get along better with each other than some churches of even their own denomination.

I saw what churches were on the list, and what churches were not.  That should inform somewhat the message that they were sending.

So there, their voices were, right on the front page reaching out, through all that past experience, admonishing those who do not believe as they do. And not only that, they are going to be vigilant and do it twenty four seven lol.  

That's pretty well said Artist. Trams, you were looking for something that wasn't there, and you found it. This isn't a war between secular interests and religion. I am Christian, btw. We have been witness to a non violent takeover of the psyche of the town. Those not deep into the club resent it.

"And, since when did a city grow and prosper when it FINALLY decided to suppress religious views?" What a silly remark. On so many levels. Show your religious persecution complex. Can you show the converse in contemporary times?

Ok, I'll buy in. I'm starting a prayer group to help Bob Stoops put together a team that can finally win against the godless secular teams from the West coast. We're going to meet daily and continuously pray for guidance to his staff so that our state may prosper from an influx of monies to higher education. I expect some front page coverage in the World and anyone who ignores our effort is simply ignorant, intolerant and humanist. You in?

[traveler]

I wish this could be a good discussion. The Churches aren't doing anything? Trinity Episcopal feeds the homeless every day. First Baptist provides clothing. Am I embarassed by the Crytal Cathedral -- of course. Have Christians screwed up, you bet -- look at the Crusades and the Inquisition. But are we the only ones? How about Pol Pot and Stalin?

I suspect these folks aren't praying "against" anyone, but simply that there would be more love and compassion in our city. Let's face it, we're never going to be a San Francisco or Seattle or New York -- do we really want to be?

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by traveler

I wish this could be a good discussion. The Churches aren't doing anything? Trinity Episcopal feeds the homeless every day. First Baptist provides clothing. Am I embarassed by the Crytal Cathedral -- of course. Have Christians screwed up, you bet -- look at the Crusades and the Inquisition. But are we the only ones? How about Pol Pot and Stalin?

I suspect these folks aren't praying "against" anyone, but simply that there would be more love and compassion in our city. Let's face it, we're never going to be a San Francisco or Seattle or New York -- do we really want to be?

Who said local churches wern't doing anything? Such paranoia. Hey, anything compares well with Pol Pot and Stalin. I'll cut to the crux of my responses. Prayer, religion, spirituality are personal. They rely on a personal relationship with ones creator. To expand it to a group activity is the result of human frailty. We want to share in an effort to collectivize and reinforce our personal views. We can't be wrong if everyone else agrees can we? That implies that those who don't agree...are wrong. Or just don't understand (read the previous responses this thread). That implication evolves into more brazen manifestations and eventually real power. How do you think non Mormons fare in Utah with their businesses? How do you explain the terms "Christian workplace" being used in employment ads?

I have no problem with a true believer spontaneously dropping to his knees in public and praying. Not as common here as in the middle east. I have no idea of his religious affiliation by sight but I know his bravery to do so in such a tightly conforming community comes from a personal relationship that is protected in law, not codified, and not part of a group activity like the Boy Scouts pledge or a rally at the flag pole.

When his prayer is non spontaneous and part of a group, any semblance of sincerity starts to fade. Groups are easily manipulated and its easy to pray for the values of the strongest within the group. Koresh followers were good prayer partners.

Does it do any harm? Probably not much other than reinforce to outsiders that Tulsa is not a place that individual spirituality, private prayer and non conformance rules. We have quietly been taken over. And I certainly understand your view. Do you understand mine?

[traveler]

[/quote]

I have no problem with a true believer spontaneously dropping to his knees in public and praying. Not as common here as in the middle east. I have no idea of his religious affiliation by sight but I know his bravery to do so in such a tightly conforming community comes from a personal relationship that is protected in law, not codified, and not part of a group activity like the Boy Scouts pledge or a rally at the flag pole.

When his prayer is non spontaneous and part of a group, any semblance of sincerity starts to fade. Groups are easily manipulated and its easy to pray for the values of the strongest within the group. Koresh followers were good prayer partners.

Does it do any harm? Probably not much other than reinforce to outsiders that Tulsa is not a place that individual spirituality, private prayer and non conformance rules. We have quietly been taken over. And I certainly understand your view. Do you understand mine?
[/quote]

Touche -- but using Koresh as an example of believers praying is no better than my use of Pol Pot.  Aren't folks in the middle east required to pray 3-5 times per day? Anyway, not to argue, I can't disagree that a lot of "organized" prayer isn't sincere - Christ did tell us to go into the closet and speak to our Father in private. I just react to all Christians being lumped in with the "krazies". There are some of us who are concerned with poverty, the environment and Darfur -- not just becoming healthy/wealthy/wise.

[aoxamaxoa]

God help us when faith silences reason
By ROBYN E. BLUMNER, Times Perspective Columnist
Published January 7, 2007
http://www.sptimes.com/2007/01/07/News/God_help_us_when_fait.shtml
"The link between religion and 'morality'... is fully belied here, as it is wherever religious dogma supersedes moral reasoning and genuine compassion."

"And these people get away with calling themselves "moral."

Why do we give religious personages such a pass? And why don't we laugh Robertson right out of Dodge? Because way too often, faith silences reason, even among reasonable people."


AND HERE! ANOTHER GREAT LINK!
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheSwiftAdvanceOfaPlannedCoup.htm
Conquering by Stealth and Deception
How the Dominionists Are Succeeding in Their Quest for National Control and World Power
By Katherine Yurica
September 14, 2004