Unusual Flooding

[LongtimeTulsan]

There has been numerous reports of flooding throughout midtown. People have reported 3-4 feet of water in basements, garages and their houses. They are no where near the flood plain. This seems to be related to overflow of storm runoff backing up sewer systems.

Improper tie-ins are causing significant portions of the problems.

Anyone else with problems?

[YoungTulsan]

Could have something to do with all the debris from the ice storm.  Initially, there were worries of the storm drains being clogged up by excessive debris, but then it was said they were performing well.  I bet a lot of the junk washed into the sewers and is wreaking havoc down there.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by LongtimeTulsan

This seems to be related to overflow of storm runoff backing up sewer systems.

How would that happen? They are two different systems (unless you live in Boston). Unless you mean that the improper tie ins are either leaking or tied into the stormwater system.

[Gaspar]

quote:Originally posted by LongtimeTulsan

There has been numerous reports of flooding throughout midtown. People have reported 3-4 feet of water in basements, garages and their houses. They are no where near the flood plain. This seems to be related to overflow of storm runoff backing up sewer systems.

Improper tie-ins are causing significant portions of the problems.

Anyone else with problems?

Yeah, My father-in-Law lives in Florence Park.  His storm sewers are full of leaves from the fall and limbs from the storm.  They don't suck out the storm sewers in his neighborhood as much as they do in South Tulsa.  

We have the sewer vacs and street sweepers several times a year out south (last week in fact), but he usually has to lift the grates and pull out his own debris with a pitch-fork.

I'll try to go take a picture this afternoon after it rains a bit.  He's at 27th between Lewis and Harvard.

[tshane250]

Florence Park is actually having a "Sweep Up" on April 19th and 20th, which will include cleaning out storm drains.  However, your father-in-law does not live in FP, he's too far south.  I am not exactly sure what neighborhood that is.

[Breadburner]

Treating storm water at the sanitary sewer plants is a huge expense for the city....Stormwater leaks into the sanitary sewer in many locations around town.....

[Conan71]

I get very pissed off when I see someone sweep their grass clippings or leaves over the curbing to the street.  That clogs a lot of storm sewer inlets and says "Hey, I'm a dumbass, I just let the rain water wash my yard debris away!"

[LongtimeTulsan]

yes, there is the expected back ups due to the heavy damage sustained during the ice storm plus the standard fall foliage --

Asking about weird flooding - example: residents in their "30 years of living there" have never had flooding in their house, garage, basement. Information tends to point to careless infill -- lack of permeable land - look at the fairgrounds - where once there was grass is nothing but asphalt and not a single drain in sight - Looking west from the entrance it all flows down -

27th and Harvard area is too far south for FP South ... hmm... don't know what NA that is.

[mrhaskellok]

quote: How would that happen? They are two different systems (unless you live in Boston). Unless you mean that the improper tie ins are either leaking or tied into the stormwater system.

FYI,   Semantics may be getting confusing.  Pipes designed for carrying storm water are called storm sewers or storm sewer lines.  Sanitary sewers are what carry your waste water with some solids from your homes and businesses.

If you have sanitary sewage getting into your storm sewers, then you have infiltration.   Infiltration is very common in old systems.  

[Robinson]

Many of the construction sites do not have - nor does it appear that they even try - methods to contain the mud sliding into the drains. Check out Utica and 23 (24th) and watch that red dirt running into the drains.

[Steve]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

I get very pissed off when I see someone sweep their grass clippings or leaves over the curbing to the street.  That clogs a lot of storm sewer inlets and says "Hey, I'm a dumbass, I just let the rain water wash my yard debris away!"

Exactly Conan.  And I get more pissed off when the neighbors around me that are too lazy to do their own yard work, they hire yard maintenance companies that just blow yard and edging debris into the street instead of properly picking it up.

It takes no more effort to vacuum up debris than it takes to blow it into the street.  And the street debris not only clogs our storm drainage, but just causes more clean up for those of us that really care about the appearance of our city.

[mrhaskellok]

What do you all think about the concept of just requiring property owners to effectively "deal" with all storm water runoff.  Treat it like a ecological pollution.  We already do this to some degree but not in residential areas and municipalities do almost nothing to offset the millions of sq. ft. of roadways.  Impervious is just that.  I applaud Tulsa for historically doing the "unthinkable" so perhaps Tulsa is ready to take the next step,  Zero-Impact development.  Nothing you do can in any way negatively impact anyone's property.  Again, the government will be there to enforce the rights of any property owner and mitigate the issues.  

I am sure there are both simple and complex reasons for not doing it this way.  Can anyone share some of them?

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by mrhaskellok

What do you all think about the concept of just requiring property owners to effectively "deal" with all storm water runoff.  Treat it like a ecological pollution.  We already do this to some degree but not in residential areas and municipalities do almost nothing to offset the millions of sq. ft. of roadways.  Impervious is just that.  I applaud Tulsa for historically doing the "unthinkable" so perhaps Tulsa is ready to take the next step,  Zero-Impact development.  Nothing you do can in any way negatively impact anyone's property.  Again, the government will be there to enforce the rights of any property owner and mitigate the issues.  

I am sure there are both simple and complex reasons for not doing it this way.  Can anyone share some of them?

One real simple reason. The developers will have to pay more to determine impact and be responsible for their own mistakes.

I drive by an older neighborhood in Bixby off of 117th street that sits in a gently rolling landscape. It flooded this week. You may have seen the pic of the school bus sitting in waist high water. Maybe it always floods, I don't know. But directly across 117th is a much newer development that sits high and dry because their developer raised the topography so that it all drains southward into the older hood along a small ditch. I'm sure engineers, inspectors, insurers, bureaucrats all signed off on this process and are held harmless. Tulsa suburbs don't have to flood, we choose to for economic reasons. The detention ponds work and serve as an example. When the cost of flooding becomes untenable we go back and re-engineer at public expense.

[mrhaskellok]

I see what you are saying...

With your example it wouldn't matter right if EVERY development was required to be able to hold water equal to the amount of water displaced by their development (storage = total impervious surface + amount of rain in a period of time [I am NO engineer, so that is my guess only])

It wouldn't matter if you were above the "flood plain" but still below another subdivision...any new developments shouldn't effect you because their water wouldn't come to you.  

I don't know any of the data, but it seems logical that the reason why there was so much more flooding this time with the rain we have received is because there far more impervious surfaces (along with a already saturated ground) than there was when they engineered our storm water systems.