Arkansas River

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by shadows

Wasn't it an only a few years ago that they were finding parts of the old paddle wheel boat that came upstream to Tulsa?

The corps has had as much trouble with dikes to control the old Mississippi as Tulsa SWM has in figuring which street to place the high water signs in a little slow rain storm.  

The corps (I believe) they have miscalculated some 35 times already where the dikes have breached costing millions of dollars to the uninsured home owners that thought they were protected until the dikes failed.  

Over the years we have escaped major flooding because unrestricted the Arkansas River has meandered across unoccupied land leaving extensive river bottom lands.  When we place restrictions in the unpredictable flow, the water is going to find a place to go.

We can error in calculations on the Arkansas same as on the Mississippi.  Even the big plash fell apart.

Keystone is a dirt constructed dam like those that failed in the flooded areas.      

In 42 years we have only had two flood episodes on the river in Tulsa. One was human error. Not bad management in these parts, especially if you contrast it to pre-1965. In both cases only property that was in areas that never should have been developed were affected.

You make it sound like they just piled up dirt and cross their fingers. Most of Keystone dam is a reinforced earthen dam that shows no signs of weakening. What would be your solution to a meandering river that annualy floods the countryside?

[PonderInc]

I think people like the Keystone dam.  Here's a pic from 1943...back when the river flooded all the time...


Photo: Beryl Ford Collection

[PonderInc]

Did I mention how much I love the Beryl Ford collection being available online?  These are both from 1957:

[PonderInc]

1923...



OK, I'll stop now... []

[shadows]

Waterboy:

In the 42 years we have built as the man FEMA said that even a farmer knows better than to build houses in river beds.  

In our grab to be a big city we have ignored this advice and many find their house are in a natural floodway.   Rainfall as part of the hydraulic's of flowing water is sure not an exact science.

The Native Indian moved his teepee to higher grounds in flood prone times.   Those on the west coast had a problem with the million dollars house going down hill riding on mud slides.

It is estimated that 40% of Tulsa's housing is in flash flood areas.  The reason is that in our hast to be a big city have created another bureaucracies that promote buying flood insurance which has no depreciated value when assessed on annual property taxes and fee's.

I have seen from the 1930 until today that washing away the river banks and reduced farms to 80% of land areas and saw the greatest flood on the local Arkansas in all the years of watching floods. The floods surpassed all other Tulsa flood in property damage even with the Keystone in operation.

We want to compare recent flood but talk in numbers of 100-500 years floods.

We could build a river-by-pass in the oxbow but that would again have to go through Brookside where the river has meandered over the 100-500 year floods.

The solution is to buy out flood areas in the Tulsa are like they are doing at Pitcher.  There after restrict any filling of in the floodway and open it up again.
 

[shadows]

Ponderinc:

Why didn't you show the picture of the loaded train cars parked on the railroad bridge as a safety factor to keep it from washing away

[waterboy]

You know Shadows, I agree with you. This city has been driven hard since its start by builders/developers who ignored the dangers of building in a flood plain to maxixmize their profits. We covered up creeks and built on them then seem surprised that they later flooded. We embraced huge shopping center asphalt parking that accentuated runoff. We built in low lying areas around Riverside (still do) and Brookside then used insurance to cover our butts.

Of course the cost of those floods is spread among the entire insurance paying public. Thousands of apartments subsidized by federal funds lie within a half mile of a river with a watershed of 72,000 square miles. Why? The land was cheap (floodprone) and we needed somewhere for the working class poor. After flooding for some sixty years the feds used the Corps. to build a dam and cover our butts long term. The ecological damage of these dams and their potential for catastropic failure is now becoming apparent.

All because we refused to acknowledge the obvious. Don't build homes within a half mile of meandering, flood prone river systems. Be wary of impeding the flow of such rivers and spend your capital on managing the flow with dredging, channelizing and shoreline hardening.

But it is what it is. The government did what seemed reasonable at the time, it has stopped expensive flooding for 42 years and covered the butts of our developers.

I like the idea of a plan that would recapture areas of the city like south Brookside and convert them into oxbow type lakes that mimic the retention ponds in East Tulsa. A series of lakes near shopping/recreation/highrise housing would be cool. That is grand planning and might work in socio-political climate like China. Not in the last bastion of conservative capitalism though.

[Conan71]

WB, still amazes me how many high dollar homes are built and are being built where flood waters were in 1986 down by Jenks and Bixby.

Chances of that happening again are limited, but at some point the corps could wind up with a floodwater management decision which might end up flooding those areas again.  Granted the stream-gauge system is far better 22 years later, but still doesn't account for all of nature's whims.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

WB, still amazes me how many high dollar homes are built and are being built where flood waters were in 1986 down by Jenks and Bixby.

Chances of that happening again are limited, but at some point the corps could wind up with a floodwater management decision which might end up flooding those areas again.  Granted the stream-gauge system is far better 22 years later, but still doesn't account for all of nature's whims.

I would bet there are few if any pictures of flooding in original Tulsa, downtown Tulsa or near North/South Tulsa.

[cks511]

[/quote]
I would bet there are few if any pictures of flooding in original Tulsa, downtown Tulsa or near North/South Tulsa.
[/quote]

Actally there are several in the Beryl Ford Collection.  It's a bear to navigate but if you look under the year, like 1897 Flood, 1914 Flood, 1923 Flood, 1957 Flood, they are there.   The 1957 Flood pics shows sandbagging on Riverside and some shots of PSO, they are on page 19 of the collection.

http://www.berylfordcollection.com/

[cks511]

I found some more pics Arkansas River flooding on page 125 - 126 of the Beryl Ford Collection

http://www.berylfordcollection.com/

Picture 6279 on page 126 shows the river right at the bottom or the Ped bridge, I would guess it's the 57 flood.  Anyway FWIW.

[waterboy]

Thanks, I will check those out. If you mean around Riverside, well sure. But downtown? In 1897 it might have been area creeks flooding or street flooding since it was unlikely they had storm sewers. Downtown and the original Tulsa townsites sit awfully high above the Arkansas River for it to have flooded them.

[waterboy]

Well, the 1923 flood pics started at about 854. They were mostly West Tulsa around Garden City, what looks to be Southwest Blvd around 41st & Union and mostly agricultural farms and tank farms very close to the river.

I haven't found the others yet, but doubtful the Arkansas would have flooded that high. It would have been catastrophic. Think about the bluffs near the east side of the river at 11th street bridge. The railroad bridge would have been inundated. Those homes around West 3rd street sitting high and dry and downtown buildings like where PSO is now are the original townsites.

edit: I love the site but it is so slow and clunky. Search by "year" and peruse the pics of "main street 1898", "east of bridge", "Toll Bridge"... the first 30 or so pics and you realize the flooding from the Arkansas at that time wouldn't have affected the original town area. For a hoot, check out Orcutt Park, now known as Swan Lake.