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PonderInc
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« Reply #90 on: January 07, 2009, 04:29:41 pm » |
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I've heard from someone who knows Moroney that he sleeps in the Sinclair Building (which he also owns) when he's in Tulsa. Always parks in the alley behind the building, and moves his van before business hours in the a.m. He definitely knows what's up, and is simply attempting to avoid a legal battle.
If you've ever wondered why no one has leased the former Ike's Chili location in the Sinclair Building at 5th and Main, it's b/c Moroney is known as a terrible landlord, and nobody wants to rent from him...despite the prime location and historic significance of the Sinclair Building.
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Wrinkle
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« Reply #91 on: January 07, 2009, 10:11:49 pm » |
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Who or what this man is is not the point.
There's legal process involved here, which is strict. And, in this case, has been subverted to achieve a desired result, independent of all else.
If they're wishing to steal a man's property, they at least need to follow the rules, even if they manipulate the rules to do so.
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« Last Edit: January 07, 2009, 10:12:30 pm by Wrinkle »
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carltonplace
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« Reply #92 on: January 10, 2009, 11:55:18 am » |
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quote:
Originally posted by PonderInc
I've heard from someone who knows Moroney that he sleeps in the Sinclair Building (which he also owns) when he's in Tulsa. Always parks in the alley behind the building, and moves his van before business hours in the a.m. He definitely knows what's up, and is simply attempting to avoid a legal battle.
If you've ever wondered why no one has leased the former Ike's Chili location in the Sinclair Building at 5th and Main, it's b/c Moroney is known as a terrible landlord, and nobody wants to rent from him...despite the prime location and historic significance of the Sinclair Building.
With the ground floor of the McFarlain scheduled to have retain soon it's important that the Ike's Chili location be occupied if we want to see activity in Bartlett square again. I would love to see a sidewalk cafe in that site, but I've checked the rents and they are ridiculous. |
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carltonplace
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« Reply #93 on: January 10, 2009, 12:09:34 pm » |
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Urban Tulsa article on the Tulsa Club: Urban Tulsa"A surprising feature a lot of people don't know about is the roof garden, which was sensational, and the parties up there were always great," Ball said. "It looked out over the Philcade [Towers] and the skyline to the east of downtown. It was really pretty glamorous, actually."
The club also had a slumber room, gymnasium, squash courts, steam room, barber shop, lounge and two-story ballroom with art deco detailing, though many of the art deco features were lost during an earlier renovation. Ball also said the "skirt" of glass block and stone on the exterior of the ground floor was added during a renovation. |
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sgrizzle
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« Reply #95 on: February 25, 2009, 08:27:13 am » |
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Yeah, he has allied himself with the Lofts@120 people (who are already on the city's good side) and traying to get 17x times what they originally paid while saying the building is in poor shape.
Also in the articles it states they have FOUR different leans on the property totaling around 4x the original purchase price.
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DowntownNow
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« Reply #96 on: February 25, 2009, 11:59:19 am » |
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Wow Grizzle, such a broad statement. Allied himself with the 120 Loft people - you make that sound like a bad thing. I seem to remember this board favoring the 120 Loft project and the approach the developers took getting our input. Sounds like they got the run around and beleive it so much they have a lawsuit going over the matter that hasnt been dismissed. Now you sound a little bitter about them. Don't forget these are the same people that brought about the Atlas Life Building's redevelopment into the new Courtyard Marriott - which by the way has started demo I hear and have observed from the back of the building, lot of debris in that one  From reading the article, it appears these people that were associated with the 120 lofts are simply brokering the building. From the Journal Record, Cecilia Wilkins brokered the Atlas Life when it was a Kanbar property. That development is the first inner core private re-development effort in years, so when they say they "... want to facilitate action that makes something good happen for the building and the downtown area" I have to believe them. They haven't given any reason to not trust them. I, for one, am glad they have been able to persuade Mr. Morony into doing something, anything with the building. I drove by today and there were people securing more points on the building. And so what if Mr. Morony is asking a high price? We all know the building will bring whatever a buyer considers a fair market value, regardless of the asking price...thats the beauty of negotiation. I haven't heard that you, Grizzle, lined up to put up $125,000 over 10 years ago for the building when no one wanted anything to do with downtown or its revitalization. The article is right, at least Morony didn't bring the building down and turn it into a pay as you stay surface parking lot like so many others have so, I will give him some credit for that. Heck, he even tried for Vision2025 funds. I hate to see any building in the shape this is in, but that doesnt give anyone the right to criticize the man for making an investment and wanting a return on it. We all do that every day. If he gets that amount, wow, great for him...if he doesn't, he should still count himself lucky and go on. |
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sgrizzle
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« Reply #97 on: February 25, 2009, 01:13:37 pm » |
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I felt Sorry for Will and Cecilia but they never had a contract on the place. I ceased feeling sorry when instead of really trying for another project or moving along, they whined to every outlet possible about how TDA broke an agreement they never really had. Same reason I will never shop at Starship again, it's been years and they are still whining about being "forced" to move into a building 5 times the size of the old one.
The Wilkins are brokering for Moron-y like they did for Atlas Life. The Lofts@120 was a project that exceeded anything they had done to date and was very speculative. TDA may have fumbled on the delivery but they aren't villians.
You can't criticize the man for his investment? If he really gave a rats ___ about preservation or his investment he would've secured and maintained the building like the city has been begging him to do for 10 years.
You ever think maybe there is a reason EVERY tenant has left his other building at 5th & Main? I'm sure it was because he was just too good of a guy.
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DowntownNow
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« Reply #98 on: February 25, 2009, 02:57:52 pm » |
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Grizzle, I don't think its for us to judge the merits of what they had and what they didn't have. Thats for the court and a jury to decide. It is surprising though that if they didnt have anything like you suggest, the case prolly would have been dismissed by now, so there is some potential validity to their arguement.
Again, while I too feel bad for what they had to go through, I don't blame them for bringing it to the attention of others. Just like ZigZag was bringing their complaints to the TDA board and now the Council is wanting to investigate. The Council saw fit to investigate and admonish the TDA for their role in the Wilkins' deal, so again, must have had some merit. All this from people more in the know than you or I with regards to information and therefore have a basis, unlike you, to formulate a finding.
I don't know the specific backgrounds of the Wilkins, but I would assume that if they had the knowledge and ability to pull together both the hotel developer and the property owner and help those parties come to an understanding and make a development of that size happen, they were more than capable of developing the site they intended.
All of this is a mute point however, I see nothing wrong with the Wilkins acting as the brokers on this building and pushing to find a buyer that has an abililty to turn this building around and make it viable again and wish them the best of luck.
Grizzle, I suppose I could ask you what you have done personally to secure any downtown re-investment opportunities yourself? Brokered any deals? Developed any sites? Talked to anyone at all that can or has partnered or developed anything of significance or helps downtown revitalize?
I think your shallowness for blatantly criticizing an individual through your clever use of "Moron-y" is laughable, small minded and weak considering you probably don't even know the man. Other developers may read these blogs and see the ridicule they may subject themselves to by persons such as yourself and never seek this group's support - which would go against everything I thought it was intended to promote. I don't know him as I suspect strongly that you dont. I have, however, spoken with a architectural tenant of his in the Sinclair and yes, one of the few. While the building isn't full, who cares? They seem quite comfortable in leasing the space, the lights are on, its heated and its secured. They even told me that one of the downtown restaurants was even looking to relocate there possibly.
This architect also helped Morony with his Vision2025 request apparently, so it seems Morony made some effort. He also said that the Tulsa Club is virtually in the exact same condition on the interior as the day Morony bought it, even the Tulsa World had reported that the fixtures and valuables had been stripped and sold at auction two years prior to his purchase.
The funny thing is we have never heard anything further of the 60+ other buildings the City apparently identified as being dilapidated or vacant in downtown. Nothing has happend on the Abundant Life Building - just cause someone throws you an exterior elevation (that quite honestly could have come from anywhere and not even been the building in question) you get a free pass from the fines?
I simply honor the fact that Morony chose not to demolish his building, perhaps recognizing its historic and architectural value...whether for personal or financial means. He easy could have converted it to a parking lot years ago and avoided any of this. Would the hands have been out to offer to purchase the building then to prevent it? Prolly not given the times back then and downtown now just starting its revitalization. Imagine the problems he could have avoided by making it more of the asphalt jungle I suppose.
In this case, you either have to take it or leave it, but at least the man's doing something now and there are others capable that are helping him...where were you? If the Wilkins pushed him to start in any direction, well then, good for them. At least they are trying.
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DowntownNow
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« Reply #99 on: February 25, 2009, 03:07:05 pm » |
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Oh and I forgot, I suppose by your wisdom Grizzle, only developers that were born with the inate experience at birth, straight out of the womb, to re-develop an area should ever consider a development opportunity in Tulsa? That makes a lot of sense. I'd be willing to bet that 100% of the developers out there got their start on something else and progressed to bigger and better things...so tell me, what was so different with the 120 Lofts project and its backers again?
I think it was far more than mere speculation, especially in light of them reporting that they had secured a hotel developer for incorporation into their plot one the ballpark got announced. A lot more backup than I've heard from the Public Trust. I'd also be willing to bet that if they had secured that hotel, would have made financing a whole heck of a lot easier if not a done deal.
But all of this prolly should be on another thread.
If you want to discredit the Wilkins' efforts on bahalf of downtown revitalization, I think you're going to have to find a lot better ammunition and stop shooting blanks.
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PonderInc
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« Reply #100 on: February 25, 2009, 04:11:48 pm » |
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If Moroney will sell, and the building is saved / restored / revitalized, I'm happy. (In recent years, he's turned down valid offers from people with checkbooks in hand...but, if things have changed...great!)
B/c the building hasn't been safely secured, people have been doing drugs and everything else in there. I just don't want it to be the next architectual gem we lose b/c homeless people got cold and started a fire.
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DowntownNow
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« Reply #101 on: February 25, 2009, 05:50:07 pm » |
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After all the back and forth earlier, I decided to stop by and see if those guys were still there at lunch...and they were. They were there to secure the access points that were available from the fire escape ladder. Seems those taggers and homeless were getting onto the Philtower parking garage's upper level and then stepping over onto the fire escape of the Tulsa Club and tearing down any boards that had been put up over openings on the roof. I went up to the top of the garage and its only a 1 foot step onto the fire escape. Not really sure how much more secure it can be made and I'd hate to see them drill into those original windows (besides, I think they are metal frame anyway)
I was a little dismayed at how some of the grafitti has been removed, looks like they took a sandblaster to the granite face...kinda screwed it up.
Anyone know if this building is on the historic register?
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Wrinkle
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« Reply #102 on: February 25, 2009, 11:03:34 pm » |
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....less than $28/S.F.
In 1990, a steel-reinforced concrete structured building was costing $125/S.F.
Today, that same building would be over $200/S.F.
Starting with the structure and exterior wall and spending $100/S.F. to remodel would get to 1990's pricing.
Those who suggest his price is too high either doesn't have a clue or understands well enough to know the value of misdirection, and may even have a real interest.
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Townsend
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« Reply #103 on: February 26, 2009, 10:04:56 am » |
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quote:
Originally posted by DowntownNow
After all the back and forth earlier, I decided to stop by and see if those guys were still there at lunch...and they were. They were there to secure the access points that were available from the fire escape ladder.
Too bad he didn't secure it 10 years ago. |
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DowntownNow
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« Reply #104 on: February 26, 2009, 10:49:24 am » |
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I guess I should have clarified...they were there re-securing the access points, the City had asked them too apparently and it was some big push to do. I guess people (homeless and taggers) were getting into the Philtower garage, going to the roof and stepping over onto the fire escape then breaking the windows or the boards off of them. I went up there, most of the windows seemed to be metal frame and had what looked like chicken wire inside the glass panes...be hard to get through but I guess if you want to bad enough...
They said that there were two openings on the roof they were fixing too. I can only guess they were going up the fire escape to the roof and getting in that way. Hopefully this will keep them out but if they are persistent...
I can't believe the police dont know who this 'BeBop' 'Ozone' and others are, espceially since I see their stuff all over town.
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