Horrible Tragedy in Dallas

[BriefRighter]

Although I'm new, I have watched this forum and I know that they have great insight.

To that end, and in light of all of the controversy with the legislators who refused the copy of the Koran, I wanted to submit the story out of Dallas where the father of two girls, one 16 and one 18, murdered them as an "Honor Killing" because one was dating a non-Muslim boy.

I'm sorry that I can't complete the link, because I'm new, but it is on Dallasnews.com.

[sgrizzle]

I found it on foxnews:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,321486,00.html

The Koran didn't kill them, an unreasonable/crazy/stupid father did.

[Derailed]

Well, their Aunt would say otherwise. She wrote an e-mail to http://www.debbieschlussel.com/ which said:

From: Gail Gartrell
Date: Jan 6, 2008 7:30 PM

Subject: Pertaining to the Said Family

To: writedebbie@gmail.com

Debbie,

I am an aunt to these two beautiful girls! I am from the mother's side. YES! This was an honor killing! You nailed it sweety! My sister tried to get those baby's away years ago and you know...she was never allowed to see them again...well, they were brought to the hospital...only after she was comatose! My sister was punished for trying to tell the world what was going on! She died four years ago! But, these girls had no honor in life and no honor in death! Amina and Sarah both, told their mom if their dad killed them...they DID NOT WANT A MUSLIM funeral! Well, they had one anyway! Yeah, there was a "baptist" funeral before the muslim funeral....PLEASE, get out the word it was a farce! They were placed in a Muslim funeral home. The son, Islam...he walked out and went to get the Imam to stop it! My nephew got up and took him outside! The funeral proceeded but, many spoke and all but one...was a MUSLIM!

The Muslims who ran the funeral home...they had us all in a room a little larger than my walk-in-closet! The friends from school.....they could not fit in that room so, they lined them up, against the wall, and in front of the freezers for dead bodies! When it came time for the first song...we sat, sat, and finally, my husband told them he had a system just like theirs and would run it himself...OH...they miracuously got the music going! Then, they set it up so that they same song would play, instead of the other two. My hubby caught this and demanded it be paused, so that the other songs would play!!
As soon as the funeral was over, there was trouble, outside with the brother of Amina and Sarah, ISLAM, is his name! He got into it with one of his aunts and was telling her...get the f ---, out of here and then started running through the parking lot yelling....this f-ing funeral is over ....LEAVE!

Yes, this was an honor killing and I believe with all my heart that ISLAM, the brother, is just as guilty as his dad. Why? Because Amina would not go back home! He went over, where she was staying and was crying. "Please come home Amina and talk things out with Dad! He will not hurt you, I give you my word! I promise, you will be safe!" She trusted those words and went with him. Not an hour later....Sarah made that infamous call! She died immediately after she called as he took his time killing her. In fact, all we have been told is, "she had multiple gunshots".....I still have no clue how many bullets he fired at her. I do know she fought for her life as there is a bruise on her forehead which shows that she did not go out without a fight...one this precious and beautiful girl lost...to a man she knew as daddy!

Please feel free to contact me as I want their story told. They could not tell it but, Aunt Gail is making sure they are honored....even if it is by mere strangers!

Sincerely,

Gail

[LisaPeace]

Obviously, this is a horrible tragedy.  Blaming the Islamic faith for this murder, in my estimation, would be equivalent to blaming Christianity for the death of Andrea Yates' children some years back.  

Same misguided argument.

[Conan71]

+1 Lisa.

[Derailed]

You can find out more at the International Campaign Against Honour Killings:

http://www.stophonourkillings.com/

[TeeDub]

Gotta agree with Grizzle.   The religion didn't kill anyone, a kook did.

I would also like to point out, that yesterday, January 9th, 65 MILLION legal gun owners in the US did not go out and kill someone.

[cannon_fodder]

Well, I have a slightly different take:

The book killed no one, but it certainly instructed him to.  The practice is still common in Islamic countries and is taught by religious clerics.  To pretend that Islam was not the driving force behind these killings is yet another blind homage to the surprisingly war-like religion of peace.

Find me large groups of Christians who drown their children for Jesus and I'll agree that it's akin to Andrea Yates.  Find me entire countries that abide by such religious laws, or wifely respected religious scholars who say it is part of the faith.

For many Muslims (most American/Western Muslims for sure) this is a distortion of their faith, for other's it is part of it.  I know of no Christian anywhere in the world that recommends drowning your children if you think they are possessed.  Yet this is the second time on this forum in several months that Islam has seen murdered a teenager for dating a non-Mulsim.

Any religion can be distorted, but when a large portion of followers distorts it one has to ponder the notion that they represent the religion.

[si_uk_lon_ok]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Well, I have a slightly different take:

Find me large groups of Christians who drown their children for Jesus and I'll agree that it's akin to Andrea Yates.  Find me entire countries that abide by such religious laws, or wifely respected religious scholars who say it is part of the faith.

Christian Sacrifices

Honour killings have occurred in Muslim, Christian and Hindu families. It has nothing to do with faith.

The bible instructs me to kill a wide variety of people due to honour and small indiscretions, even if you found in the Koran similar statements it would not validate the idea of honour killings in Islam anymore than quotes from the Old Testament justifies Andrea Yates.

[Wingnut]

Apparently it's ok to beat your wife(s).
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=A14A51D8-99D1-4E73-B745-737EF04FAB9D

Here's a bit about assimilation...
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=24326&keywords=british+no-go+zones

Can't happen here, can it?

[BriefRighter]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Well, I have a slightly different take:

The book killed no one, but it certainly instructed him to.  The practice is still common in Islamic countries and is taught by religious clerics.  To pretend that Islam was not the driving force behind these killings is yet another blind homage to the surprisingly war-like religion of peace.

Find me large groups of Christians who drown their children for Jesus and I'll agree that it's akin to Andrea Yates.  Find me entire countries that abide by such religious laws, or wifely respected religious scholars who say it is part of the faith.

For many Muslims (most American/Western Muslims for sure) this is a distortion of their faith, for other's it is part of it.  I know of no Christian anywhere in the world that recommends drowning your children if you think they are possessed.  Yet this is the second time on this forum in several months that Islam has seen murdered a teenager for dating a non-Mulsim.

Any religion can be distorted, but when a large portion of followers distorts it one has to ponder the notion that they represent the religion.

This was my point.  It is not that the religion, itself, condones thisaction.  Rather, it is the fact that the religion is very misogynistic and treats women more as property than as human beings.  Another example of this is the woman who was recently raped and was sentenced to lashes for being in the company of a man who was not her relative.  This type of treatment toward women, which is accepted in Muslim countries, is dangerous when it is brought to the United States where it is not commonplace.

[TheArtist]

I think it has more to do with the social development of many of the countries that happen to be Muslim at this time. We dont have to go back that far in history and look at Christian countries and see that women were not treated as they are today. Even just the last 100 years things have changed a lot for women, minorities, etc. The last 200 years have seen incredible changes for a small population of people living in western countries. Small amount of time relativly speaking and for a small number of people and countries in the world. Globalisation and technology in the last 50 years has thrust modern societies and older ones right up "into each others faces", so to speak. And the mixing and overlaping of "ways" within all countries is just going to happen with some startling consequences happening, perhaps right next door to you.

[cannon_fodder]

I do not deny that other civilization/religions do or have done such things in the past.  However, I will not condone their actions either nor will I pass them off as something a few rogue members participate in if that is not the case.

I do know, however, that much of mainstream Islam openly encourages this behavior.  I am not aware of any group of Christianity that openly encourages such killings, which is why such incidence are reduced to rumor, investigation, and estimation.  Sorry if you don't like it, but the truth is much of Islam supports such actions and even publicly participates in them.

Why is it not PC to call out such atrocities for what they are?  Condoned religious killings.  Anyone that thinks Islam is currently a religion of peace had better be willing to say the same about Christianity during the Papal Inquisition, the Crusades, or the Conquest of the New World (during all of which parts of the religion thought it was horrible to do such things in the name of god but enough followed that it was officially tolerated).  When the Islamic Clerics, Imams and Mullahs  step up and decry violence in a near unanimous voice I'll start to listen.

But so long as most of it's world leaders will not, I'll continue to laugh at the Religion of Peace line while acknowledging full well that the beliefs and actions are of course, not uniform among followers.

[jackbristow]

quote:Originally posted by si_uk_lon_ok

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Well, I have a slightly different take:

Find me large groups of Christians who drown their children for Jesus and I'll agree that it's akin to Andrea Yates.  Find me entire countries that abide by such religious laws, or wifely respected religious scholars who say it is part of the faith.

Christian Sacrifices

Honour killings have occurred in Muslim, Christian and Hindu families. It has nothing to do with faith.

The bible instructs me to kill a wide variety of people due to honour and small indiscretions, even if you found in the Koran similar statements it would not validate the idea of honour killings in Islam anymore than quotes from the Old Testament justifies Andrea Yates.

Seriously?  You really think that the Bible promotes violence and killing as much as the Koran?  Christianity as Islam?  Last I checked, the New Testament superceded the Old Testament and Jesus taught to turn the other cheek and to love your neighbor as yourself.

Also, what about the other side of the coin?  Where are the Islamic groups promoting peace and reaching out to help others not of their faith?  Show me some large Islamic charitable groups and missionaries that do as much to help others not of their faith as the many Christian groups that are out there.  

Sure, there are wackos who do things in the name of being a Christian that are bizarre and wrong, but it can be shown through scripture that what they did was not condoned by Christ.  You can't say that about the wacko Muslims.

[Hometown]

It looks to me like Islam, Christianity and Judaism are different branches of the same tree.  We all use variations of the same book.  And of course honor killings are hideous.