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Author Topic: Neighborhood Conservation Districts - Thoughts?  (Read 21766 times)
akupetsky
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« Reply #75 on: March 29, 2008, 08:56:13 pm »

I don't think that the 80% comes from the NCD ordinance (its not in there); it comes from the City Charter.  Under the Charter, any time property is to be rezoned, people can protest.  If 20% of property owners protest, then a supermajority of the City Council is required for approval.  Very unlikely that 7 out of 9 City Council would rezone property when a significant number of people object.  So, technically NCD rezonings would require approval of 80% of the people owning the property to be rezoned.

A neighborhood must get 50% of property owners just to start the process.  If you get 50% of property owners to sign a petition, the City would help draft the guidelines and establish the boundaries.  Then it would go through the same process as any other rezoning--public hearings before the TMAPC, and recommendations to the City Council.  City Council would have the final say.

Michael Bates does a good job explaining it.  http://www.batesline.com/archives/2008/03/maria-barnes-on-neighborhood-con.html
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booWorld
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« Reply #76 on: March 29, 2008, 09:02:16 pm »

^ That's not what Councilor Barnes told Chris Medlock on 1170 KFAQ.

And that isn't how the draft ordinance is worded, at least not the version I saw.  80% agreement of a neighborhood would not be necessary.

In the same interview, Councilor Barnes complained that the Tulsa World was printing things that weren't true.  I agree with that, but by the same token, she needs to be completely factual herself.    
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LongtimeTulsan
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« Reply #77 on: March 29, 2008, 10:53:53 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael

The guy next door to me built a humongous two story attached garage...with four bedrooms upstairs for his kids. It is probably over 2,000 square feet and the garage doors face the street. It is ugly as hell and covered in siding that isn't even close to the color of his stone home.

But it is in east Tulsa...no one cares about east Tulsa.


The movement began with Preserve Midtown, by Midtown residents and gathered support quickly. So begin a Preserve east Tulsa -- it has to start with someone - why not you?

The concern is for all platted before 1970 - before the comp zoning went into effect. How would you morph the concept?

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife department built two metal buildings right on east 21st street and put razor wire fence around the perimeter.

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LongtimeTulsan
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« Reply #78 on: March 29, 2008, 11:08:44 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates

An NCD would not require uniformity of style or homogeneity. A midtown neighborhood like Florence Park could have an NCD where the only guidelines involved setbacks and garage placement, with no reference at all to number of stories, roof pitch, etc. Under those guidelines, you could build just about anything except a "snout house" -- the sort that has the garage sticking way out in front.



There are several neighborhoods in the general vicinty of Florence Park that have a very similiar look - Renaissance, the area just north of the Fair Grounds, some of the pocket neighborhoods north of TU - all of these have the same vintage feel. Drive through Florence Park and the BA house stick out like sore thumbs - they have garages in the front.

Yes, CD's in these areas that addressed roof pitch would be appropriate - as well as arched doorways.

It is just like getting married - when you get the spouse you get the family.

When you buy a house you buy the neighborhood. Else you'd buy elsewhere.
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booWorld
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« Reply #79 on: March 29, 2008, 11:22:57 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by LongtimeTulsan

It is just like getting married - when you get the spouse you get the family.

When you buy a house you buy the neighborhood. Else you'd buy elsewhere.



Does this mean 50% of NCDs are headed for dissolution because of irreconcilable differences or cheating?

When you buy a house, you buy into a neighborhood.  All Tulsa neighborhoods already have zoning restrictions.  Special overlays imposed by others after you've purchased a house are not like marriage.  Marriages should be entered into with both spouses' eyes open.  They should be a mutual agreement based in love and respect.

And spouses change over time, by the way.  The inability to accept this simple truth has resulted in the termination of countless marriages.

"This I tell ya, brother:  You can't have one without the other."    ~Sammy Cahn
« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 10:03:45 am by booWorld » Logged
akupetsky
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« Reply #80 on: March 30, 2008, 07:22:37 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by booWorld

^ That's not what Councilor Barnes told Chris Medlock on 1170 KFAQ.

And that isn't how the draft ordinance is worded, at least not the version I saw.  80% agreement of a neighborhood would not be necessary.

In the same interview, Councilor Barnes complained that the Tulsa World was printing things that weren't true.  I agree with that, but by the same token, she needs to be completely factual herself.    




There are two questions.  First, what does it take for a neighborhood to initiate developing standards for a Conservation District?  The answer under the current proposal (and it can still change) is 50% of the property owners in the neighborhood.  It's misleading to say that you will establish a Conservation District with only 50% of the neighbhorhood, yet that's what the opponents (including the World) are saying.  Second, what does it take to implement standards for a Conservation District?  The answer is TMAPC recommendation and City Council approval.  Although it is therefore difficult to say exactly what % of a neighborhood must support implementation of a Conservation District (because it is ultimately a City Council issue), the best estimate based on the City Charter would have to be 80% because 20% of a neighborhood are capable of effectively blocking the move if they do not support it.  So, I think Maria gave a very accurate answer and could not have explained it any better in the context of a radio interview.  There would have to be wide neighborhood acceptance of the decision to implement a Conservation District.  In any event, it is completely misleading to say that 50% of a neighborhood can "impose" Conservation Districts.
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booWorld
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« Reply #81 on: March 30, 2008, 07:25:45 pm »

Here is what I heard.  If the following are not quotes verbatim, then they are very close paraphrases...

Maria Barnes:  "And, it would have to take a majority of the neighborhood, not just 50% or 10%, but at least 80% of the neighborhood to agree to want to have a Conservation District."

Chris Medlock:  "So kind of a super-majority."

MB:  "You bet."

CM:  "You better have a consensus..." *

MB:  "Yes."

CM:  "...at that point..."

MB:  "Yes."

CM:  "...as to who --"

MB:  "Yes."

CM:  "...how many are going to be there."




*Note:  I'm not certain on this quote.  Chris Medlock might have said, "You got to have a consensus..."    I think the other lines are accurate.


"Don't freak out; don't strike out.
Can't fight it, like City Hall.
At least you're not alone.
Your friends are there too."
  ~Jonathan Larson
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booWorld
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« Reply #82 on: March 30, 2008, 07:47:17 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by akupetsky

There are two questions.  First, what does it take for a neighborhood to initiate developing standards for a Conservation District?  The answer under the current proposal (and it can still change) is 50% of the property owners in the neighborhood.


The draft I saw had a few more options for initiating a NCD.  The City Council, the Planning Commission, or the City of Tulsa's Planning Department could initiate the process with no set minimum of the included property owners agreeing to it.

quote:

It's misleading to say that you will establish a Conservation District with only 50% of the neighbhorhood, yet that's what the opponents (including the World) are saying.


Yes, that is misleading.  As far as I know, the World never clarified the distinction between residents of a neighborhood and actual owners of real property within the neighborhood.  The World articles I've read are laden with bias.

quote:

Second, what does it take to implement standards for a Conservation District?  The answer is TMAPC recommendation and City Council approval.  Although it is therefore difficult to say exactly what % of a neighborhood must support implementation of a Conservation District (because it is ultimately a City Council issue), the best estimate based on the City Charter would have to be 80% because 20% of a neighborhood are capable of effectively blocking the move if they do not support it.  So, I think Maria gave a very accurate answer and could not have explained it any better in the context of a radio interview.


I disagree.  I think Councilor Barnes could have done a much better job explaining this.  A valid petition signed by at least 20% of the property owners within a proposed NCD would necessitate a super-majority affirmative vote of the entire Council for approval.

quote:

There would have to be wide neighborhood acceptance of the decision to implement a Conservation District.


No.  There would have to be an affirmative vote by the City Council to implement a Conservation District.

quote:

In any event, it is completely misleading to say that 50% of a neighborhood can "impose" Conservation Districts.



True.  In the current draft ordinance, 50% of a neighborhood could initiate the process.  It would be up to the City Council to "impose" NCDs.
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hoodlum
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« Reply #83 on: April 04, 2008, 08:29:40 am »

according to the world this morning it looks like Gomez won't be backing the NCDs per his real estate/ developer background
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waterboy
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« Reply #84 on: April 04, 2008, 09:12:02 am »

quote:
Originally posted by hoodlum

according to the world this morning it looks like Gomez won't be backing the NCDs per his real estate/ developer background



District 4 goes republican and elects a real estate/infill developer? Cherry Street goes franchise with high priced contemporary. The worm has turned. May be time for me to move and rent my home out.

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inteller
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« Reply #85 on: April 04, 2008, 09:21:25 am »

yeah, just wait until his contribution report comes out.  It will read like a who's who of all the shady developers.
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Limabean
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« Reply #86 on: April 07, 2008, 05:14:50 pm »

Why do people object to other neighborhoods being able to decide what they want for themselves? If a conservation district is available and a neighborhood wants to adopt it then it is their business. If my neighborhood wants to adopt one then I will meet with my neighbors and we will either decide what we want to adopt or to not adopt it at all. I would rather have resident proerty owners deciding what happens in a neighborhood then outside developers.
Does anyone understand the difference between form-based codes and land use based codes?

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booWorld
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« Reply #87 on: April 07, 2008, 05:43:20 pm »

^ I think the argument is about whether or not some people ought to be able to establish extra overlay restrictions for real property other than their own.

It's doubtful that there would be much fuss about neighborhoods setting up totally voluntary NCD boundaries and guidelines by unanimous agreement.
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Steve
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« Reply #88 on: April 07, 2008, 05:53:40 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by LongtimeTulsan

quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates

An NCD would not require uniformity of style or homogeneity. A midtown neighborhood like Florence Park could have an NCD where the only guidelines involved setbacks and garage placement, with no reference at all to number of stories, roof pitch, etc. Under those guidelines, you could build just about anything except a "snout house" -- the sort that has the garage sticking way out in front.



There are several neighborhoods in the general vicinty of Florence Park that have a very similiar look - Renaissance, the area just north of the Fair Grounds, some of the pocket neighborhoods north of TU - all of these have the same vintage feel. Drive through Florence Park and the BA house stick out like sore thumbs - they have garages in the front.



Add to that list Lortondale, on the east side of Yale at 26th Street.  This is my homestead, and all homes here were built 1953-1955 by Tulsa homebuilder Howard Grubb to the designs of architect Donald Honn.  I bought my home here 21 years ago because of the modern architecture and ambience of the neighborhood, and I will be darn sure to do my best to protect these attributes. NCD's are a great thing, IMO.
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booWorld
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« Reply #89 on: April 07, 2008, 05:58:32 pm »

NCDs would work better for more uniform neighborboods such as Lortondale, IMO.
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