A grassroots organization focused on the intelligent and sustainable development, preservation and revitalization of Tulsa.
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
December 12, 2017, 10:06:44 am
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: "Welcome to America. Speak English" Truck  (Read 4617 times)
rwarn17588
Guest
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2007, 10:53:09 am »

joebaloney wrote:

 This post really tickled me. I'm at a coffee shop so I'll get some opinions of other people near me...

Guy #1 sitting next to me:

"The guy's a crusty ol' asswipe and has got nothing better to do than drive around spewing hate at people he's never met for things that have no effect on him whatsoever." He said it reminded him of this Onion news broadcast.

Guy #2 sitting next to me:

"Man, that's one racist dude. God forbid that Americans might have to learn a few words of a foreign language."

<end clip>

Nice first post. Welcome.
Logged
restored2x
Disgraced - AGAIN!
Civic Leader
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 376


Marble steps - Charm City


« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2007, 10:54:12 am »

quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC

I wish we knew more about what terms mean.  Patriotism is basic love of the State, as opposed to Nationalism; which basically revolves around the Nation.  Sometimes Patriotism describes a movement better, as in 4th of July.  A celebration of the state.  But sometimes Patriotism and Nationalism are interchangeable.  Is the old KKK Patriotic, or Nationalistic?   Answer: both?

We are not a "Nation-State", under the original meaning of the term.  Now, definitions change, and someone somewhere though Nation and State were redundant, and so they changed the definition.  Which makes the term completely meaningless.  And by default, makes Nationalism meaningless.

However, try telling that to the Nazi's.  They were hell bent on creating a true "Nation-State."  A state, owned and operated and populated by the German "nation."

We have no nationality.  We are multi-national, multi-cultural.  Is it Patriotism?  That's such a relative poorly defined term, that it might just be.  Depends on who you talk to.



That's pretty interesting, Michael. I've actually never thought of those as different, but now that you bring it up - it really could explain a lot of the attitudes and ideas being displayed. Could you elaborate? You barely touched on how that is affecting the situation I am talking about, so (I'm thick) I had to think about it for a minute. But I'd like to hear more when you got the time.
Logged
tulsa1603
Philanthropist
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 900


WWW
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2007, 11:27:21 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Kashmir

All I have to say is I was at Supertarget, and my total was $3.32.  I gave the cashier $5.35.  She said "What eezz thes?" in a very charming, exotic lounge. I said "It's $5.35" The lovely lady then said "Vhat do I do weeth thes? I said "ummmm, you can give me $2.03 change"  "Vhat?" and so on.  I guess everyone else just scans the debit card! LOL!

I don't know where I'm going, but maybe I don't care how well anyone speaks what...just know the currency!!

When I worked for CAP, they told us in training that it was rude to do home visitations, parent teacher conferences in English if the parents spoke Spanish! So on top of my low pay and demanding hours, I gotta learn Spanish!  Sheesh! No wonder I quit social work and went to real estate!

However, when I did real estate I had several possible home-buyers Spanish only speaking.  I would always lead them to another friend who was Spanish fluent and let her have the sale b/c I was terrified of being responsible for something so $$$$$ and everything not being crystal clear for the homebuyer.  And they preferred that anyway, so I lost some commissions there.

[Sad]

So looking back, accommodation has cost me on a personal level time and money.  My grandmother is from South America and being the social creature she is, picked up English superfast and didn't expect any favors from anyone.



I've had the same confusion from full blown English speakers when I try to simplify their changemaking - that's just someone who doesn't understand that you're trying to minimize the amount of change you get back.  And really, the shame should be on Target for having someone who doesn't know how to properly calculate currency working the register.
Logged

 
MichaelC
Guest
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2007, 11:27:53 am »

Yeah, no sweat.

You mentioned bigotry and racism.  It certainly could be.  In a political sense, anything that's racist is going to be, generally, closer to Nationalism.  The idea that we are defending our "nation" (race/ethnicity/culture) against outsiders (those apart from our race/ethnicity/culture).

When you mention Patriotism, it's very poorly defined as "love of State."  Can Patriotism and racism co-exist?  Absolutely they can.  Nazi's were very Patriotic, in the sense that they loved the state.  Southern white folk in South Carolina pushing for secession, loved the State (of South Carolina).  They were also racist as hell, and loved the Nation to the detriment of all other Nations.

If you apply the same principles to the US, under the old definitions of Nation, you'll find contradictions and gray-areas all over the place.  

Examples: if the State is multi-national, and you hate other Nations, can you love the State?  If you claim you love the State, while all along you hate everything the State does, are you Patriotic?

But no one has a monopoly on the term Patriotism.  And again, it's definition is weak and broad.  Anyone can claim to be a Patriot, even though often, here in the US, that term is used as a cover for actions that are Nationalistic in nature.
Logged
RecycleMichael
truth teller
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 12862


« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2007, 11:34:32 am »

Illegal aliens have always been a problem in the United States. Ask any Indian.
Logged

Power is nothing till you use it.
cannon_fodder
All around good guy.
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 9166



« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2007, 11:37:31 am »

Great point Michael.  I frequently consider the US a "Nation State" as we have developed a unique culture (blended of others), occupy a specific region, and identify ourselves as a unique group of people (a nation)and control a central government, military force, and world recognition (a state).  But in the historical context the "nation" aspect is lacking in the United States.

So I would argue that we have developed into a Nation State, it certainly is not in the historical context (that being a group of common people come to dominate their area and assert their sovereignty... like the PKK is trying to do or the Polish have had to do repeatedly).   Then again, a Nation State is not inherently good nor bad either (most actually started out as bad, killing their competition to found their State.  Often the competition then moved on to kill someone else and found their State see Normans, Anglo's, Saxons etc.).

Interesting tangent Michael.
Logged

- - - - - - - - -
I crush grooves.
Kashmir
Civic Leader
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 329


"My name is Talking Tina and I think I hate you"


« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2007, 11:41:17 am »



    quote:Originally posted by Kashmir

    All I have to say is I was at Supertarget, and my total was $3.32. I gave the cashier $5.35. She said "What eezz thes?" in a very charming, exotic lounge. I said "It's $5.35" The lovely lady then said "Vhat do I do weeth thes? I said "ummmm, you can give me $2.03 change" "Vhat?" and so on. I guess everyone else just scans the debit card! LOL!

    I don't know where I'm going, but maybe I don't care how well anyone speaks what...just know the currency!!

    When I worked for CAP, they told us in training that it was rude to do home visitations, parent teacher conferences in English if the parents spoke Spanish! So on top of my low pay and demanding hours, I gotta learn Spanish! Sheesh! No wonder I quit social work and went to real estate!

    However, when I did real estate I had several possible home-buyers Spanish only speaking. I would always lead them to another friend who was Spanish fluent and let her have the sale b/c I was terrified of being responsible for something so $$$$$ and everything not being crystal clear for the homebuyer. And they preferred that anyway, so I lost some commissions there.



    So looking back, accommodation has cost me on a personal level time and money. My grandmother is from South America and being the social creature she is, picked up English superfast and didn't expect any favors from anyone.



I've had the same confusion from full blown English speakers when I try to simplify their changemaking - that's just someone who doesn't understand that you're trying to minimize the amount of change you get back. And really, the shame should be on Target for having someone who doesn't know how to properly calculate currency working the register.

 
quote:
Text


Oh I know, I guess I never got around to my point, which was supposed to be, I don't care, just "Come on people now, smile at your brother, everybody get together, try to love one another..."oops.

I find languages facinating and I love listening, especially to those from the Middle East.  It's so different.  But we can't be expected to do things for Spanish speakers that we don't for Vietnamese, etc.  

But the truck guy is probably a Minuteman who sits on his duff and watches CMT all day.
Logged
guido911
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 12037



« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2007, 12:07:43 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by restored2x

I saw this truck yesterday on 169 as I drove home from work. Nice, big Ford truck with giant lettering on the back window - "WELCOME TO AMERICA, SPEAK ENGLISH". The vanity OK plate also said "SPK ENG".

For some reason, this really got me up in arms. I guess I can understand how the person may feel - maybe. Perhaps someone on here can enlighten me.

Before the discussion begins, let me tell you how I feel initially:

The message on the truck displays ignorance in that it doesn't say, "Learn English", just "speak english", as though every person on earth (or at least an immigrant) is born with a command of the english language and is just refusing to speak it.

The message on the truck is ethnocentric, in that it assumes english is the best or only language an American should speak. Ethnocentricity has it's roots not in patriotism, but in arrogance and cultural bias.

I could go on - but I'd rather hear feedback from you first. Am I missing something? Is this just based in fear (is the guy in the truck afraid those "ferners" are talking about him everytime they speak in their native tongue?) or is there some intelligence behind the message that I'm too dense to decipher?

If this has already been discussed, just lead me to that discussion, or ignore the post, please. (Search turned up nothing)



I am glad we have yet another thread bashing Oklahomans as racists, rednecks, etc. Its been a long time.

I wish every citizen of this state would check with this forum before they go out and decide to use that free speech or other First Amendment stuff. That way, people would know in advance that you, RW, and others might be offended or be "up in arms."  


Logged

Someone get Hoss a pacifier.
MichaelC
Guest
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2007, 12:09:35 pm »

I have to disagree a bit, CF.  I can't accept the newer definition of Nation-State, because the term is basically redundant and therefore meaningless.  And not all Nationalists are Patriots.

Example:  Michigan Militia.  Nationalists, they might like to call themselves Patriots, but they don't love the state.  Timothy McVeigh, Nationalist.  Anti-gov't movements have the tendency to align themselves with Nationalistic  (ethnic/race/cultural) interests.  The Branch Dividians, Nationalists revolving around the culture of a religious sect, scared to death of the State.  The Black Panthers, Nationalists.  They don't care about the State, only advancement of a Nation within the State.  KKK, Nationalists, sometimes aligned with Aryan Nation anti-gov't and Anarchist groups.  

And then there are wide differences in culture, besides smaller ethnic pockets, like East Tulsa or North Tulsa, there are even differences among average citizens just because of geographic locations (say New York, Oregon, and Oklahoma).

And, "Nation-State" is a Utopian concept.  It's not necessarily good or bad.  But, it's also not necessarily reasonable to believe that it would ever exist in practice.  It's purely theoretical, and quite possibly impractical.  Though some have tried.
Logged
MichaelC
Guest
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2007, 12:29:59 pm »

One other concept, that hasn't been mentioned yet, that might assist in the understanding of the old "Nation" versus the old "State", is the term Fascism.  Fascism is the result of a merger between Nation and State, Nationalism and Patriotism.  Fascism, historically, is where the State projects Nationalism, with an equal amount of promotion of Patriotism.  And there's no more difference between the two concepts, they combine and work together for the same goal.

That definition has been muddled up some too, just like Nation and Nationalism.  But gray areas aside, in practice, most literally "Fascism" combines the Nation concept and the Patriot concept, with the State itself.
Logged
Hometown
Guest
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2007, 12:42:59 pm »

One of the distinctive things about Oklahoma is that we find ourselves with a large number of Native American people.  I believe Oklahoma should do everything possible to preserve Native cultures and languages.

My motherís last and one of her best boyfriends was a Native American man who cut hair here in Tulsa for many, many years.  He talked about growing up in Oklahoma.  When he was growing up he was separated from his family and put in a school where he was forbidden to ever speak his native tongue.  Obviously this left a lot of scares.  Thank goodness those days are long gone and the people that formed those old policies have been completely discredited.

Differences excite me but it seems that for many people differences are frightening.  Like my city friends who are literally frightened of Okies.  

Logged
restored2x
Disgraced - AGAIN!
Civic Leader
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 376


Marble steps - Charm City


« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2007, 12:44:47 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by guido911

quote:
Originally posted by restored2x

I saw this truck yesterday on 169 as I drove home from work. Nice, big Ford truck with giant lettering on the back window - "WELCOME TO AMERICA, SPEAK ENGLISH". The vanity OK plate also said "SPK ENG".

For some reason, this really got me up in arms. I guess I can understand how the person may feel - maybe. Perhaps someone on here can enlighten me.

Before the discussion begins, let me tell you how I feel initially:

The message on the truck displays ignorance in that it doesn't say, "Learn English", just "speak english", as though every person on earth (or at least an immigrant) is born with a command of the english language and is just refusing to speak it.

The message on the truck is ethnocentric, in that it assumes english is the best or only language an American should speak. Ethnocentricity has it's roots not in patriotism, but in arrogance and cultural bias.

I could go on - but I'd rather hear feedback from you first. Am I missing something? Is this just based in fear (is the guy in the truck afraid those "ferners" are talking about him everytime they speak in their native tongue?) or is there some intelligence behind the message that I'm too dense to decipher?

If this has already been discussed, just lead me to that discussion, or ignore the post, please. (Search turned up nothing)



I am glad we have yet another thread bashing Oklahomans as racists, rednecks, etc. Its been a long time.

I wish every citizen of this state would check with this forum before they go out and decide to use that free speech or other First Amendment stuff. That way, people would know in advance that you, RW, and others might be offended or be "up in arms."  






I don't know if the guy is Oklahoman or not. He can say whatever he wants. SO CAN I. I've lived in a lot of places and seen racism and bigotry everywhere I've been. It ain't no secret. How you came to the conclusion that I was wholesale calling all Okies racists is a mystery to me. I've read my posts several times before replying to see if I miss-spoke, and I have not found a trace of Okie-bashing.

I am not bashing Okies. That was not my intent. I'm sorry if I came off that way. I worded my statements, questions and comments to specific situations - not a group of people. If I thought Oklahoma was nothing but bigots and racists, or backward and uneducated - I would leave. I happen to really like where I live. One guy in a red truck doesn't change my view of Tulsa. This is a public forum - and I wanted to discuss this. No ulterior motive.

In processing how I feel about the SPK ENG truck - yes, I guess I do find it offensive. Some of my reasons are stated here - as my own personal opinion. You may disagree, or take it personal and that's OK. Please, don't put words in my mouth.
Logged
rwarn17588
Guest
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2007, 01:16:24 pm »

<Guido wrote:

I wish every citizen of this state would check with this forum before they go out and decide to use that free speech or other First Amendment stuff. That way, people would know in advance that you, RW, and others might be offended or be "up in arms."

<end clip>

The First Amendment gives you the right to be offensive, Guido. It also gives you the right to speak out against what you think is offensive, which is what is happening here.

That's fine by me. I trust that you feel the same about our Constitution.
Logged
Chicken Little
Guest
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2007, 01:45:51 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by guido911

I am glad we have yet another thread bashing Oklahomans as racists, rednecks, etc. Its been a long time.
And I'm so glad we've been blessed with another of your wingnut quips.

You know, if you ever bothered to read any of these threads before jumping in with your thought-provoking commentary, you'd probably realize that most of your conservative "fellow travelers" on this board have opinions that are nuanced and interesting.  Perhaps that's why they come here...you know, to discuss, debate, argue, etc.
Logged
Wingnut
Guest
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2007, 02:08:31 pm »

From what I understand, air traffic controllers all over the world have to speak english. English is pretty much the standard language of aviation. That would also require all (at least commerical) pilots to speak english also.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

 
  Hosted by TulsaConnect and Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
 

Mission

 

"TulsaNow's Mission is to help Tulsa become the most vibrant, diverse, sustainable and prosperous city of our size. We achieve this by focusing on the development of Tulsa's distinctive identity and economic growth around a dynamic, urban core, complemented by a constellation of livable, thriving communities."
more...

 

Contact

 

2210 S Main St.
Tulsa, OK 74114
(918) 409-2669
info@tulsanow.org