RiverTrail Improvements Include NOT Lousy Lighting

[In2neon]

quote:Originally posted by patric

quote:Originally posted by In2neon

While technically what you say may be true,  my overall perception says different...
If I have been driving in sodium light for a while and then arrive to a place like DT Dallas where it is  lit with Metal Halide,  and my eyes and my psyche seem to have a weight lifted off of them ...

Perceptions can change.  Just trust your eyes.

You can experience the same type of "relief" when transitioning from the harshness of Metal Halide back to the muted colors of Sodium, so you may be really just enjoying periodic changes of scenery.  

REPLY BY IN2NEON...
Not for me, but again this is just me....I have been involved in lighting for 35 years and manufacture light sources in nearly all colors and there are some you just don't use for certain effects...
People and food look bad in green neon and purple is useless for illumination...
While full spectrum 3500 white people and surroundings look natural like in sunlight...
Clear mercury is best for moonlight effects and foliage, it comes alive, and snowfall looks incredible... but people look horrible when near a clear mercury light source...
MH is OK for tree lights but the foliage looks better w/ mercury...
Trees and residential surroundings look flat and lifeless in sodium lighting....
I have driven DT Dallas where there is properly done MH lighting after driving in sodium and what a releif...
then down the road and back to sodium and it seems "dirty" to look around in...

quote:
I think a clear night sky in the city is not a likely scenario since this is a free country and people and companies can light their property, and will, no matter how ugly ...

Yet there are a number of Tulsa-sized communities that do successfully regulate outdoor lighting to eliminate wasteful practices  like glare, light trespass and skyglow.  They remain not only a free society but enjoy a higher quality of life, safer easier-to-see streets, pay less taxes for their municipal lighting and sometimes benefit from tourism that comes with a clear night sky.
I would be happy if we were able to reign in the out-of-control spending on wasteful city lighting.  What could we do with a couple of extra million?  Keep pools open in summer?  Head off utility rate hikes?  


REPLY BY IN2NEON...
Oh I agree with the waste factor and somehow an investor driven utility can make money on waste, imagine that...
the more dollars and energy they waste the more profit...
Why dont you think they will not "approve" cool fixtures that have a retro look like the holophane URB with only a 70 watt MH/
The fixture costs more and the use of electricity would be less...
To spell it out they cant make as much money off of a quality fixture and light source so they tell you sodium is the best light and most reliable blah blah blah and wont even listen to thinking outside their little box...
Even had one tell me that when I wanted a MH cobrahead installed on a site that they did not even make such a thing and went on to try to sell me on sodium ...
I asked him how many Mh fixtures he would like me to order for him ...

quote:
MH indeed has a lesser lifespan but also should be replaced before it actually dies for the sake of light output and color...
However, the new (somewhat of a breakthrough) pulse start (and most lower wattage MH lamps already are) lamps have longer life and more stable color and lumen output...
In my opinion it is more likely a third less useable life and I would gladly replace lamps more oftem (slightly) and have quality lighting than a lot of light that is poor quality...

Wholesale changing out of groups of lamps near the end of their life (rather than playing catch-up one-at-a-time when they start dying) is  they type of Lumen Maintenance that professionals often do with Sodium, Metal Halide, Fluorescent, etc.  But with Metal Halide you should expect to do it twice as much as with Sodium.  


REPLY BY IN2NEON...
While I understand where you are coming from I cant completely embrace the philosophy concerning maintenance...
From what you say, if researchers discover a green or purple light that lasts 3 times longer than MH we should learn to like it solely based on maintenance???
Tell ya what, I would GLADLY pay extra on my light bill for the light in front of my house to be MH , or even furnish and replace my own bulbs ,but try to get AEP to go for that...
   

Woodland Hills started out with 1kw HPS fixtures in the 70s and changed out everything a number of years ago and the facility has a much more pleasing appearance now, than then, even if a lot of light is wasted through too high wattage distribution, that's another rant...

I fully agree that when a more efficient technology comes along, you should use the opportunity to save the electricity while maintaining the illumination level, but electric utilities and greedy merchants instead take the approach of burning the same Watts but increasing their illumination levels, even if it accomplishes nothing more than to say "look at me!"  

 REPLY BY IN2NEON...
Yeah I hate the philosophy of just "look at me"
I would rather someone in their business would have the public "look at me" with some taste and design elements in the neon rather that what just gets attention and looks ugly aside from attention grabbing...I hate the overkill in lighting but you will have a fight to show most un-taught businessmen how to properly light something which can grab attention and hold it with good taste too... Many just think the brighter the more it will draw in business..
Some truth in that but it should be controlled, or bridled, if you will, to maximize the effect for both worlds...
I dont like to go to a place that looks closed ...
But, I hate the lighting around say, Burger Street, Warehouse Mkt, or Wendy's @ 31 Harv.
Very crappy lighting...


We may very well find that the new Riverparks lighting, while superior to other glary lighting along the parks, may be overlitlit out-of-scale with it's surroundings (even after the lamps settle in).  AEP wants municipal lights to burn a minimum amount of watts to load down it's off-peak system or they wont "recommend" Public Works approve them.  So we are left with the question of do we force ourselves to adapt to AEP's needs or should it be the other way around?  


REPLY BY IN2NEON...
What a load of crap that PSO has ANY say in our lighting around our town other than to serve the public best...
Why does the City just blindly follow their recommendations when there is a motive to skew numbers and facts to maximize their profit potential..I am all for making a profit but let's just put all the cards on the table and all the facts not just the skewed facts they want to promote and then act like that is all there is to be known..

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by In2neon

To spell it out they cant make as much money off of a quality fixture and light source so they tell you sodium is the best light and most reliable blah blah blah and wont even listen to thinking outside their little box...
Even had one tell me that when I wanted a MH cobrahead installed on a site that they did not even make such a thing and went on to try to sell me on sodium ...
I asked him how many Mh fixtures he would like me to order for him ...

That's hysterical, but consistent with my dealings with AEP.

quote:
What a load of crap that PSO has ANY say in our lighting around our town other than to serve the public best...
Why does the City just blindly follow their recommendations when there is a motive to skew numbers and facts to maximize their profit potential..I am all for making a profit but let's just put all the cards on the table and all the facts not just the skewed facts they want to promote and then act like that is all there is to be known..

It's almost like the city giving AEP a blank check.  
Part of this is our fault, however.  When people complain loudly how much they "need" even the poorest and most inefficient lighting to ward off evil from their streetcorner, it's easy for a politician to just say "gimmie more" and the utility obliges.  

There are municipalities (and even states) that require that to install new municipal lighting, you must first "warrant" the need as well as demonstrate that the lighting will actually meet that need.  
For instance, a roadway with no pedestrians is better served by maintaining reflective markers than with a lighting system, while an area with pedestrians is better served with pedestrian-oriented lighting.  Not like our "one-size-fits-all" from the utility that gets its way by default.

One of the more "hip" developers in Tulsa described the streetlighting bureaucracy in Tulsa as nothing short of scandalous.      
Since it involves millions in tax dollars every year, maybe it's a scandal we should be addressing  a bit more.