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November 21, 2017, 09:51:38 am
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Author Topic: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....  (Read 9401 times)
Rico
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« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2007, 07:00:13 am »

^ Bottom line...

I don't think they can be stopped. Mr Williams is their "Trojan Horse"..

In other cities their are rules in place for a development. In the Eastend; it has been community involved people that have given us what we have there now.

"Global" seemed to sense what was a desirable development for the area..

On the other hand, Think about this....

Home Depot.. and across from that, with easy freeway access, a Wal Mart..

If you know of a way they can be stopped from coming let me know... I am all for that.
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Double A
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« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2007, 02:34:08 pm »

Stop the TIF District. Stop Wal-Mart.
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The clash of ideas is the sound of freedom. Ars Longa, Vita Brevis!
USRufnex
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« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2007, 10:56:29 pm »

hmm... per usual on this subject, it's hard to know where to even begin to respond...

I think if Mayor Taylor showed a more active interest in this project, it would be in stark contrast to her first political year of Vision2025 photo ops, ego coddling, fairgrounds power grabs and getting a clue about how Tulsa actually operates........ Only then might something actually come to fruition in the East End.  Which could start the ball rolling in the Kanbar camp.  Since we haven't heard anything at all of substance over the past few weeks, I assume the silence means something is being done "quietly behind the scenes" to settle the issue... all I can say is, THERE'D  BETTER BE.  

"Paging Mayor Taylor . . . Mayor Taylor, please pick up the white courtesy phone."

To choose between Global Development's "plans" and an urban WalMart?

That's like choosing between a Mercedes and a Buick... a no-brainer.  I'd like the Mercedes, please... and I'd also like a pretty pony, too..

But I'll take a well running Buick over a Mercedes lacking an engine any day of the week...

Quiz Question #1:  Which Tulsa TIF (tax increment financing) district has been far and away the most successful since Tulsa started creating them under former mayor Susan Savage?

A. The bohemian mix of restaurants, bars, shops and artist studios on Brady.

B. The eclectic mix of bars, nightlife, etc. at the Blue Dome.

C.  The big box retailer and upscale condo development divided by a major highway.



In my opinion, if LaFortune were re-elected, this East End project would not have been left to flounder for so long... but oh, I forgot... it's all about political cronyism... yeah, how dare anybody give credit to former mayor LaFortune who attracted Global in the first place... how dare anyone point out that if it weren't for former mayor LaFortune's leadership and due diligence in attempting to secure a Major League Soccer team for Tulsa, these people from DC would never have been attracted to Tulsa in the first place... how dare anyone give credit to the former mayor whose actions attracted the investments of Kanbar and Kaufmann... how dare anybody look back at the beginnings of this "East End" project to see how downtown activists tried to sabatoge it from day one by insisting on the perfect over the good...

1) Deja Vu
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5967&whichpage=2&SearchTerms=walmart%2C

Yep.  Deja vu.  Like 5 years ago when I was pleasantly surprised by life in Tulsa...... I was surprised at the tenor of the mayoral debate going on between Susan Savage and LaFortune, a debate about "vision."  And I think alot of former Tulsans were intrigued at what was going on in the leadup to Vision2025... was it perfect?  No.  Was it good.  Yes.

Is it going to be good enough?  Not sure.  What would downtown OKC be like today if only the first MAPS project had passed?

"Stop the TIF District. Stop Wal-Mart."

Pray tell Double A, what is your "vision" for downtown Tulsa?

More sales taxes?... replacing the handful of feeble TIF districts Tulsa's already established with something cooler that would attract even less investment?... a downtown tax-subsidized "upscale" Costco with a sparse, yet rude staff of overpaid, underqualified, unionized glorified-stockboys making a starting wage of $16 an hour...Huh

Ooooh, pinch me.  [:O]
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jdb
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« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2007, 12:54:33 pm »

"...TIF far and away the most successful..." -USR


I must have missed all the dense urban growth that's sprung from that fountainhead.

A little pile of money, big deal.

"Hey, I got an idea...lets go down to the Urban WM in DT and do some people watching."
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Double A
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« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2007, 06:30:39 pm »

Listen all of y'all it's a sabotage. You are starting to sound more paranoid than the Wal-Mart Conspiracy theorists that drive you so crazy.
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TheArtist
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« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2007, 06:32:19 pm »

People?....Downtown?  riiiiiiiight, thats a good one.
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"When you only have two pennies left in the world, buy a loaf of bread with one, and a lily with the other."-Chinese proverb. "Arts a staple. Like bread or wine or a warm coat in winter. Those who think it is a luxury have only a fragment of a mind. Mans spirit grows hungry for art in the same way h
USRufnex
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« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2007, 09:10:28 pm »

Why should I have to move to a city that values progress? (i.e.... Chicago and .... drumroll please...... Oklahoma City!)

Can the city of Tulsa just trade Rico, Double A and JDB to Coffeeville for a future draft pick?  (heck, I'd throw in Average Joe at no extra charge...) [}:)]

Next month I'll post my 6th month in Tulsa anniversary bar-hop-pub-crawl-pulse-of-Tulsa feasability study..... don't miss it.

Have a nice day, urban activists.  [Tongue]
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jdb
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« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2007, 09:33:59 pm »

Nah, I am strickly second string...and what with AJ being more of a ...well, starbucks/ camaroonies kinda guy, poor rico - who's at the mercy of his barren plain of a mind - is a mess...and that would leave AA standing out in the rain wearing bunny slippers and biting bullets.

I'll take Tucson for $300.00, jdb
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AVERAGE JOE
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« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2007, 11:07:44 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex

Can the city of Tulsa just trade Rico, Double A and JDB to Coffeeville for a future draft pick?  (heck, I'd throw in Average Joe at no extra charge...) [}:)]


So I'm the "player to be named later"? Sweet! [Tongue]
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USRufnex
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« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2007, 02:53:02 pm »

"...A little pile of money, big deal..." --jdb

Except that "little pile of money" is still roughly SEVEN TIMES LARGER than the piles of tax $$$ taken in from the other 2 projects, even when you take into account the fact that the Blue Dome district's only been designated TIF since 2003.

quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex


Quiz Question #1:  Which Tulsa TIF (tax increment financing) district has been far and away the most successful since Tulsa started creating them under former mayor Susan Savage?

A. The bohemian mix of restaurants, bars, shops and artist studios on Brady.

B. The eclectic mix of bars, nightlife, etc. at the Blue Dome.

C.  The big box retailer and upscale condo development divided by a major highway.


Pencils down, please...

http://www.tulsadevelopmentauthority.org/things_tax_increment.html

http://www.tulsadevelopmentauthority.org/tif_district_map.pdf

A.  Brady Village Tax Increment District #1 – Established 1993 (expires 2008)
The plan created an Arts & Entertainment District. Now in its 12th year an increment of approximately $1,025,000 has been appropriated to the Brady Village District consisting of both sales tax and ad valorem
Art studio located within Brady Village District increments.

B.  Blue Dome Tax Increment District #5 – Est. July 2003 (expires 2018)
This district encompasses nine square blocks within the northeast quadrant of the CBD. The area features eight buildings with a high level of both architectural and/or historical significance, including the "Blue Dome" building, a 1920s era Gulf Oil station and the old Santa Fe Historic Blue Dome, renovations underway Railroad Depot......Increased property and sales tax revenues, currently totaling $163,000, are being used to enhance the safety and security of the area in the form of Fire Suppression Vault Installation assistance program and streetscaping that includes sidewalks, alleyways, lighting, benches, landscaping and parking improvements.

And the correct answer:

C.  Central Park Tax Increment District #2 – Established 1994 (expires 2009)
Created in conjunction with the downtown Home Depot, funds from the District constructed streetscaping adjacent to the Home Depot site. Incremental sales and property tax revenues to date total approximately $7 .2 million.

The pressing question is, and always has been....... how large must the project be to finance a baseball stadium?  Would it require something ten times the size and scope of the Central Park project?  Are we really talking only 15 years or will the East End TIF District require 20+ years...Huh  Could two separate projects co-exist in the same TIF designation?  Could the ballpark present an unnecessary drain on the project or would taxes on tickets to Drillers' games/concessions be included as part of the TIF?

Oh, and if it fails, who shares the risk?

Inquiring minds want to know.
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jdb
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« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2007, 03:54:39 pm »

$7 .2 million - sure, I know, but at what cost?

Like it, or not, inside the IDL is limited.

The Big Fat Eyesore of home improvement, oh la la cha ching, has about hit it's life span...

The Big Fat Prison is now what, a convicts stone toss from our Big Fat Crown Jewel the areNa...

Demolish any incentive for people to snoop out DT by plunking down a Big Fat walmart - which they already have in their own backyards...

What say we stuff a AAA ballpark inside the loop and really give people reason the complain about parking.

"But Ted, we don't got much room left for a walkable community down here anymore."

"Screw 'em, grab the cash were outta here."

The focus of a big push should have been Brady or bluedome with a Big Fat Red circle around the word "rooftops": as the EE was the last area that could have been an incubator for kooky upstarts....

Odd how there's more Art in the EE then Brady or bluedome isn't it? Why is that? How long has it been that way? What started it?

TIF's don't make cool happening places but they do push the cool happening people out and crush down the spaces they occupied.

But what's it really matter when most don't even begin to understand.
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USRufnex
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« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2007, 05:00:07 pm »

er,uh... yeah, right.

Starving artists have been shopping at WalMart stores for decades... the ones that don't are more than likely still spending mumsy and dadsy's money at Utica Square... or are married to lawyers...

Home Depot isn't an eyesore... those old Nordam warehouses ARE..... the east village/east end has eyesores in spades.  In my opinion, the Home Depot was tastefully done along the highway.... actually makes the building in front of it stand out.

I think about what Chicago looked like when I moved there 17 years ago... times change, people change... artists, singers, actors, comedians sought out cheap housing in seedy areas to make ends meet... nobody could afford to live in most areas of downtown... one neighborhood becomes "the real deal," then gentrifies... then another neighborhood becomes "eclectic" and then a few year later gentrifies...

It's a rarity when you see something like The Paseo district in Oklahoma City-- a cool, hip (maybe more "hippie") area that has been there for decades/generations...

Good luck stormin' the castle... bet those anti-WalMart signs will be just as popular in Tulsa as any anti-Sears or anti-McDonald's signs would be in Chicago...

A sports stadium will not mark "the death of downtown Tulsa."  An urban WalMart will not mark "the death of downtown Tulsa."

The status quo will continue to mark the death of downtown Tulsa.  


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jdb
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« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2007, 07:59:17 pm »

"one neighborhood becomes "the real deal," then gentrifies... then another neighborhood becomes "eclectic" and then a few year later gentrifies..." - USR

Yep, that's one routine.

Hey, did Chicago tear down most of it's DT smaller buildings leaving just a few micro-hoods standing?

Obviously there is no single magic pill, bullet or person to save or finish off DT, (got no idea who your "quoting" there) but so while I am dissappointed with what passes for progress, you won't catch me carrying signs out in front of anything in Tulsa again - except maybe an Anti-Bimbo rally.
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Rico
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« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2007, 09:50:22 pm »

won't catch me carrying signs out in front of anything in Tulsa again - except maybe an Anti-Bimbo rally.

^jdb

Gentlemen it is now time for a short pause to recharge...........





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jdb
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« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2007, 06:36:26 am »

Have sign will travel.

"Forget the Whales - Save the Bimbos!" - jdb
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