Why do we "need" a 41st Street Bridge?

[Kenosha]

quote:Um, wrong.

As a resident of Red Fork, I can tell you that a highway isn't necessary to get to Tulsa Hills. You can get to 81st Street from 33rd West Avenue or from Union Avenue, both which bring you a short distance from the development.

U.S. 75 is an option, but I can tell you firsthand that most residents in Carbondale and Red Fork aren't going to use it. I certainly won't.

Why fight the inevitable traffic snarl around the U.S. 75 interchange when there are at least two lesser-known local roads that bring you close to the development?

Fair enough RWarn...

you would be qualified to answer this question then...1) is there a g. store being built at Tulsa Hills? and 2) given the option would you prefer to shop on Peoria or at Tulsa Hills?

[Kenosha]

quote:
And to live on the west side means that you use 75, a lot.

I like the Crystal City area, my Kids love Ollie's but if you think that a bridge at 41st is going to resurect the area, you don't know what the problems there are. Start with declining population and poor schools. There's plenty of retail there now, it's just empty due to the area being so poor and the population declining.

Swake... I find it interesing, given what I percieve as your opinions on the subject of urban sprawl, that you would be arguing with me on this issue.

Tulsa Hills is classic big box sprawl...I am suggesting ways to improve our geograhically speaking, center city. Are you opposed to that?

Frankly, I don't think you could have illustrated the need for action in West Tulsa any better than in your above statement. Thanks!

You might want to check with the SW Tulsa Education Initative on your school facts though...not sure they are acurate.

[RecycleMichael]

Red Fork is coming back.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/NewsStory.asp?ID=061213_Ne_A10_CityC10408

I am excited and believe that we won't recognize the area in 15 years. It is going to be a wonderful development opportunity for any investor with vision and patience.

[rwarn17588]

To answer Kenosha's question: If there is a SuperTarget as has been reported at Tulsa Hills, there will be a grocery store, and yes, I will patronize it.

I still like the S&S Market at 61st and 33rd West, and I will patronize it, too. It has a good meat market.

(Don't forget that scores of west-siders go to the Warehouse Market near Union Avenue, too. I wouldn't buy produce there, but it's fine for nonperishables. The nearby Braum's is good for dairy products, too.)

I think Red Fork is actually going to prosper at a moderate level in the coming years. I'm not the only one who thinks this. I've talked to observant longtime residents who think that some gentrification is inevitable. That's because Red Fork has 1) inexpensive housing for small families and DINKs; 2) it's close to three major freeways; 3) it's a just few miles from downtown, Brookside, Cherry Street and Midtown attractions; and 4) crime is almost nonexistent.

As for downtown Red Fork (across from Ollie's), it's already seeing a lot of activity there. An art gallery has opened there. Another storefront is being renovated. And the Main Street program that recently was approved by the City Council is going to improve that historic district a lot.

Main Street will improve Crystal City shopping center, too. But after talking to a few tenants there, the main problem the rents are too high for the limited traffic it sees. Apparently an old guy in south Tulsa owns it, and he gets buyout offers for the property from time to time. I think the best thing that could happen is if someone takes Crystal City off his hands, slashes the rent and woos a few start-up businesses.

Back to topic: As for a 41st Street Bridge, I don't see any pressing need for it. If I want to get to the other side of the river, there are no shortage of options to do so. I usually use 11th, 21st, I-44 and 71st. Four options isn't anything to sneeze at.

[YoungTulsan]

A bridge would bring progress on both sides, but particularly the west Tulsa side.  If you don't live in WT, there's really no reason to visit it for most people.  So all anyone sees of WT is what can be seen from I-44, which isn't very flattering.  Pretty much just a desolate junkyard in many spots.  The 41st and Union area is actually pretty nice, and the vast land of warehouses by 41st and elwood could probably be redeveloped if WT was connected to ET.

The 21st street bridge doesnt bring people to the 41st and Union area because that area is cut off on all sides by I-44, 244/75, and the river.  Southwest Blvd sortof comes near the neighborhood, but other than that, the area is completely inaccessible for traffic leisurely flowing through.  The refinery is a big cause of the cutoff, as are all the highways and mountains in the area.

With the TCC campus on west 41st, a lot of people would use this route instead of taking the interstate.  Even with the widening about to happen, the City of Tulsa still needs to keep doing whatever it can to offload traffic from that busy I-44 corridor.

I think the 41st st bridge would bring development on the west side of the river.  It exists as warehouse land today due to the property values of land completely cut off from the rest of the city.  The 41st bridge would feed life into the area.

[YoungTulsan]

After reading the whole thread, I would like to add, that most of you speaking from west tulsa experience either live, or have specific business there.  Of course the roads in place today get you there.  But there is some fandangling you must do, due to the various disconnects.  To draw random folks to the area, the connection must more or less be mindless.  A mindless idiot driving around looking for something to do would never end up at 41st and elwood unless he was lost.  However unfortunate it is, this is what you are dealing with when trying to "shape" the development of an area.   The average idiot flows around town mathemetically by the conveinience of the access.

Also I'll clarify that I recognize this as a "want" and not a "need".   But instead of saying "that area is awful, why would anyone want to drive there?", you should realize it is in its current state as a RESULT of low driveability.  I couldn't guaruntee you a bridge would fix anything since there is more than one cause here (refineries, highways similar to the inner-dispersal noose) but I view West Tulsa as the greatest area of potential the city has to ease up the exodus to BA, Bixby, and beyond.

[rwarn17588]

YoungTulsan wrote:

With the TCC campus on west 41st, a lot of people would use this route instead of taking the interstate.

<end clip>

Um, no. At least not in its current configuration.

Not unless you somehow fix that jog at the railroad tracks and Southwest Boulevard. To continue west on 41st, you have watch for periodic trains on the tracks, cross three lanes of traffic, go south about 100 feet on Southwest Boulevard, then right onto the 41st Street overpass.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=Tulsa,+OK&ie=UTF8&z=16&ll=36.104942,-96.020186&spn=0.00768,0.021629&om=1&iwloc=addr

Traffic frequently gets backed up at this intersection, especially during rush hour and when Clinton Middle School is letting out. I see no viable way to correct this, either. I suppose a gigantic new overpass could be built, but this would necessitate tearing down the current one and somehow preserving access to Southwest Boulevard. Of course, to accomplish this, you would have to tear down some of those historic buildings in downtown Red Fork or tear down Ollie's.

With all due respect, YoungTulsan, you're advocating something despite the fact it sounds like you haven't even driven in this area.

If Tulsa east-siders attend the west-side TCC, they're going to take I-44 across the river, then take the Gilcrease Expressway that spits everyone out at West 41st Street near Berryhill. From there, you're about 1 1/2 miles from TCC.

That's going to be a heck of a lot faster and convenient than driving an imaginary, contiguous 41st Street, in which you're still going to encounter a thicket of stop signs and slow-moving local traffic.

This 41st Street Bridge sounds good in theory, but the more I think about it, the less necessary and less viable I think it is.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

Red Fork is coming back.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/NewsStory.asp?ID=061213_Ne_A10_CityC10408

I am excited and believe that we won't recognize the area in 15 years. It is going to be a wonderful development opportunity for any investor with vision and patience.

I hope so, there are a lot of great buildings in the area and the hills and trees are great. But I'm in the in the Redfork area kind of often and I don't  feel it. Crystal City seems to worsen by the day and Redfork main st is nearly vacant.

As for schools, a cousin of my wife's spent a semester at Webster a couple of years ago and it was a mess of gangs and very limited class choices.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by YoungTulsan

After reading the whole thread, I would like to add, that most of you speaking from west tulsa experience either live, or have specific business there.  Of course the roads in place today get you there.  But there is some fandangling you must do, due to the various disconnects.  To draw random folks to the area, the connection must more or less be mindless.  A mindless idiot driving around looking for something to do would never end up at 41st and elwood unless he was lost.  However unfortunate it is, this is what you are dealing with when trying to "shape" the development of an area.   The average idiot flows around town mathemetically by the conveinience of the access.

Also I'll clarify that I recognize this as a "want" and not a "need".   But instead of saying "that area is awful, why would anyone want to drive there?", you should realize it is in its current state as a RESULT of low driveability.  I couldn't guaruntee you a bridge would fix anything since there is more than one cause here (refineries, highways similar to the inner-dispersal noose) but I view West Tulsa as the greatest area of potential the city has to ease up the exodus to BA, Bixby, and beyond.

I agree, I am the perfect example of one of those mindless idiots who is constantly wandering around town, exploring, looking for things to photograph, etc.  At the moment, the way the roads are on the west side, a shudder of fear and terror courses through my heart when I think of attempting a "wander around" over there. I remember stumbling across what I think was an old school and a church somewhere over in that area once, there were also some neat little neighborhoods and such.  Would love to find it again. But I am afraid I will get off on some road and end up lord only knows where, trapped on some highway off to okc looking for the next exit 500 miles down the road or downtown Tulsa, or on some lonely road headed to New Mexico. I wont even go into the number of times this has happened, suffice it to say its quite frustrating and does not make for a relaxing drive at all.

 Oh and the number of dead ends on that side of the river is nightmarish, you feel like a rat caught in an impossible maze. You are constantly backing up, turning around, backing up, turning around, go down one road, it dead ends, back up turn around, head down another road that dead ends.  See a road or highway you want to get on, head towards it only to find the road you are on dead ends or veers off in completely the other direction. NOT FUN!

And there are such great areas on that side of town.  Beautiful hills and valleys and so many areas just ripe for development.

41st where it crosses that highway would be good to be fixed somehow.  Either over it or under it or something.  If that is impractical, perhaps some other road addition, reconfiguration, connection, something to make it easy to see and remember how to get to 41st and back.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by YoungTulsan

After reading the whole thread, I would like to add, that most of you speaking from west tulsa experience either live, or have specific business there.  Of course the roads in place today get you there.  But there is some fandangling you must do, due to the various disconnects.  To draw random folks to the area, the connection must more or less be mindless.  A mindless idiot driving around looking for something to do would never end up at 41st and elwood unless he was lost.  However unfortunate it is, this is what you are dealing with when trying to "shape" the development of an area.   The average idiot flows around town mathemetically by the conveinience of the access.

Also I'll clarify that I recognize this as a "want" and not a "need".   But instead of saying "that area is awful, why would anyone want to drive there?", you should realize it is in its current state as a RESULT of low driveability.  I couldn't guaruntee you a bridge would fix anything since there is more than one cause here (refineries, highways similar to the inner-dispersal noose) but I view West Tulsa as the greatest area of potential the city has to ease up the exodus to BA, Bixby, and beyond.

I agree, I am the perfect example of one of those mindless idiots who is constantly wandering around town, exploring, looking for things to photograph, etc.  At the moment, the way the roads are on the west side, a shudder of fear and terror courses through my heart when I think of attempting a "wander around" over there. I remember stumbling across what I think was an old school and a church somewhere over in that area once, there were also some neat little neighborhoods and such.  Would love to find it again. But I am afraid I will get off on some road and end up lord only knows where, trapped on some highway off to okc looking for the next exit 500 miles down the road or downtown Tulsa, or on some lonely road headed to New Mexico. I wont even go into the number of times this has happened, suffice it to say its quite frustrating and does not make for a relaxing drive at all.

 Oh and the number of dead ends on that side of the river is nightmarish, you feel like a rat caught in an impossible maze. You are constantly backing up, turning around, backing up, turning around, go down one road, it dead ends, back up turn around, head down another road that dead ends.  See a road or highway you want to get on, head towards it only to find the road you are on dead ends or veers off in completely the other direction. NOT FUN!

And there are such great areas on that side of town.  Beautiful hills and valleys and so many areas just ripe for development.

41st where it crosses that highway would be good to be fixed somehow.  Either over it or under it or something.  If that is impractical, perhaps some other road addition, reconfiguration, connection, something to make it easy to see and remember how to get to 41st and back.

Sounds like you are dramatically, transportationally challenged! Thousands of Central Tulsa Soccer Club players and family find their way around that area every spring and fall. They know the short cuts, the dead ends etc. The roads in the industrial area from Union west to the river are rudimentary with no curbs and deep ditches on each side. They are crisscrosed with rough rail road crossings and constant heavy truck traffic.

That area is different from the east side of Union. Its hodgepodge designed neighborhoods but I'm sure you would agree that their layout, which follows the topography, lends to its charm. The idea of making it so easy that wandering idiots could find their way around may not be a popular solution to anyone but developers.

Also, YoungTulsan, the area is not so much warehouses as it is industrial manufacturing. That is a different story as they employ folks and have more intense usage of their sites.

[AngieB]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

...
 Oh and the number of dead ends on that side of the river is nightmarish, you feel like a rat caught in an impossible maze. You are constantly backing up, turning around, backing up, turning around, go down one road, it dead ends, back up turn around, head down another road that dead ends.  See a road or highway you want to get on, head towards it only to find the road you are on dead ends or veers off in completely the other direction. NOT FUN!

I believe that this is precisely the reason our crime rate on the westside is so low! The crooks don't know their way around!

[TheArtist]

Hey! You calling me a crook? []

[AngieB]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

Hey! You calling me a crook? []

Oooh! It did kinda sound like that, didn't it?!? Sorry! []

[patric]

...Or how about a toll bridge with billboards:


Agency Cancels Insurer’s Ads for Bridge
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/09/nyregion/09bridge.html

Geico’s gecko won’t be waving to drivers at the George Washington Bridge after all.

In a swift reversal, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey said yesterday that it would halt plans to place billboards and other advertisements from Geico, the big auto insurer, at the bridge’s toll plaza, tollbooths and approach roads.

The turnaround comes less than a week after the Port Authority said it had signed a two-year deal with Geico valued at $3.2 million. The advertisements would have been the first at a bridge operated by the Port Authority, which has been seeking new sources of revenue to offset its rising costs.

But reaction to the ads, some of which would have featured Geico’s signature mascot, a green gecko, came quickly. Preservationists and some local officials criticized the deal, complaining that the displays would have destroyed the aesthetics of the landmark bridge. The mayor of Fort Lee, where the toll plaza is situated, said that the Port Authority might have run afoul of local laws governing the placement of signs.

But other politicians, including the State Senate president, Richard J. Codey, had more practical concerns: They said the Port Authority could have held out for more money.

“You have an incredible number of people going over the bridge,” Mr. Codey said, referring to the 57 million eastbound drivers who cross the span each year. The price, he said, “seemed to be out of whack.”

Mr. Codey said the Port Authority did not tell him about the sponsorship program, which was agreed upon in 2005 while he was governor. He said the details of the bidding process on the Geico contract should have been disclosed earlier.

A spokesman for Gov. Jon S. Corzine said his office planned to review the Port Authority’s sponsorship program because it was approved under the previous administration. And Stephen Sigmund, a Port Authority spokesman, said the authority’s top officials, including the new executive director, Anthony E. Shorris, and the chairman, Anthony Coscia, had discussed over the weekend whether to pull out of the arrangement and made their decision yesterday.

Geico said it would not contest the authority’s decision to pull out of the contract, which was signed in December.

“We’re sorry that they got the push back they got, but we will withdraw,” said Bill Roberts, executive vice president of Geico. “We were concerned that we would be perceived badly. We want to be a good corporate citizen, but any time you do something new, it takes careful consideration.”

Neil M. Cohen, the deputy speaker of the General Assembly, complained that as a regulated insurer, Geico should not have been given “prime advertising assistance by a bistate government agency.”

The advertising plan “was a slippery slope that would have prompted lawsuits, caused embarrassment and driven up costs for the Port Authority in the long run,” Mr. Cohen said in a statement.

One group that is sure to be disappointed is the advertising firms that were expecting to receive $800,000 for their work putting the deal together.

In backing out of the arrangement, the Port Authority said the revenue from the advertisements was not worth the hostility the plan had received.

“We misjudged the negative reaction to this,” Mr. Sigmund said. That reaction, he added, “was becoming a distraction to the agency, which faces big and serious issues over the next decade.”

Despite the criticism, he insisted that the deal was “competitively priced.”

He said that the agency, which currently receives less than $30 million a year in these kinds of arrangements, would continue to look for new advertising and sponsorship as part of its goal of raising $100 million in such revenues.

Still, as New Jersey looks to the sale or lease of some of the state’s assets to ease its financial burden, the loud and swift response to the contract with Geico was emblematic not just of the cumbersome leadership at the Port Authority, an agency with strong political allegiances to the heads of two states, but also of the broader difficulty quasi-public agencies face when trying to privatize the facilities they operate.

Indeed, the storm over the Geico ads may be just a taste of the emerging debate over Governor Corzine’s exploration of whether to sell or lease state assets like the New Jersey Turnpike and the Garden State Parkway.

“If something like this of a small nature could generate such controversy, the highway privatization is sure to as well,” said Martin E. Robins, the director of the Alan M. Voorhees Transportation Center at Rutgers University.

Mr. Robins added that the Port Authority was particularly vulnerable to criticism because the governors of New York and New Jersey hold immense sway at the agency.

“The state governments have a huge amount of influence, and they are not afraid to exercise it,” he said. “The Port Authority is a handy punching bag.”

[MichaelC]

Why does this bridge idea have much to do with Redfork?  Sure 41st jumps on to Southwest Blvd for a short bit, but then it jumps off again heading straight through Redfork, past the "Gilcrease Expressway", to Berryhill, TCC West Campus, some newer expensive houses, Highway 97, Prattville, all the way past Discoveryland.  41st Street is a long stretch of road.

I'm not saying I'm for it, or necessarily against it, just that theArtist is right about 41st Street being a major east-west access road.  If it were completely rebuilt from the River to Berryhill (the road is brand new from Berryhill to Prattville), we might see new uses for places like Crystal City.