A grassroots organization focused on the intelligent and sustainable development, preservation and revitalization of Tulsa.
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
October 01, 2020, 12:09:45 pm
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 12 13   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Tesla's Big F***ing Field  (Read 13682 times)
LandArchPoke
Civic Leader
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 405



« Reply #135 on: July 09, 2020, 03:35:06 pm »

Not on Creek owned land. Certainly not on Creek Nation owned land.

We are in uncharted waters.

Well that comes down to who owns the improvements. You can make the argument of well who has taxing authority now, etc. if that's the question.

If the Creek Nation built the improvements and leased to Tesla, there would likely be no property taxes. If the Creek Nation leased the land, and Tesla built the improvements and own the building (but not the land). Tesla would pay property taxes (to City, Schools, Creeks, whoever). If that's the question of well does the Creek Nation now own every single piece of real property on the designated tribal reservation lands.

From my understanding of the ruling today is this doesn't effect land ownership. This has more to do with who has the authority of policing powers like criminal courts and would effect things like taxing powers, zoning, etc. (which is a completely separate issue to ownership)
« Last Edit: July 09, 2020, 03:38:38 pm by LandArchPoke » Logged
kvanover
Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 7


« Reply #136 on: July 09, 2020, 04:09:15 pm »

From Reuters:

Tribe members who live within the boundaries are now set to become exempt from certain state obligations such as paying state taxes, while certain Native Americans found guilty in state courts may be able to challenge their convictions on jurisdictional grounds. The tribe also may obtain more power to regulate alcohol sales and expand casino gambling.
Logged
swake
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 7881



« Reply #137 on: July 09, 2020, 04:52:45 pm »

Well that comes down to who owns the improvements. You can make the argument of well who has taxing authority now, etc. if that's the question.

If the Creek Nation built the improvements and leased to Tesla, there would likely be no property taxes. If the Creek Nation leased the land, and Tesla built the improvements and own the building (but not the land). Tesla would pay property taxes (to City, Schools, Creeks, whoever). If that's the question of well does the Creek Nation now own every single piece of real property on the designated tribal reservation lands.

From my understanding of the ruling today is this doesn't effect land ownership. This has more to do with who has the authority of policing powers like criminal courts and would effect things like taxing powers, zoning, etc. (which is a completely separate issue to ownership)

If it's on Creek Nation land in the reservation, the state has no jurisdiction or right to tax. The Creek Nation can, but not the state.
Logged
LandArchPoke
Civic Leader
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 405



« Reply #138 on: July 09, 2020, 06:18:14 pm »

If it's on Creek Nation land in the reservation, the state has no jurisdiction or right to tax. The Creek Nation can, but not the state.

We're probably saying the same thing, just different ways. If Tesla is the owner of the building or the land or both - they will pay taxes to someone. If it's to the city, county, schools then we know the tax rate and it's significantly lower than Texas or to the Creek Nation if they decide they want to exercise that policing power. I guess the Creek Nation could decide the property tax rate should be the same as Texas (highly doubtful). I can't imagine the tribes will want to get involved with a lawsuits over that. They've already released statements saying they want to work with the state to resolve issues.

Really, what I foresee happening is they probably impose more sovereign rights for their citizens and shelter them from the criminal system (which is what brought this case up in the first place). They might decide their citizens have the right to not pay property taxes, etc. But largely leave everyone else to what is the status quo. It will allow them to build casino whenever and wherever they want and develop property without going through a ridiculous trust system. They'll probably operate the casino's however they want and will no longer need a gaming compact with the state. So we'll probably see expanded gaming in the state.

To me it seems the fear mongering from the republicans about this is far over blown. You're essentially saying that the Creek Nation will now screw everyone who now resides within their reservation on their land (Kind of like we did to them previously right? That's beside the point though). It would not benefit them financially to do so or their tribal citizens to see the state thrown into property right chaos and the resulting economic chaos. The tribes have been better partners to many cities than our own state legislature on many occasions. 
Logged
patric
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 7571


These Aren't the Droids You're Looking For


« Reply #139 on: July 09, 2020, 06:52:46 pm »

It will allow them to build casino whenever and wherever they want and develop property without going through a ridiculous trust system. They'll probably operate the casino's however they want and will no longer need a gaming compact with the state.

I see a lot more (previously) illegal TV-on-a-stick billboards in our future.
Logged

"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
swake
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 7881



« Reply #140 on: July 09, 2020, 07:31:40 pm »

We're probably saying the same thing, just different ways. If Tesla is the owner of the building or the land or both - they will pay taxes to someone. If it's to the city, county, schools then we know the tax rate and it's significantly lower than Texas or to the Creek Nation if they decide they want to exercise that policing power. I guess the Creek Nation could decide the property tax rate should be the same as Texas (highly doubtful). I can't imagine the tribes will want to get involved with a lawsuits over that. They've already released statements saying they want to work with the state to resolve issues.

Really, what I foresee happening is they probably impose more sovereign rights for their citizens and shelter them from the criminal system (which is what brought this case up in the first place). They might decide their citizens have the right to not pay property taxes, etc. But largely leave everyone else to what is the status quo. It will allow them to build casino whenever and wherever they want and develop property without going through a ridiculous trust system. They'll probably operate the casino's however they want and will no longer need a gaming compact with the state. So we'll probably see expanded gaming in the state.

To me it seems the fear mongering from the republicans about this is far over blown. You're essentially saying that the Creek Nation will now screw everyone who now resides within their reservation on their land (Kind of like we did to them previously right? That's beside the point though). It would not benefit them financially to do so or their tribal citizens to see the state thrown into property right chaos and the resulting economic chaos. The tribes have been better partners to many cities than our own state legislature on many occasions.  

Iím not saying the tribe is trying to screw anyone. My wife and kids are Creek, itís possible my house and wifeís income will not be subject to state taxes. Iím not holding my breath on that. Iím getting my info largely from my daughter, who did a college thesis on a related topic and is a policy analyst with a Native rights group in DC.

The tribe certainly has zero intention of shielding anyone from prosecution. If anything, defendants that end up in tribal or federal court are likely to find the courts MORE harsh, not less. THAT is a problem that will need to be addressed. The Creek Nation did not bring this suit, but did support the restoration of reservation status. They have no interest in this man going free.

I would expect no changes for most people. This should not change the need for gambling compacts, the compacts grant exclusivity for gambling in the state to the tribes in exchange for payments to the state. They are NOT taxes, which confuses most people. The state cannot tax a tribe.

I personally think itís a really interesting idea to GIVE the land to the Creek Nation with the intention of the Nation allowing Tesla to build with zero or very low taxes as an incentive, likely along with generous federal benefits for economic development on tribal lands.  
« Last Edit: July 09, 2020, 07:34:54 pm by swake » Logged
LandArchPoke
Civic Leader
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 405



« Reply #141 on: July 09, 2020, 09:13:20 pm »

Iím not saying the tribe is trying to screw anyone. My wife and kids are Creek, itís possible my house and wifeís income will not be subject to state taxes. Iím not holding my breath on that. Iím getting my info largely from my daughter, who did a college thesis on a related topic and is a policy analyst with a Native rights group in DC.

The tribe certainly has zero intention of shielding anyone from prosecution. If anything, defendants that end up in tribal or federal court are likely to find the courts MORE harsh, not less. THAT is a problem that will need to be addressed. The Creek Nation did not bring this suit, but did support the restoration of reservation status. They have no interest in this man going free.

I would expect no changes for most people. This should not change the need for gambling compacts, the compacts grant exclusivity for gambling in the state to the tribes in exchange for payments to the state. They are NOT taxes, which confuses most people. The state cannot tax a tribe.

I personally think itís a really interesting idea to GIVE the land to the Creek Nation with the intention of the Nation allowing Tesla to build with zero or very low taxes as an incentive, likely along with generous federal benefits for economic development on tribal lands.  


Didn't necessarily mean you were saying the tribe would be out to screw people. Sorry if it came off that way. Meant there's a lot of republican's out there saying that today. Ted Cruz, etc. bemoaning about how the court just gave away half of Oklahoma. Seems like some of the people on here are misinterpreting what this case was really about. It's about policing powers/jurisdiction... has nothing to do with land ownership rights. All land in the Creek Nation will not revert to their ownership today. People saying this are just trying to create fear mongering among people against the tribe. Who in general have been better partners to people in this state than our elected leadership in OKC.

This won't impact Tesla or anyone else in the Tulsa area trying to build or buy anything.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2020, 09:15:47 pm by LandArchPoke » Logged
SXSW
City Father
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4185


WWW
« Reply #142 on: July 09, 2020, 09:38:01 pm »

July 7th is for the County incentives.

July 10th is for ISD property tax incentives (school district which account for usually about 50% or more of people's tax bill in most areas of Texas). This is really the critical one, because  they tax personal property for businesses. So, for Tesla, the tax bill would be astronomical given the specialized equipment needed in the plant. Telsa officials said in the last meeting for the ISD that if this isn't approved they will not build the plant there. The other county incentives are probably just icing on the cake type thing.

Del Valle ISD approved the property tax incentives today.  https://communityimpact.com/austin/southwest-austin-dripping-springs/development/2020/07/09/del-valle-isd-approves-tesla-incentives-paving-way-for-possible-travis-county-agreement/

Travis County should vote next week after punting this week, maybe waiting for the ISD approval.  Not sure what approvals are needed or are already in place for Tulsa, anyone know?  Sounds like we are getting close to a final decision.
Logged

 
AdamsHall
Activist
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 142


« Reply #143 on: July 10, 2020, 09:52:49 am »

Didn't necessarily mean you were saying the tribe would be out to screw people. Sorry if it came off that way. Meant there's a lot of republican's out there saying that today. Ted Cruz, etc. bemoaning about how the court just gave away half of Oklahoma. Seems like some of the people on here are misinterpreting what this case was really about. It's about policing powers/jurisdiction... has nothing to do with land ownership rights. All land in the Creek Nation will not revert to their ownership today. People saying this are just trying to create fear mongering among people against the tribe. Who in general have been better partners to people in this state than our elected leadership in OKC.

This won't impact Tesla or anyone else in the Tulsa area trying to build or buy anything.

I have not followed what the Republicans are saying, but this very definitely has the potential to impact, if not significantly impact, more than police powers.  The immediate problem is the uncertainty that is now present.  Ideally, we get congressional action or enter a compact arrangement soon to clarify jurisdiction.  See the following note from Chief Justice Roberts:

  ďOn top of that, the Court has profoundly destabilized the governance of eastern Oklahoma,Ē Roberts wrote. ďThe decision today creates significant uncertainty for the Stateís continuing authority over any area that touches Indian affairs, ranging from zoning and taxation to family and environmental law.Ē
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 10:14:40 am by AdamsHall » Logged
LandArchPoke
Civic Leader
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 405



« Reply #144 on: July 10, 2020, 11:03:23 am »

I have not followed what the Republicans are saying, but this very definitely has the potential to impact, if not significantly impact, more than police powers.  The immediate problem is the uncertainty that is now present.  Ideally, we get congressional action or enter a compact arrangement soon to clarify jurisdiction.  See the following note from Chief Justice Roberts:

  ďOn top of that, the Court has profoundly destabilized the governance of eastern Oklahoma,Ē Roberts wrote. ďThe decision today creates significant uncertainty for the Stateís continuing authority over any area that touches Indian affairs, ranging from zoning and taxation to family and environmental law.Ē


Zoning, taxation, etc. are all policing powers. So it does create a massive question of who has authority over that in large portions of Oklahoma now. Is it the tribes or is it the city governments? The court decision was directly related to Federal law, but the implications of that spread to more than just that issue.

It does however not make any determinations into land ownership. That is what a lot of people seem to be confusing (including Ted Cruz and others). This is about who has authority over law and jurisdiction issues, not land ownership. If you owned your house yesterday morning, the Creek Nation (etc.) does not now own your house today.

A few people here seemed to be saying well now Tesla would have to buy the land from the Creeks... no, that's not what this case was about. The person who owns the site Tesla is looking at can still sell them the site. Now, down the road... Tesla might have to pay more taxes on the site if the Creek Nation wanted to impose additional property taxes. Given this ruling, they very well could do so. I don't foresee them doing something like this though, I can only imagine how many lawsuits this would create and do the tribes really want to go down lengthy court battles over something like that? Likely not. There will probably be some sort of agreements signed between the tribes and the cities/state that sets out guidelines of who has jurisdiction and authority in things like local, state, federal law, taxation, zoning, etc. 
Logged
AdamsHall
Activist
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 142


« Reply #145 on: July 10, 2020, 01:05:33 pm »

Zoning, taxation, etc. are all policing powers. So it does create a massive question of who has authority over that in large portions of Oklahoma now. Is it the tribes or is it the city governments? The court decision was directly related to Federal law, but the implications of that spread to more than just that issue.

It does however not make any determinations into land ownership. That is what a lot of people seem to be confusing (including Ted Cruz and others). This is about who has authority over law and jurisdiction issues, not land ownership. If you owned your house yesterday morning, the Creek Nation (etc.) does not now own your house today.

A few people here seemed to be saying well now Tesla would have to buy the land from the Creeks... no, that's not what this case was about. The person who owns the site Tesla is looking at can still sell them the site. Now, down the road... Tesla might have to pay more taxes on the site if the Creek Nation wanted to impose additional property taxes. Given this ruling, they very well could do so. I don't foresee them doing something like this though, I can only imagine how many lawsuits this would create and do the tribes really want to go down lengthy court battles over something like that? Likely not. There will probably be some sort of agreements signed between the tribes and the cities/state that sets out guidelines of who has jurisdiction and authority in things like local, state, federal law, taxation, zoning, etc. 

Agreed on the land ownership component.  I believe an attempt by the tribe to tax on lands within the reservation would be the surest way to get this resolved via lawsuit.  So likewise, I doubt that is attempted.  As previously noted, the groups need to find common ground in an agreement.
Logged
Oil Capital
City Father
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1181


WWW
« Reply #146 on: July 10, 2020, 02:57:11 pm »

Besides the fact that this ruling means Native Americans cannot be tried for crimes committed on Native land by the state this shouldn't change anything as far as land ownership, unless I'm missing something.  Most people already understand that living in eastern Oklahoma means also living in sovereign Indian nations but still governed by city/state/federal laws.

Of course, I didn't say anything about land ownership being in question.  But as LandArchPoke said, this creates "a massive question of who has authority. . . "   That is the "wrench" to which I was referring.
Logged

 
tulsabug
Activist
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 87


WWW
« Reply #147 on: July 10, 2020, 04:08:16 pm »

I have not followed what the Republicans are saying...


You're not missing anything.
Logged

 
Laramie
Philanthropist
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 944



« Reply #148 on: July 11, 2020, 07:58:34 am »



Travis County Continues to Mull Economic Incentives for $1 Billion Tesla Gigafactory

Quote
The $1 billion Tesla plant is not a done deal for Austin. Teslaís Founder Elon Musk visited Tulsa, Oklahoma over the fourth of July weekend to look at sites there for the proposed Gigafactory. Oklahoma is making a huge push to recruit Tesla.

http://siliconhillsnews.com/2020/07/07/travis-county-continues-to-mull-economic-incentives-for-1-billion-tesla-gigafactory/

Logged

ďThink for yourself and let others enjoy the privilege of doing so too.Ē ― Voltaire
heironymouspasparagus
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 12693



« Reply #149 on: July 13, 2020, 07:56:21 pm »

You're not missing anything.


Yeah he is.  If you don't know what the forces of evil are doing, you cannot effectively counter them.

Logged

"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

I donít share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 12 13   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

 
  Hosted by TulsaConnect and Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
 

Mission

 

"TulsaNow's Mission is to help Tulsa become the most vibrant, diverse, sustainable and prosperous city of our size. We achieve this by focusing on the development of Tulsa's distinctive identity and economic growth around a dynamic, urban core, complemented by a constellation of livable, thriving communities."
more...

 

Contact

 

2210 S Main St.
Tulsa, OK 74114
(918) 409-2669
info@tulsanow.org