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November 22, 2017, 11:43:52 pm
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Author Topic: Does erasing history cure racism?  (Read 2334 times)
heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2017, 08:35:17 am »



One represents a nation that fought and died to free slaves.




One of those nuances - the south certainly was fighting to keep slavery, as well as the other states rights issues they saw threatened by Lincoln.

But the north fought to keep the Union together and preserve an economic system balance that was greatly threatened if the south left - eliminating slavery was never one of their main goals of the war - didn't become one for several years.  They NEEDED the south to keep sending raw cotton to the mills in the north for their industrial basis...they had little recourse to get it elsewhere.  So, as with other groups, the north industrialists who ran the show saw the need to keep the south effectively in serfdom, while the south needed to keep slaves to be able to maintain their participation in the economy.  There was HUGE resistance to letting the south become industrialized...just another little side effect.

And even taking Andrew Jackson into account, it was the same northern industrialists driving the extermination/genocide of the Native Americans.  So, add that to the balance to the US flag - and it didn't stop at the Civil War.  Bounties paid for Indian scalps didn't end for another 30 years or so.  And the US government continued an official policy of societal genocide of natives and ripping families apart until it was finally outlawed in the mid 1970's!!   Over 100 years later!

So this is how Trump wants to make us "great again"...go back to the "good ole days" when one could just go out with a rifle and a skinning knife - kill some Natives, take their scalps and get paid $5 to boot!!


We are definitely a work in process.  As I have said here before, no nation in the history of the planet has done as much total good as has the US.  AND no nation in the history of the planet had done so much total bad as the US.

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« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2017, 09:00:44 am »

We are definitely a work in process.  As I have said here before, no nation in the history of the planet has done as much total good as has the US.  AND no nation in the history of the planet had done so much total bad as the US.

Your last point is obviously debatable. One of the quotes I see being tossed around of Lee's recently is how he insists slaves were essentially better off here then Africa or elsewhere (paraphrasing). This quote is used to be critical of Lee, but he was right. African's sold into slavery to the East did have it way worse. And they weren't doing a whole lot better where they were at, obviously they were enslaved in Africa. But those that went east, that was some bad news right there.

Our history often makes it difficult to be proud of our country, however I love this country like I love my family. That means I often choose to see the best in them, and this country. And there is a lot of good to see, no doubt.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 09:02:33 am by erfalf » Logged

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patric
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« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2017, 09:35:34 am »

eliminating slavery was never one of their main goals of the war - didn't become one for several years.

Likewise, slavery continued in some northern states years after the end of the CW, and most people dont realize the Emancipation Proclamation was only aimed at "states in rebellion." 
Im also proud our country has stood for freedom and civil rights above others, but have to balance that with the knowledge it, like the White House, was built by slaves.

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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2017, 10:00:08 am »

Your last point is obviously debatable. One of the quotes I see being tossed around of Lee's recently is how he insists slaves were essentially better off here then Africa or elsewhere (paraphrasing). This quote is used to be critical of Lee, but he was right. African's sold into slavery to the East did have it way worse. And they weren't doing a whole lot better where they were at, obviously they were enslaved in Africa. But those that went east, that was some bad news right there.

Our history often makes it difficult to be proud of our country, however I love this country like I love my family. That means I often choose to see the best in them, and this country. And there is a lot of good to see, no doubt.


No it isn't.  It is one of those absolute truths of the world.   Goes to a knowledge and sense of history.  On both extremes, you can find as many examples as you want from other places in the world, and we have one that will Trump it in our history!  (See what I did there...!)

Slaves better off here - yeah, that is also a major theme in Jefferson Davis writing, along with many other apologists/slaveholders at the time.  It was exactly the same method used by the Fake Fox News propaganda cycle today.  The history thing again - Rupert Murdoch and Minions know the history and use it to forward their warped, twisted world view.

I am always proud of this country - BECAUSE....and this is a big one... no matter the evil done, there are always GOOD people working against that evil.!  And sometimes they actually make progress against the enemies of humanity!   Note that word "progress" again... leads to "progressive".  By it's definition making things better.  As opposed to the reactionary extremist right that not just tries to maintain the status quo, but attempts to take us backwards.  Backwards to that time where America can be "great again"...  Tell me all about that one.


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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2017, 10:02:25 am »

Likewise, slavery continued in some northern states years after the end of the CW, and most people dont realize the Emancipation Proclamation was only aimed at "states in rebellion."  
Im also proud our country has stood for freedom and civil rights above others, but have to balance that with the knowledge it, like the White House, was built by slaves.




Wasn't quite years....House ratified the 13th Amendment in 1864.  Senate in Jan, 1865.  Certified and declared adopted in Dec 1865, so technically about 7 months after end of war.

Didn't stop any of the other abominable things going on, but at least it was an attempt at a start.  Gave us one more ideal to try to live up to.  Took another 100 years to get even close to living up to that ideal.  And now, the Minions are trying to take us back by making America "great again"...


« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 10:04:53 am by heironymouspasparagus » Logged

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« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2017, 10:14:27 am »

Likewise, slavery continued in some northern states years after the end of the CW, and most people dont realize the Emancipation Proclamation was only aimed at "states in rebellion."  
Im also proud our country has stood for freedom and civil rights above others, but have to balance that with the knowledge it, like the White House, was built by slaves.



None of the northern states were slave states excepting four border states. Three states; Maryland, which ended slavery on November 1st, 1864, West Virginia, which ended it on February 3rd, 1865 and Missouri, which ended slavery January 11th, 1865 ended slavery during the war. Slavery only continued on after the war in some originally Union controlled areas of Louisiana and Virginia and in Kentucky, all of which ended slavery with the 13th Amendment, which was ratified on December 6th, 1865, seven months after the end of the war on May 9th 1865.  

Ah, missed Delaware. Ended with the 13th as well.
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patric
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« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2017, 10:15:13 am »


Wasn't quite years....House ratified the 13th Amendment in 1864.  Senate in Jan, 1865.  Certified and declared adopted in Dec 1865, so technically about 7 months after end of war.

Didn't stop any of the other abominable things going on, but at least it was an attempt at a start.  Gave us one more ideal to try to live up to.  Took another 100 years to get even close to living up to that ideal.  And now, the Minions are trying to take us back by making America "great again"...




I should point out the slave state of Delaware took its sweet time ratifying the 13th Amendment, and several "states in rebellion" like Missouri and Tennessee voted to abolish slavery before the end of the war.  


Meanwhile, the slope got a lot slipperier:

Maryland State House Removes Statue Of Judge Who Wrote Dred Scott Decision
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/08/18/544407092/maryland-state-house-removes-statue-of-judge-who-wrote-dred-scott-decision
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Conan71
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« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2017, 10:26:30 am »


A very well reasoned Op-Ed.

I also believe the more symbols which are taken down or names which are changed will result in more activism from white supremacist types who will view this as oppression.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2017, 11:07:16 am »



I should point out the slave state of Delaware took its sweet time ratifying the 13th Amendment, and several "states in rebellion" like Missouri and Tennessee voted to abolish slavery before the end of the war.  




Tennessee was always an oddball case.  There really are 3 states rolled up into that one long sucker!  East, Middle, and West.  And the 3 zones were very divided during this time.  It barely seceded, mainly on account of West TN.  East TN was in great part loyalist - not wanting to secede at all.  LOTS of TN's fought in the Union armies.

Many people have somehow interpreted the TN flag as somehow being related to the Confederate flag, but never was and did not derive from any Confederate flag.


Still gotta go to the context of the times - States rights were still a thing that many people actually thought was real and that they believed in it.  The war proved how wrong that was...   This also shows a lot of the state of mind of many people, that considered themselves to be just as much Tennessean or New Yorker as they were US citizens.  Different world than now on many levels.  Now, we seem to mostly identify as "Americans" who also happen to be citizens of some state at any particular time.

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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

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erfalf
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« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2017, 12:08:23 pm »


Tennessee was always an oddball case.  There really are 3 states rolled up into that one long sucker!  East, Middle, and West.  And the 3 zones were very divided during this time.  It barely seceded, mainly on account of West TN.  East TN was in great part loyalist - not wanting to secede at all.  LOTS of TN's fought in the Union armies.

Many people have somehow interpreted the TN flag as somehow being related to the Confederate flag, but never was and did not derive from any Confederate flag.


Still gotta go to the context of the times - States rights were still a thing that many people actually thought was real and that they believed in it.  The war proved how wrong that was...   This also shows a lot of the state of mind of many people, that considered themselves to be just as much Tennessean or New Yorker as they were US citizens.  Different world than now on many levels.  Now, we seem to mostly identify as "Americans" who also happen to be citizens of some state at any particular time.



There were probably still family members that recalled "the union". There were states, and then there was a country. I'm sure many probably viewed their allegiance in that order as well. I still view Lee as a person worth respecting, but one whose allegiance ultimately ended up putting him on the wrong side of history.
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swake
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« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2017, 12:45:18 pm »

There were probably still family members that recalled "the union". There were states, and then there was a country. I'm sure many probably viewed their allegiance in that order as well. I still view Lee as a person worth respecting, but one whose allegiance ultimately ended up putting him on the wrong side of history.

Even aside from his being a traitor and leading an army into a civil war to protect slavery that killed hundreds of thousands, did you read the article I posted about him? How he treated his own slaves? How his men executed all captured black Union soldiers? How any freedmen they caught were sent south into slavery, even if they had never been a slave?

What is there to respect about a man like that?
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2017, 01:12:25 pm »


Bannon is out.   

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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

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« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2017, 01:12:44 pm »

Even aside from his being a traitor and leading an army into a civil war to protect slavery that killed hundreds of thousands, did you read the article I posted about him? How he treated his own slaves? How his men executed all captured black Union soldiers? How any freedmen they caught were sent south into slavery, even if they had never been a slave?

What is there to respect about a man like that?

There are varying accounts when it comes to how he treated his slaves. Historians and biographers have said as much anyway. Since I wasn't there, I have decided to withhold passing judgement, especially considering some of the verifiable things that he has done/said in his life.

He also didn't lead anyone into any war, and for that matter wasn't even the general of the confederate forces at the time the war commenced. And if you want to really parse words, he probably spared the life of many by surrendering, and taking such an active role during reconstruction.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2017, 01:21:02 pm »

Even aside from his being a traitor and leading an army into a civil war to protect slavery that killed hundreds of thousands, did you read the article I posted about him? How he treated his own slaves? How his men executed all captured black Union soldiers? How any freedmen they caught were sent south into slavery, even if they had never been a slave?

What is there to respect about a man like that?


What is there to respect about Grant then, using that logic.  He had slaves.  He worked to kill hundreds of thousands.  He was also President while Indian genocide was going on.

Marias Massacre
Skeleton Cave Massacre
Sappa Creek Massacre
Battle of the Big Hole

Nobody has clean hands.

And we haven't even gotten to Andrew Jackson, who is still on our money!  You gonna start calling for his removal a while, I presume??  Since we are all into "pious mode" right now...!







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« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2017, 01:27:16 pm »


What is there to respect about a man like that?

You found an article that was biased.  Did you ever bother to doublecheck any of their facts?   There were enough inconsistencies and outright errors in the story that you should have been skeptical.  

Put anyone's life under a microscope and you can find things to hold against them.  Not that it matters.
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