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October 20, 2018, 12:31:08 am
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Author Topic: Terence Crutcher  (Read 32071 times)
Vashta Nerada
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« Reply #60 on: September 20, 2016, 07:02:31 pm »

His lawyer showed a blow up pic of the drivers side window. It is up and blood was found on the outside of the window. Tests for PCP have not been concluded. It may be something else. I sure didn't see any action that would have created fear for her life. Unless he was going to break the window, reach in after being tasered, grab a weapon and face off with the officers. I don't see it.

Edit: interesting that Channel 6 continues to report that a vial of PCP was found in the car, even though it is a vial of clear liquid until tests prove otherwise. Then of course there is the chain of possession issue. Where was it found, or was it placed, tox reports on the victim. Minor stuff to Channel 6 I guess.

The Tulsa DA's office has too many cuddly conflicts of interest to be trusted with any aspect of any officer-invilved shooting.  I would also be leery of them overseeing any forensic evidence.
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AquaMan
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« Reply #61 on: September 20, 2016, 07:36:23 pm »

In spite of every effort to make this transparent, this really has a bad smell. No camera footage on the officers car even though the lights were activated. Thought the victim was reaching into the car even though she had closed the doors herself upon arrival after looking around the inside of the car. He had his hands up til he was tasered when his natural physical response got him shot. Later, he is described as acting like he was on some kind of drug, and voila! A vile of clear liquid shows up in the car. Of course, it must be PCP. Whatever. He was never considered innocent.

It seems the guy never had a chance once the police arrived to help.
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Conan71
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« Reply #62 on: September 20, 2016, 07:38:55 pm »

But let's be clear, reaching into a car alone is not enough to justify shooting someone.

Not to you or I, no. 

If you are a cop who has encountered someone who has repeatedly refused your commands, and you have no idea if they are armed or have a weapon in their car, it might be a different issue.  Once everything has been examined from the TPD through the DOJ, I guess we will get an “official” ruling on whether or not it was justified.

I’d like to think I’d have the patience to actually see a weapon in someone’s hand before having to make that split second decision.  I’d like to think the taser would have been sufficient to subdue him, but I’ve not been in that situation and hope to never be.

When I sat for my CCL, my instructor was very clear you never point a weapon at another person unless you intend to pull the trigger.  Never pull the trigger unless you intend to kill that person and are willing to face up to the reality and possible consequences of ending another human’s life.  That drove home the serious responsibility which comes along with the right to self defense.  I have no idea if this same message is communicated to LEO’s.
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"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first” -Ronald Reagan
davideinstein
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« Reply #63 on: September 20, 2016, 08:27:38 pm »

Hands were were up and so was the window. I went to the protest tonight and if I can make it I'll be back tomorrow. This is murder and unacceptable. Put her in jail.

Once that happens, change the culture in your police department. Serve our community better.
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davideinstein
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« Reply #64 on: September 20, 2016, 08:28:38 pm »

In spite of every effort to make this transparent, this really has a bad smell. No camera footage on the officers car even though the lights were activated. Thought the victim was reaching into the car even though she had closed the doors herself upon arrival after looking around the inside of the car. He had his hands up til he was tasered when his natural physical response got him shot. Later, he is described as acting like he was on some kind of drug, and voila! A vile of clear liquid shows up in the car. Of course, it must be PCP. Whatever. He was never considered innocent.

It seems the guy never had a chance once the police arrived to help.

It's not transparent. They aren't taking questions from the media and they are controlling the narrative.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #65 on: September 20, 2016, 09:22:16 pm »

The PCP is just the latest lie they started with last Friday and continue through today.  Just the same ole 'stuff'....
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"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

I don’t share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.
Vashta Nerada
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« Reply #66 on: September 20, 2016, 09:38:51 pm »

The PCP is just the latest lie they started with last Friday and continue through today.  Just the same ole 'stuff'....



"That the misinformation given about the window being down, and him putting his hand in the car, reaching for something is misinformation. And that's what the community wants — transparency."

Police video of the shooting does not show what happened when police first made contact with Crutcher, but Crump said witnesses at the scene were “shocked and outraged that he actually was shot” because they thought he had been complying with officers’ orders.

Referencing initial reports indicating that officers thought Crutcher was possibly reaching for a weapon inside his vehicle before he was Tasered and then shot, Attorney David Riggs said officials have now stated that Shelby had already secured the driver's side of his vehicle.

"If that’s true, she knew there was no gun in the car even if the window had been down," Riggs said.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/courts/crutcher-family-attorneys-allege-misinformation-from-police/article_392556ce-f698-54ed-9db9-fa9736493874.html




A while ago the public was outraged at the cold-blooded shooting of a local pastor by OHP troopers.  The OHP spun it by cherry-picking dashcam video showing an angered pastor menacingly sloshing towards the troopers (but not the minutes of taunting that led up to the confrontation).  The lazy media said "Oh, that explains it all" and went on to more important Hollywood divorce stories.

We should expect the same demonizing from TPD and the unions in this case, as well as the same lazy reporting from cute twenty-somethings just learning how to use a video camera.

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erfalf
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« Reply #67 on: September 21, 2016, 05:59:44 am »

Ok, my two cents after finally viewing the videos (been a busy couple of days):

I think it's pretty clear that the officer never should have discharged her weapon, and for that matter maybe she didn't even mean too. I obviously am speculating but it looks accidental to me. Cops can't make those mistakes though. That does not mean the officer did not commit a crime per our laws. That being said, due process people. We don't string people up on a whim anymore.

Easily the most disturbing thing about the whole situation was the apparent indifference to a man bleeding to death on the pavement. I know it was probably only a minute or two but watching the videos it felt like an eternity. There were multiple officers on site, were they concerned about him attacking or something? Again, is this really protocol? Even the comments requesting EMSA seemed pretty lackadaisical.

And someone earlier mentioned that cars being left in the middle (literally the middle) of the street was normal in North Tulsa. Really? It's not a whole other country or anything for goodness sake.

Hearkening back to Conan's words earlier about getting a CCL, and this is something I have been thinking all week. I have been comparing this situation to not wearing a seat belt. If I chose not to wear a seat belt, that doesn't necessarily condemn me to death, nor do I deserve to die, however I have to live (or die) with the consequences that my life may be out of my hands at the moment, that the actions of another could end my life in the blink of an eye.

I'm not blaming the victim, because he WAS unjustly killed, but before the officer shot him, there were a lot of choices made, choices that ultimately had several officers weapons drawn. I don't know what they were but I'm guessing different choices would not have led to weapons being drawn. I have yet to hear of a police officer shooting when their weapon was still holstered. And it would have to be a lot more than he was a big black person. And again, the choices that the police made could have been unwise too. Maybe they are too jumpy. I just don't know. All speculation.

Or is that just the mentality of cops when in North Tulsa? Admittedly I do not have intimate knowledge of the workings of North Tulsa, even less so the workings of police altercations in North Tulsa. Do a higher proportion result in drawn weapons? Do police officers act differently in certain parts of town, certain parts of North Tulsa? If so, is it justifiable, or are we still working off of old realities? Big questions, difficult answers. And sometimes the answers are difficult because they are not what we want them to be (not that it is necessarily the case here, but it can be sometimes).
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #68 on: September 21, 2016, 07:59:47 am »



I think it's pretty clear that the officer never should have discharged her weapon, and for that matter maybe she didn't even mean too. I obviously am speculating but it looks accidental to me. Cops can't make those mistakes though. That does not mean the officer did not commit a crime per our laws. That being said, due process people. We don't string people up on a whim anymore.

Easily the most disturbing thing about the whole situation was the apparent indifference to a man bleeding to death on the pavement. I know it was probably only a minute or two but watching the videos it felt like an eternity. There were multiple officers on site, were they concerned about him attacking or something? Again, is this really protocol? Even the comments requesting EMSA seemed pretty lackadaisical.

And someone earlier mentioned that cars being left in the middle (literally the middle) of the street was normal in North Tulsa. Really? It's not a whole other country or anything for goodness sake.

Hearkening back to Conan's words earlier about getting a CCL, and this is something I have been thinking all week. I have been comparing this situation to not wearing a seat belt. If I chose not to wear a seat belt, that doesn't necessarily condemn me to death, nor do I deserve to die, however I have to live (or die) with the consequences that my life may be out of my hands at the moment, that the actions of another could end my life in the blink of an eye.

I'm not blaming the victim, because he WAS unjustly killed, but before the officer shot him, there were a lot of choices made, choices that ultimately had several officers weapons drawn. I don't know what they were but I'm guessing different choices would not have led to weapons being drawn. I have yet to hear of a police officer shooting when their weapon was still holstered. And it would have to be a lot more than he was a big black person. And again, the choices that the police made could have been unwise too. Maybe they are too jumpy. I just don't know. All speculation.

Or is that just the mentality of cops when in North Tulsa? Admittedly I do not have intimate knowledge of the workings of North Tulsa, even less so the workings of police altercations in North Tulsa. Do a higher proportion result in drawn weapons? Do police officers act differently in certain parts of town, certain parts of North Tulsa? If so, is it justifiable, or are we still working off of old realities? Big questions, difficult answers. And sometimes the answers are difficult because they are not what we want them to be (not that it is necessarily the case here, but it can be sometimes).



Paragraph by paragraph...not intending to be dismissive of your comments, but have some response.

First;  Yeah, we do.  Well, maybe not quite a whim, but for way too casual an excuse, people get dead.

Second;  Heinous!!  They just stood around - a long ways away - waiting for him to die, so they could get the Fire Dept to come hose off the road.  Probably talking important stuff like where to go for donuts that time of day...or how to plant some evidence to make him look like a bad guy.

Third;  Yeah, it kinda is a whole other country.  I and friends lived at 36th N near Lewis in the 60's/70's.  Still have family members - north Harvard, near Pine.  One lived in Apache Manor - Cabrini Green in Tulsa.  Even white folks are looked at differently and treated differently in that area (applies to paragraph 6).  As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be....world without end,...Amen,...Amen!

Fourth;  I got nothing....

Fifth;  That paragraph is really kind of passive aggressive offensive - and I don't blame you personally for that, it is a product of a different life experience.  Says he didn't deserve to be shot, but maybe he did something that got him shot that we don't know about...   We have way to many examples of people doing EXACTLY what they are told and still being shot.  There was a guy at a car wash a couple years ago who was getting his drivers license - told the cop it was in the car, then got shot just for opening car door to get it.

And then there was this - autistic man caregiver laying on the ground with arms up, trying to talk to the cops - shot anyway;
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article90905442.html


Sixth;  Tough to say specifically about Tulsa as a stand alone entity - I suspect it is the same - but we do know that overall on a nationwide basis, blacks are treated very differently in virtually every instance of police contact.  This follows through to the court system, incarceration, and parole opportunities.  This is not conjecture or just an opinion - it is a fact.

And even more, we know for another fact that de facto segregation is a huge problem that directly leads, like day follows night, that every aspect of life in America is affected.  From 1972 until 1988, there was 'forced busing' in this country.  One of the obvious, incontrovertible FACTS of that event was that when blacks from less privileged areas were sent to white suburban schools, the gap in performance was cut in half over those years.  Black kids performing at grade level in their home schools were over 40% behind white kids in their home schools.  By 1988, that was cut to 17%.  In one generation.  At the end, the black kids overwhelming returned to substandard schools, with substandard facilities, substandard resources, and the worst teachers.  Gee....no wonder the net effect was a regression back to previous performance levels.  And worse.

Some of the biggest problems we face as a society are directly and verifiably traceable to the huge differences in educational opportunities afforded our kids.  One of the guys I work with lived this just in the last 3 years - he was living in a little gerrymandered Norman, OK school district of mostly lower economic class housing.  His neighborhood was much more upscale, but had been brought into the district to gain a little extra tax money boost.  But the school couldn't accommodate ANY type of special needs student (Asperberger's), so they literally sold their house - bought one across the street - less than 1/2 mile away - just to get into a 'better' school district that did have the resources to work with and help their kid.  Now, consider the HUGE differences that exist between even the "poor area" of Norman, OK, and some true inner city school, like maybe Chicago, Detroit, Philly, Atlanta (I have been to a couple of their elementary schools - one of the contractor guys I was working with got shot that day in the elementary school parking lot!  Survived, luckily.  That's a whole other 'adventure' story!)  It's no wonder we have inner city problems.

Yeah, kind of a drift... the problems are not easy and certainly are not being adequately addressed anywhere in the nation.









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"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

I don’t share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.
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« Reply #69 on: September 21, 2016, 09:46:30 am »

I’d like to think I’d have the patience to actually see a weapon in someone’s hand before having to make that split second decision.  I’d like to think the taser would have been sufficient to subdue him, but I’ve not been in that situation and hope to never be.

If Mr. Crutcher was caught in your kitchen at 3 AM and you demanded to see his hands, and his response was to walk away with his hands up and then do something that you thought was a threat... well, my expectations for your actions are vastly different.  Even if it turned out you were wrong, you had reasons to believe he was a threat. You had a reason to be jumpy. You aren't a trained professional who has such encounters as a profession. You were forced into that situation in your own home and the result may be that one private citizen kills another.

The Officer is the pinnacle of governmental power over the average citizen. They literally have the power of life and death in their hands day in and day out. In many situation, they are responsible for upholding the Constitution. My expectations are higher, they have to be higher, because we are talking about governmental authority over everyone.

Which is why we have a professional police force that is well paid, well educated, and well trained. That's why there is so much respect and why we give them so much power. That's why we expect them to perform at a high level. It's a tough job that must be performed at a high level. When ti isn't, someones rights are violated and the community loses trust in the government.
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patric
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« Reply #70 on: September 21, 2016, 10:33:43 am »


Which is why we have a professional police force that is well paid, well educated, and well trained. That's why there is so much respect and why we give them so much power. That's why we expect them to perform at a high level. It's a tough job that must be performed at a high level. When ti isn't, someones rights are violated and the community loses trust in the government.

When you have a former Tulsa police chief stand with the protestors and lambast the current leadership, that lends cred to the assertion that things have deteriorated.

As for cred, suppressing Shelby's dashcam video to prop up a weak and over-used narrative would only hurt them in the long run.
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AquaMan
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« Reply #71 on: September 21, 2016, 10:38:27 am »


And someone earlier mentioned that cars being left in the middle (literally the middle) of the street was normal in North Tulsa. Really? It's not a whole other country or anything for goodness sake.

Or is that just the mentality of cops when in North Tulsa? Admittedly I do not have intimate knowledge of the workings of North Tulsa, even less so the workings of police altercations in North Tulsa. Do a higher proportion result in drawn weapons? Do police officers act differently in certain parts of town, certain parts of North Tulsa? If so, is it justifiable, or are we still working off of old realities?

That was me. I spent much of the last 4 years North of Admiral picking up and dropping off kids to schools and activities. I observed, I interacted, I learned, I enjoyed and I cried. It is more of a small town, especially the farther north and West you go. Its all about family there and most everyone knows each other with just a few degrees of separation. In South Tulsa when your late model car poops out you call AAA, you call a cab or Uber. In north Tulsa you pull your weekly paid for, shiny, barely making it, almost repossessed vehicle  over to the curb if you can and call your cousin/uncle/brother to come give you some help. Its no big deal unless you leave it overnight then it gets stripped or stolen. Same thing really in West Tulsa. I was always simply blown away by how much they accomplish with so little understanding or support from mainstream Tulsa. The charities, churches and government are much more central to their lives than the rest of us imo.

The cops over there seem less uptight than the rest of the city. Part of that is these people are their cousins, uncles, brothers and church deacons or they've been working that area for some time. That is what surprised me about this incident was the nervousness of the cops involved. I wonder if they came from North division.

And, btw, I am an old, hairy, white guy and they mostly treated me with the same respect I offered them. After all, I had their children in my possession! Went to the Central/McClain tailgate party a few weeks ago and was one of maybe a dozen non black attendees. They offered food, conversation and laughter. And when they didn't, it didn't phase me anymore than when I'm ignored at a south Tulsa restaurant.
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AquaMan
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« Reply #72 on: September 21, 2016, 12:16:20 pm »

When you have a former Tulsa police chief stand with the protestors and lambast the current leadership, that lends cred to the assertion that things have deteriorated.

As for cred, suppressing Shelby's dashcam video to prop up a weak and over-used narrative would only hurt them in the long run.

What is the news on Shelby's dashcam? Are they still saying it wasn't activated even though the lights were on?
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« Reply #73 on: September 21, 2016, 12:36:33 pm »

What is the news on Shelby's dashcam? Are they still saying it wasn't activated even though the lights were on?

Yes. Every official who has discussed it and every report I have heard on it says the same thing. Tulsa police emergency system has a three toggle system:

0 = off
1 = rear lights (direction lights)
2 = overhead lights and camera
3 = all lights, siren, and camera

She parked and put her car in #1. I suppose that's not unusual for a routine stop when an officer thinks they may just be pushing a vehicle to the side of the road or blocking traffic. I have no reason to doubt that's how the system actual works, I haven't heard a credible source dispute it either. Clearly, it would be a stupid lie it that wasn't how the system works. Unfortunately, it may be impossible to disprove the theory that the video was destroyed.


https://www.readfrontier.com/spotlight/police-promise-achieve-justice-investigate-continues-death-terence-crutcher/
Tulsa World reports the same
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patric
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« Reply #74 on: September 21, 2016, 04:17:12 pm »

Yes. Every official who has discussed it and every report I have heard on it says the same thing. Tulsa police emergency system has a three toggle system:

0 = off
1 = rear lights (direction lights)
2 = overhead lights and camera
3 = all lights, siren, and camera

She parked and put her car in #1. I suppose that's not unusual for a routine stop when an officer thinks they may just be pushing a vehicle to the side of the road or blocking traffic. I have no reason to doubt that's how the system actual works, I haven't heard a credible source dispute it either. Clearly, it would be a stupid lie it that wasn't how the system works. Unfortunately, it may be impossible to disprove the theory that the video was destroyed.

https://www.readfrontier.com/spotlight/police-promise-achieve-justice-investigate-continues-death-terence-crutcher/
Tulsa World reports the same

Looking at the helicopter video, the light bar is flashing in all directions, which would have activated the camera.
"Direction Lights"  are sequentially-flashing signals to tell traffic which direction to divert to.  That wasnt what the other videos show Shelby using, so you're back to square one.
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