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November 20, 2017, 01:23:37 pm
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Author Topic: Terence Crutcher  (Read 15850 times)
heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2016, 09:10:21 am »


Then the fat, white, middle aged guy in your office says something stupid like, "he should have complied". And it leaves you speechless.



I got 4 of them around me.  One even said, 'well, it still isn't Chicago where 500 blacks have been killed by other blacks...'

As if that has anything to do with this, or Tulsa.  There is very little hope for Oklahoma.

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« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2016, 09:25:46 am »

The videos have not been pulled.  They may have dropped from the Vimeo account linked earlier, but they are available here still:

http://www.tulsaworldtv.com/Graphic-Warning-The-complete-unedited-view-of-Terence-Crutchers-death-31413336?playlistId=15318

This is something which stumps me:

-Cop(s) pass stalled car which is basically in the middle of the road, ostensibly someone radios in there is a motorist in need of assistance.

-Officer Shelby shows up and the first of the video we see from the helicopter and Turnbough’s unit is Crutcher with his hands in the air ostensibly being marched back to his vehicle.  Shelby is first shown in the helicopter video coming from the right rear of her unit, gun drawn and pointed at Crutcher.

-On video at least, we see  all this has happened in a mere matter of moments, less than a minute.  But what happened prior to that final minute before Crutcher was shot?  Why was Shelby’s weapon drawn on the passenger side of her vehicle in the first place?  She is first shown at about the right rear quarter panel of her car.  What threat did a motorist of a stalled car represent to the first officer on the scene?  We soon realize she obviously had called for backup...lots of it.  The helicopter video shows Turnbough’s unit and several others not far behind rushing to the scene moments before the shooting.  Others responded from the west fairly quickly.  Why such a big response?  

-In that time-frame why was the police helicopter dispatched to this scene, or had they just left the airpark west of there, they heard radio chatter and realized it was less than a few miles down the road?  The released video from the helicopter starts just south and west of Mohawk Blvd. & Lewis, a few blocks from the scene.

-This being worthy of the of a police air unit is what I still cannot figure out unless it was just cosmic timing which put air support in the area as this unfolded. I’m assuming the helicopters are still based out of the old Downtown Airpark which is less than three miles west of the scene of Crutcher’s shooting.  

-I’m further stumped why none of the responding officers offer any aid to Crutcher as he lays in the ground.  Judging by the blood spatter on his SUV and on his shirt, there likely wasn’t much they could do at that point since Shelby ten-ringed him, but they just left him laying there while it appears officers go around to clear the right side of the vehicle.  Is that policy?  Why were they worried there was someone else in the vehicle who was a threat?

-Perhaps the camera in Shelby’s unit will reveal how this went terribly wrong so quickly.  Clearly there could have been more restraint shown by officers Turnbough and Shelby.  But, what we still don’t know is why was Crutcher perceived as such a serious threat to Shelby in the first place?  What was said, what were his actions which we have not seen nor heard prior to the two videos released thus far?

One scenario which has played through my head is when something goes wrong with Crutcher’s car, out of frustration he gets out of the car and walks off to the side of the road to take a leak and call a friend for help.  He gets wound up and is waiving his arms and talking loudly out of frustration.  Or he could have been doing that anyhow, not on his phone, just venting. The cop pulls up and automatically assumes he’s on PCP or drunk and starts yelling commands which freaks him out. I know I’ve been known to go off when something unfortunate and ill-timed happens to me, maybe not to the level of looking like I was on drugs or drunk, but you get the point.

It is easy to judge someone else’s job when we have not been in the same high stress situation.  I’m not picking sides here, but I’d like to know what happened to create the response of at least four or five back up units PLUS air support within minutes.  This in itself seems highly unusual but I’m not a cop and I’m not certain how these things work.  I am fairly sure a simple DUI stop or mobile meth lab doesn’t warrant this sort of response.


This shows Chief Jordan saying they will NOT cover anything up at 2:00.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/tulsa-police-release-dashcam-video-fatal-shooting-124825150.html


And lots of commentary about what is involved in gathering all the video and compiling (editing!) for release.  Some questions immediately arise....

- Where is the video from Shelby's car?  Especially for the minutes leading up to this!  Would not have taken 10 minutes more than retrieving the videos already released.

- Where is the audio from her car?  Again, especially for the minutes before what they are showing so far.


Your scenario is probably more typical than not - breakdowns like that are frustrating and I see many people go through gyrations after that type of event just as an adrenaline 'release' mechanism.  Ranting and raving about one's stupid car is not cause for the death penalty.


Already, editing and selective visibility has occurred.  I like what he has made happen so far, but Chief Jordan and his department will have to move quicker and get ahead of this better if any credibility is to be maintained/retained.





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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
DTowner
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« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2016, 09:35:05 am »

I thought these officers were on their way to a call when they came upon Mr. Crutcher and his vehicle in the middle of the street (which would explain why so many officers are on the scene of a disabled vehicle). 

After viewing all the video several times, it seems to me most of the basic facts of the early story released by police are true, but those facts aren’t likely to be sufficient to justify the shooting.  In the helicopter video, it seems clear Mr. Crutcher was not complying with orders.  While he had his hands up, he kept walking back towards his vehicle until he got beside the driver’s side door (I assume they were telling him to stop as the police would not want him moving around, particularly heading back towards his vehicle).  When he gets beside the door, he appears to at least turn towards the door, but I cannot tell if he actually reaches inside the car.  Obviously, that split second and what he did or did not do is critical.

While I cannot tell what happened in the split second he was by the driver’s side door, the fact that one officer deployed a taser instead of his gun is not helpful to the shooter.  The running commentary in the helicopter is also not helpful to the shooter (made even worse if that was her husband), when he says something to the effect that “it looks like this guy is about to be tased,” which indicates Crutcher did not appear to be engaged in threatening behavior.

It is not to excuse any police misconduct, but it is much easier for me to draw this conclusion from the comfort of my chair watching my computer screen.  Contrary to some posters, however, I do not think this issue will get swept under the rug and nothing much will happen.  Rightly or wrongly, in a post-Ferguson environment, I think it is actually more likely that the officer will get charged under these circumstances. 

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swake
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« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2016, 09:53:25 am »


This shows Chief Jordan saying they will NOT cover anything up at 2:00.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/tulsa-police-release-dashcam-video-fatal-shooting-124825150.html


And lots of commentary about what is involved in gathering all the video and compiling (editing!) for release.  Some questions immediately arise....

- Where is the video from Shelby's car?  Especially for the minutes leading up to this!  Would not have taken 10 minutes more than retrieving the videos already released.

- Where is the audio from her car?  Again, especially for the minutes before what they are showing so far.


Your scenario is probably more typical than not - breakdowns like that are frustrating and I see many people go through gyrations after that type of event just as an adrenaline 'release' mechanism.  Ranting and raving about one's stupid car is not cause for the death penalty.


Already, editing and selective visibility has occurred.  I like what he has made happen so far, but Chief Jordan and his department will have to move quicker and get ahead of this better if any credibility is to be maintained/retained.







TPD has said her dashcam wasn't on. They still should have audio from her talking to dispatch.
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AquaMan
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« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2016, 09:56:40 am »

Regardless of how hard the decision was under pressure, with distractions, nerves, helicopter, taser etc., she is accountable for her fast trigger. Keep this in perspective. There were what, 8 armed cops, 4 cars, a helicopter...for a broken down car with no indication of any other offense? And his only transgression is he may have failed to comply with instructions?

That isn't enough to shoot the guy. I drive kids to school. If I get nervous, am distracted by traffic, radio dispatch, rowdy kids, and run over one of them, I am accountable for that mistake no matter how well intentioned and will get sued and probably jailed. Her training failed her. Cut to the chase. Training is the problem.
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Conan71
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« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2016, 10:18:03 am »

According to CNN, there were two 911 calls reporting a disabled vehicle blocking the road which certainly opens the door for questioning Crutcher’s mental state.  So at the very least, he’s acting a bit erratic or extremely agitated for one reason or another.  That still doesn’t arise to justifying being shot.  Shelby’s dash cam not being on is an unfortunate development though.  For one it could help better explain what was going on as the officer arrived, but it would also help quell speculation of a cover-up.

As far as demands for swift justice and demands for charges to be filed “today” that’s not exactly how the system works, even when it’s not an officer who is the suspect in a homicide investigation.  Even though it appears Officer Shelby violated Mr. Crutcher’s right to due process, it does not negate her right to it either. (CF feel free to correct here.)

Quote
Sometime after 7:30 p.m. September 16, dispatchers received two 911 calls. The first call came from a woman who said an abandoned vehicle was blocking a road.

"Somebody left their vehicle running in the middle of the street with their doors wide open," the caller said. "The doors are open, the vehicle is still running. It's an SUV. It's in the middle of the street, it's blocking traffic.”

The woman also told the 911 operator that "the guy was running from [the vehicle]" after explaining to her it was going to "blow up.”

Shelby, who is white, was headed to a domestic violence call when she arrived first at the scene of Crutcher's stalled vehicle. Shelby told the dispatcher that "she's not having cooperation" from Crutcher, according to Chief Jordan at a Monday news conference. The police chief declined to offer more information regarding the lack of cooperation Shelby faced.

When Shelby arrived, Crutcher was on the side of the road, away from his vehicle. He then approached Shelby, police said.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/20/us/oklahoma-tulsa-police-shooting/
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AquaMan
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« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2016, 10:28:24 am »

We paid for the dash cams. Lots of cops feel they are intrusive and resent the big brother attitude. But they are there for their own defense, not as a weapon. Do your job as trained and you have no need to worry. I have eight cameras and a hard drive on my bus and people can monitor me real time as I drive. Its my only defense against scams and liars. But if I put a coffee cup over the camera....

I also want to say I've spent a lot of time in North Tulsa over the last few years. A broken down car in the middle of the road is neither uncommon or indicative of poor mental state. Its a poor area with small town atmosphere. People take care of each other. Real different culture than south of 71st where likely AAA picks up your car. Just sayin'...
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swake
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« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2016, 10:34:50 am »

We paid for the dash cams. Lots of cops feel they are intrusive and resent the big brother attitude. But they are there for their own defense, not as a weapon. Do your job as trained and you have no need to worry. I have eight cameras and a hard drive on my bus and people can monitor me real time as I drive. Its my only defense against scams and liars. But if I put a coffee cup over the camera....

I also want to say I've spent a lot of time in North Tulsa over the last few years. A broken down car in the middle of the road is neither uncommon or indicative of poor mental state. Its a poor area with small town atmosphere. People take care of each other. Real different culture than south of 71st where likely AAA picks up your car. Just sayin'...

ABC reported that the dash cam wasn't on because she never activated her lights or siren.
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patric
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« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2016, 10:46:02 am »

Regardless of how hard the decision was under pressure, with distractions, nerves, helicopter,

The helicopter pilot commented that he was going to back away so the people on the ground could hear, but by then the man was shot.

Something that stuck in my mind from the night of the shooting is police telling reporters at the scene that they wouldnt open the crime scene until daylight because "there are no streetlights."


ABC reported that the dash cam wasn't on because she never activated her lights or siren.

Park in the middle of the road and not turn on lights?


CNN is in town today.  No Tay sightings.
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AquaMan
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« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2016, 11:05:58 am »

ABC reported that the dash cam wasn't on because she never activated her lights or siren.

Then that is a failure of the systems use. I can open the loading doors to my bus without the red loading lights activating by turning off the master lights switch and many drivers do that to bypass their student alarm which has to be turned off at the back of the bus. Lazy and unsafe. If these patrol car cameras are only activated with lights or siren on then they have a fundamental problem with protocol. They have set up a by pass for their units to make a stop without being recorded.
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2016, 11:17:23 am »

Witnesses indicate that he was having car trouble and thought it might catch on fire or blow up.

That might explain why he ditched it in the middle of the road, just getting the hell out. That also explains why he would be upset, car just shot craps.  Upset people tend to give attitude to anyone they perceive as causing them grief, so the slightest perceived provocation from Shelby could easily elicit a rude response. BOOM - escalation  ("Can I see your hands sit..." Seriously, I'm just trying to get a ride home, my damn car broke down. ::Stands up:: "Hands now!" Draws gun...).  With a gun drawn he starts walking back to his car for God-knows what (ID, insurance, cell phone, a place he "controls"). Fearing a negative outcome, he puts his hands up in the universal symbol of surrender.

Officers were responding to a separate call in the area, as was the helicopter - my understanding is they were diverted when Shelby radioed in that the stalled motorist wasn't being cooperative. The domestic violence dispute can wait, everyone was needed for the rude stalled motorist apparently.

Shelby's dash cam was not on. Officers control when it is on or off. Many departments mandate it be on any all interactions with the public, Tulsa stated they don't have a policy that covered this interaction so the Officer can do as they please. Toggle one = back lights. Toggle 2 = lights and camera. Toggle 3 lights, siren and camera.


And Conan is right. There is no requirement to immediately arrest the officer. She is a citizen of the United States and entitled to the same due process as anyone else. If this was an altercation between two non-police and she claimed self defense, would she be immediately arrested or would they investigate? Given that she is a low flight risk, strong ties to the community, and a nearly non-existent risk of causing additional crime pending the investigation --- there isn't a huge rush. However, if the evidence would support the arrest of John Q. in the same situation, then she shouldn't get special treatment either. And certainly as time drags, pressure will mount to make a decision (and it should).

There is no evidence that she intended to kill this person or did so maliciously. Rather, it appears she was either jumpy, or misjudged, or flat out made a horrid mistake that very well may rise to the level of negligence (that's not to downplay the matter or dismiss the thought that it would have been different with a well dressed white guy).

This is what Bates was convicted of:

MANSLAUGHTER IN THE SECOND DEGREE - ELEMENTS

No person may be convicted of manslaughter in the second degree unless the State has proved beyond a reasonable doubt each element of the crime. These elements are:

First, the death of a human;

Second, the death was unlawful;

Third, the death was caused by the culpable negligence of the defendant(s).


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AquaMan
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« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2016, 11:25:33 am »

I think the city is culpable if they don't have a policy for having the cameras on with any interaction. Even if they aren't they should remedy this asap.

Adminstrator: there were several posts that weren't transferred when this subject was combined with the other topic. They seemed relevant.
Can we transfer them here?
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patric
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« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2016, 11:33:00 am »


Shelby's dash cam was not on. Officers control when it is on or off. Many departments mandate it be on any all interactions with the public, Tulsa stated they don't have a policy that covered this interaction so the Officer can do as they please. Toggle one = back lights. Toggle 2 = lights and camera. Toggle 3 lights, siren and camera.


Looking back at the videos, the LIGHT BAR IS ON and flashing prior to the arrival of other units, so this is a big discrepancy.

The Panasonic Arbitrator cameras have multiple triggers (airbags, etc) which can be set in software, and lightbar activation is on by default.
They can also be set to record continuously, or motion-activated, which goes thru a lot of memory but these systems can go about 3 days before running out.
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« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2016, 11:55:42 am »

Looking back at the videos, the LIGHT BAR IS ON and flashing prior to the arrival of other units, so this is a big discrepancy.

The Panasonic Arbitrator cameras have multiple triggers (airbags, etc) which can be set in software, and lightbar activation is on by default.
They can also be set to record continuously, or motion-activated, which goes thru a lot of memory but these systems can go about 3 days before running out.

I don't think anything on that video would in some way help Shelby.  I think it would show what lead to the escalation that lead to pulling the gun out.  Also, an idea of the body language of the victim. I think what I've learned from all these shootings is that being black definitely escalates the situation by itself.
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AquaMan
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« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2016, 12:00:36 pm »

And being large and black provides even more anxiety. That's true for non blacks as well though. "Mmmm. Juicy Fruit..."
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