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November 24, 2017, 05:26:33 am
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Author Topic: More Mass shootings  (Read 12177 times)
TeeDub
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« Reply #210 on: October 11, 2017, 08:06:21 pm »


Yeah, those are studies...   Did they do anything to help prevent or lower suicide rates?

(Answer - No.)

It did however spend lots of money giving jobs to researchers!

U.S. Suicide Rate Surges to a 30-Year High

WASHINGTON — Suicide in the United States has surged to the highest levels in nearly 30 years, a federal data analysis has found, with increases in every age group except older adults. The rise was particularly steep for women. It was also substantial among middle-aged Americans, sending a signal of deep anguish from a group whose suicide rates had been stable or falling since the 1950s.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/22/health/us-suicide-rate-surges-to-a-30-year-high.html
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #211 on: October 12, 2017, 08:06:27 am »

Not taking a side on the overall topic, as I think the point is moot as long as the current Supreme Court makeup stands.

But, the arguments here aren't logical:

"Jim Jones killed more than 900 with a pitcher of KoolAid.  We gotta outlaw both pitchers AND KoolAid now."

It wasn't pitchers or KoolAid, it was the cyanide mixed in.  And cyanide is a very controlled substance.  So, that reference would suggest that guns could be more agressively controlled.

"Portugese Priests started the tradition, continued by official US policy, of spreading blankets and smallpox to the First Nations people here.."

Again, not the blankets, but the SmallPox.  And since the SmallPox virus is one of the most controlled viruses in the world, this again would argue for more control of guns.

"Hundreds killed by US Cavalry and "settlers" at Wounded Knee..."

This is a general diatribe against the way the US prosecuted the Indian Wars, and related.  And this is a very valid topic, but is not directly related to individual ownership of guns, particularly given that this discussion is directed mostly to "person to person" deaths.  (i.e., not military or related activities.)





That's why I wrote, "Had to come back to this for a minute...since we are just spewing 'stuff' around."   The argument for gun control is ALL about illogical arguments.  It's the Drunkard's Search.

When suicides and "drug-deal-gone-bad" crime related deaths are dialed out of the calculations - which must be done following your logic here to keep the root causes valid - our death rate from firearms, while still somewhat higher than world averages, are nowhere near death rates from other activities that receive extremely casual concern and attention.  Which leads us back again to the concept of perspective that I have talked about repeatedly - why would society devote so much time/energy/propaganda/lies/distortion to a topic that affects 1 societal unit while simultaneously effectively ignoring topics that affects 10 or 20 or 100 societal units?  (see Laura Bush reference for one...)  It is illogical, disingenuous, mentally deficient, and intellectually dishonest.

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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #212 on: October 12, 2017, 08:35:38 am »

So that's my point, let's study that. End the ban on CDC studies.


Here is a great start on that study - as posted by TeeDub;

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/suiciderate.html


We are 18th in the world for suicide rates.  And looking at those countries one would intuitively wonder how is it better healthcare (of all types - including mental), better standard of living, good societal environment, and good quality of life, would make one want to commit suicide.  So by the argument methodology being advanced in this country - they should outlaw good healthcare.  Cut everyone's wages.  Make society suck more.  Require hovels all around with only the richest enjoying the largest fruits of societies labors.  THEN they can cut their 'despair quotient' leading to suicide, to as low as ours...


Oh, yeah - since they ALL have onerous, prohibitive, gun control laws - as in outright bans, that must be part of it, too!  Get rid of their gun control laws so they can "gun-up" and cut their suicide rates!

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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

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What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
TeeDub
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« Reply #213 on: October 12, 2017, 09:39:50 am »

Oh, yeah - since they ALL have onerous, prohibitive, gun control laws - as in outright bans, that must be part of it, too!  Get rid of their gun control laws so they can "gun-up" and cut their suicide rates!



I know two things:

1.  Shooting is a great way to reduce stresss, and
2.  Nothing can make a person smile like shooting something fully automatic (as long as they are not paying for ammo or being shot back at.)
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #214 on: October 12, 2017, 12:54:06 pm »

I know two things:

1.  Shooting is a great way to reduce stresss, and
2.  Nothing can make a person smile like shooting something fully automatic (as long as they are not paying for ammo or being shot back at.)


Full auto is definitely in the top 25 of fun things to do...  And only top 25 because of that cost.
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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

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What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
rebound
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« Reply #215 on: October 12, 2017, 05:43:16 pm »



That's why I wrote, "Had to come back to this for a minute...since we are just spewing 'stuff' around."   The argument for gun control is ALL about illogical arguments.  It's the Drunkard's Search.

When suicides and "drug-deal-gone-bad" crime related deaths are dialed out of the calculations - which must be done following your logic here to keep the root causes valid - our death rate from firearms, while still somewhat higher than world averages, are nowhere near death rates from other activities that receive extremely casual concern and attention.  Which leads us back again to the concept of perspective that I have talked about repeatedly - why would society devote so much time/energy/propaganda/lies/distortion to a topic that affects 1 societal unit while simultaneously effectively ignoring topics that affects 10 or 20 or 100 societal units?  (see Laura Bush reference for one...)  It is illogical, disingenuous, mentally deficient, and intellectually dishonest.

Gotcha.  Makes more sense.

Also, I'm not arguing for gun control and it's not going to happen, anyway.
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Conan71
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« Reply #216 on: October 12, 2017, 10:31:52 pm »

Gotcha.  Makes more sense.

Also, I'm not arguing for gun control and it's not going to happen, anyway.

It won't happen but it's always topical.

When is the real discussion about mental illness and how we balance civil rights of the criminally insane against that of the public at large going to take place?

I'm pretty impressed with the strides Japan has taken to confront their suicide issue, I think that could be a model for other countries to look at an adapt to their own culture.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #217 on: October 13, 2017, 07:59:04 am »

It won't happen but it's always topical.

When is the real discussion about mental illness and how we balance civil rights of the criminally insane against that of the public at large going to take place?

I'm pretty impressed with the strides Japan has taken to confront their suicide issue, I think that could be a model for other countries to look at an adapt to their own culture.


We won't have a real discussion.  Been waiting for decades (centuries??) and it just doesn't and isn't gonna happen.


The NYT article TeeDub linked was interesting - I knew how many gun suicides we have, but have not paid close attention to all.  42,000 in 2014 is horrendous!!  That is more than drunk drivers kill every year!!  23,000 using other than guns - also more than drunk drivers!  So, yeah, death does indeed find a way.
  


« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 08:01:02 am by heironymouspasparagus » Logged

“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
TeeDub
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« Reply #218 on: October 13, 2017, 08:23:14 am »


The NYT article TeeDub linked was interesting - I knew how many gun suicides we have, but have not paid close attention to all.  42,000 in 2014 is horrendous!!  That is more than drunk drivers kill every year!!  23,000 using other than guns - also more than drunk drivers!  So, yeah, death does indeed find a way.



It makes sense...   We have a well financed and active campaign against drunk drivers.   We don't have any campaign (to speak of) to let people know that when they get down, or life gets them low, that there is a light at the end of the tunnel.   Everyone has times that life gets shitty...  It's realizing that if you push through, it will eventually get better.

Not sure which Monty Python song to insert here...  But there are two that are both poignant.   
Universe Song   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWVshkVF0SY
Always Look on the Bright Side of Life  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJUhlRoBL8M
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #219 on: October 13, 2017, 10:08:37 am »

It makes sense...   We have a well financed and active campaign against drunk drivers.   We don't have any campaign (to speak of) to let people know that when they get down, or life gets them low, that there is a light at the end of the tunnel.   Everyone has times that life gets shitty...  It's realizing that if you push through, it will eventually get better.

Not sure which Monty Python song to insert here...  But there are two that are both poignant.   
Universe Song   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWVshkVF0SY
Always Look on the Bright Side of Life  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJUhlRoBL8M


And the suicide numbers are just the very tiny tip of the iceberg of people dealing with mental issues to one degree or another.  Millions more just keep plodding along with no hope or support structure or any possibility of real help to achieve better quality of life. 

I heard this platitude probably half century ago - when much much younger than today...  suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.  Trite but true.  Way too much of the time, the problem is how to push on through?  Get past that 'temporary' problem.   I have family, friends, and co-workers who experience these issues - and as I look at just the most simplistic symptoms like time away from job and loss of productivity - there is no way it is cheaper for us as a society to just let it ride - better mental health care is not a cost, it's a highly cost effective investment.

Have a guy in the office who is fresh out of Marine Corp - still doing the monthly weekend campouts - who has literally stated on several occasions that people who cannot stand up to the stress "just aren't strong enough"....  He is literally talking about guys, with PTSD, that he has served with who were in combat, while he wasn't... he was busy pushing beans and bullets around the arena of action in logistics.  This "rugged individualist" bullsh$t is one thing that is preventing us from doing anything.  Even though the reality is there is no such guy - we are social animals and without societal support/help/interaction, we are Ted Kuzinsky.  And even he got 'help' from society in the form of stuff (infrastructure) that allowed him to continue with his anarchistic psychosis.  (Could Mick Jagger have been right?  "Anarchy is the only slight glimmer of hope.")


We will continue in our tradition of "fail"....

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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
erfalf
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« Reply #220 on: October 19, 2017, 05:09:17 pm »

Not trying to throw conspiracy mumbo jumbo out there, but does anybody else not think it strange that the only public apperence the security guard is making is on...Ellen? Ellen?

Don't get me wrong, I like Ellen and all, but she's not exactly the first person I think of when I think about some of the most important interviews of our time.

I understand the resort may be trying to save face. All though reasonable people would realize that you can't blame that particular hotel, it very well could have been any of them, it will forever be linked to that event, and not in a favorable way. But Ellen? Just keep him quiet.
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dbacksfan 2.0
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« Reply #221 on: October 19, 2017, 05:20:30 pm »

Not trying to throw conspiracy mumbo jumbo out there, but does anybody else not think it strange that the only public apperence the security guard is making is on...Ellen? Ellen?

Don't get me wrong, I like Ellen and all, but she's not exactly the first person I think of when I think about some of the most important interviews of our time.

I understand the resort may be trying to save face. All though reasonable people would realize that you can't blame that particular hotel, it very well could have been any of them, it will forever be linked to that event, and not in a favorable way. But Ellen? Just keep him quiet.

The security guard works for Mandalay Bay which is owned by MGM. MGM  owns the production company for Ellen's show, and also has her under licence for a number of slot machines and video poker and she preforms at MGM and Mandalay Bay so they are trying to do damage control that doesn't shine a bad light on them.
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patric
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« Reply #222 on: October 25, 2017, 10:36:30 pm »

"The Sheriff's Department has an expectation of its sworn members to take whatever actions are necessary to preserve life wherever they're at," said Tom Dominguez, president of the Association of Orange County Deputy Sheriffs. "If they deny the claims, then the message that they're sending to their peace officers is not to take action when it is certainly warranted."  (Statement from police union after worker's comp claims were rejected for off-duty cops who were partygoers at the Vegas festival)

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/claims-rejected-california-police-injured-las-vegas-50722258

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« Reply #223 on: November 06, 2017, 08:24:43 pm »

Trump Signs Bill Revoking Obama-Era Gun Checks for People With Mental Illnesses
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-signs-bill-revoking-obama-era-gun-checks-people-mental-n727221


A congressional bill could allow veterans deemed mentally incompetent to own guns
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2017/03/22/a-congressional-bill-could-allow-veterans-deemed-mentally-incompetent-to-own-guns
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #224 on: November 07, 2017, 12:43:04 pm »



First, the Air Force (aka Chair Force by the 2 AF vets I know...) failed miserably - literally did not do their job.

Followed by the fact that Trump failed miserably - as he is doing so regularly - by making it just fine for people with mental issues to get guns.

About right for a Sunday morning romp in church....  At least that maggot had the decency to die from his wounds.



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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
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