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November 19, 2017, 01:52:49 pm
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Author Topic: Who is voting for Paul Tay?  (Read 3562 times)
rebound
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« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2016, 11:33:40 am »

There are some bicycle crossing signs around 18th Street, but I'm not aware of any bicycle route signs along that stretch.

But regardless of any designated route signs or sharrows, where is someone on a bike, heading south on Peoria, at 5:15 or any other time, on a Monday or any other day of the week, supposed to ride? 

Peoria is a major arterial street,  and although (per earlier posts) I am an active and avid rider all over Tulsa,  the major arterial streets are not good routes for bikes.  The one recent discussion regarding 31st st West of Peoria being a slight exception.  While it is a mile-line street, once TGP is finished that section will basically be TGP traffic, and so bike lanes could make sense there.

Specific to the guy in question,  he could easily have popped over a block or two West and ridden Woodward South all the way to 31st and on to Brookside. Or if he was going even further South,  continued to move West and keep going South on Cincinnati/Madison/Detroit all the way to 44.   I often ride this  basic route when going to Brookside, or up to Cherry St., or recently (because of TGP construction) just to get to 41st so that I can get over to the river trails.  Granted, it is not as perfectly direct as biking straight up Peoria, but it's a lot more peaceful and much safer.

Per earlier threads talking about riding down on 71st, it is true that in South Tulsa in particular there may not be secondary through-streets, and so it is difficult to get anywhere on bike down there without riding at least some distance on a major arterial.  But in mid-town and on into downtown, there are plenty of non-arterial options that will allow a biker to get virtually anywhere without putting themselves in danger or irritating the heck out of drivers.
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Bamboo World
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« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2016, 12:08:11 pm »


Peoria is a major arterial street,  and although (per earlier posts) I am an active and avid rider all over Tulsa,  the major arterial streets are not good routes for bikes.  The one recent discussion regarding 31st st West of Peoria being a slight exception.  While it is a mile-line street, once TGP is finished that section will basically be TGP traffic, and so bike lanes could make sense there.

Specific to the guy in question,  he could easily have popped over a block or two West and ridden Woodward South all the way to 31st and on to Brookside. Or if he was going even further South,  continued to move West and keep going South on Cincinnati/Madison/Detroit all the way to 44.   I often ride this  basic route when going to Brookside, or up to Cherry St., or recently (because of TGP construction) just to get to 41st so that I can get over to the river trails.  Granted, it is not as perfectly direct as biking straight up Peoria, but it's a lot more peaceful and much safer.

Per earlier threads talking about riding down on 71st, it is true that in South Tulsa in particular there may not be secondary through-streets, and so it is difficult to get anywhere on bike down there without riding at least some distance on a major arterial.  But in mid-town and on into downtown, there are plenty of non-arterial options that will allow a biker to get virtually anywhere without putting themselves in danger or irritating the heck out of drivers.


Peoria is designated as an Urban Arterial and a Multi-Modal street.  The average traffic counts are about 17,000 to 20,000 vehicles per day.  You wouldn't choose Peoria as a bike route, and neither would I.  But maybe the guy you saw riding on Peoria with a smug grin on his face didn't know about alternate routes. 

Every now and then, I see someone riding a bike on an arterial street.  If they're in the right lane, then I usually just slow down, and sometimes pass them on the left.  Not a problem.  A four lane street can handle cars, trucks, bikes, buses, pedestrians (if there are adequate sidewalks).

19th Street is a signed bicycle route.  I think the signs near 18th and 19th on Peoria are to warn motorists about the possibility of bikes crossing Peoria, not to designate Peoria itself as a bike route.
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« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2016, 01:32:19 pm »

Peoria is designated as an Urban Arterial and a Multi-Modal street.  The average traffic counts are about 17,000 to 20,000 vehicles per day.  You wouldn't choose Peoria as a bike route, and neither would I.  But maybe the guy you saw riding on Peoria with a smug grin on his face didn't know about alternate routes. 

Every now and then, I see someone riding a bike on an arterial street.  If they're in the right lane, then I usually just slow down, and sometimes pass them on the left.  Not a problem.  A four lane street can handle cars, trucks, bikes, buses, pedestrians (if there are adequate sidewalks).

19th Street is a signed bicycle route.  I think the signs near 18th and 19th on Peoria are to warn motorists about the possibility of bikes crossing Peoria, not to designate Peoria itself as a bike route.

I'm going to go check out those signs again.  They were, to me at least, confusing as to what they were signifying.   With regard to passing him,  I (and all the other cars.  I have to say everyone in the cars were very polite to the guy.) simply moved over and passed without incident.   However, it did cause a fairly lengthly backup with all the cars trying to get around him, which is one reason I made a point of it being a weekday at 5:15.  Regardless of the street, if it is off-peak and can be ridden without being dangerous and causing undue aggravation to the auto traffic, then rock on.  (71st at about 6:30 am is pretty cool to ride down.  No cars, and you can at least for a brief period have the road to yourself.)  I think though, that regardless of street designation all cyclists should consider the amount of traffic, time of day, etc,  when choosing which major roads in Tulsa to ride.

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davideinstein
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« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2016, 02:37:34 pm »

I'm fully ok with a bike using any city road in Tulsa.
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Bamboo World
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« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2016, 06:16:38 pm »


I'm going to go check out those signs again.  They were, to me at least, confusing as to what they were signifying.


Okay.  I think what they are signifying is a bike route on 19th Street, as I stated in a previous post.  On Peoria, I think what they are signifying is a warning to motorists that bicycles might be crossing in the vicinity of 18th and 19th Streets, as I stated in a previous post.  There's a small offset in 19th at Peoria, so maybe the little arrows confused you.  To me, the signs are not confusing.  They have standardized symbols found throughout the United States.  I see them often on streets that are intended to be used by cars and bikes, which includes Peoria Avenue and nearly every other street in Tulsa.


With regard to passing him,  I (and all the other cars.  I have to say everyone in the cars were very polite to the guy.) simply moved over and passed without incident.


That's good.  It's nice when drivers are polite and pass around people on bikes without incident.


However, it did cause a fairly lengthly backup with all the cars trying to get around him, which is one reason I made a point of it being a weekday at 5:15.


Backups can be expected around 5:15 on weekdays for a variety of reasons because many motorists choose to drive at that time.  The guy grinning smugly probably didn't have to be on Peoria then, but neither did the cars.  My guess is that almost everyone on Peoria at 5:15 on that Monday chose to be on that street then.


Regardless of the street, if it is off-peak and can be ridden without being dangerous and causing undue aggravation to the auto traffic, then rock on.  (71st at about 6:30 am is pretty cool to ride down.  No cars, and you can at least for a brief period have the road to yourself.)  I think though, that regardless of street designation all cyclists should consider the amount of traffic, time of day, etc,  when choosing which major roads in Tulsa to ride.


The slower the traffic, the less dangerous it is for everyone:  for those on bikes, for pedestrians, and for people in cars, too.  And I imagine that the grinning cyclist you saw on Peoria at 5:15 on a Monday afternoon did consider the amount of traffic, the time of day, etc --- and he chose to ride on that street at that time, under those conditions.  That is not when and where you would choose to ride, and it's not when and where I would choose to ride, but he did make that choice.  When I'm driving around Tulsa, it doesn't aggravate me to see bikes on most streets, including Peoria.  I might have to slow down a bit.  So what?  If everyone got out of their cars and rode bikes or walked instead, Tulsa would be a better place.


I'm fully ok with a bike using any city road in Tulsa.


So am I, unless it's a road where bikes are prohibited.
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« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2016, 09:28:42 pm »

Backups can be expected around 5:15 on weekdays for a variety of reasons because many motorists choose to drive at that time.
Probably has something to do with earning a living and Tulsa having no viable public transit option.

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The guy grinning smugly probably didn't have to be on Peoria then, but neither did the cars.  My guess is that almost everyone on Peoria at 5:15 on that Monday chose to be on that street then.
I expect that many of them had that choice influenced by Riverside Drive being closed for some project.  I'm sure the people in the neighborhoods would rather have the bicyclists come through their neighborhood than an endless stream of automobiles.

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The slower the traffic, the less dangerous it is for everyone:  for those on bikes, for pedestrians, and for people in cars, too.  And I imagine that the grinning cyclist you saw on Peoria at 5:15 on a Monday afternoon did consider the amount of traffic, the time of day, etc --- and he chose to ride on that street at that time, under those conditions.  That is not when and where you would choose to ride, and it's not when and where I would choose to ride, but he did make that choice.
And he accepted the possibility of injury due to his choice, much as a bank robber accepts the risk of being shot in his job choice. 

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When I'm driving around Tulsa, it doesn't aggravate me to see bikes on most streets, including Peoria.  I might have to slow down a bit.  So what?
Pokie Okies need to pull over occasionally just out of common courtesy to other citizens.  This applies for motor vehicles as well as bicycles.  I dislike following bicycles even if they can keep up speed.  If they fall, even due to no fault of their own, there may not be anything I can do to not hit them.  I don't like following motorcycles for the same reason.

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If everyone got out of their cars and rode bikes or walked instead, Tulsa would be a better place.
You're stretching a bit there.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2016, 09:41:24 am »


Pokie Okies need to pull over occasionally just out of common courtesy to other citizens.  This applies for motor vehicles as well as bicycles.  I dislike following bicycles even if they can keep up speed.  If they fall, even due to no fault of their own, there may not be anything I can do to not hit them.  I don't like following motorcycles for the same reason.



??    Can't miss a fallen bike??

By definition, you are supposed to maintain a safe distance to the vehicle in front of you for road conditions - written into the book of privileges regarding driving (Drivers manual).  So the first part is true - due to no fault of their own.  But if you or anyone hits them, then it is defined as that persons fault.  That person was going to fast for the road conditions regardless of posted speed limits.  Same thing with motorcycles.



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« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2016, 01:11:20 pm »


Probably has something to do with earning a living and Tulsa having no viable public transit option.


Probably or possibly.  The people in the cars might have been going to or from work.  The guy on the bike might have been going to or from work.


And he accepted the possibility of injury due to his choice, much as a bank robber accepts the risk of being shot in his job choice.


Of course he accepted the possibility of injury due to his choice.  Riding a bike in the right lane on Peoria at 5:15 on a Monday is a legal choice.  I'm not saying it's a wise choice, but in contrast, robbing a bank is both illegal and unwise.

 
Pokie Okies need to pull over occasionally just out of common courtesy to other citizens.  This applies for motor vehicles as well as bicycles.


I agree.  That's common courtesy.  According to rebound, cars were backed up about a block behind the cyclist on Peoria, and the drivers slowed down, then passed him.  Dedicated, protected bike lanes on Tulsa's arterials would be nice and probably would have helped in this particular situation.  But even on streets with bike lanes, drivers need to slow down or stop from time to time, just out of common courtesy to other citizens who are walking, riding bikes, boarding buses, pulling into parking spaces, etc.


When I'm driving around Tulsa, it doesn't aggravate me to see bikes on most streets, including Peoria.  I might have to slow down a bit.  So what?  If everyone got out of their cars and rode bikes or walked instead, Tulsa would be a better place.



You're stretching a bit there.


In my opinion, Tulsa would be better if fewer people drove and more people walked, rode bikes, or rode buses.  Public streets, especially Multi-Modal Urban Arterials, are common property for the common good, meant to be used by a variety of vehicles. 

I don't know how many cyclists rebound sees riding on arterials, but I see almost zero.  For me, it's such a rare occurrence that I can't remember the last time.  So I don't mind spending a few moments to slow down and wait for cyclist every now and then.  Someone on a bicycle has a right to be on the street, as I do in my car.  We need to learn how to share common resources with courtesy for others.


I'm sure the people in the neighborhoods would rather have the bicyclists come through their neighborhood than an endless stream of automobiles.


From around 17th St to Crow Creek, Peoria is in a neighborhood, essentially residential.  It's not really a stretch for me to say that if people would walk or ride bikes instead of drive cars, then Tulsa would be a better place.  It would be quieter and safer, at least ... probably healthier, too.

   
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« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2016, 03:30:14 pm »

Not a bad discussion on all sides.   I'm not going to quote everything and try to respond to all points, but generally I get where Bamboo is coming from.   I also don't see many cyclists on major streets, and that's a good thing because (and this I think would be our main point of argument) I simply don't think that cyclists should ride on certain roads at certain times of day due to the general issues related to car/bicycle interactions.   On the other hand, I completely agree with the assertion that Tulsa would be  better off if more people rode or walked, or took mass transit in some form. As for Peoria, the point about it being basically residential from 17th to Crow Creek  is a good one, and I think I'd support re-striping it to make it a two-lane, with wider single car lanes and bike lanes on each side. But right now, with the conditions on Peoria and a lot of the major streets, I just don't think cyclists should ride on them. 
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RecycleMichael
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« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2016, 12:23:19 pm »

Not a bad discussion on all sides.   

I disagree. You cyclist policy nerds take over too many threads.

It seems appropriate. Many cyclists don't want their own lane; they want to take over one from a car.



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« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2016, 01:09:35 pm »

I prefer "Wonk" instead of Nerd.  Grin    But yeah, I thought of that.  Definite thread drift.  But it was Paul Tay,  and Tulsa Tough, and CBH, and...   OK, OK...   I'll try to keep on topic.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2016, 02:07:54 pm »

I disagree. You cyclist policy nerds take over too many threads.

It seems appropriate. Many cyclists don't want their own lane; they want to take over one from a car.



Do you really mean that??  Seems so out of character for you....


In case yes, as for taking over a lane - state law says they have the right to use the lane to the same degree as a car does.  Just as valid to say the cars want to take over a lane from a bicycle....
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« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2016, 02:42:04 pm »

I disagree. You cyclist policy nerds take over too many threads.

It seems appropriate. Many cyclists don't want their own lane; they want to take over one from a car.





Ummm...it's public property, Michael, free to use provided you do so lawfully.
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« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2016, 02:54:00 pm »

Ummm...it's public property, Michael, free to use provided you do so lawfully.


I think he was using satire...

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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
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