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November 19, 2017, 11:57:34 am
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Author Topic: Why is the City widening Denver Ave?  (Read 3556 times)
PonderInc
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« on: June 02, 2016, 04:34:48 pm »

Just got a heads up from an informed TN forum member that the City is acquiring ROW to widen Denver between 13th and 17th.  What the heck?

Here's some of the info from Improve Our Tulsa website:

Description: Rehabilitation
Denver Ave. from 13th St. to Riverside Dr., 16th Pl. from Denver Ave. to Carson Ave., 17th St. and 18th St. from Boulder Ave. to Cincinnati Ave. and Baltimore Ave. from 15th St. to 18th St.
Budget: $4,855,000.00

That's a crap load of money for a few blocks of rehab.  (Typical street rehabs are about $2.7 million / mile for major arterials.)

Does anyone know what's going on?  This is supposedly still in "design" phase, although it was originally scheduled for construction in 2016.

Click on the highlighted areas of the IOT map to see details:
http://www.improveourtulsa.com/Map/Default.aspx
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LeGenDz
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« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2016, 06:18:54 pm »

No idea but my hunch is probably bc of the increased traffic from riverside (gatheringplace) and the apartments going up right at the end of denver and riverside?  Huh
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davideinstein
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« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2016, 09:12:19 pm »

Hopefully for a protected bike lane.
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2016, 07:28:53 am »

4.5 million for 7 blocks is a ton of money. The traffic count doesn't demand 6 lanes (It's at 19k, parts of Harvard handle 40k with 4 lanes) so I can't imagine that's what it is.

Is this part of the "connection" between downtown and the river? Streets-cape, better sidewalks, bike lanes, bus route?

I hope so.
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Conan71
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« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2016, 08:46:47 am »

4.5 million for 7 blocks is a ton of money. The traffic count doesn't demand 6 lanes (It's at 19k, parts of Harvard handle 40k with 4 lanes) so I can't imagine that's what it is.

Is this part of the "connection" between downtown and the river? Streets-cape, better sidewalks, bike lanes, bus route?

I hope so.

That makes me wonder if they are buying right of way to knock down some of those neat old craftsman homes.  I hope not.
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DowntownDan
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« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2016, 12:40:22 pm »

ROW include sidewalks.  Currently the sidewalk is right on the curb.  It's awkward and feels dangerous.  If they are widening the ROW, hopefully they can move the sidewalks away from the street with a grass and tree barrier, and maybe add a protected bike lane?  That area is sorely underutilized in my opinion.  The new apartments at the corner could be a big driver in making it nicer.
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« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2016, 09:45:32 pm »

That makes me wonder if they are buying right of way to knock down some of those neat old craftsman homes.  I hope not.

All progress is change.  Not all change is progress.
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« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2016, 10:22:32 pm »

ROW include sidewalks.  Currently the sidewalk is right on the curb.  It's awkward and feels dangerous.  If they are widening the ROW, hopefully they can move the sidewalks away from the street with a grass and tree barrier, and maybe add a protected bike lane?  That area is sorely underutilized in my opinion.  The new apartments at the corner could be a big driver in making it nicer.

Check out the sidewalks on Memorial from 101st to 111th.
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Bamboo World
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« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2016, 01:02:56 pm »


ROW include sidewalks.  Currently the sidewalk is right on the curb.  It's awkward and feels dangerous.  If they are widening the ROW, hopefully they can move the sidewalks away from the street with a grass and tree barrier, and maybe add a protected bike lane?  That area is sorely underutilized in my opinion.  The new apartments at the corner could be a big driver in making it nicer.


The City has not taken the opportunity to move sidewalks away from curbs, even where a wider ROW would allow it.  For example, the sidewalk along QT's block between 14th Place and 15th could be ten feet farther from the curb, and the sidewalk along the credit union to the north could be five feet farther from the curb.  But they aren't.


Check out the sidewalks on Memorial from 101st to 111th.


The Memorial ROW is about 100 feet wider than Denver's ROW (about 160 to  170 feet wide on Memorial versus about 60 to 70 feet wide on Denver).  In that extra 100 feet, there are six traffic lanes (two more traffic lanes than Denver, and the lanes on Memorial are a bit wider than the lanes on Denver), plus a center turning lane (about 12 feet wide) and a paved median (about four feet wide).  The overall curb-to-curb paved roadway width on Memorial is about 50 feet wider than Denver's.  

That leaves about 50 extra feet of space for sidewalks in Memorial's ROW, as compared to Denver's.  In many places along Memorial, the grass strips between the curbs and sidewalks are about four feet wide, but there's enough space to have sidewalks much farther from the curbs (about 15 to 35 feet of grass with street trees instead of only four feet of grass).

The curb ramps along Memorial are not well-designed.  At 103rd and Memorial, there are eight curb ramps, directing pedestrians into four crosswalks.  That's how curb ramps and crosswalks ought to be positioned.  However, at nearly every other crosswalk, the curb ramps are angled toward the middle of the intersection, at the widest point for pedestrians to cross.  Overall the sidewalks and crosswalks along Memorial are poorly conceived ... definitely not to be imitated along Denver.

Average traffic counts on that mile of Memorial are about 37,000 to 48,000 vehicles per day.  Speed limits are (or were in March) 45 and 50 mph.

Average traffic counts on Denver are about 20,000 vehicles per day.  Speed limits are 30 and 35 mph.
 
« Last Edit: June 05, 2016, 03:39:26 pm by Bamboo World » Logged
JoeMommaBlake
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« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2016, 03:16:56 pm »

I've got a request in for the details on this.

I've not heard anything about it and am also curious. I'll let you all know what I find out when the info comes in.
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« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2016, 07:23:50 pm »

I've got a request in for the details on this.

I've not heard anything about it and am also curious. I'll let you all know what I find out when the info comes in.


Awesome, thank you sir!
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PonderInc
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« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2016, 02:56:50 pm »

I was chatting with a city engineer recently, and he said "maybe they want to fix that 'kink' in the road."  He didn't know anything about the project, but his instinctive reaction was that a bend in the road was bad.

Here's the "kink"...


This is silly and indicative of decades of traffic engineering philosophy that insists that every local street should be built like a highway.  The highest priority should always be the fast, smooth and unimpeded travel of cars.  Unfortunately, this is exactly opposite of what it takes to build a vibrant city.

The goal of a city street should not be to allow cars to go fast.  The goal should be giving people access to places.  Places designed for people are not found alongside highways.  Places for people offer multiple, diverse destinations along a public way that is comfortable, interesting and safe.  Thus, they are not defined by wide straight lanes, clear horizons, deep setbacks and surface parking lots.  Places should be built to ensure that people on foot or bike feel welcomed.  They certainly should be accessible by car, but that is not the primary function, or the highest priority of a city street.

We need to keep the highway engineers out of our city, because even if we fix our zoning to make desirable places for people, it won't work without corresponding changes to street design.
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« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2016, 03:25:33 pm »

I was chatting with a city engineer recently, and he said "maybe they want to fix that 'kink' in the road."  He didn't know anything about the project, but his instinctive reaction was that a bend in the road was bad.

Here's the "kink"...


This is silly and indicative of decades of traffic engineering philosophy that insists that every local street should be built like a highway.  The highest priority should always be the fast, smooth and unimpeded travel of cars.  Unfortunately, this is exactly opposite of what it takes to build a vibrant city.

The goal of a city street should not be to allow cars to go fast.  The goal should be giving people access to places.  Places designed for people are not found alongside highways.  Places for people offer multiple, diverse destinations along a public way that is comfortable, interesting and safe.  Thus, they are not defined by wide straight lanes, clear horizons, deep setbacks and surface parking lots.  Places should be built to ensure that people on foot or bike feel welcomed.  They certainly should be accessible by car, but that is not the primary function, or the highest priority of a city street.

We need to keep the highway engineers out of our city, because even if we fix our zoning to make desirable places for people, it won't work without corresponding changes to street design.

OMG are you serious?! Someone actually sees that "kink" in the road as something that needs fixing?!  Gawd Almighty. Facepalm, facepalm, facepalm.
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« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2016, 03:52:45 pm »

Just got a heads up from an informed TN forum member that the City is acquiring ROW to widen Denver between 13th and 17th.  What the heck?

Here's some of the info from Improve Our Tulsa website:

Description: Rehabilitation
Denver Ave. from 13th St. to Riverside Dr., 16th Pl. from Denver Ave. to Carson Ave., 17th St. and 18th St. from Boulder Ave. to Cincinnati Ave. and Baltimore Ave. from 15th St. to 18th St.
Budget: $4,855,000.00

That's a crap load of money for a few blocks of rehab.  (Typical street rehabs are about $2.7 million / mile for major arterials.)

Does anyone know what's going on?  This is supposedly still in "design" phase, although it was originally scheduled for construction in 2016.

Click on the highlighted areas of the IOT map to see details:
http://www.improveourtulsa.com/Map/Default.aspx


I have no idea exactly what's going on, but it should be noted that these "few blocks of rehab" actually add up to 1.5 miles. 
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2016, 04:10:43 pm »

I have no idea exactly what's going on, but it should be noted that these "few blocks of rehab" actually add up to 1.5 miles. 

I utterly failed the critical reading test here on the original post and immediately focused on Denver, the rest of the project seeming like a block here or there. But you are spot on. 2,387 meters, or 1.5 miles.

So we are ~20% over the standard budget given above of $2.7mil/mile.
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