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December 04, 2022, 06:45:46 pm
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Author Topic: 11TH ST DEVELOPMENT  (Read 97047 times)
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« Reply #240 on: November 17, 2021, 12:34:07 pm »

Game changing development for the 11th St/Route 66 corridor. 
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DowntownDan
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« Reply #241 on: November 17, 2021, 12:46:52 pm »

I wish they'd do something like that at 14th and Utica, with a hotel added too.
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« Reply #242 on: November 17, 2021, 01:04:25 pm »

I wish they'd do something like that at 14th and Utica, with a hotel added too.

Hotel and office along Utica and residential on Trenton with retail space fronting 15th would be amazing on this site.

Impressed by the design of the 11/Lewis project.  I believe the architect is out of Denver.
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DowntownDan
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« Reply #243 on: November 17, 2021, 01:48:09 pm »

Agree, would like some brownstone or townhouse type residential. Not the ultra modern stuff to the west.
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shavethewhales
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« Reply #244 on: November 17, 2021, 02:10:30 pm »

Love the scale, emphasis on walkability, and the courtyard. Not a big fan of where the architecture ended up. I liked the renderings from this summer when it still had the Route 66 museum better since it had more deco elements and a rooftop terrace. This design is more cookie-cutter modern. I feel like the SE corner now has an industrial vibe that isn't going to age well. Should have kept the art deco element.

Still though, tremendous project that will add a huge shot of vitality to the area. Combined with Hawk Dairy - that's a reasonable population base to support all those little local businesses that MRM is injecting into the area.
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tulsabug
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« Reply #245 on: November 18, 2021, 10:01:48 am »

Love the scale, emphasis on walkability, and the courtyard. Not a big fan of where the architecture ended up. I liked the renderings from this summer when it still had the Route 66 museum better since it had more deco elements and a rooftop terrace. This design is more cookie-cutter modern. I feel like the SE corner now has an industrial vibe that isn't going to age well. Should have kept the art deco element.

Still though, tremendous project that will add a huge shot of vitality to the area. Combined with Hawk Dairy - that's a reasonable population base to support all those little local businesses that MRM is injecting into the area.

I'm glad money is being thrown at 11th street but I wish the result wasn't SoDoSoPa. The little Craftmans on 10th are really gonna bring that Kenny's house vibe now. The Lofts at NoMa... Welcome Home.

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LandArchPoke
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« Reply #246 on: November 18, 2021, 12:05:07 pm »

I'm glad money is being thrown at 11th street but I wish the result wasn't SoDoSoPa. The little Craftmans on 10th are really gonna bring that Kenny's house vibe now. The Lofts at NoMa... Welcome Home.



I get that just about any and all branding is generally pretty dumb but it's relatively effective.

I'm just curious what you think should be done here? It's hard for me to find much wrong with this development. Even if some don't like the industrial architecture style I think we can all agree it's far beyond what you typically see many infill projects (way nicer looking exterior than Cosmopolitan, Enclave in Brookside, etc.). Just drive around places like Dallas and it's stucco, bland, POS mid-rises everywhere. Many of them built on corridors that could have retail and developers just put blank walls or walk up units on prime streets that kill an area of street life. They're building in street level retail here with a pretty nice looking courtyard that they are sacrificing revenue (that could be more apartments) in order to promote a better pedestrian experience on this corner.

It just seems there's never a winnable solution to anything with anyone sometimes. The lot stays vacant and people grumble, lot is proposed for redevelopment and people grumble about 'gentrification', etc. I assume you don't think the empty lot should stay so how does a developer propose something that is a win for you here? I'm not being sarcastic I'm really curious on what people think should happen in places like this - if there's something I'm missing. Some of the sentiment in Tulsa at the moment feels like getting whiplash because people are angry there's not investment in some neighborhoods and as soon as something is proposed it's a full on attack of you're trying to raise property values and improve the area how dare you! lol.
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tulsabug
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« Reply #247 on: November 18, 2021, 01:17:32 pm »

I get that just about any and all branding is generally pretty dumb but it's relatively effective.

I'm just curious what you think should be done here? It's hard for me to find much wrong with this development. Even if some don't like the industrial architecture style I think we can all agree it's far beyond what you typically see many infill projects (way nicer looking exterior than Cosmopolitan, Enclave in Brookside, etc.). Just drive around places like Dallas and it's stucco, bland, POS mid-rises everywhere. Many of them built on corridors that could have retail and developers just put blank walls or walk up units on prime streets that kill an area of street life. They're building in street level retail here with a pretty nice looking courtyard that they are sacrificing revenue (that could be more apartments) in order to promote a better pedestrian experience on this corner.

It just seems there's never a winnable solution to anything with anyone sometimes. The lot stays vacant and people grumble, lot is proposed for redevelopment and people grumble about 'gentrification', etc. I assume you don't think the empty lot should stay so how does a developer propose something that is a win for you here? I'm not being sarcastic I'm really curious on what people think should happen in places like this - if there's something I'm missing. Some of the sentiment in Tulsa at the moment feels like getting whiplash because people are angry there's not investment in some neighborhoods and as soon as something is proposed it's a full on attack of you're trying to raise property values and improve the area how dare you! lol.

Tulsa just needs to stop trying to be Austin or Denver or Portland or anything other than Tulsa. A line of one story standalone zero-lot line retails or something like the retail area on 11th and Rockford would be more appropriate to the area and to Tulsa as a whole. Then the area behind it build some affordable new Craftsman-style houses to match what's on 10th. This way small business owners can OWN their buildings and not rent from some rich a$$hole and people can BUY an actual house (especially one that doesn't cost $500k) instead of also renting apartments from the same rich a$$holes.

South Park nailed it with the SoDoSoPa episode I was referring to. Here's a commercial from the episode about the gentrification lofts that go up next to Kenny's house:

https://youtu.be/eoUtoqeEw8U

I'm all for building up an area but this sort of thing just adds to the growing wealth disparity problem and that's all developers seem to be doing now.

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« Reply #248 on: November 18, 2021, 01:31:51 pm »

Tulsa just needs to stop trying to be Austin or Denver or Portland or anything other than Tulsa. A line of one story standalone zero-lot line retails or something like the retail area on 11th and Rockford would be more appropriate to the area and to Tulsa as a whole. Then the area behind it build some affordable new Craftsman-style houses to match what's on 10th. This way small business owners can OWN their buildings and not rent from some rich a$$hole and people can BUY an actual house (especially one that doesn't cost $500k) instead of also renting apartments from the same rich a$$holes.

South Park nailed it with the SoDoSoPa episode I was referring to. Here's a commercial from the episode about the gentrification lofts that go up next to Kenny's house:

https://youtu.be/eoUtoqeEw8U

I'm all for building up an area but this sort of thing just adds to the growing wealth disparity problem and that's all developers seem to be doing now.



I've seen the episode so I laughed when I read that. I totally get what you're saying. Some of what your complaint about really is more towards the inflexibility of our zoning and building codes. There's also very little control the city has exerted over form of development too. The few times they've tried advocates did a really poor job of supporting it and allowed NIMBYs to mow over the council. Blake tried to get an overlay placed over Midtown that would have done exactly what you are talking about to require context sensitive development throughout Midtown. The form based codes in the Pearl was another missed opportunity.

I do wish we had a lot more small scale infill along commercial corridors. Places where people can have a shop below and apartment above and not just rent it but own the space too. It's nearly impossible to build things like this with our parking requirements, lot requirements, etc. The recent neighborhood infill overlay hopefully will address this for straight up multifamily/residential small scale infill but they did nothing to solve the issues for commercial infill.

So until some of those things are fixed it's hard to fault developers who are only doing what they are allowed to do. Frankly, the city just needs to do away with lot size requirements and parking requirements near downtown and along commercial corridors and you'd see more stuff like this pop up but given the blow back to the recent infill overlay I don't think there's any appetite for something like that from the city for a long time.

We're still going to need developments like these though. The problem if we don't have a mix of some large scale stuff we will run into an affordability crisis (see San Francisco). Since this is on two major arterial streets and will have public parking available for Mother Road and other stuff around it I think long term this is probably the right development for that lot. What will probably happen is most lots along 11th will morph into these types of developments like SoCo/Lamar in Austin and you'll slowly lose what makes those areas special. I just don't think our city leadership is will to see how to avoid that which would be something like a form based code or overlay along 11th that would encourage small scale infill in more places by removing parking requirements, lot requirements, etc. and having some sort of plan that identifies specific areas where large scale infill is appropriate and lots where it's not so you can set expectations for developers and neighbors up front of what is expected.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2021, 01:35:07 pm by LandArchPoke » Logged
tulsabug
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« Reply #249 on: November 19, 2021, 09:26:38 am »

I've seen the episode so I laughed when I read that. I totally get what you're saying. Some of what your complaint about really is more towards the inflexibility of our zoning and building codes. There's also very little control the city has exerted over form of development too. The few times they've tried advocates did a really poor job of supporting it and allowed NIMBYs to mow over the council. Blake tried to get an overlay placed over Midtown that would have done exactly what you are talking about to require context sensitive development throughout Midtown. The form based codes in the Pearl was another missed opportunity.

I do wish we had a lot more small scale infill along commercial corridors. Places where people can have a shop below and apartment above and not just rent it but own the space too. It's nearly impossible to build things like this with our parking requirements, lot requirements, etc. The recent neighborhood infill overlay hopefully will address this for straight up multifamily/residential small scale infill but they did nothing to solve the issues for commercial infill.

So until some of those things are fixed it's hard to fault developers who are only doing what they are allowed to do. Frankly, the city just needs to do away with lot size requirements and parking requirements near downtown and along commercial corridors and you'd see more stuff like this pop up but given the blow back to the recent infill overlay I don't think there's any appetite for something like that from the city for a long time.

We're still going to need developments like these though. The problem if we don't have a mix of some large scale stuff we will run into an affordability crisis (see San Francisco). Since this is on two major arterial streets and will have public parking available for Mother Road and other stuff around it I think long term this is probably the right development for that lot. What will probably happen is most lots along 11th will morph into these types of developments like SoCo/Lamar in Austin and you'll slowly lose what makes those areas special. I just don't think our city leadership is will to see how to avoid that which would be something like a form based code or overlay along 11th that would encourage small scale infill in more places by removing parking requirements, lot requirements, etc. and having some sort of plan that identifies specific areas where large scale infill is appropriate and lots where it's not so you can set expectations for developers and neighbors up front of what is expected.

Ha! Clearly the developer of this either hasn't seen the episode or totally missed the point (like those twits who root for the Emperor in Star Wars).

I understand that the city's incredible lack of vision is the real problem here, due in many ways to our mayor though I won't bash him too bad as I understand he's handicapped having been born without a spine. So I'll drop my larger societal complaint which, admittedly, is a bit much to lay on the shoulders of one little development. That being said the developers still only managed to come up with a crap design that doesn't even remotely fit in  with the aesthetic of 11th street. I would think calling this "North of Market" would push it towards at least echoing the Mother Road building but I guess that was lost on the "architect from Denver" who clearly dragged out his legos for a design idea. And I thought the design of the "Fernweh Shops" was uninspired and out of place - no surprise it's coming from the same group. I'm glad this is happening overall and I agree with all of your points. Your insights into the nuts and bolts of how the bureaucracy of Tulsa zoning works is fascinating and much appreciated. In the end this development is better than an empty concrete lot but it's one massive missed opportunity to really do something special on 11th street and for Tulsa. I really hope the developers don't keep on this path.

Though Cars was a crap film - this is what 11th Street needs to be:



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tulsabug
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« Reply #250 on: November 19, 2021, 09:34:03 am »

As a fun piece of trivia, at the Cars Land in Disneyland these are the gas pumps:

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« Reply #251 on: November 19, 2021, 10:07:13 am »

As a fun piece of trivia, at the Cars Land in Disneyland these are the gas pumps:



"Good old days" when gasoline had tetraETHYLlead to boost the octane rating.  Then came catalytic converters which required no-lead gas.  I don't wish for the lead to come back though.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #252 on: November 19, 2021, 10:47:38 am »

"Good old days" when gasoline had tetraETHYLlead to boost the octane rating.  Then came catalytic converters which required no-lead gas.  I don't wish for the lead to come back though.


That lead is what gave us 2,000 mi oil change intervals, 10,000 mi spark plug replacements, and a lot of other excess maintenance issues.  Which we don't have today.

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« Reply #253 on: April 18, 2022, 08:12:35 am »





NOMA is rising quickly. These photos are already a week old.

No progress started on the development at the old dairy across the street.
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DowntownDan
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« Reply #254 on: April 18, 2022, 02:08:18 pm »

The construction sucks but will be worth it in the end I think. The faster the better and construction on this has seemingly gone pretty quick.
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