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November 21, 2017, 07:59:16 pm
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Author Topic: CVS at 15th and Utica  (Read 30441 times)
Townsend
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« Reply #180 on: May 16, 2016, 03:00:13 pm »

New renderings that will be voted on this Thursday.  Brick looks more authentic and includes "blade" signs.  Still not two functional floors.  Still destroys density to replace with single purpose box store.  Still no entrance at the intersection.  Glass is transparent, no more spandrell glass (rendering doesn't really show all that well but it's in the development description).  Better than the suburbs.  I hope the standard is a bit higher than that though.  Let me know if the link doesn't work.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4Dqzlhdnu6jY3JSa3hzLU9pVW8/view?usp=sharing

Link worked.  Thanks for providing it.

While I'd have to guess at the outcome, it's sad that people would say "well at least it's better" instead of waiting to say "there, the builder has met all the requirements."

If the developer says "you are being to difficult, I'm not going to build there."  So what?  Another developer will, if not tomorrow, then somewhere in the future.  What will it matter if it's not developed in the next year?

The "okay-to-go" should be held until someone comes along with an acceptable build that matches the guidelines.

I'm a Southie but I still drive by these piles of smile that we just say "meh, good enough, I guess."

Don't QT the corner if at all avoidable.
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DowntownDan
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« Reply #181 on: May 19, 2016, 09:03:39 am »

City council will hear it today at 6:00. 
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DowntownDan
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« Reply #182 on: May 20, 2016, 10:50:38 am »

It was approved 5-1 (a quorum was present and with 5 votes, it formally passed anyway).  Here is the final drawing that was approved.  If it actually ends up looking like this, and if they install the streetscaping they've promised, it could turn out to be a decent development even if it falls short of the ideal.  Blake Ewing deserves credit for pressing the developer for a better looking building including the windows on the fake upper level and more genuine warehouse style brick.

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Bamboo World
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« Reply #183 on: May 20, 2016, 01:08:17 pm »

It was approved 5-1 (a quorum was present and with 5 votes, it formally passed anyway).  Here is the final drawing that was approved.  If it actually ends up looking like this, and if they install the streetscaping they've promised, it could turn out to be a decent development even if it falls short of the ideal.  Blake Ewing deserves credit for pressing the developer for a better looking building including the windows on the fake upper level and more genuine warehouse style brick.



The fenestration is hideous, and it looks fake.

The previous version was better.
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Breadburner
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« Reply #184 on: May 20, 2016, 01:41:58 pm »

Gag.....They should all be voted out of office...
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PonderInc
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« Reply #185 on: May 20, 2016, 02:31:57 pm »

Um... Or, you could have this:



Note how many improvements were achieved compared to the "standard" suburban CVS (shown at 21st and Harvard, above).  That's how important the small area plan is--even though it's not a regulatory document, INCOG staff and members of the TMAPC and City Council definitely used the neighborhood vision to force the developer to make significant modifications/improvements.

I think we just got the best CVS in the region.  Find me a better example that is not 1) located in a true urban environment, or 2) located in an existing historical building.

This is a win.  It's not perfect.  We live in frickin' Oklahoma, for crying out loud.  But this is a big step in the right direction. (Lately, that's how I define wins.  It's about incremental progress towards what can be, not "getting everything I want" today..) 

This much improved design would have been impossible 5 years ago, when Wayne Alberty was over land development services at INCOG.  We should all be thanking the people who worked hard and fought to make this possible.

It's not fair to ask these folks to fight for us, and then crap on them when we don't get every perfect thing we wanted.  How's that going to work as a long-term strategy? Does that motivate anyone? (I once watched a man call his dog repeatedly.  When the dog finally came, he punished it for being slow to respond.  The lesson he just taught his dog: even though you're on the right track, expect to be punished.)

I would rather express thanks and encourage the people who worked hard to make significant progress towards the neighborhood's vision. 
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Bamboo World
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« Reply #186 on: May 20, 2016, 03:10:44 pm »


It's not fair to ask these folks to fight for us, and then crap on them when we don't get every perfect thing we wanted.


Who are "these folks"?  

Who is crapping on "these folks"?

In my opinion, adding windows to the facades (near the roof) made them worse, not better.  It makes the overall fenestration worse, not better.

Evidently, Breadburner thinks all of "them" should be voted out of office.  Again, I don't know who "they" are, or why all of "them" should be voted out of office.  

But I do think the proposed "improvements" to the exterior elevations are gag-worthy, if that's what Breadburner meant.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2016, 03:14:16 pm by Bamboo World » Logged
JoeMommaBlake
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« Reply #187 on: May 20, 2016, 03:52:45 pm »

I wrote a nauseatingly long blog post about it for any who care to jump inside my head as it relates to this issue.

https://blakeewing.wordpress.com/2016/05/20/regarding-cvs/?fb_action_ids=835621466582462&fb_action_types=news.publishes

Thanks for the comments along the way. I always enjoy the feedback on this site...almost always.

B
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TheArtist
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« Reply #188 on: May 20, 2016, 06:16:06 pm »

I wrote a nauseatingly long blog post about it for any who care to jump inside my head as it relates to this issue.

https://blakeewing.wordpress.com/2016/05/20/regarding-cvs/?fb_action_ids=835621466582462&fb_action_types=news.publishes

Thanks for the comments along the way. I always enjoy the feedback on this site...almost always.

B

Well written blog post Blake.  I do think this was a fair and decent outcome considering.  Lets keep pushing forward and evolving our city to becoming an ever more pedestrian lively and transit friendly place.
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davideinstein
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« Reply #189 on: May 21, 2016, 01:18:03 pm »

I wrote a nauseatingly long blog post about it for any who care to jump inside my head as it relates to this issue.

https://blakeewing.wordpress.com/2016/05/20/regarding-cvs/?fb_action_ids=835621466582462&fb_action_types=news.publishes

Thanks for the comments along the way. I always enjoy the feedback on this site...almost always.

B

Agree with your sentiments.
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #190 on: May 26, 2016, 08:02:18 am »

The 21st and Harvard corner is a great example. In 10 years that area went from interesting, funky, and quasi urban... to a suburban intersection. Multi story street fronted buildings were replaced with single use structures with parking out front.  Umbertos fronted brick building is being replaced with a setback strip mall.

Now, in many instances, dilapidated buildings were also replaced with new shiny buildings. But reason we had to give up character to achieve new and shiny.  I understand the same restrictions aren't in place, and I'm not blaming anyone for the development at 21st and Harvard, but if I wanted new and shiny with no character, I'd live in Owasso.

The Utica CVS is a huge step in the right direction. At very least an acknowledgment that an urban corridor and a  suburban big box lot are two different things. No lets keep improving the code (overlay, overlay!) so there isn't a "moving goalpost" for developers and neighbors know what to expect.
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« Reply #191 on: May 26, 2016, 08:35:55 am »

Cherry Street seems to be doing okay with businesses organically fitting the neighborhood.  I'm more worried about the office buildings on 15th between Utica and Lewis.  They are old and unique and I've been told some of the lawyers are reaching retirement age and will have to decide what to do with their buildings.  They will be faced with the choice of maintaining the character and integrity by paying for updates or rehabs, or it would probably be cheaper to tear them down and replace them with generic stucco stripmalls.  I don't think those buildings even have a small area plan in place. 
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Conan71
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« Reply #192 on: May 26, 2016, 09:50:59 am »

The 21st and Harvard corner is a great example. In 10 years that area went from interesting, funky, and quasi urban... to a suburban intersection. Multi story street fronted buildings were replaced with single use structures with parking out front.  Umbertos fronted brick building is being replaced with a setback strip mall.

Now, in many instances, dilapidated buildings were also replaced with new shiny buildings. But reason we had to give up character to achieve new and shiny.  I understand the same restrictions aren't in place, and I'm not blaming anyone for the development at 21st and Harvard, but if I wanted new and shiny with no character, I'd live in Owasso.

The Utica CVS is a huge step in the right direction. At very least an acknowledgment that an urban corridor and a  suburban big box lot are two different things. No lets keep improving the code (overlay, overlay!) so there isn't a "moving goalpost" for developers and neighbors know what to expect.

Umberto’s is really the only significant loss in the last 10 years and the building was pretty shot.  I’d rather see something like the shell was replace it rather than more suburban style for sure.

The CVS replaced a really dumpy Mays/Drug Warehouse that had about the same set back.  QT has been there forever with a re-do that swallowed a few unremarkable homes on the block behind it (not please with it but they were not shining architectural gems).  I believe the Burger Street replaced a gas station about 20 years ago, and the Arby’s has been on the other corner in various configurations since Der Weiner Schnitzel left about 35 years ago.  The stretch between 21st & 15th has been a mix of up to the curb and set back suburban style development for 50+ years.
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DTowner
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« Reply #193 on: May 26, 2016, 10:42:59 am »

Cherry Street seems to be doing okay with businesses organically fitting the neighborhood.  I'm more worried about the office buildings on 15th between Utica and Lewis.  They are old and unique and I've been told some of the lawyers are reaching retirement age and will have to decide what to do with their buildings.  They will be faced with the choice of maintaining the character and integrity by paying for updates or rehabs, or it would probably be cheaper to tear them down and replace them with generic stucco stripmalls.  I don't think those buildings even have a small area plan in place. 

Most of the offices on the north side of 15th between Utica and Lewis are former homes.  I’ve been in a few and while they can be interesting, some have functionality issues and real problems with access for the handicapped (same thing for some converted homes on Denver south of downtown).  While I like the aesthetics of that stretch of 15th, I suspect the value of the land is overtaking the value of the existing buildings.  If/when any of those are knocked down, I hope whatever replaces them will be built closer to the street and have parking in back.
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« Reply #194 on: May 26, 2016, 10:48:57 am »

Umberto’s is really the only significant loss in the last 10 years and the building was pretty shot.  I’d rather see something like the shell was replace it rather than more suburban style for sure.

The CVS replaced a really dumpy Mays/Drug Warehouse that had about the same set back.  QT has been there forever with a re-do that swallowed a few unremarkable homes on the block behind it (not please with it but they were not shining architectural gems).  I believe the Burger Street replaced a gas station about 20 years ago, and the Arby’s has been on the other corner in various configurations since Der Weiner Schnitzel left about 35 years ago.  The stretch between 21st & 15th has been a mix of up to the curb and set back suburban style development for 50+ years.

Those buildings may not have been great losses, but I think the corner definitely has a more boring feel than it did in the past.
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