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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #45 on: September 09, 2015, 08:14:47 am »

Ultimate irony for a lack of parking to be cited as the reason.  If it had been just about any other type of business the Pearl District folks would have been clamoring for the lack of parking to be approved.

But it wasn't a business and having them take up nearby street parking spaces and walk won't bring any potential new business or shoppers to the area. It wasn't just Pearl District business owners against it. Hodges bend is about 2 blocks away and that area is nice. They are putting in the food truck park 2 blocks away. Dead Armadillo and Tulsa's only whisky maker are 2 blocks away. Lots of new stuff popping up nearby including Topeca roastery 3 blocks north and Freeway Cafe.

If we want East downtown to keep expanding this way, one of the largest soup kitchens in the US can't be built there. This is bad for all businesses between the Day Center and Pearl. Do those places want more homeless than customers walking around? Because this is how you get more homeless than customers meandering through the heart of a quickly developing downtown.

You can help the homeless and also not hamper downtown growth so drastically. There are plenty of empty lots north of 244 (near Peoria/Lewis) and west of downtown. Hopefully they find a better spot. Wherever they go they will face opposition, but there should be places that don't require so many exceptions and can better accommodate this. Just about any empty lot off Charles Page blvd west of Owen Park where it's mostly industrial/empty might be able to work and will get a lot less opposition.
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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #46 on: September 09, 2015, 08:22:41 am »

Years ago I contacted Iron Gate.

I asked that they ask their guests to approach downtown workers (my wife) in a less menacing manner asking for/demanding money.

(The company she worked for eventually moved out of downtown)

I also asked if there was a way they could use less Styrofoam containers when handing out the food.  (the containers littered the area for blocks)

I was accidentally kept on the email thread that followed and saw the responses by Irongate personnel and the church. 

From then on, I have no reason to support Irongate or the church.

This comment is very telling. It also echoes a comment I read on the TW:

Quote
I heard that Mr. Saunders from your board lost his cool at one of the neighborhood meetings and raised his voice in response to a question about why Iron Gate was not looking for a location closer to the Day Center and the other social services that also serve many of your guests. I was told he got a little bent out of shape and remarked, "So you want to turn that side of downtown into the ghetto". If Iron Gate moves to 3rd & Peoria, what types of businesses will want to purchase land across the street from them? No retail or restaurant for sure! Maybe a blood bank or something similar will find value in the land across the street.

After reading those, the Iron Gate leaders sound rude and out of touch. At least he admitted they will turn the Pearl District into a ghetto. I am glad it was denied:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/iron-gate-move-to-pearl-district-denied-at-tulsa-board/article_43da0f72-ebb0-5af4-9d32-71f507fd0abc.html
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takemebacktotulsa
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« Reply #47 on: September 09, 2015, 09:33:20 am »

I worry that the decision to deny the development because of parking will set a troubling precedent for any future developments in the Pearl. Especially for the kind of walkable/pedestrian friendly developments the Pearl District claims they want.
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AquaMan
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« Reply #48 on: September 09, 2015, 10:16:57 am »

They will find another place no doubt. Like Gold, I didn't see any new arguments or logic to either approve or disapprove this location. The "undesirables" are most visible downtown but they migrate from all over the area. They travel to anywhere a church or social services organization exists.

I really dislike the idea of grouping them into the least desirable, least defended neighborhoods.

BTW, this thought occurred to me as I drove by Admiral and Peoria the other day. Upscale bars, restaurants, lofts and walled off residential is not always the "highest and best use" of a tract of land. This particular area works quite well as industrial/commercial.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 10:20:54 am by AquaMan » Logged

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DowntownDan
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« Reply #49 on: September 09, 2015, 10:26:04 am »

This comment is very telling. It also echoes a comment I read on the TW:

After reading those, the Iron Gate leaders sound rude and out of touch. At least he admitted they will turn the Pearl District into a ghetto. I am glad it was denied:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/iron-gate-move-to-pearl-district-denied-at-tulsa-board/article_43da0f72-ebb0-5af4-9d32-71f507fd0abc.html

I don't interpret that as rude as much as frustration at the idea that we should just shove all the poor people in a corner of downtown by the jail and keep them from everywhere else.  He's not saying that Iron Gate would cause a ghetto, but that if the idea is to put all of the services in one small area, then it could turn into a ghetto since nobody else will accept it in their area.  Basically out of sight, out of mind.  For people who have strongly advocated for the poor, that idea is pretty offensive.  Having services throughout town not only help to try and integrate with the community, it also recognizes that not all of the people who use the service are homeless people panhandling downtown and that there is need all throughout the community.

Nevertheless, it looks like the Pearl won their battle to put it in someone else's backyard.  Congratulations I guess.  I'm sure that some people were against the move and also strongly in support of the poor and were truly motivated by parking and zoning and plans, but many were motivated purely by nimbyism, several of whom openly admit it, and the others are going to be grouped into the nimby category whether it's fair or not.  It looks like they won't appeal and will start looking elsewhere so its over for now.  Good luck finding a place that isn't going to raise the same ruckus.  Now for all of this idealistic utopia of the Pearl District, and especially 3rd and Peoria, to come to fruition.  I'm sure all the current residents with run down houses and living paycheck to paycheck will be super happy with all the exciting developments that wouldn't have been possible if they had allowed a multi-million dollar facility to be built to help more poor people.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 10:29:49 am by DowntownDan » Logged
TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #50 on: September 09, 2015, 12:01:44 pm »

BTW, this thought occurred to me as I drove by Admiral and Peoria the other day. Upscale bars, restaurants, lofts and walled off residential is not always the "highest and best use" of a tract of land. This particular area works quite well as industrial/commercial.

Some of the most interesting places to visit in other cities are the old industrial areas where abandoned factories have been repurposed and turned into awesome thriving businesses (Minneapolis has a lot and London near the Borough Market and Camden Town are 2 great examples). The Brady District was very industrial before it started to turn around and it still has a sizeable industrial/commercial presence. One of the first things they did to improve Brady was removing a liquor store and homeless hangouts. There are dozens of businesses which have moved to the Pearl area already.

Want to reduce poverty and help those nearby? Improving the area and keeping the momentum going will help bring in even more investment help downtown and the Pearl and should produce more jobs in the area. When those businesses thrive, they can bring in more employees (See Marshall with their vast array of brews and their tasting room right now!). Marshall is constructing a new tasting room. So is Dead Armadillo. That brings money to the area for both construction and jobs. Money that might otherwise be going to big corporate chains and products.
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DTowner
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« Reply #51 on: September 09, 2015, 12:10:52 pm »

I don't interpret that as rude as much as frustration at the idea that we should just shove all the poor people in a corner of downtown by the jail and keep them from everywhere else.  He's not saying that Iron Gate would cause a ghetto, but that if the idea is to put all of the services in one small area, then it could turn into a ghetto since nobody else will accept it in their area.  Basically out of sight, out of mind.  For people who have strongly advocated for the poor, that idea is pretty offensive.  Having services throughout town not only help to try and integrate with the community, it also recognizes that not all of the people who use the service are homeless people panhandling downtown and that there is need all throughout the community.

Nevertheless, it looks like the Pearl won their battle to put it in someone else's backyard.  Congratulations I guess.  I'm sure that some people were against the move and also strongly in support of the poor and were truly motivated by parking and zoning and plans, but many were motivated purely by nimbyism, several of whom openly admit it, and the others are going to be grouped into the nimby category whether it's fair or not.  It looks like they won't appeal and will start looking elsewhere so its over for now.  Good luck finding a place that isn't going to raise the same ruckus.  Now for all of this idealistic utopia of the Pearl District, and especially 3rd and Peoria, to come to fruition.  I'm sure all the current residents with run down houses and living paycheck to paycheck will be super happy with all the exciting developments that wouldn't have been possible if they had allowed a multi-million dollar facility to be built to help more poor people.

It is reasonable to argue that we shouldn't concentrate all these service providers in one area.  Unfortunately, that is pretty much what we've done in the NW part of downtown specifically, and downtown generally.  This proposed location really just perpetuated that problem by keeping it essentially in the downtown area.  Again, are the service providers downtown because that is where the homeless/in need population is located or are are so many homeless/in need folks downtown because that is where the service providers are located?

As I understand it, Iron Gate currently offers some mobile services.  Perhaps it would better serve its mission for the targeted community to expand those mobile services to go to the people instead of forcing them to come to  Iron Gate - wherever it is located.



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PonderInc
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« Reply #52 on: September 09, 2015, 12:29:41 pm »

I read an article in the Frontier that said one of the reasons the BOA turned it down was that they didn't have enough parking.  Seriously?  Not enough parking for.. the homeless folks?
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AquaMan
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« Reply #53 on: September 09, 2015, 12:35:10 pm »

Some of the most interesting places to visit in other cities are the old industrial areas where abandoned factories have been repurposed and turned into awesome thriving businesses (Minneapolis has a lot and London near the Borough Market and Camden Town are 2 great examples). The Brady District was very industrial before it started to turn around and it still has a sizeable industrial/commercial presence. One of the first things they did to improve Brady was removing a liquor store and homeless hangouts. There are dozens of businesses which have moved to the Pearl area already.

Want to reduce poverty and help those nearby? Improving the area and keeping the momentum going will help bring in even more investment help downtown and the Pearl and should produce more jobs in the area. When those businesses thrive, they can bring in more employees (See Marshall with their vast array of brews and their tasting room right now!). Marshall is constructing a new tasting room. So is Dead Armadillo. That brings money to the area for both construction and jobs. Money that might otherwise be going to big corporate chains and products.

That's not entirely correct. Brady had lots of abandoned and underperforming industrial/commercial/warehouses from an architecturally interesting period of time. Third and Peoria has warehousing, welding supplies, labor finders, manufacturing, machining, paint suppliers, electrical suppliers, industrial services, fabricators etc. currently providing low overhead to the operators and tax dollars to the community. I can't place a liquor store in the area until you get to Whittier Square (I grew up in the area). They are not architecturally or historically contributing. They are just old.

That is not to be confused with warehouse districts that have huge abandoned buildings or large operations like Borg Steel.

Nonetheless, its done. The essential problem is that one area of town on the western boundary of Brady is acceptable since it is already polluted. Yet on the East side of Brady it isn't acceptable. Move it to 31st and Sheridan. Lots of empty parking lots over there.
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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #54 on: September 09, 2015, 02:30:26 pm »

That's not entirely correct. Brady had lots of abandoned and underperforming industrial/commercial/warehouses from an architecturally interesting period of time. Third and Peoria has warehousing, welding supplies, labor finders, manufacturing, machining, paint suppliers, electrical suppliers, industrial services, fabricators etc. currently providing low overhead to the operators and tax dollars to the community. I can't place a liquor store in the area until you get to Whittier Square (I grew up in the area). They are not architecturally or historically contributing. They are just old.

Which part is not entirely correct? Buildings like the ones Topeca and Selser Schaefer Architects restored (old ice factory) are a couple examples in the area. There are many more including this one next to Topeca which could be restored to something neat: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1602026,-95.9755954,3a,75y,308.53h,85.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0b3WsfynyDYvjKWxDrhHyw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

There are plenty of old interesting buildings in the Pearl District. They are more spread out than in the Brady but they are there. Explore the area and see that businesses are opening all over and investors are putting money into restoring old buildings like the Garden Deva shop.

You don't believe me about the liquor store in Brady District? Well here is the quote from the News on 6 article:
Quote
When Sharp bought the old Fox Hotel building at Main and Brady in the early ‘80s, it was being used as a liquor store—a very successful liquor store. It was the biggest seller of cheap Night Train wine west of the Mississippi.

"It's hard to exaggerate how bad it was. I would come down in the morning, and I officed in the back, in the old liquor store office when I first started, and I would scoop people out of the way," Sharp said.

And when he hung a closed sign on the liquor store's front door, Sharp, a college history major and disenchanted attorney, probably sparked the Brady District's long, slow comeback.
http://www.newson6.com/story/20929692/the-man-who-owns-downtown-tulsa
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AquaMan
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« Reply #55 on: September 09, 2015, 03:58:48 pm »

Our definition of Pearl differs. I didn't deny a liquor store existed in Brady. There were tons of abandoned interesting buildings shuttered up in Brady waiting for promised downtown development for decades.
Read for comprehension.
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« Reply #56 on: September 09, 2015, 04:13:05 pm »

This was not the right place for a soup kitchen.....
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AquaMan
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« Reply #57 on: September 09, 2015, 06:45:36 pm »

What is the right place? I see panhandlers at 31st and Memorial near the hotels. In fact they are all over the city. Why does it have to be downtown?
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swake
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« Reply #58 on: September 09, 2015, 06:52:44 pm »

What is the right place? I see panhandlers at 31st and Memorial near the hotels. In fact they are all over the city. Why does it have to be downtown?

Panhandlers at major intersections generally are not homeless or needy, they are grifters. They are not the people you see at Iron Gate. My issue with Iron Gate is the same issue I have the Day Center. They shouldn't need to exist and the money they raise should be used to HOUSE Tulsa's chronically homeless most of whom have drug and mental illness issues. Wherever that housing exists it should be located near where the services for the needy already are, such as public health, social workers, mental health facilities.  It's not creating a ghetto, it's providing easy access to services to the people that need them.

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TeeDub
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« Reply #59 on: September 09, 2015, 08:21:12 pm »

Not so sure about that.    There is a substantial homeless population around 41st and Skelly.   There are several assistance places right there as well.

http://www.12and12.org/
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 08:25:05 pm by TeeDub » Logged

 
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