A grassroots organization focused on the intelligent and sustainable development, preservation and revitalization of Tulsa.
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
November 21, 2017, 03:28:30 pm
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...  (Read 22545 times)
Bamboo World
Philanthropist
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 568


« Reply #105 on: September 12, 2016, 01:14:17 pm »



The hotel drop off was originally shown as part of the existing building at 1st & Elgin...

...I prefer if there is a drop off that it is on 1st instead of Elgin.
 

I'm not sure why the drop-off was changed from 1st to Elgin, or if it's supposed to be a second drop-off for the hotel.

Regardless, curb cuts for hotel drop-offs are not best practice for increasing walkability.  A drop-off lane would be better at the curb, and one could work quite well on First Street (converted to two-way traffic).

From Walkable City, page 184:
Quote

Whether or not businesses can be made to give up their current curb cuts, the best strategy now* is to simply not allow any new ones.  Even hotels, unless they are quite large, should be able to handle drop-offs easily at the curb, in the parking lane.  In Philadelphia, we stayed at the 230-room Hotel Palomar, which welcomes all its cars this way.  To be stingy with curb cuts, cities must be generous with small no-parking zones at places like hotels, where drop-offs occur continuously.


*now = 2012, as opposed to the 1970s

Source:  Walkable City, for sale online or locally at Decopolis, 502 South Boston Avenue.

The Santa Fe Square development drawings published about two years ago show the hotel set back about 55 feet from the property line along Elgin, which is a large setback on an urban street.  The drawings show a courtyard with tables and chairs in that setback, but the Hotel Indigo rendering published last week shows curb cuts for a drop-off there instead of an outdoor dining area.  That design revision lowers the walkability factor -- significantly. 

The proposed Hotel Indigo drop-off area is a suburban, auto-centric idea, very much like the setback for Jackson Technical, currently under construction five blocks south of the Santa Fe Square site.

Logged
rebound
Philanthropist
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 694


WWW
« Reply #106 on: September 12, 2016, 04:08:54 pm »

It looks like to me they simply moved the front entrance of the Hotel to Elgin instead of First. Assuming the hotel building layout is the same as in the original SFS  development drawings, this makes much more sense from an internal hotel flow standpoint.  Of course, once you do that you need a drive through (of some kind) at the front door.  Which eliminates the tables, etc, that were originally in that spot.  What is not shown is what happened to the 1st street side.  If they kept the  curb cuts, then I can see the arguments. But if they eliminated all that, then it's basically a wash.  (But again, I'm not an expert on walkability so what do I know...)
Logged

 
Bamboo World
Philanthropist
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 568


« Reply #107 on: September 12, 2016, 05:39:41 pm »


It looks like to me they simply moved the front entrance of the Hotel to Elgin instead of First. Assuming the hotel building layout is the same as in the original SFS  development drawings, this makes much more sense from an internal hotel flow standpoint.  Of course, once you do that you need a drive through (of some kind) at the front door.  Which eliminates the tables, etc, that were originally in that spot.  What is not shown is what happened to the 1st street side.  If they kept the  curb cuts, then I can see the arguments. But if they eliminated all that, then it's basically a wash.  (But again, I'm not an expert on walkability so what do I know...)


Earlier today, I quoted an expert* on walkability:
Quote

Whether or not businesses can be made to give up their current curb cuts, the best strategy now is to simply not allow any new ones.  Even hotels, unless they are quite large, should be able to handle drop-offs easily at the curb, in the parking lane.  In Philadelphia, we stayed at the 230-room Hotel Palomar, which welcomes all its cars this way.  To be stingy with curb cuts, cities must be generous with small no-parking zones at places like hotels, where drop-offs occur continuously.


Source:  Walkable City by Jeff Speck, page 184.  The paperback version of the book can be purchased for $16 at Decopolis, 502 South Boston Avenue.

A drive-through drop-off is not necessary for a small urban hotel.  A drop-off lane at the curb on Elgin Avenue or on First Street would suffice for the proposed 106-room Hotel Indigo, as curbside drop-offs work for the 102-room Mayo Hotel on Fifth Street and for the 119-room Courtyard by Marriott on Boston Avenue.

Vehicular circulation around the Santa Fe Square site would be improved tremendously with both First and Second Streets as two-ways instead of one-ways.  Walkability would also be improved with two-way streets.  Walkability will be reduced with curb cuts for unneeded drive-through drop-offs, as it will be reduced by the curb cuts and the parking area setback in front of the Jackson Technical building.

*Many people would describe the author of Walkable City as the expert on walkability.  The Downtown Coordinating Council is commissioning him to conduct a $70,000 walkability analysis for downtown Tulsa, beginning this month.  What he has written about curb cuts for drop-offs is very clear, in my opinion.  If the City is interested in increasing walkability downtown, then new curb cuts for drop-offs serving small hotels shouldn't be allowed.  If the City isn't interested in increasing walkability, then there's no need to spend $70,000 on a downtown walkability study.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 05:46:18 pm by Bamboo World » Logged
Conan71
Recovering Republican
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 28716



« Reply #108 on: September 12, 2016, 06:55:21 pm »

Good examples with the Mayo and Courtyard, I hadn’t even thought of those as zero curb-cuts for drop offs.
Logged

"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first” -Ronald Reagan
Bamboo World
Philanthropist
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 568


« Reply #109 on: September 12, 2016, 07:46:29 pm »



Good examples with the Mayo and Courtyard, I hadn’t even thought of those as zero curb-cuts for drop offs.


I chose those two examples because they're local and have about the same number of rooms as the proposed Hotel Indigo.  The 220-room Holiday Inn at 7th & Boulder doesn't need two curb cuts for its drop-off, either.  If its canopy extended a bit farther south, the drop-off could be handled curbside there, too. 

In my opinion, the least pedestrian-friendly hotel drop-offs downtown are:

1. The Doubletree on Seventh Street.
2. The Hyatt Regency on Second Street.
3. The Fairfield Inn on Main Street.

I can understand the need for covered drop-off areas at the Doubletree and the Hyatt, but the 102-room Fairfield Inn is relatively small.  The Fairfield's curb cut and driveway have special textured paving.  It's dangerous when wet because it's as slick as snot.  Regular concrete would be so much better and safer.  No curb cut on Main at all would have been even better.

Logged
SXSW
City Father
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3416


WWW
« Reply #110 on: September 12, 2016, 08:04:49 pm »

Urban hotels don't need a curb cut.  This isn't the past where cabs needed a place to idle.  Just don't have meters in front for the "drop off" area.  People driving can valet there, and everyone else can pick up their uber/lyft there.

New Halcyon Hotel in Denver - 155 rooms and no curb cut for the drop off
Logged

 
rebound
Philanthropist
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 694


WWW
« Reply #111 on: September 13, 2016, 07:46:01 am »

Earlier today, I quoted an expert* on walkability:
Source:  Walkable City by Jeff Speck, page 184.  The paperback version of the book can be purchased for $16 at Decopolis, 502 South Boston Avenue.

A drive-through drop-off is not necessary for a small urban hotel.  A drop-off lane at the curb on Elgin Avenue or on First Street would suffice for the proposed 106-room Hotel Indigo, as curbside drop-offs work for the 102-room Mayo Hotel on Fifth Street and for the 119-room Courtyard by Marriott on Boston Avenue.

Vehicular circulation around the Santa Fe Square site would be improved tremendously with both First and Second Streets as two-ways instead of one-ways.  Walkability would also be improved with two-way streets.  Walkability will be reduced with curb cuts for unneeded drive-through drop-offs, as it will be reduced by the curb cuts and the parking area setback in front of the Jackson Technical building.

*Many people would describe the author of Walkable City as the expert on walkability.  The Downtown Coordinating Council is commissioning him to conduct a $70,000 walkability analysis for downtown Tulsa, beginning this month.  What he has written about curb cuts for drop-offs is very clear, in my opinion.  If the City is interested in increasing walkability downtown, then new curb cuts for drop-offs serving small hotels shouldn't be allowed.  If the City isn't interested in increasing walkability, then there's no need to spend $70,000 on a downtown walkability study.

I was being a little sarcastic (snide?  tounge-in-cheek? not sure...) with my "not an expert" comment, as I had already read your earlier post.  I am in complete agreement that the hotel doesn't need curb cuts or drive throughs, and from a traffic standpoint could be handled well with a dedicate no-parking drop-off area at the curb in front of the building.  (However, the new drawing shows that the drop off area would be covered, which is nice.  They would need to extend the canopy all the way to, or at least near, the curb to have a similar entry experience.)

My comment had more to do with (based on the new rendering) the unknown of what had changed on the 1st st side.  If they eliminated the drive through, then it's not worse than the original in terms of walkability.  Of course there is room for improvement.  However, from a facilities layout perspective, which I do have some experience in, I do like the move of the front door to the Elgin side.  It allows for a much better internal flow within the hotel itself.   
Logged

 
Bamboo World
Philanthropist
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 568


« Reply #112 on: September 13, 2016, 09:03:12 am »



I am in complete agreement that the hotel doesn't need curb cuts or drive throughs, and from a traffic standpoint could be handled well with a dedicated no-parking drop-off area at the curb in front of the building.  (However, the new drawing shows that the drop off area would be covered, which is nice.  They would need to extend the canopy all the way to, or at least near, the curb to have a similar entry experience.)

My comment had more to do with (based on the new rendering) the unknown of what had changed on the 1st st side.  If they eliminated the drive through, then it's not worse than the original in terms of walkability.  Of course there is room for improvement.


Yes, there's room for improvement.  I'm comparing the proposed design for the Elgin Avenue side published just last week to the previous design for Santa Fe Square that has been shown for the past two years.  In terms of walkability, the newer version is worse than the older version.


However, from a facilities layout perspective, which I do have some experience in, I do like the move of the front door to the Elgin side.  It allows for a much better internal flow within the hotel itself.
   

It depends on what's going on inside the hotel and where.  If there's an event scheduled for a room in the older portion of the building on the north, a First Street drop-off would be handy.  If it's guests going to their rooms, an Elgin Avenue drop off might be handy.  A drop-off on the private street south of the hotel might work, too.

My point was about the emphasis on the "walkability factor" mentioned in the Tulsa World article last week.  The revised design, at least along Elgin Avenue, is much less walkable than the design that has been promoted for the past two years, showing a patio with outdoor dining on the west side, not another curb cut for a drop-off.  In my opinion, there's no need to give lip service to walkability and then design something that's not pedestrian friendly.  That's silly.  Curb cuts for urban hotel drop-offs reduce walkability.  The design for Hotel Indigo published last week is a suburban idea, not urban.  It's not pedestrian-friendly.

Canopies can extend out toward the curb, so a covered drop-off would be possible on Elgin.  Another covered drop-off would be possible at the curb on First Street, but it would work much better with First as a two-way.

Logged
SXSW
City Father
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3416


WWW
« Reply #113 on: November 12, 2016, 01:18:27 pm »

From the TW about Class A office space..

Quote
The proposed $200 million Santa Fe Square still is seeking tenants to anchor its 157,000-square-foot office building, on which ground could be broken soon.. Spread over two city blocks bordered by First and Second streets and Elgin and Greenwood avenues, it will feature retail and office space, 291 apartments and a Hotel Indigo.

“Some people say 60 bucks makes it work, and we start drilling again and that could potentially spark new construction,” Reese said. “That’s just such a huge driver for us. At $50 oil, what I hear from my clients is, ‘The boats are floating, but we’re not going anyway.’
“But for all the bad news you hear about the energy market, between aerospace and financial groups and health care, looking at those different sectors, Tulsa right now appears to be fairly strong.”

http://m.tulsaworld.com/business/putting-the-class-a-in-tulsa-office-space/article_4ecb0599-a09d-5f84-9f83-d97b0252f4ae.html?mode=jqm
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 01:21:55 pm by SXSW » Logged

 
johrasephoenix
Guest
« Reply #114 on: November 12, 2016, 10:38:20 pm »

Can the Tulsa market absorb that much office space through natural growth or are we shuffling Class A office tenants around?
Logged
SXSW
City Father
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3416


WWW
« Reply #115 on: November 13, 2016, 09:35:26 am »

Can the Tulsa market absorb that much office space through natural growth or are we shuffling Class A office tenants around?

I would guess it would be a bit of both.  Class A space, per the article, has a vacancy rate of 4.5% so there is demand.  If new companies wanted Class A space they don't have a lot of options, especially new "Class AA" product wired for the latest technology with large open plans, amenities and located in an urban mixed-use development like Santa Fe Square.
Logged

 
Tulsasaurus Rex
Civic Leader
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 288


« Reply #116 on: November 13, 2016, 10:01:37 am »

Can the Tulsa market absorb that much office space through natural growth or are we shuffling Class A office tenants around?

And even if it is shuffling tenants from pre-existing Class A to new Class A, the older, dated Class A they left is now unlocked to do something else with.
Logged
johrasephoenix
Guest
« Reply #117 on: November 13, 2016, 12:05:53 pm »

The article has a list of new Class A office space going up and it's all way out in South Tulsa or Jenks.  I've worked in South Tulsa before and man it made getting lunch way less fun.  I had to walk across a death highway six lanes wide masquerading as a city street to access a blazing hot strip center to get chain food or Sonic.  I probably gained 10 pounds. 

Vs. downtown where I had lots of tasty lunch options and didn't feel at risk of eminent death to get a cup of coffee  And after work happy hour was way more doable.  and the looking out the window "wow, so this is Tulsa" vibe was way better.

My 2 cents.  But apparently I'm in a minority.
Logged
cannon_fodder
All around good guy.
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 9160



« Reply #118 on: November 14, 2016, 09:47:03 am »

The scuttle butt has always been that Tulsa has suffered a chronic shortage of Class-A office space.  There is a subset that would be "B" in a major market that is sometimes referred to as "Tulsa A," and even that is of limited supply downtown.   Anyone with actual real estate knowledge feel free to chime in, but checking Loopnet and CBRE, class A is very limited. Clearly the definition is open to debate, but...

Downtown you have OneOK, which I don't think has accepted new leases in a long while. BOK Tower, which I've repeatedly heard is bursting at the seams. The Dirty Ice Cube, which is City of Tulsa and BOK fairly well leased up (one open floor it appears on CBRE, it isn't clear they want to divide). Williams 1 and 2 (black towers), which have always done well.  And I understand Cimerex has decided not to lease office space in their new tower.

Next level, "Tulsa A" or high class B space, would be 1st Place Tower, which filled up fast with OneGas (Loopnet has 1 space listed and CBRE lists 2).  110 W. 7th just did and is doing more major renovations, and I think that is fairly well leased (CBRE lists one space).

I think Bank of America Tower, Petroleum Club, and MidCon would be seen as class-B spaces. Still nice, but certain corporations wanting to show off wouldn't be impressed.  Some older buildings are striving to stay in class-B, and there is a good bit of Class-C space. Surprisingly, even in the downtown it appears office spaces are doing well.

http://www.loopnet.com/for-lease/office/?bb=y28y7xv49Jlh2xmC
http://www.cbre.us/o/tulsa/Pages/office-for-lease.aspx

For the next sizeable "A" building, you'd have to go to Warren Place at 61st and Yale.  So if you were a law office looking for 20k of A space, or a corporation wanting to move a HQ and wanting 50k feet downtown, you're going to have a tough time finding it.

I don't think any spec Class-A has been built in downtown Tulsa for decades. When the Dirty Ice Cube was taken off the market, that about sucked it dry.
Logged

- - - - - - - - -
I crush grooves.
saintnicster
Civic Leader
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 338


« Reply #119 on: November 14, 2016, 11:22:22 am »

Amusingly, just posted today
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/putting-the-class-a-in-tulsa-office-space/article_4ecb0599-a09d-5f84-9f83-d97b0252f4ae.html
Putting the Class A in Tulsa office space
Quote
Southern Hills Tower overlooks a world-class golf course. The 15-story One Technology Center has a solar well that is good for the environment and easy on the eyes. Outside Unit Corp. headquarters are nature trails and a pond.

All are examples in Tulsa of Class A office buildings — multi-tenant spaces and grounds that are a couple of cuts above grade. They are some of the best office spaces in Tulsa.

“Typically, Class A office space would be the brightest and the shiniest and the newest in the market,” said Martin Martin, first vice president for CBRE’s Tulsa office.

Building Owners and Managers Association International groups office space into three classes: A, B and C. Class C Buildings compete for tenants requiring functional space at rents below the average for the area. Class B structures offer rents in the average range, adequate systems and building finishes in the fair to good range.

Class A spaces sport above-average rents, high-quality finishes, state-of-the-art elevator and HVAC systems and a litany of amenities, said Tanda L. Francis, managing broker-Tulsa for the real estate firm Price Edwards & Company. Those conveniences can include covered garage parking, fitness and child-care centers, security personnel, on-site food and banking services and locker rooms.

Recent additions to the Class A market in Tulsa include the Geophysical Resource Center 2 (8811 S. Yale Ave.), American Plaza (6011 S. Urbana Ave.) and Unit Corp. (8200 S. Unit Drive), as well as First Oklahoma Bank and Gateway Mortgage Group, both of which are in Jenks, said Matt Reese, an associate in CBRE’s Tulsa office.

Premier office buildings are recognizable from the get-go, he said.
“One thing that we notice with clients as soon as we walk through the door is the level of finish in a lobby and if there is any building personnel there to greet people,” he said. “That’s kind of a telltale sign of a building that’s concerned about just anyone coming in from off the street. They are there to direct traffic, to help lock up the building in the evenings and greet people in the mornings.”

Fitness centers and/or locker rooms with showers are gaining in popularity, especially with millennials who like to bicycle to work.
“Perhaps they have some dead space in the building, an area that they’ve had trouble leasing,” Reese said. “The thinking is that they could spend a little bit of capital and have a common space for tenants in the building to work out or congregate. That’s kind of a trend of office space utilization — more communal space.”

A total of 43 Class A properties totaling 7,816,546 square feet exist in the Tulsa metro, representing about 25 percent of the total office market, said Cody Brandt, senior research analyst for CBRE in Tulsa. Sixty-three percent of the total square feet in the Class A market are within the Inner Dispersal Loop (the percentages that don’t include medical office and properties less than 10,000 square feet).
According to CBRE’s market view for the first half of 2016, 4.5 percent of the area’s Class A space is vacant, and the vacancy rate of all properties CBRE surveys is 13.1 percent. The average Class A asking rate for the first half of 2016 is $21.81 per square foot per year.

“This 4.5 is a very low percent,” Martin said. “That means you have a really tight market in Class A office space. If you’ve got a tenant coming into the market who really wants to be in the really nice office space, they don’t have a lot of options right now.
“It’s kind of like which cars sell quicker — the Cadillacs or the Chevrolets? If you can afford the Class A’s, you are going to go for the Class A’s. But the rates for the Class A’s are more.”

The most plush office tends to attract energy-related companies, as well as large finance, consulting and architectural firms, Martin said. CBRE’s latest market view shows that Tulsa’s office market has maintained a trend of resiliency during the downturn of the energy industry.
“Looking at a market as a whole, on paper it’s a very good place to be,” Reese said. “But coming from an occupier services perspective, if we have a company that’s interested in entering the Tulsa market and they have Class A space in a market like Dallas or Houston or Chicago or Kansas City, it doesn’t present many opportunities.

“It’s something you’ve seen with the vacancy that has been filled at the Warren Towers I (75.9 percent leased) and II (98.2 percent). The energy industry struggles and puts some space on the market, and we saw a good majority of that filled extremely quickly because it presents opportunities for people to upgrade.”

The proposed $200 million Santa Fe Square still is seeking tenants to anchor its 157,000-square-foot office building, on which ground could be broken soon. Spread over two city blocks bordered by First and Second streets and Elgin and Greenwood avenues, it will feature retail and office space, 291 apartments and a Hotel Indigo.

For projects such as Santa Fe to continue to materialize, however, crude oil prices likely will have to enjoy a sustained increase, Reese said.
“Some people say 60 bucks makes it work, and we start drilling again and that could potentially spark new construction,” Reese said. “That’s just such a huge driver for us. At $50 oil, what I hear from my clients is, ‘The boats are floating, but we’re not going anyway.’
“But for all the bad news you hear about the energy market, between aerospace and financial groups and health care, looking at those different sectors, Tulsa right now appears to be fairly strong.”
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

 
  Hosted by TulsaConnect and Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
 

Mission

 

"TulsaNow's Mission is to help Tulsa become the most vibrant, diverse, sustainable and prosperous city of our size. We achieve this by focusing on the development of Tulsa's distinctive identity and economic growth around a dynamic, urban core, complemented by a constellation of livable, thriving communities."
more...

 

Contact

 

2210 S Main St.
Tulsa, OK 74114
(918) 409-2669
info@tulsanow.org