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November 23, 2017, 05:12:51 am
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Author Topic: Trump  (Read 44299 times)
heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #690 on: November 17, 2016, 04:12:39 pm »

So why is everyone wetting their pants over this and deporting criminals who are here illegally?  That all seems like perfectly sane policy to me and isn't vastly different than what we do now except for Trump wants to take credit for getting criminals off the street when it happens.  The Trump camp has repeatedly said they would deport criminals here illegally, not all illegal immigrants.  Since the number they keep throwing out is 2-3 million they want to round up, that seems to jibe since I believe it was estimated we had 16 to 20 million illegal er undocumented aliens in the run up to Obamacare.


This is an amazingly accurate, moderate take on all that has transpired in the last couple of weeks.  And very sensible... very common sense.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/jon-stewart-nobody-asked-donald-trump-what-makes-america-great-165854259.html

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saintnicster
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« Reply #691 on: November 17, 2016, 04:25:46 pm »

So why is everyone wetting their pants over this and deporting criminals who are here illegally?  That all seems like perfectly sane policy to me and isn't vastly different than what we do now except for Trump wants to take credit for getting criminals off the street when it happens.  The Trump camp has repeatedly said they would deport criminals here illegally, not all illegal immigrants.  Since the number they keep throwing out is 2-3 million they want to round up, that seems to jibe since I believe it was estimated we had 16 to 20 million illegal er undocumented aliens in the run up to Obamacare.
Question - how do we know who the criminals are and where they are located?

And my understanding is that at least part of the fear relates back to the Japanese Internment camps of WW2.  Plenty of (All?) law-abiding United States citizens of Japanese decent were rounded up and forced from their homes.
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erfalf
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« Reply #692 on: November 17, 2016, 07:38:50 pm »

Question - how do we know who the criminals are and where they are located?

Local Police. That was easy. Next question.  Wink
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dbacksfan 2.0
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« Reply #693 on: November 17, 2016, 08:19:22 pm »

Question - how do we know who the criminals are and where they are located?


As of 2014 there was ~2.25 million people incarcerated in the US. The number of illegal immigrants are ~30% of that population (depending on sources it's 25% to 37%) so that would give you 675,000. If you take that 30% guesstimate out of the total population of all criminals under all forms of supervision, 6,851,000/2014, you get just over 2,000,000. (The 30% is not an exact number, just a conservative percentage from several sites.)

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cpus14.pdf
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Conan71
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« Reply #694 on: November 17, 2016, 09:07:49 pm »

Question - how do we know who the criminals are and where they are located?

And my understanding is that at least part of the fear relates back to the Japanese Internment camps of WW2.  Plenty of (All?) law-abiding United States citizens of Japanese decent were rounded up and forced from their homes.

That really should be an un-founded fear as I believe we learned our lesson after WWII.  There was also a lot of paranoia in those days of spies and communists infiltrating our government.

As proof this would not happen, do note that Asians in the US were not rounded up during Korea or Vietnam and Iraqis, Afghanis, Syrians, Palestinians, Iranians, et. al. were not randomly rounded up during our campaigns in the Middle East.  

I believe NATO and the UN would have something to say about that as well.

Trump’s bluff and bluster during the campaign will gradually meet reality.  Depending on the spin his admin puts on it and who was expecting what, either the people who voted for him are going to be crying about unfulfilled campaign promises or very happy.  FWIW, I don’t imagine anyone but the smallest percentage of white supremacist knuckleheads are expecting all brown people and “Mooslims" to be run out of the country.

Notice what I said:  Only the smallest percentage.  Much like it’s only the smallest percentage of Muslims who have been radicalized and wish to do harm to the US and it’s citizens at all costs.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 11:05:17 pm by Conan71 » Logged

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Conan71
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« Reply #695 on: November 17, 2016, 09:08:44 pm »

Local Police. That was easy. Next question.  Wink

Well, except for cities like Denver and Aurora, Colorado which have said they won’t enforce it because it’s not their jerb. 
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"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first” -Ronald Reagan
cannon_fodder
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« Reply #696 on: November 18, 2016, 08:21:06 am »

Trump said he wants to deport every illegal immigrant (being Trump, he has also said that's not true and that it is absolutely true).  At one point people did the math on one bus a second for XYZ years to accomplish his goal.  Today we are back to Trump saying that is a ridiculous proposition and he never said it...

Donald Trump wants to deport every single illegal immigrant - could he?

Donald Trump promises 'deportation force' to remove 11 million
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/jul/28/karen-bass/mass-deportation-latino-families/

Now he has backed off and basically says he wants to keep doing exactly what Obama has been doing - deport convicted criminals first. Trump used the 2-3,000,000 person figure.  Which is more BS, because that's the number of criminals Obama has deported. And immigration officials say there aren't that many illegal immigrant criminals left to deport.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/there-arent-2-to-3-million-undocumented-immigrants-with-criminal-records-for-trump-to-deport/

In summary:
He started by saying Obama is a wuss and he, grand Trump would deport everyone.
He now says he will keep doing exactly what Obama is doing, except Obama has done it so well there isn't much to do.


(name a major city, and odds are they won't be playing immigration officer for the Feds. NYC to Los Angeles. Chicago to Miami. Phili to Seattle. Detroit to Santa Fe. Dozens of cities. Both because it is unpopular. Because it is an unwinnable game of wack-a-ole. And because it is an reimbursed expense of time and money when people demand action against criminals.)
- - - -

Also, Trump is taking credit on the Twitter for "saving" a Ford plant in Kentucky:

Quote
I worked hard with Bill Ford to keep the Lincoln plant in Kentucky. I owed it to the great State of Kentucky for their confidence in me!

Ford was planning on cutting production of a small Lincoln SUV and upping production at the plant of the Ford Escape - for a net gain/loss of zero jobs. Ford now announced it will keep the Lincoln production at the plant and move produce extra Escapes somewhere else - for a net gain/loss of zero jobs. The plant was never going to close and was not going to have any layoffs.

Trump reaction: I saved the Ford plant and American jobs!  All zero of them.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/11/18/502528759/trump-claims-credit-for-keeping-ford-lincoln-production-in-kentucky


Facts don't matter. Not to Donald Trump, and not to his supporters. I can't stand such nonsense.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 08:33:03 am by cannon_fodder » Logged

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rebound
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« Reply #697 on: November 18, 2016, 09:06:49 am »



In summary:
He started by saying Obama (insert person or organization here) is a wuss and he, grand Trump would deport everyone (Fix whatever it was).
He now says he will keep doing exactly what Obama (insert person or organization here) is doing, except Obama (insert person or organization here) has done it so well there isn't much to do.


Get ready for a LOT of this.  Which is probably about the best we can hope for at this point.
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swake
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« Reply #698 on: November 18, 2016, 09:13:46 am »

As of 2014 there was ~2.25 million people incarcerated in the US. The number of illegal immigrants are ~30% of that population (depending on sources it's 25% to 37%) so that would give you 675,000. If you take that 30% guesstimate out of the total population of all criminals under all forms of supervision, 6,851,000/2014, you get just over 2,000,000. (The 30% is not an exact number, just a conservative percentage from several sites.)

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cpus14.pdf

Um, no.

That percentage is from a Heritage Foundation study trying to show that illegals are very expensive and the study is flawed and misleading.

First off, the 25% is for all aliens (legal and not) in Federal custody only. The Department of Justice in that same report base BJS report you cited found that only 4% of prisoners in Federal or State public prisons were aliens, about 69,000 prisoners. Not all of which are illegal aliens. The BJS study did not include local jails or private prisons so it is not complete but the number of deportable illegal aliens in custody nationally is in the tens of thousands, probably the low tens of thousands. Nowhere remotely close your number of two million.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2016/aug/15/lisa-boothe/republican-strategist-says-25-percent-inmates-are-/

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/p14.pdf
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rebound
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« Reply #699 on: November 18, 2016, 10:06:46 am »

This is an amazingly accurate, moderate take on all that has transpired in the last couple of weeks.  And very sensible... very common sense.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/jon-stewart-nobody-asked-donald-trump-what-makes-america-great-165854259.html

Man,  I miss him...
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erfalf
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« Reply #700 on: November 18, 2016, 10:49:48 am »

Thread drift I know, but I heard something cute at work the other day. Effectively the gist was that several years ago (at least during the 12 election) John Stewart was the most trusted name in news for liberals, yet today, liberals are concerned about "fake news".

You can't make this stuff up.
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swake
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« Reply #701 on: November 18, 2016, 11:11:18 am »

Thread drift I know, but I heard something cute at work the other day. Effectively the gist was that several years ago (at least during the 12 election) John Stewart was the most trusted name in news for liberals, yet today, liberals are concerned about "fake news".

You can't make this stuff up.

what Jon Stewart did was political satire, mostly aimed at the skewering the media. While it was in the form of a "fake" news program, his message and facts were correct.

That is very different from "news" Organizations whose whole aim is to mislead, like with the study on Illegal Aliens I referenced above. Brietbart somehow claimed the number was 37% of people in prisons are illegal aliens. An incredibly false statistic meant to drive hatred and fear of immigrants.

If you can't see the difference, there's a problem.
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dbacksfan 2.0
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« Reply #702 on: November 18, 2016, 11:21:27 am »



That is very different from "news" Organizations whose whole aim is to mislead, like with the study on Illegal Aliens I referenced above. Brietbart somehow claimed the number was 37% of people in prisons are illegal aliens. An incredibly false statistic meant to drive hatred and fear of immigrants.

If you can't see the difference, there's a problem.

That's why I used and ~30% because of all the garbage sites from both the left and the right use vastly different numbers.

Quote
what Jon Stewart did was political satire, mostly aimed at the skewering the media. While it was in the form of a "fake" news program, his message and facts were correct.

So using facts to create fake news is accepted as factual? Just like MSNBC and the band of liars led by Brian Williams.
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rebound
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« Reply #703 on: November 18, 2016, 11:35:18 am »

So using facts to create fake news is accepted as factual? Just like MSNBC and the band of liars led by Brian Williams.

You do understand "Satire", right?  It is not fake news.   It is entertainment, and everybody knows it's entertainment.  The problem is when a purportedly real news outlet, like Fox on the Right and MSNBC on the left, skew the content so badly that it is fundamentally false.  Hence the lack of trust.   

The thing about good satire though, is that to do it well the person needs to have a solid understanding of what the real situation is.  Stuart leans a little left, but he skewered both sides when he felt it was deserved.  And when he decided every so often to not try to be funny and simply explain a position, he was (and is) better than most at doing it.   That's why he  was trusted, and that is why he is missed today.
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dbacksfan 2.0
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« Reply #704 on: November 18, 2016, 11:57:10 am »

You do understand "Satire", right?  It is not fake news.   It is entertainment, and everybody knows it's entertainment.  The problem is when a purportedly real news outlet, like Fox on the Right and MSNBC on the left, skew the content so badly that it is fundamentally false.  Hence the lack of trust.   

The thing about good satire though, is that to do it well the person needs to have a solid understanding of what the real situation is.  Stuart leans a little left, but he skewered both sides when he felt it was deserved.  And when he decided every so often to not try to be funny and simply explain a position, he was (and is) better than most at doing it.   That's why he  was trusted, and that is why he is missed today.

I get and enjoy satire, it's some of the best humor. My issue was and is with friends who I think of as well reasoned, educated and common sense types started basing their decisions in voting solely based on what Jon Stewart, Bill Maher and Stephen Colbert presented to them. 
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