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Author Topic: Miss Jackson's/Petty's.....  (Read 118380 times)
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« Reply #360 on: January 02, 2021, 03:40:43 pm »

The core of Utica Square is great as is and could remain the same.  Itís the fringes that need to be rebuilt starting with the NW corner.  Demolish Prosperity Bank and rebuild that corner with a strip of retail facing the interior street where Dog Dish, Salt, etc are located.  Then start working on the southern sections incorporating apartments and/or condos over retail.  Finally redevelop the NE corner where Chicoís/Vast Bank are located.  The perfect spot for a hotel is the H&P property at 21st & Utica.  Areas along Utica south of 15th are ripe for new residential midrises overlooking Swan Lake with downtown views.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #361 on: January 11, 2021, 01:49:17 pm »

.

Food trucks/trailers!

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« Reply #362 on: January 12, 2021, 11:56:39 am »

The core of Utica Square is great as is and could remain the same.  Itís the fringes that need to be rebuilt starting with the NW corner.  Demolish Prosperity Bank and rebuild that corner with a strip of retail facing the interior street where Dog Dish, Salt, etc are located.  Then start working on the southern sections incorporating apartments and/or condos over retail.  Finally redevelop the NE corner where Chicoís/Vast Bank are located.  The perfect spot for a hotel is the H&P property at 21st & Utica.  Areas along Utica south of 15th are ripe for new residential midrises overlooking Swan Lake with downtown views.

It's frustrating to see great lots stay vacant for so long. This spot is prime for development, as is the lot at 14th and Utica. But they just sit there with nothing while cheap hotels continue to expand in the south, including underneath highway ramps (ala Hwy 169 and 91st st).
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« Reply #363 on: January 12, 2021, 04:27:27 pm »

It's frustrating to see great lots stay vacant for so long. This spot is prime for development, as is the lot at 14th and Utica. But they just sit there with nothing while cheap hotels continue to expand in the south, including underneath highway ramps (ala Hwy 169 and 91st st).

Part of the reason Utica is in its current position is because it is owned by an oil company and not a real estate company. After Sr.'s death there really does seem to be nothing happening. I have very little info what has gone on lately with decisions related to this and Utica Square directly.

Part of what Oil Capital brought up about an old statement of mine a few days ago ignored all of that discussion since... at one point Utica Square was really getting its groove back it seemed. Lots of new tenants and lots of demand. Right around the time they demoed this building was the very end of that. Between oil prices collapsing, the death in the family, etc. it seems that they shifted focus elsewhere (likely toward keeping H&P from a bad fate like so many other O&G firms) and Utica Square and other real estate investments have been a side project for that family for a long time.

Hopefully they sell it to a local ownership group at some point who will treat this as a full time trophy/legacy property versus just a side business. Most likely if they end up selling it (not that there's any credible rumor I know of) it will go to a company like Simon. I really do think that would be the only short term way we'd see a big reinvestment in the center... but it will probably hobble along the way it is now for a few more years unfortunately, because it really is under utilized. I'd almost prefer it to be in the state it is now and hope for better local management in the future than have Simon or others come in and ruin it.
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« Reply #364 on: January 12, 2021, 04:47:07 pm »

Part of the reason Utica is in its current position is because it is owned by an oil company and not a real estate company. After Sr.'s death there really does seem to be nothing happening. I have very little info what has gone on lately with decisions related to this and Utica Square directly.


Being owned by an oil company is also part of the reason Utica Square is/was as good as it is/was.  It seems the new generation may have tired of subsidizing Sr's vanity project.  They really should try to unload it while they still have Saks... and Restoration Hardware.

Interesting note in their 2020 Annual Report:  "During the fiscal year ended September 30, 2020, we closed on the sale of a portion of our real estate investment portfolio, including six industrial sites."

« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 05:29:55 pm by Oil Capital » Logged

 
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« Reply #365 on: January 12, 2021, 05:28:46 pm »

Hopefully they sell it to a local ownership group at some point who will treat this as a full time trophy/legacy property versus just a side business. Most likely if they end up selling it (not that there's any credible rumor I know of) it will go to a company like Simon. I really do think that would be the only short term way we'd see a big reinvestment in the center... but it will probably hobble along the way it is now for a few more years unfortunately, because it really is under utilized. I'd almost prefer it to be in the state it is now and hope for better local management in the future than have Simon or others come in and ruin it.

That's what happened with Highland Park Village in Dallas, and it is in great shape.  Somewhat similar to Utica Square but smaller and much more upscale, but has some mixed-use elements like a grocery store and movie theater.
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« Reply #366 on: January 12, 2021, 05:50:41 pm »

That's what happened with Highland Park Village in Dallas, and it is in great shape.  Somewhat similar to Utica Square but smaller and much more upscale, but has some mixed-use elements like a grocery store and movie theater.

True.  But you understate it.  Highland Park Village, including its theater and "grocery store" are much much much more upscale than Utica Square.  Utica Square could benefit from local ownership dedicated solely to Utica Square, but we should not be expecting any owner, local or not, to deliver us anything like Highland Park Village.
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« Reply #367 on: January 12, 2021, 09:38:34 pm »

True.  But you understate it.  Highland Park Village, including its theater and "grocery store" are much much much more upscale than Utica Square.  Utica Square could benefit from local ownership dedicated solely to Utica Square, but we should not be expecting any owner, local or not, to deliver us anything like Highland Park Village.

HPV is pretty much exclusively upscale.  Utica Square is a mix which I prefer.  Add some more density and mixed-use and it could be really great. 
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« Reply #368 on: March 01, 2021, 12:51:31 am »

The Bumgarners should take over Utica Square or partner with Helmerich and run it/manage/re-create it.  My understanding is not all parts of what we think are Utica Square are --- that is, owned by Helmerich.  I think the Vast Bank/Chico's property is not part of Utica Square and the Prosperity bank building and drive-thru are not part of Utica Square --- fact check me on that.  What I'd do?  Build a 10-12 story office building and parking garage where Vast Bank/Chico are going back into the existing parking lot.  Make it a juxtaposition - petite emerald glass tower or something offsetting the faux-Spanish style that's taken over the area.  Make it classy eclectic.   Exclusive multi-tenant address for a bank HQs, financial brokerages, local company, etc.  Tear down most of strip with post office and rebuild close to east property line --- expand Polo Grill w/ outdoor park seating facing inland center --- turn to mini-ice skating rink in winter named Walt's Rink or something.  Build 2 story retail strip where current vacant Petty's/MJ space is w/ 2-3 additional office floors above --- parking below ground.  How about a small urban market, a larger L.L. Bean store and maybe a Bristol Seafood Restaurant in empty southeast corner w/ rooftop parking. Relocate electrical yard.  Make an upscale apartment w/ parking complex out of that mess of old medical plaza parking & concrete behind Chang's/Flemings.  Make their current locations part of the complex bottom floor.  In the center building where Starbuck's and the garden is --- put in a Hanson brewpub restaurant with 2 stories/outdoor deck dining.  Something interesting. Junk the current office strip above retail in the long building w/ Walgreens.  Rebuild/renovate it and add a 2-story office complex above retail.  Build a little 2 level above ground, 1-2 below ground parking garage immediately north of the Utica Ave. entrance ramp -- hugging Utica up to the bank drive thru.  Remove the bank and Prosperity building and add a landmark circular 4-5 story, retail and restaurant building right on 21st & Utica - keep the Spanish/Italian style --- whatever it is.  Build a 16-20 story high end glass bejeweled condo tower above Sak's parking garage --- add another 2-stories of parking to base of garage.  There.  We're done here.  Of course, has to be a post-COVID boom.   

Is the 31st and Peoria mixed-use complex dead --- anywhere close to original plan?   

Interesting article in the Tulsa World by Michael Overall --- wish there was more to it.  But it's about how Austin, Raleigh and other cities which were way smaller than Tulsa in the 80s, have leapfrogged Tulsa exponentially.  It cites oil industry issues, but not enough to be all of the reason.  I wonder if the real and even perceived power structure of Tulsa --- insular with 2nd, 3rd & 4th generation oil rich controlling things for decades has anything to do with choking out more "inclusive" development/growth?  The article did not really satisfy the question --- why has Tulsa stood still for 30-40 years, while others in its then peer group did not.                       
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« Reply #369 on: March 01, 2021, 09:21:37 pm »

Some inspiring ideas.
Be forewarned, though, that trying to move an electrical substation could easily cost millions, and guess who gets the bill...
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« Reply #370 on: March 02, 2021, 12:33:22 am »

Interesting article in the Tulsa World by Michael Overall --- wish there was more to it.  But it's about how Austin, Raleigh and other cities which were way smaller than Tulsa in the 80s, have leapfrogged Tulsa exponentially.  It cites oil industry issues, but not enough to be all of the reason.  I wonder if the real and even perceived power structure of Tulsa --- insular with 2nd, 3rd & 4th generation oil rich controlling things for decades has anything to do with choking out more "inclusive" development/growth?  The article did not really satisfy the question --- why has Tulsa stood still for 30-40 years, while others in its then peer group did not.                       

I read the article.  For every Austin or Raleigh there is a Memphis or Cincinnati, meaning there are plenty of cities that havenít seen the same levels of growth over the past two decades for different reasons.  I think in Tulsaís case it was a series of unfortunate events like the mid-80ís oil bust then a healthy period in the 90ís followed by the early-00ís telecom bust and then another healthy period over the past decade since the recession.  Lack of local civic leadership and a large public university didnít help either.  Leadership has improved but still need to get higher education figured out.
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« Reply #371 on: March 03, 2021, 10:17:28 am »

The Bumgarners should take over Utica Square or partner with Helmerich and run it/manage/re-create it.  My understanding is not all parts of what we think are Utica Square are --- that is, owned by Helmerich.  I think the Vast Bank/Chico's property is not part of Utica Square and the Prosperity bank building and drive-thru are not part of Utica Square --- fact check me on that.  What I'd do?  Build a 10-12 story office building and parking garage where Vast Bank/Chico are going back into the existing parking lot.  Make it a juxtaposition - petite emerald glass tower or something offsetting the faux-Spanish style that's taken over the area.  Make it classy eclectic.   Exclusive multi-tenant address for a bank HQs, financial brokerages, local company, etc.  Tear down most of strip with post office and rebuild close to east property line --- expand Polo Grill w/ outdoor park seating facing inland center --- turn to mini-ice skating rink in winter named Walt's Rink or something.  Build 2 story retail strip where current vacant Petty's/MJ space is w/ 2-3 additional office floors above --- parking below ground.  How about a small urban market, a larger L.L. Bean store and maybe a Bristol Seafood Restaurant in empty southeast corner w/ rooftop parking. Relocate electrical yard.  Make an upscale apartment w/ parking complex out of that mess of old medical plaza parking & concrete behind Chang's/Flemings.  Make their current locations part of the complex bottom floor.  In the center building where Starbuck's and the garden is --- put in a Hanson brewpub restaurant with 2 stories/outdoor deck dining.  Something interesting. Junk the current office strip above retail in the long building w/ Walgreens.  Rebuild/renovate it and add a 2-story office complex above retail.  Build a little 2 level above ground, 1-2 below ground parking garage immediately north of the Utica Ave. entrance ramp -- hugging Utica up to the bank drive thru.  Remove the bank and Prosperity building and add a landmark circular 4-5 story, retail and restaurant building right on 21st & Utica - keep the Spanish/Italian style --- whatever it is.  Build a 16-20 story high end glass bejeweled condo tower above Sak's parking garage --- add another 2-stories of parking to base of garage.  There.  We're done here.  Of course, has to be a post-COVID boom.   
                   

Correct, none of the Vast Bank, Chico's, or Prosperity Bank properties are part of Utica Square, nor are they owned by Helmerich & Payne.  Making it even more complicated, they are each separately owned.  Vast Bank property is owned by Vast Bank.  The Chico's property is owned by someone else (not Helmerich & Payne; I think it might be owned by Bumgarner). Prosperity Bank property is owned by Prosperity Bank.
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« Reply #372 on: April 08, 2021, 03:15:56 pm »

Does anyone know where in Utica Square the Sakowitz boutique was located?
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« Reply #373 on: April 08, 2021, 03:19:40 pm »

Does anyone know where in Utica Square the Sakowitz boutique was located?

As far as I know the only Sakowitz was at Kensington Galleria. It was the original anchor department store. After Sakowitz closed the store became a Dillards.
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« Reply #374 on: April 08, 2021, 04:11:20 pm »

Does anyone know where in Utica Square the Sakowitz boutique was located?

Like swake said, they were at Kensington. They were in trouble when they opened in either '83 or '84 and were gone in late '85 when the chain went bankrupt. They were a victim of the oil bust back then.

Good article from the NY Times August 2 1985

https://www.nytimes.com/1985/08/02/business/the-downfall-of-sakowitz.html

Only one other business I remember being that short lived in Tulsa was when Skagg's Alpha Beta became Jewell Osco for about a year before turning into either Skagg's Albertson's or just Albertson's.
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