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May 26, 2019, 05:51:35 am
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Author Topic: Downtown Development Overview  (Read 291347 times)
TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #465 on: February 12, 2016, 09:28:05 am »

Quote
City plans major road rehab, will make Cheyenne and Boulder avenues downtown two-way
Projects will take place in phases over the coming years.


Posted: Friday, February 12, 2016 12:01 am | Updated: 1:18 am, Fri Feb 12, 2016.
By JARREL WADE World Staff Writer | 3 comments
Boulder and Cheyenne avenues downtown will change to two-way streets in coming years, city officials said Thursday.
The reconstruction and rehabilitation of both roadways will include work on sidewalks and infrastructure, incorporating aspects of the city’s Complete Streets policy, said Paul Zachary, the city’s director of engineering services.
Connectivity along the corridor from downtown to Veterans Park and the Arkansas River would be multimodal, including access for cars, bicycles, pedestrians and public transit.
The change to two-way traffic would help access between downtown and the Gathering Place for Tulsa park on Riverside Drive, Zachary said.
The Complete Streets design elements also include landscaping and lighting.
Zachary reported to Tulsa city councilors that the road construction and signs would be done in several phases.
The start date for downtown road construction will depend on getting final decisions on the approach to the project, but Zachary said work is slated to begin this year on Fifth Street, with additional phases taking at least several years to complete.
If approved as currently designed, Boulder Avenue and then Cheyenne Avenue would change to two-way configurations from First Street to 10th Street.
The plan came from traffic studies performed in 1997 that cited the need for Boulder Avenue to be two-way due to parking facilities and general downtown access, Zachary said.
“It specifically identified Boulder Avenue as a two-way, two-lane street in each direction,” he said.
Recent studies on traffic counts have backed up the nearly 20-year-old study, Zachary said.
Zachary said the funding comes substantially from the Improve Our Tulsa tax but would include other sources.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/government/city-plans-major-road-rehab-will-make-cheyenne-and-boulder/article_530fdc74-855f-54e0-95de-0970d1fea2d3.html
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Tulsasaurus Rex
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« Reply #466 on: February 12, 2016, 11:49:34 am »

"The plan came from traffic studies performed in 1997 that cited the need for Boulder Avenue to be two-way due to parking facilities and general downtown access, Zachary said."

It took 20 years for them to implement a street repair?
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carltonplace
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« Reply #467 on: February 12, 2016, 01:43:46 pm »

It took 20 years for them to implement a street repair?

I know...who thought they could implement so quickly?
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PonderInc
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« Reply #468 on: February 12, 2016, 02:34:00 pm »

It took 20 years for Charles Hardt to retire.  Years ago, the quote I heard was that he said he would change downtown streets to two-way "over my dead body."  So, yay, he finally retired.  Now the constraint is $$.  Over the years, there's been some 3rd Penny sales tax money for this, but only enough to do a couple streets at a time.  As it turns out, installing signalized intersections and signage is ridiculously expensive, and you have to do this at every block.  

Sadly, once they make the streets two way, it appears they leave the timing "one way."  Because if you drive on the new direction, you'll hit every red light on every block.  Why can't downtown just have sensors like other intersections in town, so if you're the only vehicle there at 10 PM on a Tuesday, you don't have to sit through all the lights?
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Townsend
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« Reply #469 on: February 12, 2016, 02:57:44 pm »


Sadly, once they make the streets two way, it appears they leave the timing "one way."  Because if you drive on the new direction, you'll hit every red light on every block.  Why can't downtown just have sensors like other intersections in town, so if you're the only vehicle there at 10 PM on a Tuesday, you don't have to sit through all the lights?

It's so you can window-shop while you are stopped at the intersections.  It's a retailer conspiracy.
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Red Arrow
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« Reply #470 on: February 12, 2016, 03:20:52 pm »

It's so you can window-shop while you are stopped at the intersections.  It's a retailer conspiracy.

It also gives one time to answer their text messages.

« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 03:31:04 pm by Red Arrow » Logged

 
Townsend
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« Reply #471 on: February 12, 2016, 03:24:34 pm »

It also give one time to answer their text messages.

Damned fine point, Red.  Damned fine
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Red Arrow
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« Reply #472 on: February 12, 2016, 03:30:28 pm »

Sadly, once they make the streets two way, it appears they leave the timing "one way."  Because if you drive on the new direction, you'll hit every red light on every block.

How would you have them timed when there is traffic in both directions?  I don't believe it possible to keep both directions moving at the same time.

Quote
 Why can't downtown just have sensors like other intersections in town, so if you're the only vehicle there at 10 PM on a Tuesday, you don't have to sit through all the lights?
Downtown does not  have a monopoly on waiting at a light with no traffic.  The traffic lights on Memorial between 101st and 111th often let scores of nonexistent cars out of shopping areas while traffic on Memorial waits.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 03:34:56 pm by Red Arrow » Logged

 
PonderInc
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« Reply #473 on: February 12, 2016, 03:51:03 pm »

How would you have them timed when there is traffic in both directions?  I don't believe it possible to keep both directions moving at the same time.
You use sensors (that respond to bikes, too).  That way, when there's lots of southbound traffic, the lights stay green longer in that direction.  When there's lots of northbound traffic, the lights stay green longer in that direction, etc, etc.  Typically downtown traffic has a primary flow at any given time.  People are either coming in or going out based on workday schedule, concerts, ballgames, etc.  Why not just respond to these natural ebbs and flows as they occur, rather than relying on timers?
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cynical
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« Reply #474 on: February 13, 2016, 10:14:48 am »

Sensor-controlled signals are just stop signs with pretty lights. Everyone stops.

For sheer entertainment value, they should just remove all of the controls like they do in many European intersections. A default rule ("priority of the right") is used to sort out responsibility for the damages. This has the advantage of being far more libertarian than Big Gubmint traffic control devices. Incidentally, we already have that as a default rule, but almost no one is aware of it. 47 OS Sec. 11-401(B) provides that "When two vehicles enter or approach an intersection from different highways at approximately the same time, except as provided in subsection A of this section, the driver of the vehicle on the left shall yield the right-of-way to the vehicle on the right." Subsection A establishes a hierarchy of different roads, with the highways having priority over county roads, etc. Since downtown streets look about the same, we don't need to fuss over such details. Just let 'er rip and sell tickets.

Merchants could provide sidewalk cafe tables so that customers could enjoy the demolition derby. With appropriate protections in place, of course.

Seriously, the advantage to going 2-way on a street with one-way synchronization is that drivers at least have the option of going the other way if it is more convenient than going two or more blocks out of their way. They have to stop, but not for very long. Meanwhile, traffic flow is still facilitated by the synchronized lights, assuming that the city bothers to maintain them.

You use sensors (that respond to bikes, too).  That way, when there's lots of southbound traffic, the lights stay green longer in that direction.  When there's lots of northbound traffic, the lights stay green longer in that direction, etc, etc.  Typically downtown traffic has a primary flow at any given time.  People are either coming in or going out based on workday schedule, concerts, ballgames, etc.  Why not just respond to these natural ebbs and flows as they occur, rather than relying on timers?
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Bamboo World
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« Reply #475 on: February 13, 2016, 02:53:13 pm »

For sheer entertainment value, they should just remove all of the controls like they do in many European intersections. A default rule ("priority of the right") is used to sort out responsibility for the damages. This has the advantage of being far more libertarian than Big Gubmint traffic control devices. Incidentally, we already have that as a default rule, but almost no one is aware of it. 47 OS Sec. 11-401(B) provides that "When two vehicles enter or approach an intersection from different highways at approximately the same time, except as provided in subsection A of this section, the driver of the vehicle on the left shall yield the right-of-way to the vehicle on the right." Subsection A establishes a hierarchy of different roads, with the highways having priority over county roads, etc. Since downtown streets look about the same, we don't need to fuss over such details. Just let 'er rip and sell tickets.

Merchants could provide sidewalk cafe tables so that customers could enjoy the demolition derby...

Seriously, the advantage to going 2-way on a street with one-way synchronization is that drivers at least have the option of going the other way if it is more convenient than going two or more blocks out of their way. They have to stop, but not for very long. Meanwhile, traffic flow is still facilitated by the synchronized lights, assuming that the city bothers to maintain them.

The City could try 4-way stops and see how traffic flows before spending big bucks on synchronized lights at every intersection.  That's what was done a few years ago on Fourth Street:

at Denver Ave

at Cheyenne

at Boulder

at Main

at Boston

at Cincinnati

And simple stop signs are used now at several intersections in the Mathew B. Reconciliation Way Arts District, the Greenwood area, at Third and Kenosha, at Twelfth and Houston, etc.  I've seen very few wrecks at the all-way stops.

The timing of the signals downtown is designed for smooth traffic flow on the one-way pairs with access to/from the IDL, such as 1st/2nd, 7th/8th, and Cincinnati/Detroit.  
« Last Edit: February 13, 2016, 03:01:00 pm by Bamboo World » Logged
carltonplace
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« Reply #476 on: February 15, 2016, 07:50:39 am »

It took 20 years for Charles Hardt to retire.  Years ago, the quote I heard was that he said he would change downtown streets to two-way "over my dead body."  So, yay, he finally retired.  Now the constraint is $$.  Over the years, there's been some 3rd Penny sales tax money for this, but only enough to do a couple streets at a time.  As it turns out, installing signalized intersections and signage is ridiculously expensive, and you have to do this at every block.  

Sadly, once they make the streets two way, it appears they leave the timing "one way."  Because if you drive on the new direction, you'll hit every red light on every block.  Why can't downtown just have sensors like other intersections in town, so if you're the only vehicle there at 10 PM on a Tuesday, you don't have to sit through all the lights?

Boulder and Cheyenne have 16 existing traffic light controlled intersections between them that would have to be changed. If they just do Boulder Ave first then that is only 8. I'll never understand why they made Boulder a one way street, it makes no sense.
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Ibanez
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« Reply #477 on: February 15, 2016, 02:32:11 pm »

How would you have them timed when there is traffic in both directions?  I don't believe it possible to keep both directions moving at the same time.
Downtown does not  have a monopoly on waiting at a light with no traffic.  The traffic lights on Memorial between 101st and 111th often let scores of nonexistent cars out of shopping areas while traffic on Memorial waits.

I fear it will soon be like that all the way to 151st since someone in the City of Bixby seems hell bent on installing traffic lights every 150 feet along Memorial.
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Conan71
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« Reply #478 on: February 15, 2016, 02:57:26 pm »

I fear it will soon be like that all the way to 151st since someone in the City of Bixby seems hell bent on installing traffic lights every 150 feet along Memorial.

Between 91st & 111th on Memorial is bucking awful.  I feel sorry for people who have to drive that every day.
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« Reply #479 on: February 15, 2016, 04:03:42 pm »

It also gives one time to answer their text messages.




Isn't that supposed to be illegal now?   Guess not...I see just as many texting as before...
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