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Author Topic: Downtown Development Overview  (Read 288779 times)
TheArtist
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« Reply #435 on: February 01, 2016, 04:53:48 pm »

Thanks for the history and info! I guess it won't really be a great option for converting back to a mall, but it still would be cheaper than a brand new $200+ million development if the owners ever wanted to diversify again. If I were them I would at least talk to some retail experts and potentially Nelson about creating destination retail downtown.

There is so much wasted potential downtown and then a lot of developments get thrown out because they are cost-prohibitive (I could see Santa Fe being scaled back substantially, especially the parking garage). Meanwhile there is still plenty of unused building space and empty lots owned by people wanting to cash in years down the line.

One of the main reasons there is a renaissance in people moving back to downtown and a lot of us new shops and restaurants opening is because we want to live in and help create enjoyable, walkable, pedestrian friendly urban spaces, on the streets and sidewalks like you can see everywhere else on the planet.  An indoor, suburban style shopping mall disconnected from any street life is the antithesis of that and what we want to get away from.  70's and 80s downtown buildings and developments were a bomb for a reason imho.  The fad was to "turn your back back to and hide away inside from the scary old city/world outside" ala Logans Run.  That's NOT what people want in a downtown anymore.  What they do want are real cities that look like and work like real cities.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2016, 04:58:31 pm by TheArtist » Logged

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« Reply #436 on: February 02, 2016, 07:32:29 am »

Santa Fe Square should add more retail to make it more of a destination/retail hub if they succeed. However, didn't the BOK tower used to be somewhat of a mall back when they had the ice skating rink and it all declined and went under after the 80's oil bust and now is still mostly empty? If there is a demand to put a lot of retail downtown (enough to justify the $200+ million Santa Fe Square development), why wouldn't the BOK tower work? Tons of empty retail/office space downtown as-is. Existing parking garage which is under-utilized during weekends and within a few blocks of many of the new apartments going in.

I can understand the Boxyard (Cheaper and more versatile to allow for unique startups, similar to the "Made"/pop-up stores at 5th and Boston) and on a scale which fits the area right now. Santa Fe Square looks great and would definitely improve the walkability of the area. I wonder if it is too much for the near future.

Apples and oranges. The BOK was an indoor suburban type mall (now offices and fitness center) and Santa Fe Square will be integrated into the Blue Dome as a walkable destination.
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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #437 on: February 02, 2016, 08:26:40 am »

Also worth noting - The Boxcars is NOT a cheaper development. From what I have heard, they will be the most expensive retail spaces downtown, and rivaling the most expensive retail spaces in town.

They should be cheaper to build than a typical building. Also, cheaper baseline rent for a startup to get a 320 square foot container ($750/month) than to rent an entire ~1500 ft2 place which are typically well over $2000/month. So perhaps more expensive per square foot, but cheaper overall and good for startups who won't need as much room.
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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #438 on: February 02, 2016, 08:34:16 am »

One of the main reasons there is a renaissance in people moving back to downtown and a lot of us new shops and restaurants opening is because we want to live in and help create enjoyable, walkable, pedestrian friendly urban spaces, on the streets and sidewalks like you can see everywhere else on the planet.  An indoor, suburban style shopping mall disconnected from any street life is the antithesis of that and what we want to get away from.  70's and 80s downtown buildings and developments were a bomb for a reason imho.  The fad was to "turn your back back to and hide away inside from the scary old city/world outside" ala Logans Run.  That's NOT what people want in a downtown anymore.  What they do want are real cities that look like and work like real cities.

I agree, but Woodland Hills Mall and Utica Square are suburban style malls that are filled with cars and shoppers while many downtown retail places remain somewhat sparse. There is still a big market for a suburban style malls in Tulsa and based on the downsizing/purchase of Williams and talk of a brand new $200 million investment (even if it focuses on outside), making that space into a premium mall could siphon some of those dollars from other malls around the area and create a unique experience that those couldn't compete with. It could bring in a different demographic and boost downtown a bit more. There are only so many people in Tulsa who want a real vibrant/walkable downtown. Most just want certain stores and easy parking (which the BOK Tower has, especially on weekends). With the BOK center, many more of those people make it to downtown and a mall would give them an excuse to stick around.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 08:36:37 am by TulsaGoldenHurriCAN » Logged
TheArtist
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« Reply #439 on: February 02, 2016, 08:51:08 am »

I agree, but Woodland Hills Mall and Utica Square are suburban style malls that are filled with cars and shoppers while many downtown retail places remain somewhat sparse. There is still a big market for a suburban style malls in Tulsa and based on the downsizing/purchase of Williams and talk of a brand new $200 million investment (even if it focuses on outside), making that space into a premium mall could siphon some of those dollars from other malls around the area and create a unique experience that those couldn't compete with. It could bring in a different demographic and boost downtown a bit more. There are only so many people in Tulsa who want a real vibrant/walkable downtown. Most just want certain stores and easy parking (which the BOK Tower has, especially on weekends). With the BOK center, many more of those people make it to downtown and a mall would give them an excuse to stick around.

I think there is still a big market for urban style retail in downtown.  We just don't have it yet.  A half dozen shops scattered around disparate areas of downtown is not going to do squat.  What we need is an area with hundreds of stores and restaurants in a pedestrian lively/friendly area.  Indeed there are plenty of suburban style mall and strip mall type options in Tulsa for those who want that, but there are ever more people wanting urban retail spaces and the best we have are the small strips along Cherry Street and Brookside.  If we want to see good growth downtown getting a good urban setting going would be just the catalyst.  Putting in an enclosed suburban shopping center in downtown that people drive to, that is disconnected from the streetscape  and then stay isolated inside, does not make for a lively downtown.  It didn't do that back in the day and it wouldn't today either.  
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 08:53:37 am by TheArtist » Logged

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« Reply #440 on: February 02, 2016, 11:22:09 am »

...making that space into a premium mall could siphon some of those dollars from other malls around the area and create a unique experience that those couldn't compete with. It could bring in a different demographic and boost downtown a bit more. There are only so many people in Tulsa who want a real vibrant/walkable downtown. Most just want certain stores and easy parking (which the BOK Tower has, especially on weekends). With the BOK center, many more of those people make it to downtown and a mall would give them an excuse to stick around.

Another difference that's being overlooked, though, is that Santa Fe Square is not a mall. It's a 600,000 square foot mixed-use project with 80,000 square feet of retail space. Retail only makes up 13.3% of the development.

The remaining 86.6% is composed of: a) A 105-room hotel; b) 170,000 square feet of office space; c) 291 apartments; and d) a 1450-stall parking garage.
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« Reply #441 on: February 02, 2016, 11:40:11 am »

Another difference that's being overlooked, though, is that Santa Fe Square is not a mall. It's a 600,000 square foot mixed-use project with 80,000 square feet of retail space. Retail only makes up 13.3% of the development.

The remaining 86.6% is composed of: a) A 105-room hotel; b) 170,000 square feet of office space; c) 291 apartments; and d) a 1450-stall parking garage.

The BOK Tower is also not a mall. It is also mixed use.

There still remains plenty of vacant office and retail space downtown and although the demand for hotels remains high at peak times, there are 5+ planned. I am all for it and hope it gets built. I was just wondering why existing retail spaces won't work. I see plenty of vacant store fronts facing the streets all around downtown and plenty of listings for retail/office space.
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« Reply #442 on: February 02, 2016, 11:56:44 am »

Another difference that's being overlooked, though, is that Santa Fe Square is not a mall. It's a 600,000 square foot mixed-use project with 80,000 square feet of retail space. Retail only makes up 13.3% of the development.

The remaining 86.6% is composed of: a) A 105-room hotel; b) 170,000 square feet of office space; c) 291 apartments; and d) a 1450-stall parking garage.

The retail might only make up 13.3% of the development, but if it is anything like urban centers around the country, often times the street-facing retail in dense urban areas pay the majority of the rent of 3-4 story buildings. In one place I stayed at in West Village, the upper 3 floors of a small 4-story corner building rented for about $4000/month while the bottom floor was over $20k/mo.
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« Reply #443 on: February 02, 2016, 12:37:12 pm »

The retail might only make up 13.3% of the development, but if it is anything like urban centers around the country, often times the street-facing retail in dense urban areas pay the majority of the rent of 3-4 story buildings. In one place I stayed at in West Village, the upper 3 floors of a small 4-story corner building rented for about $4000/month while the bottom floor was over $20k/mo.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves. What happens in Manhattan real estate generally doesn't translate to the rest of the continent. 1/4 owning a car, if you limit it to below the park that number drops to 15%. Floods of people coming in without cars to the already dense urban area on a daily basis. Huge throngs of tourists. Add in a willingness to build UP on a continuous basis for 140 years, and yeah... in select areas the ground floor is $3,000/sq.

Huge captive audience with a limited supply of ground floor retail.  That's why 5th Ave. and Madison Ave. are the #1 and #2 most expensive places for retail. Throw in Time's Square for fun, and you have 3 of the top 10 most expensive retail in the US. Many other areas are really high too... but from the top it drops way, WAY, WAAAAAY down quickly. Outside of NYC there isn't a space consistent renting above $500/sq. Outside of the top 5, there isn't anywhere above $200.

Including Tulsa.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 02:33:11 pm by cannon_fodder » Logged

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« Reply #444 on: February 02, 2016, 02:17:38 pm »

Lets not get ahead of ourselves. What happens in Manhattan real estate generally doesn't translate to the rest of the continent.


I am talking about proportions, not just the dollar amount. I said " often times the street-facing retail in dense urban areas pay the majority of the rent of 3-4 story buildings." That is true in many cities. My apologies for listing West Village as an example, but the point was ground floor retail brought in more than the upper 3 stories for the same square footage. Obviously Tulsa is not at that density yet and will be far lower dollar amounts.
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« Reply #445 on: February 02, 2016, 04:58:35 pm »

I am talking about proportions, not just the dollar amount. I said " often times the street-facing retail in dense urban areas pay the majority of the rent of 3-4 story buildings." That is true in many cities. My apologies for listing West Village as an example, but the point was ground floor retail brought in more than the upper 3 stories for the same square footage. Obviously Tulsa is not at that density yet and will be far lower dollar amounts.

I would imagine it would nearly be inverse here. Rents downtown I would guess start around $1.50/sq/ft/month. $1,000 for about 700 sq ft sounds about right if not on the low. It obviously goes up from there. To equate to commercial space that is $18/sf. That's topping out in most cases for most buildings downtown I would think. I understand what you are saying, but the dynamics in Tulsa are no where near that scanario. In Bartlesville it's even more exacerbated. I remember several years ago they couldn't find takers for downtown commercial space @ $7/sf on the main street. At the same time residential space above those same spaces were going for over $12/sf. There seems to be a far greater demand for residential space downtown than commercial it would seem. Hopefully that bodes well for both communities.
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« Reply #446 on: February 02, 2016, 07:03:17 pm »

Loved the mall in the BOK tower.  There was a 1979 movie "The Electric Horseman" which starred Robert Redford, Willie Nelson, Jane Fonda and Valerie Perrine which was filmed in Tulsa and included some great scenes of the mall, including the ice rink.  That was a great space which is really missed.
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« Reply #447 on: February 02, 2016, 07:49:22 pm »

The BOK Tower is also not a mall. It is also mixed use.

There still remains plenty of vacant office and retail space downtown and although the demand for hotels remains high at peak times, there are 5+ planned. I am all for it and hope it gets built. I was just wondering why existing retail spaces won't work. I see plenty of vacant store fronts facing the streets all around downtown and plenty of listings for retail/office space.

For retail to work downtown you will need both a concentration of it and foot traffic.  

A concentration of it so that an area becomes a shopping destination.  One or two shops here and there will struggle, thats why you see so many empty spaces because its tough being the first few in. (trust me I know)  There is a lot of land out on Highway 75 towards Glenpool (empty shop spaces) but if you get a concentration of them like Tulsa Hills your better off than if your some random store here and there along the highway.  

Foot traffic, in a downtown environment people expect it to be urban and pedestrian.  It's attractive to have lots of people out walking down a street, which attracts more people and businesses and more businesses can attract more people, etc.  Bustling sidewalks are the "highways full of cars" of an urban area.

But again if you have say parking right next to to many spread out things, it cuts down on pedestrians which cuts down on that attractor, which hurts businesses, which are trying to compete with suburban type developments which are cheaper because they are not having to pay for as expensive parking costs or building costs etc. etc.

If we had as trip of retail and restaurants like Brookside or Cherry Street that would be a good start.  Places like Denver for instance zone certain downtown streets to encourage them to be urban retail, transit and pedestrian friendly, and some streets not.   You don't want office space and dead zones between too many shops for again that breaks up the concentration and pedestrian nature, those go on the "not" retail streets.  You wouldn't put a Kohls of in the middle of a mile of homes, then another store over by some apartments, then another in an industrial area, another by a field, etc. and wonder why they are not doing as well as Tulsa Hills or the mall where there are lots of shops and restaurants all together.  But that is exactly what is happening downtown.  A smattering of shops split up by blank walls, empty spaces, office spaces, living, etc.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 07:52:10 pm by TheArtist » Logged

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« Reply #448 on: February 02, 2016, 08:59:35 pm »

For retail to work downtown you will need both a concentration of it and foot traffic.  
 

Balderdash!!!

All you need is a massive monolithic structure and acres and acres of surface parking which 75% goes un-used 99% of the year.
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« Reply #449 on: February 02, 2016, 10:12:59 pm »

Balderdash!!!
All you need is a massive monolithic structure and acres and acres of surface parking which 75% goes un-used 99% of the year.

That must be why the Christmas stuff is put out before Halloween instead of waiting for Thanksgiving.
 
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