Downtown Development Overview

[Red Arrow]

So, Townsend, from that vantage point, I'm guessing that you (and Ibanez and Hoss and erfalf and Red Arrow) do NOT feel as though the OKPOP museum building is giving you a hug across right field?

To me it has all the grace of a Pontiac Aztec.

[swake]

I think that's how it is currently designed. At least, that's how it appears from the renderings above.

It's a (or appears to be a) very nice building representing an architectural style not really seen in Tulsa. It's certainly much better looking than the other proposal.

It's a very European style merging old and new.

[Bamboo World]

I like [the OKPOP design], though the scale seems off for the Brady District.  Something 4 stories would be less overpowering than 6 stories as shown.
 
Is it worth keeping the Brady looking like a brick warehouse district even with the new development or should it not be restricted?

Something mixed-use would be better for this site.  Hopefully the final design has more brick.

Hmmm....

Four stories, mixed-use with retail at sidewalk level, more brick to blend with the existing warehouse district...

Something like this proposal?

[dbacksfan 2.0]

Will go well with this.

you know, if you take some sand from the riverbed, and built a couple of arched flat sided mounds on either side with a shallow valley in the middle............

[carltonplace]

I think it's amazing that our downtown has progressed to the point that we get to argue about what goes where instead of begging and wishing that someone would just build something already.

I like the OK POP design, it is iconic and unique, but I really want it to be next the AHHA for simple arts district cohesion.

[swake]

I think it's amazing that our downtown has progressed to the point that we get to argue about what goes where instead of begging and wishing that someone would just build something already.

I like the OK POP design, it is iconic and unique, but I really want it to be next the AHHA for simple arts district cohesion.

I agree that is a better location.

Now I don't like the design of the BC Franklin building or the fact it's mostly office space. It's a great idea to honor Mr Franklin but that building is pretty ugly and a building that large and monolithic would block views of and from the stadium. Plus that much office space in that location in the middle of an entertainment district that would be dead at night and on weekends is a bad idea. There are other, better, lots in Greenwood for this building, hopefully with a little better design. Really, both projects would be better elsewhere. That lot should be hotel and/or residential space above commercial.

[davideinstein]

I think it's amazing that our downtown has progressed to the point that we get to argue about what goes where instead of begging and wishing that someone would just build something already.

I like the OK POP design, it is iconic and unique, but I really want it to be next the AHHA for simple arts district cohesion.

True story.

[Bamboo World]

There are other, better, lots in Greenwood for this [proposed B.C. Franklin] building, hopefully with a little better design. Really, both [the B.C. Franklin and the OKPOP] would be better elsewhere. That lot [along Elgin across from ONEOK Field] should be hotel and/or residential space above commercial.

2008 proposal:  The Lofts @ 120 - residential above commercial

2013 proposal:  hotel rooms above office above retail above parking

Housing is what the district needs to become a true neighborhood, not a museum about popular culture, and not a nine-story building containing mostly office space.  Housing should be woven into the district wherever feasible and possible, especially wherever parking garages are built.

Of the four proposals I've seen for the TDA Elgin site since 2008, I think The Lofts @ 120 is still the best.

OKPOP would work better on the BOK parking lot site along Archer.  It's a waste of the TDA Elgin site to construct a six-story museum tower with large areas of blank walls facing ONEOK Field.

[swake]

2008 proposal:  The Lofts @ 120 - residential above commercial

2013 proposal:  hotel rooms above office above retail above parking

Housing is what the district needs to become a true neighborhood, not a museum about popular culture, and not a nine-story building containing mostly office space.  Housing should be woven into the district wherever feasible and possible, especially wherever parking garages are built.

Of the four proposals I've seen for the TDA Elgin site since 2008, I think The Lofts @ 120 is still the best.

OKPOP would work better on the BOK parking lot site along Archer.  It's a waste of the TDA Elgin site to construct a six-story museum tower with large areas of blank walls facing ONEOK Field.

I agree, Pop needs to be at the original location and the Franklin building should be either next to the train tracks (no one wants freight trains passing 50' from their bed at 2:00 am) or maybe even north of the IDL on some of the empty OSU land. North of the IDL would still be a walkable office from a residence in the Brady, which is good.

[Bamboo World]

Rumor has it OK Pop is also considering the lot across from 46 Bar, directly south of the Brady Theater. That would serve as a neat bookend to Brady and bring the surrounding empty/under used buildings under pressure to develop sooner rather than later.  The lot across from the Ballpark is already under pressure to develop sooner.

I have no strong opinion on any of the three sites for the OK Pop, but I think the original BOK location would be best for the reasons mentioned above. Let commercial interests take advantage of the Ballpark traffic. The museum is a draw unto itself.

I think the BOK parking lot location is the best (of the three you mentioned).  According to the Tulsa World, the Oklahoma Historical Society and the George Kaiser Family Foundation want to avoid creating "legal and political difficulties" with a land-for-dedicated-parking swap.

My suggestion:  BOK could split its parking lot and sell a portion on the east side to OKPOP while retaining a portion on the west side for BOK parking and for future mixed-use development.  A simple 60-40 split would provide 54,000 sq ft for OKPOP (which is 28% more land than the TDA Elgin Avenue site).  36,000 square feet would be reserved for BOK parking and future development. 

Assuming, for the sake of this discussion, that the Tulsa County Assessor's fair market values are truly "fair" and proportional, the value of 60% of BOK's parking lot would be $687,000 (or $194,000 less than the value of TDA's Elgin site).  28% more land for $194,000 less sounds like a good deal to me (for a public museum operated by the financially pinched State of Oklahoma).

The Artist mentioned that museums require generous expanses of blank wall space for displays.  That's correct, and the BOK parking lot site would allow opportunities for blank walls and a parking garage to face the railroad tracks and the Cincinnati bridge abutment.  More active and open facades could face the streets.  With a simple 60-40 split, OKPOP would have 180 feet of frontage along Archer and 300 feet along Cincinnati.  I think the slope of Cincinnati would provide fairly easy access to more than one level of a parking garage.  Any vehicular entries/exits along Cincinnati would work well with the one-way traffic as it is now, and access points wouldn't be affected very much if the City wanted to convert to two-way traffic in the future (because the west lanes adjacent to the garage still would be south-bound lanes).

Housing would fit nicely on BOK's 40% of the block, along Boston, perhaps with some retail space at the corner of Archer.  Depending on how much parking BOK wants/needs, it could be in a garage below and behind the housing.  It would make sense for BOK to share its parking garage with the housing above, because BOK's workforce demand will peak during the daytime Mon-Fri, when the demand for residential parking is lowest.  Housing would fit nicely along Archer, on the upper stories of OKPOP, as well.  Apartments would provide "eyes on the street" and help utilize the OKPOP parking garage more efficiently.  Some OKPOP employees might choose to live there, walk a few feet to work, walk a few feet to restaurants, and walk four blocks to Reasor's in the PAC development on Third Street.  Who knows?

[johrasephoenix]

The state legislators are really looking a gift horse in the mouth when they nixed the BOK land gift...

Can that much new, Class A office space get pre-leased?  Class A rents at the Williams Tower II & III are $16ish/sf (mortgage all paid off) and its hard for new construction to compete with that.  Do we have any big anchor corporate tenants looking to move downtown from the burbs or South Tulsa?  It's kind of robbing Peter to pay Paul if we move one big corporate tenant from one downtown skyscraper to another. 

That said, I hear there is unmet demand for Class A office downtown especially in the Brady.  But unless they can prelease it nothing is going to get built. 

[Bamboo World]

The state legislators are really looking a gift horse in the mouth when they nixed the BOK land gift...

It wasn't really a "gift" offer, but an exchange of land for BOK parking spaces in OKPOP's future garage.

The OHS's and the GKFF's apprehension about the "gift" (or trade) is understandable, in my opinion.

However, if BOK sold a portion of its parking lot to the OHS at a fair market value (or less), then leased spaces in the OKPOP garage at a fair market rate (or higher), that would be better than a wink and nod "gift."  Also, if BOK kept a portion of its parking lot for BOK use, then BOK would have some surface parking, as they do now.  A separate BOK garage could be built later.

[johrasephoenix]

Is that Residence Inn at 5th & Boulder by Anish Hotels still happening?  It looks like they've laid the foundation but I walk by there all the time and never see anyone on the site...  The construction fence has literally fallen over and nobody has even set it back up.

[Bamboo World]

Is that Residence Inn at 5th & Boulder by Anish Hotels still happening?  It looks like they've laid the foundation but I walk by there all the time and never see anyone on the site...  The construction fence has literally fallen over and nobody has even set it back up.

I'm not a hotel construction expert, self-appointed or otherwise, but I walk by 5th & Boulder frequently.  Did you mean 5th & Denver or 5th & Cheyenne?  I'm not aware of any hotel construction at 5th & Boulder.

This morning I saw about eight men on the construction site near 5th & Cheyenne, but I don't know what work they were doing there -- preparing for some concrete* placement, perhaps.

*Note:  I'm not a concrete expert, self-appointed or otherwise.  However, I do know the difference between contraction and expansion.  Also, I know the purpose of control joints (not to be confused with expansion joints, which are not the same as control joints).
 

[LeGenDz]

You're right. The hotel is on 5th and Cheyenne.