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Author Topic: Downtown Development Overview  (Read 434837 times)
Townsend
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« Reply #1275 on: October 05, 2018, 11:07:30 am »



Interesting predicament by TDA. Do they hold to their guns and try to force developer to include retail on ground floor? They haven't always required that for developments. They do lose quite a bit of control/say in the process if they aren't providing the subsidized development loan.

So was this a "look at all our shiny things with ground level retail" to get it approved?
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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #1276 on: October 05, 2018, 11:36:41 am »

So was this a "look at all our shiny things with ground level retail" to get it approved?

That's a good question. They do have the existing Hartford building and it sounds like they're still looking for tenants. Retail space has been saturated downtown. Did they just recently realize the number of planned retail spaces going in?

They had a big "food court" planned that they're scrapping. That sounded a bit like the new Mother Road Market (https://www.facebook.com/motherroadmarket/) concept. For that part of it, maybe they decided it's too similar to that and there's a high number of restaurants in downtown already.

I get that there's not a lot of easy overlap between a food court and living space, but I wish more developers would create modular spaces that can be residential now, but capable of being work-live spaces or even converted to retail/office space if needed. Metro lofts did it well, visible on their ground floor and even available on other floors (http://www.metroatbrady.com/floorplans-and-pricing/1-bed/12006). Studios with frameless cabinetry along the walls. Looks sleek/modern but can be more expensive and not what most renters expect and tough to work for many businesses.

Maybe they want to make ground level common amenities because those things are high demand by tenants (gym, pool, lounge, etc), especially at premium price points. Those things get tenants in the door and are sparsely used. I'm guessing most tenants don't really want a big food court or cell phone store/hair salon downstairs.
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MostSeriousness
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« Reply #1277 on: October 05, 2018, 11:38:52 am »

I understand and hope for a retail-oriented solution. But didn't the TDA money basically just come down to affordable living rates? That was the issue with the Adams Building, and they got funding as well.
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TheArtist
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« Reply #1278 on: October 05, 2018, 01:21:53 pm »

The only way retail might work in this space is if there were more retail in whatever would go across from it.  If not, no.  But the corollary is that if this building does not have retail in it, then there is no need to put more ground floor retail in any building that goes in across from it for you need to have it on both sides (some rare exceptions excluded).

So far I don't think the developers/property owners or the people at city hall really want retail downtown for they aren't doing the things that would allow for it to thrive and be successful.

Reminds me of a roommate of many years ago who was "down on his luck" and I loaned him a spare room to help him get back on his feet.  This was one of those times when you learn a lesson "Sometimes people aren't just having an unlucky spell, they are the creators of their bad luck."  Got a job, lost it, got another good job, they were jerks so he quit, got another job it started snowing a bit and said it wasn't worth risking his life for just a job, hurt his finger on another job and couldn't work, etc. etc.   Always saying over and over that he wanted to work and wanted a good job.  Wasn't willing to do what it takes to get it and always had an excuse.  

Just like our downtown.  Oh we want retail, oh we want it so bad, and we say it over and over. We kinda sorta do some things here and there but when it comes down to it, we are not going to have it because we are not willing to do what it REALLY takes to get it.  We are not willing to put in the hard work and sacrifice it will take.  

* Retail does best, is competitive and worthy of investing in when there is an "unbroken" critical mass of it in a contiguous area. (Especially in a pedestrian oriented downtown type environment).  ((Rule of thumb, 6 contiguous blocks of retail to begin to make a successful retail area))

The developers can build retail spaces on the ground floor, but if a bank or a law firm or architecture firm, insurance agent, etc. wants a spot.... oh that developer or property owner doesn't care if those are low traffic generators that hurt retail... they are going to rent it out to whoever.  

But we want retail downtown right? Even the developers and property owners say it over and over.

One developer builds something with retail on the ground floor, then another builds something right across from it or next door that has no retail.   Boom, retail will struggle and won't work well in the first one.  

But we want retail downtown right? Even the developers and property owners say it over and over.

We make these fancy maps of different areas of downtown saying we want retail type development here, parks there, etc.  
1. We have areas like that now that ALREADY exist and they are not doing what it takes to get retail and activate the public parks.
2. Why would that new area be any different?  What will they do to ensure retail on the ground floor and not retail killers? If they are going to "activate" these new proposed parks, why not do the ones they already have near shops like mine that already exist and are busting their arses to make a go of it?

But we are not going to have urban zoning anywhere in the city, including downtown.  Especially not in downtown.
Or, we are also not willing to put incentives into an area to try and get retail into those areas.   
We aren't really willing to do anything other than go through a few motions and SAY we want retail.

And oh we say we want retail over and over, oh we say it with such passion with all our hearts and make it sound so believable. But, our "bad luck" is all of our own making.

« Last Edit: October 05, 2018, 01:26:50 pm by TheArtist » Logged

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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #1279 on: October 05, 2018, 02:58:52 pm »

The only way retail might work in this space is if there were more retail in whatever would go across from it.  If not, no.  But the corollary is that if this building does not have retail in it, then there is no need to put more ground floor retail in any building that goes in across from it for you need to have it on both sides (some rare exceptions excluded).

So far I don't think the developers/property owners or the people at city hall really want retail downtown for they aren't doing the things that would allow for it to thrive and be successful.

Reminds me of a roommate of many years ago who was "down on his luck" and I loaned him a spare room to help him get back on his feet.  This was one of those times when you learn a lesson "Sometimes people aren't just having an unlucky spell, they are the creators of their bad luck."  Got a job, lost it, got another good job, they were jerks so he quit, got another job it started snowing a bit and said it wasn't worth risking his life for just a job, hurt his finger on another job and couldn't work, etc. etc.   Always saying over and over that he wanted to work and wanted a good job.  Wasn't willing to do what it takes to get it and always had an excuse.  

Just like our downtown.  Oh we want retail, oh we want it so bad, and we say it over and over. We kinda sorta do some things here and there but when it comes down to it, we are not going to have it because we are not willing to do what it REALLY takes to get it.  We are not willing to put in the hard work and sacrifice it will take.  

* Retail does best, is competitive and worthy of investing in when there is an "unbroken" critical mass of it in a contiguous area. (Especially in a pedestrian oriented downtown type environment).  ((Rule of thumb, 6 contiguous blocks of retail to begin to make a successful retail area))

The developers can build retail spaces on the ground floor, but if a bank or a law firm or architecture firm, insurance agent, etc. wants a spot.... oh that developer or property owner doesn't care if those are low traffic generators that hurt retail... they are going to rent it out to whoever.  

But we want retail downtown right? Even the developers and property owners say it over and over.

One developer builds something with retail on the ground floor, then another builds something right across from it or next door that has no retail.   Boom, retail will struggle and won't work well in the first one.  

But we want retail downtown right? Even the developers and property owners say it over and over.

We make these fancy maps of different areas of downtown saying we want retail type development here, parks there, etc.  
1. We have areas like that now that ALREADY exist and they are not doing what it takes to get retail and activate the public parks.
2. Why would that new area be any different?  What will they do to ensure retail on the ground floor and not retail killers? If they are going to "activate" these new proposed parks, why not do the ones they already have near shops like mine that already exist and are busting their arses to make a go of it?

But we are not going to have urban zoning anywhere in the city, including downtown.  Especially not in downtown.
Or, we are also not willing to put incentives into an area to try and get retail into those areas.   
We aren't really willing to do anything other than go through a few motions and SAY we want retail.

And oh we say we want retail over and over, oh we say it with such passion with all our hearts and make it sound so believable. But, our "bad luck" is all of our own making.



I think city counselors (and often the TDA), mostly just care about sales tax revenue from new retail. It seems like TMAPC, TDA and certain counselors somewhat care about creating walkable areas but it's mostly symbolic and not the top priority. That's especially true with current codes/laws.

Tax revenue is #1 and new builds are better than remodels and retail is technically better than residential. keeping dirt moving for anything to get built is better than nothing so they'll gladly allow a CVS at 15th and Utica, a giant QT and super-Sonic at 15th and Lewis, wiping out a dozen businesses and old cottages (which officially ruins that intersection permanently).

It seems like more that many developers know how to play the game to get all the tax incentives they can by claiming "walkability" "mixed use" "street-level retail" etc. where in reality, they'll be cell phone stores if they're lucky or just business offices. The people "in charge" don't care enough about urban/walkability and the developers care about profit and the people planning out the "ideal downtown" don't have the power/money to make those visions happen.

The Box Yard seems like the best concentration of retail so far. They've created a lively place and it could be better when the large coffee/brewery place opens and then Santa Fe Square to really connect to Blue Dome. Seems like an ideal spot for retail businesses right now (unless a new owner wants to ruin what was a perfectly good concept under previous management like Dwelling Spaces!)
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DTowner
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« Reply #1280 on: October 05, 2018, 03:12:05 pm »

If TDA has provided itself with the protection it should have, then it should simply say “thank you very much, but no” and take back the subsidy for this project unless it is going to be built according to the plan that was approved.   If that means the project dies, then so be it.  At this point, we cannot afford to keep building mediocre projects that do not meet the goals we say we have - promoting a thriving, vibrant, walkable, self-sufficient, livable downtown.  With Santa Fe Square looking more and more like Place One 2.0 level disappointment, I do not want to see more mediocre developments subsidized by the taxpayers.  I want downtown development, I want lots of it and I want it now, but I’d rather wait a few more years and get better projects that fulfill what we say are our goals than subsidizing things that keep coming up woefully short.

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« Reply #1281 on: October 05, 2018, 03:16:32 pm »

It seems like retail gets shifted from one part of town to another and it sucks life out of one area while major intersections, big chains and top-notch stores stay somewhat stable.

Harvard Avenue between 11th and 21st used to be a pretty hopping spot for antique shops and many more. Same with 15th from Harvard to BA, sort of a mini-Cherry St. While there's still quite a few places, most retail places shut down within a year or two or have moved and seems like there are more vacancies than open stores you can shop at and far more non-shoppable stores. That's the partially the cost of online shopping, partially the centralization of more popular shopping districts/malls, but mostly just America choosing national chains over locally owned shops. 41st and Yale and 21st and Yale areas have tons of traffic and shoppers using those mega hubs while the old shopping areas have died out.

Then there's only so many unique local places that can be successful to go around... Tulsa Arts District's success pulls tenants from the Deco District or Blue Dome. Whittier and Cherry Street pull tenants from areas like 15th/21st and Harvard. Mother Road Market is great but will definitely make a unique downtown food court a tough task as it pools together 17 of the best local food vendors.

I am glad certain collectives are doing well and hope that in time some more walkable areas will develop, but not expecting too much too soon and certainly don't expect much out of the city or developers. Big steps are likely going to have to come from acts of kindness/charity like GKFF incentivising businesses and creating an environment where developers can come in and profit and still be helpful (Like in the TAD.. I can certainly imagine a developer wanting to create a large mixed use urban shopping center/Corporate-HQ south of the Gathering Place!)
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« Reply #1282 on: October 08, 2018, 02:51:32 pm »

I still think this building is where a downtown food hall should be located:

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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #1283 on: October 08, 2018, 05:52:17 pm »

I still think this building is where a downtown food hall should be located:





Gonna need some pinball machines, video games, and Sbarro Pizza...

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« Reply #1284 on: October 09, 2018, 06:52:42 am »

The Box Yard seems like the best concentration of retail so far. They've created a lively place and it could be better when the large coffee/brewery place opens and then Santa Fe Square to really connect to Blue Dome. Seems like an ideal spot for retail businesses right now (unless a new owner wants to ruin what was a perfectly good concept under previous management like Dwelling Spaces!)

The Box Yard seems to change vendors frequently. I went to go support The Water Co and it was gone. Is that by design (rotating?) or are they not getting support?

Also, what large coffee/brewery place?
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« Reply #1285 on: October 09, 2018, 08:02:55 am »

The Box Yard seems to change vendors frequently. I went to go support The Water Co and it was gone. Is that by design (rotating?) or are they not getting support?

Also, what large coffee/brewery place?

I can't speak for the BoxYard in general, but the Water Co never really established a viable business model, at least not enough to sustain a fixed shop.  They are working out of a truck now, and setting up at various events.
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« Reply #1286 on: October 09, 2018, 08:44:09 am »

I can't speak for the BoxYard in general, but the Water Co never really established a viable business model, at least not enough to sustain a fixed shop.  They are working out of a truck now, and setting up at various events.

We seem pretty saturated with retail downtown now. Just need to keep adding more and more downtown residents and more downtown workers and then more retail will be needed.
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« Reply #1287 on: October 09, 2018, 12:12:32 pm »

The Box Yard seems to change vendors frequently. I went to go support The Water Co and it was gone. Is that by design (rotating?) or are they not getting support?

Also, what large coffee/brewery place?

New Era Fine Fermentations will be Tulsa's largest brewpub and also make coffee:
https://www.tulsaworld.com/scene/scenelatest/new-era-fine-fermentations-to-open-tulsa-s-largest-brew/article_32354507-9622-52fb-9d33-b34dd93b71f3.html

Dwelling Spaces also went down (but new owners ruined the previous business model) along with a comic place and couple others. However, the main strip of retailers on ground floor seem to be doing pretty well and place seems to be busy when it should, especially before Christmas last year. Seems the upstairs/out of sight places shut down quicker, but overall it has given a lot of places a chance that might've not been able to afford a typical lease.
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MostSeriousness
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« Reply #1288 on: October 09, 2018, 01:11:44 pm »

Nova Comics is gone? I thought it was open as recently as last week.

http://www.tulsaboxyard.com/stores-2

This is their latest updated version of shops.

http://www.tulsaboxyard.com/stores

Their old listings. Some that are gone, but I remember a Tulsa World article with Nelson or Stowe about how the Boxyard by design was not meant to permanently house locations. Sort of a retail incubator space. Whether that's spin or not, who knows.
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« Reply #1289 on: October 09, 2018, 01:22:38 pm »

Santa Fe Square will reinforce a retail spine that has developed along Frankfort Ave with Fleet Feet, Phat Tire, the Boxyard and soon Fine Fermentation’s in this building due south of the Boxyard:



« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 01:31:05 pm by SXSW » Logged

 
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