A grassroots organization focused on the intelligent and sustainable development, preservation and revitalization of Tulsa.
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
November 15, 2018, 05:17:59 am
Pages: 1 ... 21 22 [23]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Amazon  (Read 22289 times)
TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
Philanthropist
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 957



« Reply #330 on: November 14, 2018, 09:51:55 am »

Again, let's hope it wasn't a total waste; lots of confusion has been interjected of late.  There is a concern that other Fortune 500 corporations will follow Amazon's bid process for a second HQ.  


Exactly. That is potentially a very bad thing for all American cities. Amazon showed the kinds of tax cuts and free real estate cities will throw at huge corporations. Get ready for Walmart HQ2, Halliburton HQ2, Kroger HQ2, Home Depot HQ2 and UPS HQ2... Why shouldn't they all go open secondary HQs to the highest bidders? Find the places that you're already planning on expanding at, maybe inflate the numbers a bit and open up the competition!

I can see many of the largest employers in the US offering an immense amount of jobs and new HQ or threatening to move to see what they can get. Many cities might just copy a large part of the Amazon proposal and maybe change scale/location, but Amazon showed the game has changed as those corporations can cash out, not by moving, but by just opening another co-HQ. If nothing else, their current HQ cities will probably offer tax breaks to remain there.
Logged
swake
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 7661



« Reply #331 on: November 14, 2018, 09:56:41 am »

What I can't figure out is why New York and DC would even participate in this? Both cities have completely overheated job and housing markets. Residents in the areas where Amazon is going are very angry.

What is the benefit to paying billions of dollars while angering your constituents and making their lives worse?
Logged
Conan71
Recovering Republican
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 29127



« Reply #332 on: November 14, 2018, 11:24:29 am »

What I can't figure out is why New York and DC would even participate in this? Both cities have completely overheated job and housing markets. Residents in the areas where Amazon is going are very angry.

What is the benefit to paying billions of dollars while angering your constituents and making their lives worse?

First world problems.  It makes me grateful I moved to third-world 'Merca.  Grin
Logged

"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first” -Ronald Reagan
DTowner
City Father
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1315


« Reply #333 on: November 14, 2018, 12:07:10 pm »



https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/trending/rejected-cactuses-street-graffiti-and-thousands-of-sandwiches-the-tactics/article_1fc325a0-4371-54d9-94a6-1ec7661b1c72.html#tncms-source=block-contextual-fallback

Sounds like the mayor of SA was right. Amazon had its preferred location already and probably just stuck with those 2 pre-selected places.

A lot of people made fun of Bynum for that. Which is better to get lulled in to a sort of scam like every other major city in North America or to save all that time (and shame) like Little Rock did and not even try? Is it "forward thinking" to submit a proposal along with hundreds of other cities that is almost certainly going nowhere or is that delusional?

Maybe we could start by being bold enough to retain medium players like Hilti. https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/hilti-moving-north-american-headquarters-from-tulsa-to-dallas-area/article_28b2ae91-98ae-5a64-9021-0cc6ae3eb46d.html

Tulsa making a bid was never practical from a likelihood of actually landing Amazon HQ2 given our size and lack of ability to put together a benefits/bribe package anywhere near some of the others.  However, I think the exercise was useful for Tulsa’s leaders for a variety of reasons.  1) It got Tulsa thinking big again.  Many of our leaders have been stuck in a rut since the 1980s oil bust of thinking small, being unimaginative, and being afraid of shooting for the moon.  At least Tulsa put its hat in the ring.  2)  The process was beneficial as it helped focus leaders on our strengths, but also our weaknesses compared to competing cities.  Too often we tout our great revitalization while ignoring that we are 10-15 years behind many of our comparable cities in downtown revitalization.  Thinking about those deficiencies and how we can differentiate our self is a good thing.  3) Ideas developed for the Amazon package may be useful in making an offer to another company that is looking for a much smaller, but still impactful, move.
Logged
TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
Philanthropist
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 957



« Reply #334 on: November 14, 2018, 12:53:48 pm »

Tulsa making a bid was never practical from a likelihood of actually landing Amazon HQ2 given our size and lack of ability to put together a benefits/bribe package anywhere near some of the others.  However, I think the exercise was useful for Tulsa’s leaders for a variety of reasons.  1) It got Tulsa thinking big again.  Many of our leaders have been stuck in a rut since the 1980s oil bust of thinking small, being unimaginative, and being afraid of shooting for the moon.  At least Tulsa put its hat in the ring.  2)  The process was beneficial as it helped focus leaders on our strengths, but also our weaknesses compared to competing cities.  Too often we tout our great revitalization while ignoring that we are 10-15 years behind many of our comparable cities in downtown revitalization.  Thinking about those deficiencies and how we can differentiate our self is a good thing.  3) Ideas developed for the Amazon package may be useful in making an offer to another company that is looking for a much smaller, but still impactful, move.

I see your points and like your overall optimism. However, I don't agree our downtown is 10-15 years behind comparable cities. It is ahead or far ahead of many medium-sized cities in nearby states like Shreveport, Birmingham, Wichita, ABQ, Amarillo, Baton Rouge, Springfield, NW-Ark or El Paso. There are definitely ways it could be better, but it has already gone through the revitalization needed to get it up to speed with most mid-sized regional cities. The Arts District is a different world than 10 years ago and the Blue Dome area is another bright spot that keeps getting better. It seems about the right size for our metro now whereas it used to be an embarrassingly desolate ghost town after 5pm.

OKC's downtown is bigger than Tulsa's for sure but isn't as much of a comparable metro as it is much larger with a far larger area included in the city limits. OKC's peers are metros like Memphis, Raleigh, Jacksonville, Richmond, Louisville, NO... OKC is barely keeping up with that pack if at all, and it's downtown is mostly just different, not really better than any of those.


Downtown isn't what Tulsa lacks anymore and it's midtown core has always been a highlight (cohesive nice neighborhoods from south/east of downtown all the way down to south city limits, especially along Harvard.). Education is the big limiting factor for companies and young professionals moving here, with crime being the second biggest issue and it is closely related to the first.
Logged
TheArtist
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 6641



WWW
« Reply #335 on: November 14, 2018, 03:18:32 pm »

Indeed, if our downtown keeps trucking along as it has been it will fill in nicely and we will be able to offer a small but comfortable, cosmopolitan life-style. We will now have a lot of the "nice things" that can make a city attractive, so the next boost is to up our game with the education aspect.

This may require some creative, outside the box, thinking as I don't think the whole solution can or will come from the state so much will be up to us locally as individuals, groups/organizations, through philanthropists, the city, etc.

And the other thing I would like to see is more "support local/buy local" initiatives.  Help those who are already in the game here working away at it, and those outside seeing that positive help will be all the more intrigued with the possibility of moving here and giving it a go.   

Lets start making improvements to education and show that we are super supportive of entrepreneurship. The new GKF thing inviting entrepreneurs to live here and things like the Mother Road Market are good starts.

Often it appears that outside businesses get more attention and "love" trying to get them to move into town (REI, Amazon, etc.), versus those who are already here. 

I have really big dreams for DECOPOLIS.  I want to have a whole street of magical shops with Art Deco storefronts leading up to an Art Deco City/Castle.  A Route 66 area, a "Mesmer Island" tiki/pirate area, I want to have rides, I want to have my own characters and stories, cartoons and movies, our own products, a production studio, hire hundreds of artists, etc. I want to build that Tulsa Art Deco museum as part of it all. In essence I want to be the "Walt Disney" of Tulsa.  And would love to get just some of the attention, even just a tiny amount lol, a tweet from the Mayor perhaps saying "Shop at DECOPOLIS! this Christmas!" or something lol. I couldn't dream of buying the kind of coverage REI and Amazon have gotten in the news here, TV, Radio, chatrooms like this, Facebook, etc.  Give the little guys who are already here that want to grow, that are unique and have promise a teentsy bit of the attention and watch us thrive and grow, and reach our dreams for a better city together.

Logged

"When you only have two pennies left in the world, buy a loaf of bread with one, and a lily with the other."-Chinese proverb. "Arts a staple. Like bread or wine or a warm coat in winter. Those who think it is a luxury have only a fragment of a mind. Mans spirit grows hungry for art in the same way h
Laramie
Civic Leader
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 337



« Reply #336 on: November 14, 2018, 03:19:58 pm »

IMO Tulsa's downtown is ahead of many cities of its size or larger like Jacksonville, Memphis, Omaha & Wichita.  You will see more job growth if you continue to attract new industry, businesses and companies.

Now sure about the growth in Tulsa's housing market; you seem to follow a pattern similar to that of OKC.  New downtown mixed use office & residential will follow.  There are some pockets in your core primed for development/redevelopment. Companies are evaluating mid-size cities for expansion/relocation because the big mega markets like Dallas, Houston, Seattle, Atlanta & Baltimore doesn't possess the room for growth without moving to the suburbs--housing & the cost of doing business in those cities continue to soar.

Your economy has diversified of late; you won't see the stagnant growth experienced in the late 70s & 80s that hit most of Oklahoma.

Tulsa has the right density (2,048/sq mi); it's not overcrowded, more walk-ability than OKC.  Tulsa's in a position to manage its growth.  Once the energy sector rebounds; you'll experience more moderate growth.  Austin is growing so fast they can't keep up with the infrastructure necessary to handle their enormous influx of growth.
Logged

“Think for yourself and let others enjoy the privilege of doing so too.” ― Voltaire
DTowner
City Father
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1315


« Reply #337 on: November 14, 2018, 03:36:13 pm »

I see your points and like your overall optimism. However, I don't agree our downtown is 10-15 years behind comparable cities. It is ahead or far ahead of many medium-sized cities in nearby states like Shreveport, Birmingham, Wichita, ABQ, Amarillo, Baton Rouge, Springfield, NW-Ark or El Paso. There are definitely ways it could be better, but it has already gone through the revitalization needed to get it up to speed with most mid-sized regional cities. The Arts District is a different world than 10 years ago and the Blue Dome area is another bright spot that keeps getting better. It seems about the right size for our metro now whereas it used to be an embarrassingly desolate ghost town after 5pm.

OKC's downtown is bigger than Tulsa's for sure but isn't as much of a comparable metro as it is much larger with a far larger area included in the city limits. OKC's peers are metros like Memphis, Raleigh, Jacksonville, Richmond, Louisville, NO... OKC is barely keeping up with that pack if at all, and it's downtown is mostly just different, not really better than any of those.


Downtown isn't what Tulsa lacks anymore and it's midtown core has always been a highlight (cohesive nice neighborhoods from south/east of downtown all the way down to south city limits, especially along Harvard.). Education is the big limiting factor for companies and young professionals moving here, with crime being the second biggest issue and it is closely related to the first.

I would argue we started at least 10 years behind OKC in revitalization and we are still 10 years behind OKC.  I think you can even make an argument that OKC is pulling even further away from Tulsa.  If we believe Tulsa’s peer cities are Wichita, Springfield and NW Arkansas, then we have really set our sights low.  My point is that while Tulsa was revitalizing its downtown, so was everyone else.  A downtown arena and/or baseball stadium, arts district, and housing are pretty much being done by every moderately interesting city.  Those features in Tulsa are really nice, but a slightly higher quality level of those amenities is not much differentiation on which to hang your hat.  In the end, it is great to have all of these things to enjoy, and I do, but I think the real measure of success is attracting new businesses and young professionals in significant numbers.  By that measure we are at best keeping pace with our competitors, but not gaining ground.  We need to think and act much bigger and bolder to change that equation.

Logged
TulsaGuy
Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 46


« Reply #338 on: November 14, 2018, 03:51:25 pm »

Does anyone know where to find unbiased demographic numbers such as populations, migration movements, salaried professionals growth, downtown housing units, real estate class absorption etc?  I realize those are a lot of different stats but was wondering a few places I could do some research. 
Logged
Hoss
I'm a Daft Punk
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 11194


I might be moving to Montana soon...


WWW
« Reply #339 on: November 14, 2018, 04:44:41 pm »

Does anyone know where to find unbiased demographic numbers such as populations, migration movements, salaried professionals growth, downtown housing units, real estate class absorption etc?  I realize those are a lot of different stats but was wondering a few places I could do some research. 

Not without shelling out some money for it.  Especially the outliers.  Some of those might be had at the US Census site, but salaried professionals growth I don't know.
]
Logged

Libertarianism is a system of beliefs for people who think adolescence is the epitome of human achievement.

Global warming isn't real because it was cold today.  Also great news: world famine is over because I just ate - Stephen Colbert.

Somebody find Guido an ambulance to chase...
TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
Philanthropist
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 957



« Reply #340 on: November 14, 2018, 04:58:53 pm »

I would argue we started at least 10 years behind OKC in revitalization and we are still 10 years behind OKC.  I think you can even make an argument that OKC is pulling even further away from Tulsa.  If we believe Tulsa’s peer cities are Wichita, Springfield and NW Arkansas, then we have really set our sights low.  My point is that while Tulsa was revitalizing its downtown, so was everyone else.  A downtown arena and/or baseball stadium, arts district, and housing are pretty much being done by every moderately interesting city.  Those features in Tulsa are really nice, but a slightly higher quality level of those amenities is not much differentiation on which to hang your hat.  In the end, it is great to have all of these things to enjoy, and I do, but I think the real measure of success is attracting new businesses and young professionals in significant numbers.  By that measure we are at best keeping pace with our competitors, but not gaining ground.  We need to think and act much bigger and bolder to change that equation.




OKC's downtown is not 10 years ahead of Tulsa. It's a much larger metro and it is the state capital so that comparison isn't even valid. Tulsa's has tons of things OKC's doesn't like the many museums and a better concentration of local places.

Tulsa should be compared to more similar sized metros. There's nothing wrong with that. You think Muskogee will ever realistically compete with Dallas? What good would that comparison even be? Tulsa will likely never have as large a downtown as OKC. In terms of how big and developed it should be for the metro, Tulsa's is right in line with OKC's. I've spent a lot of time in both downtowns and a lot of time looking into the numbers and projects. They both have a lot of planned work and newer developments. OKC has more housing and condos you can buy and mass-appeal type places. Tulsa has more local places and a bit more of a music/art scene.

Logged
TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
Philanthropist
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 957



« Reply #341 on: November 14, 2018, 05:00:18 pm »

Just as expected...

Quote
JPMorgan Chase’s chief executive, Jamie Dimon, said he would watch to see which city won the beauty contest and immediately call up those lawmakers and demand the same perks. Other companies are lining up to do the same.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/13/opinion/amazon-hq2-winner.html

https://www.wsj.com/articles/in-their-push-to-lure-amazon-cities-face-unintended-demands-1521115200

Logged
heironymouspasparagus
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 12255



« Reply #342 on: November 14, 2018, 07:56:37 pm »

I would argue we started at least 10 years behind OKC in revitalization and we are still 10 years behind OKC.  I think you can even make an argument that OKC is pulling even further away from Tulsa.  If we believe Tulsa’s peer cities are Wichita, Springfield and NW Arkansas, then we have really set our sights low.  My point is that while Tulsa was revitalizing its downtown, so was everyone else.  A downtown arena and/or baseball stadium, arts district, and housing are pretty much being done by every moderately interesting city.  Those features in Tulsa are really nice, but a slightly higher quality level of those amenities is not much differentiation on which to hang your hat.  In the end, it is great to have all of these things to enjoy, and I do, but I think the real measure of success is attracting new businesses and young professionals in significant numbers.  By that measure we are at best keeping pace with our competitors, but not gaining ground.  We need to think and act much bigger and bolder to change that equation.




And the whole key to that is companies with better, higher paying jobs.  Like Varian that I mentioned before.  Lots of engineering and LOTS of extremely technical manufacturing/production people.  Their production people are paid almost on par with the technical people due to the requirements of the jobs.


And they will never come to Tulsa for the reasons that people there have talked to me about - not my words...theirs!  Catch 22 and we can't get there from here.  At least not in a foreseeable future time frame.

As a collective whole in this state, we 'love' the view from the rose colored glasses.  And then we keep doing the same ole "view from the brown colored glasses" actions like cutting education, ignoring infrastructure, etc...all the things we have discussed to death on this board. 


Prime example - we just 'lost' one of the significant contributors here.  Conan.  Went to New Mexico to start a B&B.  Whatever their internal motivations, it still is a fact that Oklahoma doesn't have that 'exotic' ambience' thing going where they felt they could make a go of it here.  Another big loss for the state.

Not in the foreseeable future - like the remaining lifetimes of probably half or more of the people here.  Look at what "big draws" are around the country - other than the natural things that people do.  They pretty much always take a long time before they become "overnight successes".  We would have to start one tomorrow morning by about 9:15 am to have a big draw with a substantial effect/draw 15-20 years from now.

Examples provided by request...

Logged

"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

I don’t share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.
swake
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 7661



« Reply #343 on: November 14, 2018, 07:58:36 pm »

Amazon was given an average of $48,000 per job by northern VA and NYC.

Compare that to the Kaiser foundation giving $10,000 per job for people to move their job here.

Logged
Pages: 1 ... 21 22 [23]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

 
  Hosted by TulsaConnect and Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
 

Mission

 

"TulsaNow's Mission is to help Tulsa become the most vibrant, diverse, sustainable and prosperous city of our size. We achieve this by focusing on the development of Tulsa's distinctive identity and economic growth around a dynamic, urban core, complemented by a constellation of livable, thriving communities."
more...

 

Contact

 

2210 S Main St.
Tulsa, OK 74114
(918) 409-2669
info@tulsanow.org