River development and new sources of city revenue

[SXSW]

Someone needs to spend real money making a large deck toward the water.

Riverwalk name implies a walk while experiencing the river. That is what makes the east bank better. It is fixable and could be done by the new owners.

The Creeks have the money to actually do something like this.  I have my fingers crossed they can eventually turn it around.  They have stated before they want a ferry boat connection between Riverwalk, the aquarium and the casino/hotel which could be a decent attraction and like nothing else we currently have in Tulsa.

[Conan71]

Riding over the pedestrian bridge this weekend, it would appear the dam repairs are complete and Zink Lake is holding water.  I still have never seen any sort of release from RPA that the project has been completed.

[Vision 2025]

Riding over the pedestrian bridge this weekend, it would appear the dam repairs are complete and Zink Lake is holding water.  I still have never seen any sort of release from RPA that the project has been completed.

Not sure there...

[swake]

The Creeks have the money to actually do something like this.  I have my fingers crossed they can eventually turn it around.  They have stated before they want a ferry boat connection between Riverwalk, the aquarium and the casino/hotel which could be a decent attraction and like nothing else we currently have in Tulsa.

They are looking to transform it into an outlet mall, which is probably a pretty good use.

[Stone]

I say turn that area into an outlet mall. I garantee you people would flock to the RW if it had a gap, coach, banana republic, etc. etc. Sprinkle in a few good restuarants/ bars and I'm talking gold Jerry gold!

I don't exaclty know the hold up on this. It's been nearly two years since the Creeks took over.

[heironymouspasparagus]

It was more than that that doomed it. It was that you weren't really on the river. You are kinda high above it on a bank covered in vegetation. They just built sidewalks and didn't stabilize the edge and erosion makes it a little dangerous. Someone needs to spend real money making a large deck toward the water.

Riverwalk name implies a walk while experiencing the river. That is what makes the east bank better. It is fixable and could be done by the new owners.

We have had the opportunity to go over there a couple of times in the last month just to look around a little.  We have always liked the place and went to several of the places when they were still there - our business is never going to be enough to keep someone in business.  It still puzzles me as to why none of those little shops/restaurants was able to survive...??  Especially when you have Los Cabos doing so well...!!  What's the deal with that??  It appears as though we want to have the "look/feel" of big town Austin, Dallas, St. Louis, etc but really don't have the overall taste to pull it off!   Los Cabos is better than Taco Bueno, but not a really great Mexican food restaurant at all. 

Deck - isn't that kind of what that amphitheater up north was supposed to do?  Platform for bands/entertainment, but also a kind of "deck" feel??

Riverwalk name...yeah, it kinda does!  We enjoy walking the main patio and the path a few feet further east out there, especially at night!!  The water in the river is nice, but we are mainly looking at the lights across that eastern vista.

Fixable....the whole west bank has those kind of problems and I'm betting a 'seawall' from Keystone to Bixby on both sides would be necessary but not sufficient to cure the erosion issues.  Would still have to absolutely guarantee there would be no "flood level" discharges coming out of Keystone - ever!


I see a big open area at 37th and Elwood that is totally wasted space now....I think it is called West Bank Soccer Complex right now...?  Shops, housing and entertainment could go there!!

[AngieB]

I see a big open area at 37th and Elwood that is totally wasted space now....I think it is called West Bank Soccer Complex right now...?  Shops, housing and entertainment could go there!!

That area is surrounded by refineries, trucking companies and dinky houses. I would love to see development, but I think the only way it would ever become anything other than what it is now is if we got a 41st street bridge that truly connected east with west and didn't bypass it.

And honestly, it's not wasted space. It does get a lot of soccer use. We have ridden through there many times when several games were going on and the parking lot was packed.

[heironymouspasparagus]

That area is surrounded by refineries, trucking companies and dinky houses. I would love to see development, but I think the only way it would ever become anything other than what it is now is if we got a 41st street bridge that truly connected east with west and didn't bypass it.

And honestly, it's not wasted space. It does get a lot of soccer use. We have ridden through there many times when several games were going on and the parking lot was packed.

Yeah... I know... I think it is a good use of the space - just wanted to tweak the soccer-ista's a tiny bit!  You know how I can be....


On a little more serious note - we really don't have square footage for the 'grand vision' development stuff being fantasized about in recent years - unless we start tearing out neighborhoods on the east side of river!  Personally, I think that is a horrible idea - those neighborhoods are the character of Riverside Drive.  Going south to where they disappear and commercial development has set in....well, it isn't pretty.  That's what I don't see as "growth and livability"....  More Starbuck's and Los Cabos only leads to the "casino advertisement style life" - where all the customers of a casino are the beautiful people, always smiling, having fun.... and then when you go into a casino, look around and see the reality....

The "casino advertisement style life"  (CASL??) is shallow, mind-numbing inanity that brings NO value to any area.  Actually, that pretty much applies to the casino lifestyle - leaving the advertisement part out!!

[Conan71]

We have had the opportunity to go over there a couple of times in the last month just to look around a little.  We have always liked the place and went to several of the places when they were still there - our business is never going to be enough to keep someone in business.  It still puzzles me as to why none of those little shops/restaurants was able to survive...??  Especially when you have Los Cabos doing so well...!!  What's the deal with that??  It appears as though we want to have the "look/feel" of big town Austin, Dallas, St. Louis, etc but really don't have the overall taste to pull it off!   Los Cabos is better than Taco Bueno, but not a really great Mexican food restaurant at all.  

Deck - isn't that kind of what that amphitheater up north was supposed to do?  Platform for bands/entertainment, but also a kind of "deck" feel??

Riverwalk name...yeah, it kinda does!  We enjoy walking the main patio and the path a few feet further east out there, especially at night!!  The water in the river is nice, but we are mainly looking at the lights across that eastern vista.

Fixable....the whole west bank has those kind of problems and I'm betting a 'seawall' from Keystone to Bixby on both sides would be necessary but not sufficient to cure the erosion issues.  Would still have to absolutely guarantee there would be no "flood level" discharges coming out of Keystone - ever!


I see a big open area at 37th and Elwood that is totally wasted space now....I think it is called West Bank Soccer Complex right now...?  Shops, housing and entertainment could go there!!

The biggest problem the developer faced with this was no retail anchor(s).  The only non food or bar tenants were gift shops and high end furniture, IIRC.  Gift shops are about as risky a proposition as restaurants.  I have no idea what else is in there, I guess I should pedal through next time I ride out that way.

/edit:  Not much to see, apparently:

RIVERWALK CROSSING:

Benefit Informatics 918.491.3600
Los Cabos 918.298.2226
Marble Creamery 918.299.7907
Pinot's Palette 918.518.5433
Riverwalk Apartments 918.209.4000
Riverwalk Crossing 844.663.3473
Riverwalk Dental Spa 918.392.7654
Riverwalk Movies no phone
The Cigar Box 918.299.7110
The Melting Pot 918.299.8000

[rebound]

Deck - isn't that kind of what that amphitheater up north was supposed to do?  Platform for bands/entertainment, but also a kind of "deck" feel??

You (we) can't compare the amphitheater with the kind of deck suggested for RiverWalk, or any restaurant on the river.   The amphitheater was designed as an "event space", much larger in scope than the smaller decks suggested for the various river-front establishments.  Look at the deck at Blue Rose, for example.  Without that deck, it would just be near the river, not on it.  Same thing for Los Cabos, it darn sure isn't the food that would get me there, but sitting outside on the deck listening to some music is pretty cool.  (Although given the logistics of getting that far down there, it's been a couple of years since I've been there.)

Side note on Las Cabos and decks and eating outside.  I'm no fan of their food either, but the one up here in Owasso has a small outside patio where they have live music sometimes.  Really it's just a small area with no view, but there isn't another place like it in Owasso (outside, with live music), so it is packed any time they have music.   It's all relative, and a place doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to offer something the others don't. 

[AquaMan]

  Really it's just a small area with no view, but there isn't another place like it in Owasso (outside, with live music), so it is packed any time they have music.   It's all relative, and a place doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to offer something the others don't. 

Normally I would agree with you but the Riverwalk was offering something nothing else in the city had. A riverfront shopping center. Soon the east side of the river by the bridge offered something similar but with almost no river view. Its still there and active, RW is pretty much dead.

IMO what happened to RW was poor management of a good idea. IIRC the builder/developer insisted on managing the center himself. Different skill sets. The rents were high, the spin was awesome (we're the Utica Square of the south, the low water dam will open in two months, we have huge tenants interested, we're expanding, we have more capital! etc, etc.), they never secured a major tenant because those type businesses smelled a river rat, the music was sucky, then the financial meltdown. I loved walking the place but often noticed people spreading out blankets and eating Sonic with high end restaurants nearby. They probably believed a lot of their own hype and overestimated their demographic.

If I taught retail development in college this would be a great example of how to f-up a good idea.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Normally I would agree with you but the Riverwalk was offering something nothing else in the city had. A riverfront shopping center. Soon the east side of the river by the bridge offered something similar but with almost no river view. Its still there and active, RW is pretty much dead.

IMO what happened to RW was poor management of a good idea. IIRC the builder/developer insisted on managing the center himself. Different skill sets. The rents were high, the spin was awesome (we're the Utica Square of the south, the low water dam will open in two months, we have huge tenants interested, we're expanding, we have more capital! etc, etc.), they never secured a major tenant because those type businesses smelled a river rat, the music was sucky, then the financial meltdown. I loved walking the place but often noticed people spreading out blankets and eating Sonic with high end restaurants nearby. They probably believed a lot of their own hype and overestimated their demographic.

If I taught retail development in college this would be a great example of how to f-up a good idea.

ABSOLUTELY!!  (You just made my case, by the way...no amount of water in the river would have helped that...)

Los Cabos has found the secret that locks in the flavor, in spite of rather pedestrian food...very edible, just not memorable/exceptional.  That's what it takes!  Someone in that organization is brilliant!  The one in BA, sitting on the pond is always packed, too.

We still enjoy walking around RW....just wish there was a shop or two to look at.... 

[SXSW]

Outlet shops could definitely work there.  Add a few more restaurants back into the mix with outdoor seating.  Expand the actual Riverwalk closer to the river edge with a concrete sea wall to prevent erosion.  Add a dock area by the amphitheater for the ferry boat across the river and that could turn things around.  It is too bad the aquarium is not closer as it sees a steady stream of visitors.  Maybe a future phase could expand the Riverwalk and sea wall further south past Waterfront Grille to the aquarium and the boat could stop there as well. 

[Vision 2025]

I see a big open area at 37th and Elwood that is totally wasted space now....I think it is called West Bank Soccer Complex right now...?  Shops, housing and entertainment could go there!!

I like the thinking, unfortunately that site is a former demolition land fill.

[Conan71]

I like the thinking, unfortunately that site is a former demolition land fill.

From our downtown treasures of yesteryear?